Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
You're describing the status quo without AV. The person you're replying to is describing how AV would change his vote. It doesn't feel like you're talking to each other.
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Canadian General Election (OT) - #elxn42: October 19, 2015
- Thread starter matthewwhatever
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You're describing the status quo without AV. The person you're replying to is describing how AV would change his vote. It doesn't feel like you're talking to each other.
No I have a problem with the voting system. I want proportional representation. Instant runoff voting is not proportional representation. It's as simple as that.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
I wonder if 2011 humbled the Liberals though. The sponsorship scandal, a succession of leaders that didn't appeal to Canadians, perceived arrogance and fatigue, Layton's NDP... they can't be confident that keeping the status quo will lead to another majority in 4-5 years.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
If Liberal really is everyone's #1 or #2 choice, that's still a strong mandate from the people to govern.
Like I said I prefer PR, since I think Green could be a serious force and get 10-20% of the seats, but I still think alternate voting is a big improvement.
Cool. Here's my preferential vote for voting systems:
1. Preferential Voting
2. Proportional Representation
3. MMP
Guess what? Your preferred voting system is represented.
Lol PJSalt. The Green party did, arguably, get screwed around debate participation. Might be time for May to move on too.
I think a ton of people would vote Green as their first party if they didn't have to worry about their vote not mattering due to there being a second pick available. In turn, they'd get a ton more seats than they normally do.
Simon Belmont
Banned
That's a pretty big assumption.
Impeccable
Member
I would have voted differently with PR for sure.
Big tobacco is going to be all over marijuana
I dont expect these small players to survive long
The thing is, we shouldn't be choosing a voting system based on what's best for the Greens.
We should be choosing it based on: simplicity, fairness and most representative of peoples' choices.
If people have a first and second choice, we should let those choices be heard and affect the vote.
dragonfart28
Banned
Go PR or leave it as it is.
No phoney half measures please.
No phoney half measures please.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
You don't think the pot smoking crowd will be all over "locally grown, organic"?
equippedwithtowel
Member
Why? It's the conservatives fault for not picking up more discouraged voters.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
The Greens in Australia (equivalent to our NDP as third party) won 9% of the vote in Australia.
You'd think all those lefty left Labour people would vote Greens as first and Labour as second, yet, surprise surprise, they don't.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Ugh, preferential voting is a half-assed solution.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
I stumbled upon the plugin to hide Neogaf threads/messages. Should be very good for my mental health.
Enjoy your unchallenged Quebec bashing and keep telling yourselves that you're not bigots. Bye!
What's going to matter is mass production and the race to the bottom.
$10 a joint or $10 a pack?
Easy to see what will win
firehawk12
Subete no aware
There's a reason why the Greens do better in the Senate there.
It'd be funny if NAFTA covers weed and you get cheap Mexican grown stuff flooding the market.
Get on a subway and DON'T GET OFF. Really abuse that new infrastructure money that's going to flow.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
I don't know anything about the Greens in Australia, but the fact that the Greens had spot-on perfect policies both federally and provincially (Ontario) made me want to vote for them here. They actually take a real stand on hard issues, and not even just that hippie environment -- they were the only big party promising to end religious schools in Ontario.
But I can't. I can't vote Green when I know that Tim "let's fire 100,000 people" Hudak's PCs are competitive in my riding. I can't vote Green when I know that it could contribute to another Harper minority, with more anti-democratic shenanigans to prevent a coalition.
At least with AV I could mark down "yes, they are my first choice, but I like the Liberals too -- they're pretty good."
And you know I'm happy today. Certainly Trudeau's not going to have a perfect record. I don't want to see Energy East going forward, and I'll be calling my MP when that comes up, but at least we have a good choice that's inclusive for all Canadians, which is something that AV would promote, rather than divisive nasty Harper-esque politics.
I'm pretty sure some farmers in BC are reading up on how to mass produce as we speak haha
gutter_trash
Banned
Le Québec a décidé de se joindre à la famille Canadienne en élisant 40+ députés Libéral.
Bienvenue gaboumafou dans un Canada ouvert et uni
Blue Submarine No. 6
Member
I'm aware of that, but what I'm saying is that Harper's "percentage of popular vote" was substantially fewer voters than what the Liberals gained yesterday. A million fewer. As a percentage of the Canadian population, the Liberals now have a stronger mandate than the Conservatives ever had. Still hard to justify an majority government, though, I admit...
Good article. thanks...
Elsewhere in The Citizen, Elections Canada now pegs voter turnout at 68.5%!!
TheRagnCajun
Member
Big tobacco will crush these guys. They have nothing proprietary, they have no trench, and they have no brand.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
If you follow the Australian example, what you want is STV. That's the only reason why the Greens in Australia have ANY power.
AV is not reform at all. It's fake reform made to make you feel better about wasting your vote.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
Remember when gutter trash predicted Trudeau as PM way back? Amazing what's happened since.
Uh, MMP is a form of PR.
In any case the real problem with AV is that in the vast majority of cases it elects the same person that would be elected under FPTP and all other first preference votes would get wasted and be unrepresented just as they do right now.
So the Greens would still not be a real option almost anywhere in the country for example and voting for the NDP in a Lib-Con swing riding or a Con safe seat would still be a pointless exercise in futility. 'Big tent' parties and regional protest partys would remain the only viable parties and our distorted view of each other would remain as well.
Nah, BC Bud is tops the world over, and BC smokers know where it's at, and I figure the same for the rest of Canada.
Where else do you think Cheech and Chong came from?
And Vancouver is home to the Crown Prince of Pot, Marc Emery and his wife Jodie Emery.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Exactly.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
MMP solves your problem. You vote Liberals locally, so a Conservative doesn't win your seat. You vote for Greens nationally, so you can be represented by a Green in parliament.
In AV, you would vote Green, but your vote will be elimanted in the first round, so your vote was essentially a vote for the Liberals. No difference from FPTP at all when it comes to the hard numbers. You'll be represented by a Liberal and not a Green.
The one saving grace is if liberals say it must be grown, cultivated, packaged and sold within the same provincial boundary.
Big tobacco would then be forced to build out in every province, allowing for job growth...
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Did you miss the part where I'm happy voting for the Liberals who won in my riding? It's not a wasted vote.
Yes both would be fine for me, good improvements, certainly not as good as PR but maybe easier to make happen.
I'd say there's quite a bunch of growops in Vancouver that have been gearing up for this already.
Hell, Vice has done many stories on this.
Simon Belmont
Banned
So if the guy you voted for doesn't win your vote is wasted? That's a strange way of looking at it.
To be fair, with the per-vote subsidy gone, it kind of is wasted. Bring the subsidy back.
People are stupid when it comes to voting. And politics.
Simon Belmont
Banned
Expressing your democratic rights is never a wasted effort. It's that sort of attitude that keeps people home.
Well ideologically no. But the fact that we once had a real incentive to vote for parties that don't typically get a lot of donations...and now we don't...is pretty sad.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
If your candidate has no chance, then yes?
AV does nothing but make the voter feel good about themselves. Everyone can decide to waste their vote on the Rhino party and then go "yeah, that was funny, but I really wanted to vote Liberal."
You Are Viewtiful
Member
I'm just saying, your vote didn't really change from FPTP to AV: it was still a vote for the Liberals in both systems. All you're really getting is a peace of mind; nothing's physically changed. The Greens would never amount to anything under AV (or FPTP).
But when you have your vote have no impact on anything if it doesn't land a seat
One good example of this is the UKIP in the last UK election
3rd most in votes... 1 seat
My website's name is wastedvotes.ca Woo! Hopefully will update with the results of this election by the start of next week. Data entry is tedious yo.
But yeah. it's wasted because it doesn't get me any representation. For the past four years I was represented by Brad Butt, an odious asshole of a man who didn't represent me in any way shape or form. But that's who my 'representative' is. What bullshit.
Especially since other countries would have translated my vote to something that actually had an impact in the resulting Parliament.
Edit: I don't vote to feel good about myself or because it's some menaingless ritual. I vote because I've considered the issues and I want to make a difference. FPTP and AV don't allow me to do that in a reliable sensible way.
Edit2: I live in a two party region. It's bullshit that only a vote for one or the other has any change of achieving anything. I want more real choices and I don't have them. in FPTP and I wouldn't in AV
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Sure it would. Instead of every other party seeing "3.5% of the vote for the Greens, nobody cares about their policies, environment's not a big deal", they'd see more like "15% of the vote for the Greens, let's try and include some of their policies in our big tent platform." There's more to elections to just winning seats the right % of seats.
And there's more to parliament than confidence votes, even if you're supporting a loser party with a minority of votes their work as parliamentarians is important in committees, opposing the government when they do something stupid, and representing their constituents. They can even bring in bills that can and do win enough votes to become the law of the land.
I think a lot of people forget that majority doesn't have to mean Harper style omnibus "my way or the highway" style of governing.
Simon Belmont
Banned
Representation is a guarantee of an opinion, not a guarantee to the representative of your choice.
I didn't follow the UK election. I can talk all day about what happened this election.
Well, I'm literally walking out the door for a teeth cleaning, so maybe not all day.
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