September Wrasslin |OT| The one night a year when every table will be on the line

FlammableD said:
The heel characters shouldn't do cool moves argument makes no sense, and never has from a kayfabe standpoint.
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It's only ever about how it's presented. I don't see why Rollins can't do flashy moves if you just have commentary go on about how Rollins is a cocky show-off, arrogantly doing his crazy moves just because he can and his opponent can't.

But they never sell it like that.
 
Ithil said:
HHH and Steph flipping from face to heel in the same segment is absurd. They have no consistency, and thus none of their heel stuff gets any investment because they pretty much do it all while winking and saying "we're only pretending to be bad guys".

They claim RAW is an "action adventure soap opera". Yet they appear to have no consistent rule for whether RAW is in any sort of kayfabe or not. Is RAW a story, or is it half a story that constantly breaks to go "WWE is great and all the heels are actually nice people"?

What's the point in doing any heel stuff if it's immediately followed by the same heel breaking character and telling you they're just pretending? Should the villains of all TV shows stop mid-episode and lecture you about their charity work as actors?

It's all well and good to promote your brand with philanthropy as marketing, but if your face of that is going be Stephanie, then maybe Stephanie shouldn't be playing a heel authority figure on the TV show.



The opening promo of RAW was about their charity for kids with cancer. How can I boo two people advocating donations for cancer research? Am I even supposed to boo them? They act like heels later in the show, but they're total babyfaces in the first segment.
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Their established characters are they do what is best for business, which gives them the freedom to float back and forth depending on the story and segment. They're really above true heel or face labels except when they need to be, much like Brock and Taker. They back Rollins because Rollins is a champion who they can control, which they feel is best for business. Stephanie backs the Divas Revolution because it is best for business. They book Seth in matches against Cena and Sting because, while having a champion they control is best for business, they can't deny putting on money matches because...it is best for business.

Their character motivations have been explained basically every week for 2 years now. Everything they do is consistent with the characters they've portrayed.
 
Vince McMahon said:
I can't enjoy the Cosby Show at all anymore. It sucks, because I can't even enjoy Theo and Cockroach's antics, or Rudy being a little shitheaded child, or Claire being Claire

Or Denise being Denise.......
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There's a few episodes that would stick out to me, but other than that, I could still check it out. That one where he's giving the kids pony rides though... too close to your dick, heathcliff.
 
Ithil said:
It's only ever about how it's presented. I don't see why Rollins can't do flashy moves if you just have commentary go on about how Rollins is a cocky show-off, arrogantly doing his crazy moves just because he can and his opponent can't.

But they never sell it like that.
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OK, if a move is effective, why would a heel not do it? They're out to win a match just as much as the face, if not more depending on the kind of heel they are (e.g. "I only care about the money"). Why do they have to be cocky to try and win?
 
The issue a lot of people have with understanding Raw is that it's not a wrestling show, it's a show about a wrestling show. Sort of like how 30 Rock was about running a sketch comedy show, not the sketch comedy show itself. Triple H and Stephanie are the protagonists or the Alec Baldwin/Tina Fey of the show and we're watching them put this all together.
 
mtsmylie said:
What if someone made a supercut of The Cosby Show with BIll Cosby excised? That might be an interesting (and short) experiment.
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:(

Bootaaay said:
I guess I should work on attaining an encyclopedic knowledge of scumbags in professional wrestling so I don't make any future faux pas. Also, I saw a minion.

W90H2C4.gif
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All this does is bring more Minions. Who doesn't love Zandig?
 
2 things

1. Apollo Crews is interesting to me. He combines various elements in ways I haven't seen before and I'd like to see what he can do.

2. I checked out some Wrestlemania 1 and skipped through a few 80's and early 90's matches. Man, most of these wrestlers look really saggy and barely do anything in their matches. I think the stuff being put out by WWE these days is a lot better ring wise.
 
real_slime said:
2. I checked out some Wrestlemania 1 and skipped through a few 80's and early 90's matches. Man, most of these wrestlers look really saggy and barely do anything in their matches. I think the stuff being put out by WWE these days is a lot better ring wise.
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You could skip through matches of any era and say that. It depends on the matches and who's in them.
 
FlammableD said:
OK, if a move is effective, why would a heel not do it? They're out to win a match just as much as the face, if not more depending on the kind of heel they are (e.g. "I only care about the money"). Why do they have to be cocky to try and win?
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The issue at least that I have with Rollins flippy floppy moves is that he winds the crowd up doing them. Especially the dive sequence, where he plays to the crowd each dive and then soaks in their cheers. He's trying to pop them. And they do. And he enjoys it like a face. Acts like a face. Until the end of his match, when he reverts back to cheap slimy cheating heel.
 
Perspicacity said:
Look there is nothing wrong with enjoying problematic media, like even progressive pro wrestling is still backwards as fuck. It is just important to be aware of the affects it has on you and on society as a whole.

As for people who are pieces of shit in real life, that can be a lot more nuanced. It should make you not want to watch Cosby material because that to me seems pretty irreconcilable. For someone like Hogan, I've always thought he was a piece of shit and a racist so it doesn't change my feelings.
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bill cosby raped countless women over a period of decades and made jokes about it this year. he's a criminal and must be some kind of psychopath. hulk hogan is a sad old man who said some shit millions of americans say on a daily basis. it isn't comparable and i don't know why people invite the comparison.
 
brisk tacos said:
Their established characters are they do what is best for business, which gives them the freedom to float back and forth depending on the story and segment. They're really above true heel or face labels except when they need to be, much like Brock and Taker. They back Rollins because Rollins is a champion who they can control, which they feel is best for business. Stephanie backs the Divas Revolution because it is best for business. They book Seth in matches against Cena and Sting because, while having a champion they control is best for business, they can't deny putting on money matches because...it is best for business.

Their character motivations have been explained basically every week for 2 years now. Everything they do is consistent with the characters they've portrayed.
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No its fucking stupid and bad. When I watch a wrestling show I don't want to have an internal debate about how I should react to supposed heel characters plugging their charity thing. HHH and Steph were brought back to the show because a father nearly got paralyzed or even killed.

Shades of grey can fuck right off when its done with the two most stale characters on the show who are given a hell of a lot of heel heat for the audience to latch on to. You can't have them come out and say "YAY OUR CHARITY IS GREAT" and expect the audience to go "yes, your charity is great Mr and Mrs. Heel Authority figure, oh look now you are trying to screw babyface X over".

Its like Rollins going for dive number 34 in a match or whatever yuou think he does.
 
brisk tacos said:
Their established characters are they do what is best for business, which gives them the freedom to float back and forth depending on the story and segment. They're really above true heel or face labels except when they need to be, much like Brock and Taker. They back Rollins because Rollins is a champion who they can control, which they feel is best for business. Stephanie backs the Divas Revolution because it is best for business. They book Seth in matches against Cena and Sting because, while having a champion they control is best for business, they can't deny putting on money matches because...it is best for business.

Their character motivations have been explained basically every week for 2 years now. Everything they do is consistent with the characters they've portrayed.
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Except their "best for business" line was supposed to be a heel line, where they would hold down the babyface people wanted (Bryan) in favour of their own corporate champion (Orton). It was supposed to be a meta angle playing off of WWE's real preferences for what stars are "supposed" to look like. They were absolutely meant to be heels, constantly screwing over the faces and propping up their stable members.

Somewhere after WM 30, they started to forget whether they were meant to be heels or not and started hovering back and forth. Yet they are still the Authority, backing the heel WWE champion, only they keep switching nonsensically between being heel and face, usually on the same show. Stephanie is a heel while with Seth, then switches to being a face with the Divas revolution.

I mean, remember when they did everything to make Rollins champion (including cheating to help him win MITB) and wanted Brock gone in favour of Rollins, doing all they can to stack the deck for Rollins? Then suddenly a few months later they themselves bring Brock back to trounce Rollins, their own guy, apparently to "test" Rollins or something. There's no consistent motivation, they are blank slates for whatever the story is supposed to be. So how can anyone give a shit about what they do, or get invested?
 
brisk tacos said:
The issue at least that I have with Rollins flippy floppy moves is that he winds the crowd up doing them. Especially the dive sequence, where he plays to the crowd each dive and then soaks in their cheers. He's trying to pop them. And they do. And he enjoys it like a face. Acts like a face. Until the end of his match, when he reverts back to cheap slimy cheating heel.
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Yes, precisely this. He's not playing the role of arrogant, cocky heel when he does these moves. He wants to get the crowd excited, crowd cheering. For him. He's the heel. They're not supposed to cheer him. They should be booing him. He should be making them boo him.

Just as in any sport, the highest league will eventually have influences from the lower levels because people toiling away down there make their way to the top. What we're seeing in WWE now is the effects of spotfests in ROH and the like, where "this is awesome!" and loud applause and dualing fan chants are the goal of some competitors.

Either waltz around after an exciting high-flying move that crowds will love for 15 seconds like you're king shit so that they hate you again, or stop doing the fucking moves.

EDIT: Ziggler was the worst with this in the past few years.
 
brisk tacos said:
The issue at least that I have with Rollins flippy floppy moves is that he winds the crowd up doing them. Especially the dive sequence, where he plays to the crowd each dive and then soaks in their cheers. He's trying to pop them. And they do. And he enjoys it like a face. Acts like a face. Until the end of his match, when he reverts back to cheap slimy cheating heel.
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Again, the only PPV match where he was truly wrestling as a face was Summerslam so you can also fuck right off with that.
 
Bootaaay said:
I guess I should work on attaining an encyclopedic knowledge of scumbags in professional wrestling so I don't make any future faux pas. Also, I saw a minion.

W90H2C4.gif
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Look at this charismatic fucker. Gif cracks me up every time I see it.

Zandig vs. Hero, right now. Fuck Gage vs. Gulak for the soul of CZW. Zandig vs. Gulak. Zandig vs. Kikutaro or Ebessan would be money. Zandig vs. CIMA for most influential indie wrestler of that generation.
 
SomewhatGroovy said:
slime, the original line of questioning was if we can separate the man from the entertainer. The thought is that it is on a case by case basis by using examples to highlight the point, not to draw apple to apple comparisons. We are making the same point you are.
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i confess i was responding to people i've seen act like the two cases are equivalent elsewhere rather than reading the last couple pages before posting. sometimes i just shoot my mouth off.
 
And that Summerslam match was against Cena who has been directed to do MOVEZ matches with zero storytelling since after Extreme Rules.
 
klonere said:
Again, the only PPV match where he was truly wrestling as a face was Summerslam so you can also fuck right off with that.
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I will not. Kevin Owens (on the main roster) wrestles like that as well. So did Cesaro when a heel. It's an indie thing, not specific to Rollins. Rollins wrestled exactly the same when he was part of Shield, but he didn't play it up to the crowd. When he did his dives and flying stuff, they were quick, sudden attacks. Now, as the top heel, he does the same things but for cheers. It's weird.
 
klonere said:
And that Summerslam match was against Cena who has been directed to do MOVEZ matches with zero storytelling since after Extreme Rules.
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Directed?

Mofucka, that's Cena's call ever since he won the US title

He's in his mid life crisis 'try everything, get a motorcycle and shit' mode
 
The Authority aren't the main villains right now, so them flip-flopping doesn't really matter. They were consistent when it counted, leading up to Wrestlemania 30. Their whole character is that they are basically bad guys but who mainly want to make money and are therefore not above pandering. Them promoting their charity work is fine because someone giving money to charity doesn't necessarily not make them crummy in other spheres of life.

WWE has a real problem with heel/face permeability, but The Authority actually make sense as characters who would cross that line as necessary.
 
brisk tacos said:
I will not. Kevin Owens (on the main roster) wrestles like that as well. So did Cesaro when a heel. It's an indie thing, not specific to Rollins. Rollins wrestled exactly the same when he was part of Shield, but he didn't play it up to the crowd. When he did his dives and flying stuff, they were quick, sudden attacks. Now, as the top heel, he does the same things but for cheers. It's weird.
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I mean I went back and watched all the PPV matches Rollins was in and counted out the dives and face style moves a while back and it just wasn't there.

Owens I won't fight you on as his Cena series I think will be looked back as a bad precedent and that nothing Cesaro match (why did they leave the storytelling with the ribs until a meaningless Raw rematch anyway?) His match vs Sami in NXT was great story though! I wonder why that is.....
 
Night of Champions could be an all right show. New Day V Dudleyz, Owens has a title feud, Seth v Cena will be good, Seth v Sting should have some entertainment value, women's match will hopefully move on this story.

If they'd moved their ass on this paige/sasha feud they could've gone in there for no1 contender or something.
 
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
The Authority aren't the main villains right now, so them flip-flopping doesn't really matter. They were consistent when it counted, leading up to Wrestlemania 30. Their whole character is that they are basically bad guys but who mainly want to make money and are therefore not above pandering. Them promoting their charity work is fine because someone giving money to charity doesn't necessarily not make them crummy in other spheres of life.

WWE has a real problem with heel/face permeability, but The Authority actually make sense as characters who would cross that line as necessary.
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Maybe it's because I don't watch raw, but who are the main villains?
 
I hope Owens can survive the tepid midcard style of no story until Zayn gets back into it.
 
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
The Authority aren't the main villains right now, so them flip-flopping doesn't really matter. They were consistent when it counted, leading up to Wrestlemania 30. Their whole character is that they are basically bad guys but who mainly want to make money and are therefore not above pandering. Them promoting their charity work is fine because someone giving money to charity doesn't necessarily not make them crummy in other spheres of life.

WWE has a real problem with heel/face permeability, but The Authority actually make sense as characters who would cross that line as necessary.
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Wait if they aren't the main villans then who is? Its certainly not Rollins who is subservient to the Authority, like he's their J&J. Its not Bray because when's the last time he was presented as a credible threat? It's certainly not Owens.

In a roster with two singularly strong characters, one of which is part time and the other has been around for a decade plus, we don't need an act that takes up so much airtime and are made out to be the most important people on the show to be so ambiguous
 
real_slime said:
Night of Champions could be an all right show. New Day V Dudleyz, Owens has a title feud, Seth v Cena will be good, Seth v Sting should have some entertainment value, women's match will hopefully move on this story.

If they'd moved their ass on this paige/sasha feud they could've gone in there for no1 contender or something.
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If sting becomes champ then it will be a top teir show.
 
If they're not gonna give Stang the belt, they could at least give it to Sheamus. The Seth experiment has failed completely, and at this point the only way you can go any further downhill is to stick with it. Fucking Wrestlezone is regularly making fun of the ratings disaster they're going through while trying to justify the failure, you gotta make a change.
 
On behalf of Wrasslegaf, I think it's time to put the belt on Reigns. You all know it's a long time coming and he deserves a piece of the strap. Anything but Seth "I'm killing myself for the business because I'm not drawing" Rollins.
 
Heroman said:
Brock wrestle like 3 as champ, they could do the same for sting to.
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To WWE, Sting isn't anywhere close to the level of BROCK LESNAR THE HIGHEST PAID ACT IN COMPANY HISTORY. Sting beat the champion on Raw, so he isn't winning on the PPV. If Sheamus is cashing in to win the title on either Raw or NOC, then maybe Sting gets it and whatever the next PPV is, we get Seth vs. Sting for a title shot, which Seth wins.
 
RP912 said:
On behalf of Wrasslegaf, I think it's time to put the belt on Reigns. You all know it's a long time coming and he deserves a piece of the strap. Anything but Seth "I'm killing myself for the business because I'm not drawing" Rollins.
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If this is what they are doing with Rollins as Champ I cannot imagine the trainwreck that would be Reigns as champ.

Although its unfair to call Seth a "champion" because he's hardly ever presented as such. We spent 3 weeks on a fucKING statue. 3 WEEKS.

Fire all the writers.
 
Uh, Rollins is absolutely the main villain of the show right now. The main villain of a show doesn't have to not be subservient to anyone else. He antagonizes everyone, holds the most prestigious title hostage through his cheating, and dominates the air time ranting arrogantly during to his being favored by the power figures.

He's not a GOOD main villain, but he is absolutely the main villain. Let's not be obtuse, folks.
 
JPeeples83 said:
To WWE, Sting isn't anywhere close to the level of BROCK LESNAR THE HIGHEST PAID ACT IN COMPANY HISTORY. Sting beat the champion on Raw, so he isn't winning on the PPV. If Sheamus is cashing in to win the title on either Raw or NOC, then maybe Sting gets it and whatever the next PPV is, we get Seth vs. Sting for a title shot, which Seth wins.
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Sting is absolutely on same level as Brock, the reason why people even care about this ppv is because of sting.
 
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