Is this guy who played Smash for a year the most dominant eSports player in history?

pizzacat

Banned
Do you know when SonicFox started to get talked about? I don't remember exactly first time I heard about him but I know it was in a tourney where he got several first place.
I remember the starting of mk9? He was taking out vets and they were doubting who he was since he was a kid. Destroyed everyone in the game using Sonya or kitana not sure, then kept on with NRS games. I've never seen him as dominant as he is now tho with erron black

Also him juggling games around, SG may be small but it gets its numbers and he does excellent as well
 

JediLink

Member
How many people that actually believe this play anything other than Smash games as their "fighter"?
I've played fighting games longer than I've played Smash (This is my SRK account if you want proof or something) and I can tell you that Melee is actually one of the deepest and hardest fighting games you could ever play at the top level.

Between wavedashing, wavelanding, dash dancing, pivots, SHFFLing, edge cancelling, shield stopping, shield dropping, shortening, on so on, half the depth and skill of the game is just in the movement alone. It's like you're playing a fighting game but you're also speedrunning Super Mario 64 at the same time. Compare this to Street Fighter where you have fixed walk speeds and jump angles. Total opposite ends of the spectrum really.

The other thing really, really super unique about Melee is that are no fixed combos - instead it greatly emphasises on-the-fly ingenuity to consider which move is going to give you the best combination of damage, positioning, follow-up potential or possibly a direct kill, all while anticipating and playing around your opponent's escape options. Although the pure number of attacks is less than most 6 button fighting games, it's more than made up for by the fact that many moves have greatly different properties depending on the frame and part of the hitbox you connect with. Dudes like PewPewU in particular are geniuses when it comes to this stuff. Who the fuck would ever think a weird backwards hit of a forward air at this percent would combo perfectly into a forward smash like this? This is like a complete dimension of skill in itself that straight up doesn't exist in other fighting games. The most you'll really have to do is decide whether you want to prioritise damage, stun, corner carry or meter usage, but no matter what there's going to be an optimal combo that you'll have already memorised beforehand. You never have to work creatively with the mechanics on the fly.

Melee is so deep and hard that even after it's been out for 14 years, the highest level of competition is still about playing the game as much as it is about playing the player. There was this dude named Hax who believed everyone was playing sub-optimally, that everyone could be moving faster and punishing harder, that aspiring for borderline TAS level perfection was the next big thing, and that he was going to be the one to do it. Which he kind of did, until he gave himself severe tendonitis/carpal tunnel and had to retire until he had surgery and his hands could recover.

But anyway, I think we've derailed the thread long enough. Let's go back to talking about Mike Ross's eSports reign.
 

pizzacat

Banned
So quick question, why does it matter if people think it's not a fighting game anyway? No need for threads on threads if the people who know melee and other smashes are top tier play in a fighting game know it already?


Another one, why would developer not give a shit about the competitive side or flip flop as much as they do? Why didn't they basically make a "melee 2" and expand on their (to my knowledge) mistake like other fighting game devs do (I.E: like snake edging with bryan fury in tekken?) instead for the next game they introduce a spiteful mechanic that makes the game feel worse (tripping, right?) and then the meta to this new one ain't that great from what I've seen (becomes a real camp fest and started lots of boring matches, this is from what I saw from weeklies, I missed this on evo) but apparently there was a new patch that turned shit on its head?

And don't say to keep it casual because melee can still be played casual and comp.

No snark, sorry if I offend, just questions.
 
Op needs to break out of the Smash world. Sonicfox didn't lose a tourney for a year or so, Daigo's had a few runs, Wong in Marvel 2, JDCR in Tekken...

Yea, this. Not to mention that, even though he doesn't always win the finals of some other games, Justin Wong is just... really, really good at fighting games. Seriously.

But OP is cool, he's not overexcited or anyt....

Or maybe Michael Jordan is the ZeRo of basketball.

Ok, yea, maybe OP needs to calm down a little.
 

Synth

Member
Kinda strange to not see Thresh mentioned in this thread tbh.

I mean, sure... there were like 4 people globally who had any idea what they were doing at the time, but the question is about who was most dominant, not how good their competition was., and Thresh was basically playing a different game than everyone else.
 
ITT: A lot of people who disrespect Smash and don't know how prevalent the competitive scene is for the game.

Granted as others have pointed how, he probably has a few EVOs to go.
 

Nosgotham

Junior Member
I've played fighting games longer than I've played Smash (This is my SRK account if you want proof or something) and I can tell you that Melee is actually one of the deepest and hardest fighting games you could ever play at the top level.

Between wavedashing, wavelanding, dash dancing, pivots, SHFFLing, edge cancelling, shield stopping, shield dropping, shortening, on so on, half the depth and skill of the game is just in the movement alone. It's like you're playing a fighting game but you're also speedrunning Super Mario 64 at the same time. Compare this to Street Fighter where you have fixed walk speeds and jump angles. Total opposite ends of the spectrum really.

The other thing really, really super unique about Melee is that are no fixed combos - instead it greatly emphasises on-the-fly ingenuity to consider which move is going to give you the best combination of damage, positioning, follow-up potential or possibly a direct kill, all while anticipating and playing around your opponent's escape options. Although the pure number of attacks is less than most 6 button fighting games, it's more than made up for by the fact that many moves have greatly different properties depending on the frame and part of the hitbox you connect with. Dudes like PewPewU in particular are geniuses when it comes to this stuff. Who the fuck would ever think a weird backwards hit of a forward air at this percent would combo perfectly into a forward smash like this? This is like a complete dimension of skill in itself that straight up doesn't exist in other fighting games. The most you'll really have to do is decide whether you want to prioritise damage, stun, corner carry or meter usage, but no matter what there's going to be an optimal combo that you'll have already memorised beforehand. You never have to work creatively with the mechanics on the fly.

Melee is so deep and hard that even after it's been out for 14 years, the highest level of competition is still about playing the game as much as it is about playing the player. There was this dude named Hax who believed everyone was playing sub-optimally, that everyone could be moving faster and punishing harder, that aspiring for borderline TAS level perfection was the next big thing, and that he was going to be the one to do it. Which he kind of did, until he gave himself severe tendonitis/carpal tunnel and had to retire until he had surgery and his hands could recover.

But anyway, I think we've derailed the thread long enough. Let's go back to talking about Mike Ross's eSports reign.


all this right here is gospel. preach'
 

Clefargle

Member
How many people that actually believe this play anything other than Smash games as their "fighter"?



http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/...nt-fighting-genre-and-value-unpredictability/

I believe this and I play Soul Calibur, Skull Girls, and SFIV. I'm not saying it's deeper than any of those specifically, but it is an incredibly see game and with Sm4sh it can get even deeper with customs and equipment. Also, Sakurai's classification of his game doesn't matter. Games are classified by the public, it's not an official thing. I can't believe the "smash ain't fightan gaem" argument is still alive on this board.
 

Alebrije

Member
So e sports just applies for smash or fighting tournaments , or it also includes Fifa and COD fps games ?

And a person that plays tournaments or esports is just a player not an athlete.
 

collige

Banned
JWong and Fatality are obvious picks, but I would like to shout out No Tidehunter/Alliance's 2012-2013 Dota 2 run. It didn't last for very long, but for a ~9 month stretch, they won every single major tourmaent, culminating with their TI3 performance where they went 14-0 in group stages and 9-3 without dropping a single set in the main tournament. It was incredible to watch, every single established team just got dumped on.

Another one, why would developer not give a shit about the competitive side or flip flop as much as they do? Why didn't they basically make a "melee 2" and expand on their (to my knowledge) mistake like other fighting game devs do (I.E: like snake edging with bryan fury in tekken?) instead for the next game they introduce a spiteful mechanic that makes the game feel worse (tripping, right?) and then the meta to this new one ain't that great from what I've seen (becomes a real camp fest and started lots of boring matches, this is from what I saw from weeklies, I missed this on evo) but apparently there was a new patch that turned shit on its head?

And don't say to keep it casual because melee can still be played casual and comp.

No snark, sorry if I offend, just questions.

It's entirely Sakurai being antagonistic towards the Melee competitive crowd. He simply doesn't give a fuck high level play.
 
So quick question, why does it matter if people think it's not a fighting game anyway?

For Smash I believe it's because for half of Melee's long years of being a highly competitive game, it was entirely ignored and even shunned by the FGC. It was made fun of, put down and not allowed with "the big boys" at large FGC tournaments.

Melee is the second most played fighting game currently, behind only SFIV. That's a huge badge of honor, and when people try to paint Smash as not in the fighting genre, to Smash fans, it feels like the old days when Melee wasn't a "proper" fighting game, and it is still used to put down Smash. By saying Smash isn't a fighting game, people no longer have to allow it into the FGC and many in the FGC still wish Melee had no part in it.

If Smash is a fighting game, it means

- Melee is the second most played fighting game currently
- Brawl is the best selling fighting game of all time

And these two things make a lot of people in the FGC extremely uncomfortable, so in order to dance around those two facts, they pretend Smash isn't a fighting game. If it isn't a fighting game, then those two points are true and a "more traditional" fighter can come and claim those titles for themselves.

For a long time, Smash was shunned from the FGC. And the excuse "Smash isn't a fighting game!" was often used to do so. So when Smash fans get defensive about the genre of Smash, it comes from those days.

Even these days, despite Smash being generally accepted by the FGC, it still has to deal with things like asinine time slots and always being reminded that Smash players are "guests" and are lucky to even be there.
 

FSLink

Banned
It's entirely Sakurai being antagonistic towards the Melee competitive crowd. He simply doesn't give a fuck high level play.

I will say that I don't think it's intentional though, he just prefers a broader appeal game to be made, much like how other fighting game developers seem to want to include stuff like comeback mechanics to make it more enticing to newbies, though a bit more extreme in some cases. I do think Smash 4 and its patches are moving in the right direction a lot (Vectoring + shield patches, GCN controller compatible, etc.),

...and then there's some stuff that is just weird or questionable (Brawl's game design in general, lack of intuitive UI + unlock system for custom specials in 4, For Glory lacking stages with platforms, Tourney mode being awful for actual tourneys both offline and online...)
 
Hahaha, I knew this was gonna be "Smash isn't a fighting game" even though it is at EVO, in the FGG threads and other shit.
laugh.gif
 

collige

Banned
I will say that I don't think it's intentional though, he just prefers a broader appeal game to be made, much like how other fighting game developers seem to want to include stuff like comeback mechanics to make it more enticing to newbies, though a bit more extreme in some cases. I do think Smash 4 and its patches are moving in the right direction a lot (Vectoring + shield patches, GCN controller compatible, etc.),

...and then there's some stuff that is just weird or questionable (Brawl's game design in general, lack of intuitive UI + unlock system for custom specials in 4, For Glory lacking stages with platforms, Tourney mode being awful for actual tourneys both offline and online...)
Like others have said earlier, the "broader appeal" argument doesn't really make too much sense when Melee already had mass appeal. It was the best selling game on the Gamecube and had a much higher attach rate than Brawl.
 

Evilisk

Member
- Melee is the second most played fighting game currently
- Brawl is the best selling fighting game of all time

And these two things make a lot of people in the FGC extremely uncomfortable, so in order to dance around those two facts, they pretend Smash isn't a fighting game. If it isn't a fighting game, then those two points are true and a "more traditional" fighter can come and claim those titles for themselves.

This sounds absurd. The Smash hate is real but I really doubt that it stems from wanting a more traditional fighting game to claim arbitrary titles like being the best selling fighting game ever
 

Forkball

Member
Wow this thread got a lot of replies. Let me just che-
YajuTGT.gif


Is this thread a joke?
6YVgwhP.gif

TeamLiquid Final Edit: The Ultimate Weapon
$500,000 in prize earnings, much much more than that in salaries and sponsorships. Nicknamed God. Flash on a plane
That plane shit left me speechless. That's all I can say.

OP never posted again
I was too busy studying and having dinner with my friend, but I guess arguing about who is the best at virtually punching others would be a more productive use of my time.
Op refrain from making e sports threads in the future.
MDAtB8s.gif


He does know not much about esports .thats why ppl are shitting on him and his hyperbolic claims
You does know not much about English apparently. And I don't know what milk has to do with anything.
Tekken is a rhythm game because you have to hit the buttons at the right time.
tekkenv01_thumb.jpg

And Top 2 or 3 eSports? LOL! Top 3 eSports is League, DotA, and CS:GO.
Where does H1Z1 fall into this?

Ok, yea, maybe OP needs to calm down a little.
Both have questionable fashion choices.
e0IYyHi.jpg
 

Clefargle

Member
Like others have said earlier, the "broader appeal" argument doesn't really make too much sense when Melee already had mass appeal. It was the best selling game on the Gamecube and had a much higher attach rate than Brawl.

But his point still stands that Sakurai has been proactively reaching out to the "hardcore" smash fans with the things he mentioned. The patches make the game snappier and more aggressive and Ryu is essentially a combo heavy character made for the most heavy players.
 

mStudios

Member
If Smash is a fighting game, it means

- Melee is the second most played fighting game currently
- Brawl is the best selling fighting game of all time

Melee gets better number than smash 4 at nationals. Smash 4 gets better numbers at weeklys than melee.

How any copies has smash 4 sold so far?
I know there's 7m for 3ds, dunno about wiiu.
 

Majukun

Member
Like others have said earlier, the "broader appeal" argument doesn't really make too much sense when Melee already had mass appeal. It was the best selling game on the Gamecube and had a much higher attach rate than Brawl.
It's because now it's online.
advance techniques in melee are basically what sneaking is in Mario kart.. something more difficult to do but that gives so much advantage that whoever doesn't do it might as well don't compete at all.
Nintendo doesn't want that, doesn't want people that just want to play for fun get carpal tunnel or just stop playing.
especially since those glitches were left as an experiment, and at Nintendo they didn't like what they saw.
 

Clefargle

Member
Melee gets better number than smash 4 at nationals. Smash 4 gets better numbers at weeklys than melee.

How any copies has smash 4 sold so far?
I know there's 7m for 3ds, dunno about wiiu.

I just googled and found 3.8m back in March. I would guess it has broken 4m by now and that puts the combined total around 11m.
 

Layell

Member
especially since those glitches were left as an experiment, and at Nintendo they didn't like what they saw.

nope stop right there, considering certain aspects of the AT physics were coded right into the game (L-cancelling, wavedashing, and now the V-cancelling I believe it's called) we can't exactly call them glitches. They were clearly added to the game, although probably not used the way they intended.

As for Zero, while he's good at Smash 4, it says a lot that many of the best melee players haven't cared at all to continue in Smash 4 stuff. They just aren't willing to invest in a game that isn't as fast paced as Melee/PM. Hungrybox has to an extent as well as M2K but they clearly care more about Melee and PM, because that is what they enjoy.
 

woodland

Member
"Is this one guy, who dominated a game in a scene bereft of the best players from all past games, in the 2nd slowest Smash to date, the best eSports player ever?"

Nahhhh. In fighting games? Nah, others have pointed out better players. In eSports? Also nah, Jaedong and Flash were the top for years longer than Zero. Also, lmao "Is MJ the Zero of basketball?"
 

FSLink

Banned
Like others have said earlier, the "broader appeal" argument doesn't really make too much sense when Melee already had mass appeal. It was the best selling game on the Gamecube and had a much higher attach rate than Brawl.

I'm not really arguing anything, I don't necessarily agree with it either since I felt Melee was "casual friendly" enough.

I'm just saying it's a trend to "dumb down" mechanics to broaden appeal. I think to an extent it's okay. I don't really have huge issues with comeback mechanics in other fighting games...., or slowing down games in general, or specifically Smash: removing L-Canceling and removal of free fall to air dodge was fine too....(outside of making air dodges a bit too good), but the jump from Melee to Brawl was quite drastic.

However I do recognize that they've been doing a really good job with Smash 4 so far outside of a few instances (in my opinion of course).


Yes?
He's lost sets before and got sent to losers, he didn't get eliminated from the tournament at TBH5.
 
I didn't say it isn't a fighting game, but party platformer comes first in my mind.

Nintendo never built this game originally for eSports. They intended it for a bunch of young children to have fun together.
Saying it isn't a party platform is even less true than saying it isn't a 2d fighter.

Holy shit, this post.

The only thing you got right is that it wasn't intended for e-sports. Everything else is ignorance and prejudice.
 

Mory Dunz

Member
Like others have said earlier, the "broader appeal" argument doesn't really make too much sense when Melee already had mass appeal. It was the best selling game on the Gamecube and had a much higher attach rate than Brawl.

And Smash Wii U has a higher attach rate than Melee even with Smash 3DS coming out months in advance. Failed systems will do that....

So it's kind of a weird metric to use against Brawl sales
 

Swarna

Member
OP's post is comedy since it ignores the entirety of competitive gaming but the Smash hate is funny (if not predictable). Whether it's a fighting game or not is semantics. The fact that its creator doesn't like competitive play is also irrelevant. Competitive games live or die through their actual community+viewership, which both Smash titles have in spades. Both games probably dwarf whatever your favourite fighting game happens to be in that respect so that things that happen in Smash are objectively more relevant than things that happen in, say, weaboo fighter #42.
 

pizzacat

Banned
OP's post is comedy since it ignores the entirety of competitive gaming but the Smash hate is funny (if not predictable). Whether it's a fighting game or not is semantics. The fact that its creator doesn't like competitive play is also irrelevant. Competitive games live or die through their actual community+viewership, which both Smash titles have in spades. Both games probably dwarf whatever your favourite fighting game happens to be in that respect so that things that happen in Smash are objectively more relevant than things that happen in, say, weaboo fighter #42.
Nice avatar guy
 

Memento

Member
Wow. This is so weird. Everyone is citing names I have never heard in my life. Guess I am really not into this e-sports stuff...
 

Durante

Member
I don't think anyone can argue with Flash. Perhaps not most influential, but most dominant in an insanely competitive e-Sport environment, perhaps the most competitive that has ever existed so far? Absolutely.
 

collige

Banned
And Smash Wii U has a higher attach rate than Melee even with Smash 3DS coming out months in advance. Failed systems will do that....

So it's kind of a weird metric to use against Brawl sales

True, but my point was that Brawl being so simplified didn't lead to a huge increase in sales for a game that was designed to be "more accessible". Attach rate is worth bringing up only because Brawl would've sold more than Melee regardless of its gameplay simply due to the Wii's massive install base.
 

mStudios

Member
Like others have said earlier, the "broader appeal" argument doesn't really make too much sense when Melee already had mass appeal. It was the best selling game on the Gamecube and had a much higher attach rate than Brawl.

edit: misinterpreted your post.

True, but my point was that Brawl being so simplified didn't lead to a huge increase in sales for a game that was designed to be "more accessible". Attach rate is worth bringing up only because Brawl would've sold more than Melee regardless of its gameplay simply due to the Wii's massive install base.

Do you think 11 millions are not enough? Even when Brawl is the most sold fighting game ever? (Smash 4 gonna take the spot soon). Smash =/= Mario Kart.

Wii coulda sold 300 millions console, does not change anything at all.
 
I'd like to see how ZeRo continues to keep up his reign on Smash4 for the duration of the games popularity before saying he's the most dominant eSports player in history. Nonetheless 55-0 is a very impressive record. Especially considering the amount of major tournaments and players the game has.
 

Mory Dunz

Member
True, but my point was that Brawl being so simplified didn't lead to a huge increase in sales for a game that was designed to be "more accessible". Attach rate is worth bringing up only because Brawl would've sold more than Melee regardless of its gameplay simply due to the Wii's massive install base.

While I see what you're saying, how is going from ~7 million to just under 13 million not a huge increase? That's like an ~80% growth.

NSMBWii and MKWii probably don't help these discussions because people start to use those numbers as a sort of baseline I assume. No matter how "accessible" Smash becomes, it's still too complicated (and its genre) which prevent it from pulling 30 million ever. 12-13 million is about the most I would expect from this type of game.


I guess this is kinda OT now, but it's better than discussing the legitimacy of games.
 
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