Support NeoGAF

[FSLink]

The one for the series, but like you quoted wiki, it's pretty much understood that wiki is edited by anyone. I could add stuff about platforming to Smash if I wanted to, and it would be true.

Doesn't say it as its primary genre.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Smash_Bros. " is a series of crossover fighting games published by Nintendo"

The point is it's usually perceived as a fighting game. And it can be easily seen that I didn't edit it to prove a silly point lol

 

[HK-47]

How many people that actually believe this play anything other than Smash games as their "fighter"?



http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/...nt-fighting-genre-and-value-unpredictability/

Death of the author, bro. Most people consider it a fighting game.

 

[FZZ]

Title change is stupid. ZeRo's been playing smash since he was 11 and was winning tournaments against people twice his age back in Chile.

He hasn't just picked up the game for a year wtf?

That is proper cringe worthy shit, fuck me.

Yep. That's not to say ZeRo is bad at all, far from it but SonicFox is on a whole other level when it comes to MKX. He is the the most stand out player.



I agree with Shining Sunshine when talking about Smash 4. Talk Melee and then I disagree, but being good at Smash 4 is like getting an A+ in RE Studies while failing all other subjects. You're good at the one subject no-one cares about. (Smash 4 being RE).

Another dumbshit post.

ZeRo was a top 40 ranked Melee player last year after dropping the game for years, also in 2014 and he was undisputed number 1 in Project M when he was still playing in 3.02.

Keep on flexing Melee's dick tho

 

[Shining Sunshine]

Do you consider sumo wrestling wrestling?

Uuuuh what? yes?

Doesn't say it as its primary genre.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Smash_Bros. " is a series of crossover fighting games published by Nintendo"

The point is it's usually perceived as a fighting game. And it can be easily seen that I didn't edit it to prove a silly point lol

Sure, and I perceive it for its primary mechanic of platforming and party game.

 

[StayDead]

Nah, the end goal is for the opponent to fall off the platform. The entire gameplay revolves around platforms, and fighting is a method of getting opponents off the platform.

I think a lot of people are up in arms even though I already said that me saying Party Platformer doesn't discount it being a fighting game, and I never said it isn't competitive.

I will argue that it is less competitive and less skilled than other fighting games and eSports.



Primarily an FPS since you're always in first-person and the game revolves around shooting each other to death. Way different from the point I'm making here about Smash.

wat, you could use the exact same argument for Smash. The gameplay is always side on (like fighting games) and the game revolves around beating each other to death (like fighting games).

How is that a different point to the one you just made? Just because the footsies and movement in Smash has stages with platforms on it doesn't suddenly make it a platformer.

 

[Maztorre]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Staying on the platform means you live. Not staying on the platforms means you lose a life.

Have you seen Smash? Have you seen the players knock each other off the platform? I seriously don't get why you aren't understand that simple logic.

And all platformers have staying on platforms as a goal. There is absolutely no disputing that. That is the basis of a platform game.

I'm out. You continue to make the most tortured theoretical comparisons, completely ignorant of what is actually happening in the game. Shit like this "Staying on the platform means you live. Not staying on the platforms means you lose a life." is nonsense that avoids discussing what is actually causing the players to leave the stage in a match (fighting, durrr). Any "platforming" that is occurring is happening incidentally as a result of the player engaging in combat. The primary mechanic is the combat, the secondary mechanic is stage recovery (which again, is barely even "platforming" in any traditional sense). As I said before, Virtua Fighter has movement, jumping, fighting, and a stage you can fall off of, but nobody would classify it as a platformer just because you lose if you fall off. Smash's goals and mechanics are blatantly much more closely related to fighting games than platformers. It is a fighting game.

 

[HK-47]

Uuuuh what? yes?



Sure, and I perceive it for its primary mechanic of platforming and party game.

Party game is a mechanic? You are all over the place, as usual.

 

[Shuggananas]

soul calibur is an RPG platformer
RPG because it has ivy with those anime tits, and platformer because if you fall off you lose

 

[djkeem]

Uuuuh what? yes?



Sure, and I perceive it for its primary mechanic of platforming and party game.

You don't see the similarities where you try not to get pushed out of the ring or off the platform?

 

[Toxi]

Tekken is a rhythm game because you have to hit the buttons at the right time.

 

[Shining Sunshine]

wat, you could use the exact same argument for Smash. The gameplay is always side on (like fighting games) and the game revolves around beating each other to death (like fighting games).

How is that a different point to the one you just made? Just because the footsies and movement in Smash has stages with platforms on it doesn't suddenly make it a platformer.

Because platforming comes first in Smash.

Platforming is important in TF as it is for many FPS games, but the camera and shooting defines the genre.

I define Smash by its platforming component first.

I'm out. You continue to make the most tortured theoretical comparisons, completely ignorant of what is actually happening in the game. Shit like this "Staying on the platform means you live. Not staying on the platforms means you lose a life." is nonsense that avoids discussing what is actually causing the players to leave the stage in a match (fighting, durrr). Any "platforming" that is occurring is happening incidentally as a result of the player engaging in combat. The primary mechanic is the combat, the secondary mechanic is stage recovery (which again, is barely even "platforming" in any traditional sense). As I said before, Virtua Fighter has movement, jumping, fighting, and a stage you can fall off of, but nobody would classify it as a platformer just because you lose if you fall off. Smash's goals and mechanics are blatantly much more closely related to fighting games than platformers. It is a fighting game.

Of course Virtual Fighter is not a platformer. You don't jump to other platforms as you do in Smash.

You talk about combat, but what is the result of the combat. Knocking people off platforms. So I'm right either way.

Party game is a mechanic? You are all over the place, as usual.

Party game is a feature. I only played Smash with a bunch of friends. That is the draw of Smash for me (when I was young) and many others.

You don't see the similarities where you try not to get pushed out of the ring or off the platform?

Wait what? Are you comparing wrestling to smash?

 

[Katzenjammer]

Dear lord is it really that important to classify which genre the game belongs to? It's really its own thing and it doesn't fully fit in the "fighting game" box. It allows for much more agility and dynamic placement than a typical fighter, the stages are dynamic, there are no life bars, and it's not fought in "rounds". It's really fun to watch when played at a high level and the top-tier players are crazy good at it though so who cares if it's generally categorized the same way as traditional fighters?

 

[CaviarMeths]

Sure, and I perceive it for its primary mechanic of platforming and party game.

This shit is just woefully, sorrowfully wrong.

We'll put aside the "primary mechanic of platforming" aside for now, because that's so hilariously wrong that my brain isn't even processing it. But a party game is a game which includes and caters to everyone. This is why random events and "luck" factors are such a heavy factor. Because the idea is to have a game where anyone can just pick it up and have some fun. Kind of like a family board game. There's no such thing as hardcore Pictionary.

Smash can be very fun with parties, but so can Street Fighter. This doesn't make them party games, as much as Sakurai tried to make shitty Smash Tour a thing.

I can't wrap my head around why anybody above legal voting age would feel uncomfortable admitting that a game starring Mario is a highly technical and competitive fighting game.

 

[djkeem]

.



Wait what? Are you comparing wrestling to smash?

You said trying to stay on a platform makes it a platforming game.
So i was curious if you applied that logic to other sports.

 

[Varjet]

Because platforming comes first in Smash

It's conceivable to win in a game in Smash without ever jumping, so I don't see how that is true.

 

[Shining Sunshine]

Dear lord is it really that important to classify which genre the game belongs to? It's really its own thing and it doesn't fully fit in the "fighting game" box. It allows for much more agility and dynamic placement than a typical fighter, the stages are dynamic, there are no life bars, and it's not fought in "rounds". It's really fun to watch when played at a high level and the top-tier players are crazy good at it though so who cares if it's generally categorized the same way as traditional fighters?

I agree. I don't care what people categorize it lol. So who cares how I categorize it.

Call it a party platformer fighting game. It's all semantically correct.

This shit is just woefully, sorrowfully wrong.

We'll put aside the "primary mechanic of platforming" aside for now, because that's so hilariously wrong that my brain isn't even processing it. But a party game is a game which includes and caters to everyone. This is why random events and "luck" factors are such a heavy factor. Because the idea is to have a game where anyone can just pick it up and have some fun. Kind of like a family board game. There's no such thing as hardcore Pictionary.

Smash can be very fun with parties, but so can Street Fighter. This doesn't make them party games, as much as Sakurai tried to make shitty Smash Tour a thing.

I can't wrap my head around why anybody above legal voting age would feel uncomfortable admitting that a game starring Mario is a highly technical and competitive fighting game.

No, Street Fighter has 2 players. That's the difference.

You said trying to stay on a platform makes it a platforming game.
So i was curious if you applied that logic to other sports.

I didn't think about it, but it is an interesting idea comparing wrestling to Smash. It actually makes a lot of sense if you think about it.

It's conceivable to win in a game in Smash without ever jumping, so I don't see how that is true.

It's conceivable to win a game in Smash without ever fighting.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

"Party game" isn't a mechanic. You can play literally any multiplayer game as a "party game"; it's a meaningless term.

 

[CaviarMeths]

No, Street Fighter has 2 players. That's the difference.

Please explain why this is a difference without sounding like a teenager trying to rationalize his insecurities about Nintendo games. Because not saying that's what it is, but that's what it sounds like now. "B-but it's a platformer! For kids! Nintendo!"

Also, you'll note readily that competitive Smash is 1vs1.

 

[FSLink]

It's conceivable to win a game in Smash without ever fighting.

Uh, same with Soul Calibur? If you're referring to the opponent just running or backflipping off the platform without confrontation anyway.

 

[Toxi]

It's conceivable to win a game in Smash without ever fighting.

Also conceivable in Marvel vs Capcom 3 against an opponent spamming Haggar lariat.

Or who uses Ryu's hyper mode.

There are probably more ways to self-damage I'm forgetting.

 

[Nickle]

Sunshine, how many matches of competitive Smash have you watched?

 

[Shining Sunshine]

Please explain why this is a difference without sounding like a teenager trying to rationalize his insecurities about Nintendo games. Because not saying that's what it is, but that's what it sounds like now. "B-but it's a platformer! For kids! Nintendo!"

Also, you'll note readily that competitive Smash is 1vs1.

I was responding to the party part. Street Fighter isn't a party game.

Sure, great, Competitive fighting game is obviously 1v1, however, I play it with three other friends.

Read back to what I posted. I said "I consider smash as a party platformer".

Uh, same with Soul Calibur? If you're referring to the opponent just running off the platform without confrontation anyway.

I was just making a point that if Varjet says it's not a platformer because you don't have a jump, then my sarcastic rebuttal is it's not a fighter because you don't have to fight.

Both are wrong of course.

Sunshine, how many matches of competitive Smash have you watched?

Stuff on Twitch. A streamer I watch hosts it when it's an event, so I just leave it up.

 

[djkeem]

I didn't think about it, but it is an interesting idea comparing wrestling to Smash. It actually makes a lot of sense if you think about it.
.

=) Well i'm glad you can see the game the way i do. And since wrestling is considered a combat sport we can now safely describe smash as a "fighting" game lol.

 

[Shining Sunshine]

=) Well i'm glad you can see the game the way i do. And since wrestling is considered a combat sport we can now safely describe smash as a "fighting" game lol.

Uuuh I never said Smash isn't a fighting game.

 

[ozz ex machina]

Haven't checked the thread to see if it has been mentioned (i'd assume it has been) but NIPs 87-0 run on LAN for CS is more impressive.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

As impressive a year as the Scarf King had, how can it be compared to presumably similar dominance over the course of several years by Justin Wong - let alone the decade plus.

This thread reminds of the premature crowning of Odell Beckam Jr. as the best WR in football after his rookie year.

 

[djkeem]

Uuuh I never said Smash isn't a fighting game.

Oh my fault then i thought you called a party platformer originally. Honestly it doesn't really matter. They're all video games in the end.

 

[-tetsuo-]

You don't know what a platformer is if you don't think Smash has a platforming component

You really think you're trying to stay on the platforms, jumping to different platforms, getting the opponent off the platforms, isn't platforming?

Platforming isn't limited to the original Mario Bros. It is a mechanic.

What about the levels that don't have platforms?

Uuuh I never said Smash isn't a fighting game.

I consider it a party platformer.

Is party platformer some kind of fighting game?

 

[CaviarMeths]

I need to stop arguing in this thread and just conclude with a "no, Zero is not the most dominant player in eSports history," but...

Sure, great, Competitive fighting game is obviously 1v1, however, I play it with three other friends.

iwanttoseethereceipts.gif

 

[-tetsuo-]

Competitive shooters now called competitive stay alives. Not dying is the primary mechanic.

 

[Scipio]

Disrespectful title change. Zer0 is perhaps not the greatest, but his achievements are very impressive nonetheless.

 

[curlyfriski]

Zero was the top player in Brawl, PM, and Smash 4 at some point, as well as a high level Melee player. He's possibly the best overall smash player ever. Title change is dumb.

 

[Shining Sunshine]

What about the levels that don't have platforms?

Is party platformer some kind of fighting game?

I assume there has to be at least 1 platform unless Smash has some weird level I don't know about.

Party platformer doesn't exclude it being a fighter. It's what I treat it as when I played it long ago.

 

[Cronox]

Christ half the posts in this thread are cringeworthy. What the fuck am I reading? Zero isn't necessarily the most dominant player in history, but his career and current run is notable within the fighting game community. Non-SmashGAF, I am disappointed. I thought we were over shitting on competitive Smash. Street Fighter is the only fighting game with a larger scene. Do people think it got that way by virtue of some fluke, rather than Melee and Smash 4 being very competitive games? Either give it the respect it deserves or just admit you have no idea what you're talking about and try not to shitpost on your way out.

 

[ksan]

Yes, he's on the level of NiP 2001 and 2013~

 

[Tomohawk]

I assume there has to be at least 1 platform unless Smash has some weird level I don't know about.

Party platformer doesn't exclude it being a fighter. It's what I treat it as when I played it long ago.

Eldin bridge is probably the closest, being just flat for most of the match.

 

[whyreggielie]

I wouldn't even put him in M2K or Ken's level, those guys have had some real dominance in smash even though Ken has certainly fallen far.

 

[wheeplash]

Boxer where?

 

[sixteen-bit]

Are eSports participants called players or athletes? I forget.

I like the term cyberathlete.

 

[Jawmuncher]

Tell me when he goes pro with snake, then we can talk.

 

[Shining Sunshine]

Boxer where?

I mentioned Boxer. He has less titles than his successor, but he definitely has been the pioneer of eSports superstars.

 

[Mr. X]

Justin Wong in MvC2 while juggling other other games.

Sonic Fox did it in MK9, Injustice and MKX while taking tourneys in DoA5, Skullgirls and UNiB.

MOV has an insane record in 3rd Strike.

 

[Filter]

How about Tomo Ohira in the sf2 days?

The ultimate street fighter player?

 

[PandaPedinte]

Justin Wong in MvC2 while juggling other other games.

Sonic Fox did it in MK9, Injustice and MKX while taking tourneys in DoA5, Skullgirls and UNiB.

MOV has an insane record in 3rd Strike.

Do you know when SonicFox started to get talked about? I don't remember exactly first time I heard about him but I know it was in a tourney where he got several first place.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Re: Is it a fighting game? This is always one of the more boring semantics-based discussions I see. Although, I will admit that Smash is kind of an oddball. And by that, I just mean that -- even as a big fan of smash and a fan of watching it in tourneys -- there is an understanding that competitive Smash isn't really the original vision for the game. Even with Smash 4, this is the creator's take on tourney play:

Recently, there was a tournament featuring the top Japanese and American players. In 1v1s, the natural tendency is to use low risk moves to gradually deal damage to the opponent. Smash attacks rarely came out, and the matches were prone to becoming long, drawn out affairs. When considering the variety of ways Smash can be played I think this is a waste, but the winner was certainly decided by skill.

So, approaching it from that angle, it's easy to understand why some think of it more as a party game than as a legit competitive fighting game. However, if you have any familiarity with competitive Smash, this argument becomes silly. And I say that just because the competitive scene is both of the following:

1.) A completely different game within a game where all the Items and crazy stages are banned.

2.) Large enough to justify its own existence as opposed to being regarded as some easily forgettable fringe group.

If you're watching EVO top 8 of Melee or Smash 4 and seeing a wacky party game, then we are clearly watching a different game. If you and your friends are playing an 8-player free for all on Palutena's Temple with all items on, you're clearly playing a party game that isn't comparable at all to a traditional competitive fighting game

Honestly, I feel like a weird person sometimes just in that I consider it a strength of the series that it offers that flexibility. It is what you want it to be. But ultimately, since this is about competitive Smash, I don't really see the point in trolling that it's not really a fighting game.

 

[PandaAttack]

The title change :lol

 

[FSLink]

Recently, there was a tournament featuring the top Japanese and American players. In 1v1s, the natural tendency is to use low risk moves to gradually deal damage to the opponent. Smash attacks rarely came out, and the matches were prone to becoming long, drawn out affairs. When considering the variety of ways Smash can be played I think this is a waste, but the winner was certainly decided by skill.

It is interesting that the latest patch basically encourages more offensive play due to the changes to shield stun. It'll be fun to see how the changes work out in practice at high level.

 

[Clefargle]

Zero is great, the salt is real tho. Some people act like he's had a thousand year reign or some shit. Ken had a long undefeated streak back in Melee.

 

[Mr. X]

Do you know when SonicFox started to get talked about? I don't remember exactly first time I heard about him but I know it was in a tourney where he got several first place.

First time I heard was a NEC tourney when DoA5 was new because he was like 14-15 taking out big names in that game.

Then MK9, he was taking out big names with Kitana. MK9 got overshadowed by Injustice and whoever stuck with MK9 was getting mauled by him, then he found Batgirl in Injustice and was untouchable.

 

[PandaPedinte]

First time I heard was a NEC tourney when DoA5 was new because he was like 14-15 taking out big names in that game.

Then MK9, he was taking out big names with Kitana. MK9 got overshadowed by Injustice and whoever stuck with MK9 was getting mauled by him, then he found Batgirl in Injustice and was untouchable.

Wow. The first I heard of him was when he won a SG tourney and I saw people talking he had won other games too.