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[matthewwhatever]

http://ipolitics.ca/2015/10/26/red-tories-plan-ride-back-from-the-wilderness/

The divisions still exist within the Conservative party. Maybe merging progressives with nutjobs wasn't the smartest idea after all. Who knew? ¯_(&#12484_/¯

I'm skeptical. As Kady O'Malley tweeted, none of these people were saying much during the last ten years. Mulroney, to his credit, started becoming more openly critical in recent years, but outside of him it's been crickets. Anyone supporting the Conservatives now is doing so because they share in the party's blue toryism.

That said, I think the CPC's period of self-reflection will be more fruitful than the NDP's, if this story is anything to go by. From what I've read elsewhere, it seems like NDPers are pretty content with the explanation that the media was against them, and that they didn't do anything wrong.

 

[Stumpokapow]

http://ipolitics.ca/2015/10/26/red-tories-plan-ride-back-from-the-wilderness/

The divisions still exist within the Conservative party. Maybe merging progressives with nutjobs wasn't the smartest idea after all. Who knew? ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

I don't think this is true:

Former aide to Mulroney and, more recently, Conservative MP for Calgary Centre Lee Richardson confirmed that the Liberal Party’s stunning election results Oct. 19 after a stunningly tactical and miscalculated Conservative campaign included the votes of many senior pre-Harperite Tories who’ve voted reliably blue all their adult lives.

First, because the CPC vote barely dropped and to the extent that it did, some of that drop is going to e caused by conservatives staying home because they know they were going to lose. We know that the CPC has a very narrow floor to the ceiling ratio, and the results were well within that. Look at the shape of the campaign. Most of the movement was the Liberal party switching places with the NDP. The CPC barely declined in the polls over the run of the campaign.

Seems like a more reasonable argument about what happened is that the Liberal party managed to bleed out the NDP and to a lesser extent the Bloc and that the moderate increase in turnout was mostly progressive voters who had stayed home the last few elections.

I mean, I'm not telling them to continue focusing on the base to the exclusion of the rest of the country, but to the extent that Red Torys are dissatisfied with the party, I don't think they were voting for the party in the Harper era to begin with.

“In philosophical terms, Harper was always a moderate and a centrist. His personal interest was in putting the hot-button cultural issues — abortion, same-sex marriage — aside because the got in the way of winning.”

Skeptical of this as well. While it's true that Harper never seemed to have much personal appetite for those particular two social conservative issues, there's no doubt that a large part of how he reshaped Canada over the last decade was absolutely social conservative. The extensive reforms to the criminal justice system (mandatory minimums, drug law penalties increasing, parole reform, strengthening dangrerous offenders status, ending the prison safe tattoo program, ending 2-for-1 credit for time served before trial, extensive changes in public safety law) were absolutely driven by Harper's preference, not just tactical success.

 

[firehawk12]

Tough on crime is different from "gays shouldn't get married" and "abortions are murder" though. He just let the fringe part of the party do that shit while he focused on other things.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Tough on crime is different from "gays shouldn't get married" and "abortions are murder" though. He just let the fringe part of the party do that shit while he focused on other things.

I don't see tough on crime as any different; it's rooted in this protestant battle of good versus evil malarkey, the idea that society can be divided into people who are Good and people who are Bad, and the Bad ones deserve what they get, which is Punishment. If you look at cases like Canadian citizens being convicted of capital crimes in other countries and the Harper government saying "Fuck 'em, they broke the law, oh and by the way even though we know it's a political dead letter, we're actually for the death penalty anyway" -- that's absolutely socially conservative.

It's weird that we've defined justice policy as not a hot-button culture issue when it's absolutely an active area of legislative, but defined abortion as a hot-button culture issue when Canada's abortion politics are mostly marked by public silence (not to erase the battles going on behind closed doors, on the social conservative side largely on language and thought and on the progressive side largely on improving access especially in the Atlantic provinces)

 

[PumpkinSpice]

http://ipolitics.ca/2015/10/26/red-tories-plan-ride-back-from-the-wilderness/

The divisions still exist within the Conservative party. Maybe merging progressives with nutjobs wasn't the smartest idea after all. Who knew? ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

What, exactly, do red tories stand for? Are they just less extreme? Or do they really stand for progressive issues, and if so why are they still members of the Conservative Party?

That said, I think the CPC's period of self-reflection will be more fruitful than the NDP's, if this story is anything to go by. From what I've read elsewhere, it seems like NDPers are pretty content with the explanation that the media was against them, and that they didn't do anything wrong.

That election map comparison with different level-of-detail shape files annoys me to an unreasonable level.

Key quote:

The defeat is extra-jarring for party veterans, given that many had gritted their teeth and run a campaign that was unusually centrist and mainstream.

Under a leader who once sang the praises of Margaret Thatcher, the NDP promised balanced budgets, purged anti-Israel critics from its ranks and avoided mentioning the word “social.”

 

[firehawk12]

I don't see tough on crime as any different; it's rooted in this protestant battle of good versus evil malarkey, the idea that society can be divided into people who are Good and people who are Bad, and the Bad ones deserve what they get, which is Punishment. If you look at cases like Canadian citizens being convicted of capital crimes in other countries and the Harper government saying "Fuck 'em, they broke the law, oh and by the way even though we know it's a political dead letter, we're actually for the death penalty anyway" -- that's absolutely socially conservative.

It's weird that we've defined justice policy as not a hot-button culture issue when it's absolutely an active area of legislative, but defined abortion as a hot-button culture issue when Canada's abortion politics are mostly marked by public silence (not to erase the battles going on behind closed doors, on the social conservative side largely on language and thought and on the progressive side largely on improving access especially in the Atlantic provinces)

I think it's much easier to talk about mandatory sentences than it is to talk about whether gays should be allowed to get married and have kids though, because everyone generally agrees on the abstract nature of "being tough on crime". It's the same way that most Americans are fine with the NSA spying on them because "if you have nothing to hide, then you don't need to worry". I have no doubt that CSIS probably spies on us here too, and no one is up in arms about it.

This is why Conservative MPs have turned abortion into a feminist issue - they are co-opting feminist rhetoric by claiming that many abortions are a result of parents sex-selecting and are trying to win any kind of restriction on abortion based on those moral grounds. It's trying to take a hot button issue and make it generic enough to be palatable to anyone regardless of their personal beliefs. Because who would support aborting a fetus because you want a son instead of a daughter?

 

[Silexx]

I don't see tough on crime as any different; it's rooted in this protestant battle of good versus evil malarkey, the idea that society can be divided into people who are Good and people who are Bad, and the Bad ones deserve what they get, which is Punishment. If you look at cases like Canadian citizens being convicted of capital crimes in other countries and the Harper government saying "Fuck 'em, they broke the law, oh and by the way even though we know it's a political dead letter, we're actually for the death penalty anyway" -- that's absolutely socially conservative.

It's weird that we've defined justice policy as not a hot-button culture issue when it's absolutely an active area of legislative, but defined abortion as a hot-button culture issue when Canada's abortion politics are mostly marked by public silence (not to erase the battles going on behind closed doors, on the social conservative side largely on language and thought and on the progressive side largely on improving access especially in the Atlantic provinces)

I agree to a somewhat extent, but 'Tough on Crime' policies have been shown to play very well with the electorate, whereas same-sex marriage and abortion are seen as fait accompli with no one willing to change the status quo.

 

[firehawk12]

What, exactly, do red tories stand for? Are they just less extreme? Or do they really stand for progressive issues, and if so why are they still members of the Conservative Party?

I assume for people like Baird and his ilk, the issue is how you choose to distribute government money. Propping up industries like agriculture while stimulating the economy strictly through tax cuts like the income splitting scheme that Harper was obsessed with. This economic policy overwhelmed the anti-gay rhetoric which drove people like Scott Brison away from the party.

(And this doesn't get into stuff like foreign policy, since it's clear that the Conservatives are pro-bombing shit and pro-Israel and etc etc).

 

[mo60]

Baird won't be running for CPC leadership
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/john-baird-will-not-seek-conservative-party-leadership

 

[Mysterious]

http://ipolitics.ca/2015/10/26/red-tories-plan-ride-back-from-the-wilderness/

The divisions still exist within the Conservative party. Maybe merging progressives with nutjobs wasn't the smartest idea after all. Who knew? ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

To the few people who say the Liberals won only because of the vote of the NDP:

Former aide to Mulroney and, more recently, Conservative MP for Calgary Centre Lee Richardson confirmed that the Liberal Party’s stunning election results Oct. 19 after a stunningly tactical and miscalculated Conservative campaign included the votes of many senior pre-Harperite Tories who’ve voted reliably blue all their adult lives.

 

[firehawk12]

Baird won't be running for CPC leadership
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politi...rty-leadership

I mean he already quit didn't he?

To the few people who say the Liberals won only because of the vote of the NDP:

It's more that the NDP couldn't draw those voters, even after trying to chase the center with "no deficit budgets" and all that crap.

But I'm still salty about the NDP becoming an irrelevant party in a 2 party system, so don't mind me. lol

 

[Stet]

Baird won't be running for CPC leadership
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/john-baird-will-not-seek-conservative-party-leadership

Of course he's not. The CPC base would never accept a gay party leader.

 

[firehawk12]

Of course he's not. The CPC base would never accept a gay party leader.

I honestly believe that most Conservatives don't know that he's gay. He's certainly not entered into the realm of identity politics in any way unlike other queer MPs.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

To the few people who say the Liberals won only because of the vote of the NDP:

We all saw a big shift last week. Harper may have kept relatively the same # of votes as last time but they came from different voters. Soft tories shifted, and he brought in racist jerks Canada-wide. If you look at the riding level you can see that their vote was way wider distributed than 2011.

 

[Stumpokapow]

To the few people who say the Liberals won only because of the vote of the NDP:

In response to people who argue something, a completely unsupported assertion? Sure. Okay. Where are the Red Torys? Which riding did they flip?

 

[Socreges]

"Harper Derangement Syndrome"

Oh go fuck yourselves, Conservatives

Cut off the head and the party is still sick

 

[Layell]

Of course he's not. The CPC base would never accept a gay party leader.

As I have understood it this was a rather "open secret" in Ottawa, and he has never actually come out of the closet.

I am not sure if the CPC would accept someone who isn't a family man, that rules out Jason Kenney too. I will be very interested in seeing who dares try to go for the top spot after Harper kept all his MPs on such a tight leash.

"Harper Derangement Syndrome"

Oh go fuck yourselves, Conservatives

Cut off the head and the party is still sick

Where has this one been in the news lately?

 

[firehawk12]

As I have understood it this was a rather "open secret" in Ottawa, and he has never actually come out of the closet.

I am not sure if the CPC would accept someone who isn't a family man, that rules out Jason Kenney too. I will be very interested in seeing who dares try to go for the top spot after Harper kept all his MPs on such a tight leash.

Let's be real though, I wonder if the Canadian electorate would be willing to accept a gay PM regardless of party affiliation.

 

[Layell]

We have Wynne right now in Ontario, and right now only the sex-ed crazies are thrashing her "forcing her sexuality on us" as her sexual identity. So who knows for the other provinces.

 

[gabbo]

We have Wynne right now in Ontario, and right now only the sex-ed crazies are thrashing her "forcing her sexuality on us" as her sexual identity. So who knows for the other provinces.

Baird is probably too tainted by his years of being one of Harper's top ministers to have his sexuality be much of an issue outside of the extreme right of the base.
If he came forward it would be a topic for a day or two, and then nothing, much like Wynn who only brings it up when related issues occur.

 

[Walpurgis]

Let's be real though, I wonder if the Canadian electorate would be willing to accept a gay PM regardless of party affiliation.

I don't think most people would care since many people vote for parties rather than people. For those that vote for people, it could be an issue if the media makes it into one.

 

[Silexx]

Does it count if we already had a gay PM, but no one at the time knew about it?

 

[Sch1sm]

Does it count if we already had a gay PM, but no one at the time knew about it?

I... no. Doesn't.

We have Wynne right now in Ontario, and right now only the sex-ed crazies are thrashing her "forcing her sexuality on us" as her sexual identity. So who knows for the other provinces.

My boss is so anti-Wynne there are days I want to quit. It's one thing to not agree with what is legislated under her, considering you can

Spoiler

but really shouldn't

opt your child out of that part of the curriculum, but the one's who go on about her forcing her sexuality on us and encouraging the behaviour as if it's necessarily a bad thing. Looooord.

 

[gabbo]

Does it count if we already had a gay PM, but no one at the time knew about it?

No, and who are you making reference to?

 

[Stet]

As I have understood it this was a rather "open secret" in Ottawa, and he has never actually come out of the closet.

Sure, but an open secret is still potential fodder for any campaign. I bet one of his reasons for not running is so that it remains an open secret instead of public knowledge.

 

[Silexx]

No, and who are you making reference to?

Mackenzie King.

Also, I was being tongue-in-cheek.

 

[matthewwhatever]

We have Wynne right now in Ontario, and right now only the sex-ed crazies are thrashing her "forcing her sexuality on us" as her sexual identity. So who knows for the other provinces.

PEI has an openly gay premier too. I think there are still some pockets of resistance to the idea of a LGBTQ leader, but in a general election it wouldn't be an issue.

Of course, getting to the general election may be difficult without the support of the base to make you leader, so that would be a bit of a challenge for someone like Baird, but even then, I don't think it's as big an issue.

What, exactly, do red tories stand for? Are they just less extreme? Or do they really stand for progressive issues, and if so why are they still members of the Conservative Party?

I always understood it as being fiscally conservative, socially progressive. Liberal-lite, basically -- the PCs were the moderate party ready to take over from the Liberals during their brief stints out of office. The Reform Party comes from Western Canadian populism, the same anti-establishment feeling that created Social Credit, the Progressive Party (who joined with the original Conservatives in the '40s when the old Conservatives were trying to woo a new leader), the CCF, and the NDP.

As for why they'd be CPC members...no idea. I was one, and I ended up switching to the Liberals (following brief periods with the NDP and the Greens), since I didn't see any way that the merged party would represent my beliefs -- not when the Reform side was in charge.

To the few people who say the Liberals won only because of the vote of the NDP:

I think the Liberals won because about a million Liberal-turned-NDP voters returned to their original party, as did a few million more Liberal voters who had just stayed home during the Martin/Dion/Iggy years. I'm sure there was the odd Tory who supported the Liberals, but not enough to be statistically significant. Note all those polls that showed the overwhelming majority of CPC voters had no second choice: they supported their party no matter what.

 

[firehawk12]

I don't think most people would care since many people vote for parties rather than people. For those that vote for people, it could be an issue if the media makes it into one.

The question would be whether or not a queer, non-white, non-male, non-Christian politician would make it past the party nomination stage in the first place.

 

[Socreges]

Where has this one been in the news lately?

Was listening to CBC earlier and they had a number of Conservatives on, including Candice Bergan. They all agreed Harper Derangement Syndrome was why they lost the election, not in any way a rejection of their policies or values. It was all just tone and style that turned people off!

 

[Stet]

Was listening to CBC earlier and they had a number of Conservatives on, including Candice Bergan. They all agreed Harper Derangement Syndrome was why they lost the election, not in any way a rejection of their policies or values. It was all just tone and style that turned people off!

Murphy Brown commenting on our election. What a world.

 

[gutter_trash]

Murphy Brown commenting on our election. What a world.

these last two posts confused the hell out of me until I just found out that an MP has the same as the Actress

 

[Zombie James]

Was listening to CBC earlier and they had a number of Conservatives on, including Candice Bergan. They all agreed Harper Derangement Syndrome was why they lost the election, not in any way a rejection of their policies or values. It was all just tone and style that turned people off!

Conservative Delusion Syndrome.

 

[maharg]

To the few people who say the Liberals won only because of the vote of the NDP:

The Liberals managed to pull in a lot of votes that they haven't for a while, but given the actual numbers (as opposed to %s) it seems that a lot of that vote was quite simply people who haven't voted in a while, if ever at all. Probably a solid mix of indigenous, younger, and disenchanted promiscuous left-leaning voters (those mathewwhatever describes as "liberals returning to their old vote," but imo the reality is much more complex than that) rallying behind the national strategic vote.

Some of that was probably turned off conservative voters, but... the numbers don't bear out that they were a huge factor imo. It might look like they were to a Calgary MP on the hustings, but the truth is CPC->liberal shifters here in Alberta were a very inefficient shift, given that they only produced four seats and ate into the CPC vote total in the least useful place possible.

 

[Stet]

these last two posts confused the hell out of me until I just found out that an MP has the same as the Actress

The funny thing is that in my Ward, the school trustee is also named Murphy Browne.

 

[Zombie James]

Found the CBC Radio segment: http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/...earching-moving-forward-say-critics-1.3288386

 

[lupinko]

Mackenzie King.

Also, I was being tongue-in-cheek.

He does have an autographed photo of Hitler.

Completely unrelated but eh.

 

[Pedrito]

I've read a few colums written by separatists pundits over the weekend and they suffer from the same delusion as the conservatives. Basically, all the people who didn't vote for them are stupid, uninformed, or did so because Justin is so dreamy. For separatists, you can also add "Stockholm syndrom", "traitors" and "don't know anything about our history because the Quebec liberals changed the curriculum".

It's frankly amazing how they don't realise that many people are sick are tired of being told the world is a scary place and that they should hate or be affraid of their neighbors.

In both cases, the conclusion will probably be "we need to be even more abrasive and divisive next time!". Just like the Republicans in the states think the solution is being even more right-wing.

I guess persecution complex will do that to you...

 

[Silexx]

He does have an autographed photo of Hitler.

Completely unrelated but eh.

Yeah, but he then became BFF with Churchill, so it balances out.

 

[gutter_trash]

I've read a few colums written by separatists pundits over the weekend and they suffer from the same delusion as the conservatives. Basically, all the people who didn't vote for them are stupid, uninformed, or did so because Justin is so dreamy. For separatists, you can also add "Stockholm syndrom", "traitors" and "don't know anything about our history because the Quebec liberals changed the curriculum".

It's frankly amazing how they don't realise that many people are sick are tired of being told they should hate or be affraid of their neighbors.

In both cases, the conclusion will probably be "we need to be even more abrasive and divisive next time!". Just like the Republicans in the states think the solution is being even more right-wing.

I guess persecution complex will do that to you...

a very fair assessment of the inability of the separatist movement and Conservatives alike to look outside their bubble, blaming voters, blaming outside forces and treating everyone who does not think like them as enemies.

on this near 20th Anniversary of the 1995 Referendum, many of them have NOT LEARNED anything or done anything to improve their relations with voters in demographics who never vote for them.
Au contraire, the separatist movement doubled down and worsened their relationship with minorities since veering full ''Identity'' from Marois to PKP. Even so called ''progressive'' Ducepep toe the PQ/PKP party line for the Bloc on identity.

 

[Silexx]

For those interested: Trudeau and his family will be living at 1 Sussex Dr aka Rideau Cottage while 24 Sussex Dr gets whatever repairs they will do to make that place livable.

Rideau Cottage has traditionally been the residence for the secretary to the Governor General.

 

[SRG01]

For those interested: Trudeau and his family will be living at 1 Sussex Dr aka Rideau Cottage while 24 Sussex Dr gets whatever repairs they will do to make that place livable.

Rideau Cottage has traditionally been the residence for the secretary to the Governor General.

Oh some people were speculating that he would be living in the opposition residence. Interesting.

 

[Walpurgis]

Oh some people were speculating that he would be living in the opposition residence. Interesting.

Would you want to live with someone as petty, racist and cold as Stephen Harper? That would be so awkward.

 

[gabbo]

Oh some people were speculating that he would be living in the opposition residence. Interesting.

I feel like this is a weird joke from Conservatives about him losing the election.
Either way, I'd like to see just how bad Harper left 24

 

[Walpurgis]

I feel like this is a weird joke from Conservatives about him losing the election.
Either way, I'd like to see just how bad Harper left 24

Trudeau has a surprise waiting for him since Harper doesn't flush the toilet after he takes a dump.

 

[gutter_trash]

Trudeau has a surprise waiting for him since Harper doesn't flush the toilet after he takes a dump.

he probably flushed cat litter in the toilet ahahahaha

 

[Sean C]

For those interested: Trudeau and his family will be living at 1 Sussex Dr aka Rideau Cottage while 24 Sussex Dr gets whatever repairs they will do to make that place livable.

From various anecdotes Jean Chretien and Paul Martin have supplied, the house was already going downhill back in their day and they were too afraid of the optics to fix it, so it's nothing new -- but all that aside, I'm still amazed that Harper was willing to move his elementary school-aged children into a house whose walls are full of asbestos.

 

[gutter_trash]

From various anecdotes Jean Chretien and Paul Martin have supplied, the house was already going downhill back in their day and they were too afraid of the optics to fix it, so it's nothing new -- but all that aside, I'm still amazed that Harper was willing to move his elementary school-aged children into a house whose walls are full of asbestos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiCle1Vk4Sg

Rick Mercer visits Paul Martin at 24 Sussex (the Jean Chretien and Stephen Harper segments with Rick were funnier than with Martin)

 

[PumpkinSpice]

From various anecdotes Jean Chretien and Paul Martin have supplied, the house was already going downhill back in their day and they were too afraid of the optics to fix it, so it's nothing new -- but all that aside, I'm still amazed that Harper was willing to move his elementary school-aged children into a house whose walls are full of asbestos.

From what I can tell it's very common for old houses in Ottawa to have asbestos in the walls. As long as you don't ever touch it or drill random holes in walls, it's not dangerous. But if you need to do any major work on your house you need to move out for like a long time until it's done and have an expensive team of people to safely remove any asbestos in the area.

 

[firehawk12]

Seriously, just tear down those death traps and put in new, better houses. lol

 

[Divvy]

The leader of Canada should not be living in a asbestos ridden dump