Dangansona
Member
That's pretty cool to be above discussing video games on a video game forum.
Seriously dude, would you believe they would do it for a literary or film character?
I don't get why people say Nathan Drake is an asshole that yearns to kill people
- Thread starter The Lamp
- Start date
That's pretty cool to be above discussing video games on a video game forum.
Seriously dude, would you believe they would do it for a literary or film character?
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Yeah, how quaint of people to be discussing and analyzing a fictional character. They never do that for film or lit.
Holy Shit. My sides
Well, that's the thing, no i don't thing it fits the tone at all. The way Nathan Drake behave in the civilized world makes me thing of a normal guy, not at all like a guy like Han Solo which i can totally portray being egoistical and okay by killing people all he wants.
Contrary to Duke Nukem, it doesn't seems to be a parody either, just "a light headed adventure". Even Indiana Jones have some of justification with having nazi (which are instantaneously recognized as "bad people") in the movie.... And even that, if an Indiana Jones movie began with Indiana jumping around, killing nazis with a huge smile and his face and being "cool", it would have been a huge tone shift, i don't see how it's related to Nathan Drake.
No, the narrative is more suited for an old school Tomb Raider game with platform, puzzle and action from time to time.... And the gameplay is a very heavy Third Person Shooter instead because... Well... It sells better or Naughty Dog prefer this gameplay.
But in my opinion, you can't say the two blend that well and no, being an adventure game don't really matter that much, we all know this is "only" a video game. ( I really don't like this argument )
Astral Dog
Member
He is your typical action movie hero
Fancy Clown
Member
Why do you think this? Han Solo is probably the closest fictional character to Drake. Both are egotistical, selfish, wise-cracking thieves who have no problems killing bad guys who over the course of an adventure learn they have the capability to be heroic and selfless and it was in them all along and their jokey-carefree demeanor is actually a front they put up because they are kind of damaged individuals and it's easier for them to laugh about something than be up front about what they're feeling.
And the "it's only a video-game" excuse doesn't necessarily fly, but there is something to interpreting actions in video games differently than in movies, because how differently they function. Shooting in video games is an efficient, satisfying, understandable, and clear way for a player to interact with a story and as they act as external physical manifestations of the obstacles Nate and other video game characters overcome. So of course Indy only kills like 10 people and Nate kills 100. It works for the medium imo as a successful tool in the storytelling and player engagement, even if it creates some dissonance in cutscenes where being hit by a bullet is suddenly lethal or whatever. And I think Uncharted's blend of platforming, setpieces, and scrappy action sequences are a much better fit for the tone and subject matter of capturing the pulp action adventure tone than a pure puzzle platformer would be, and it offers the narrative higher stakes and more effective motivation for Drake to become the more heroic character by the end of the game.
AwakenedCloud
Member
What a novel idea.
In regards to Drake, it shouldn't really impact your enjoyment of the game but there is a huge cognitive dissonance between cutscene Drake and gameplay Drake.
Drake in cinematics is a snarky, generally good-hearted person. Gameplay Drake is a dick who jokes about shooting people in the head.
Saying they saved the world from the supernatural stuff in the first game is also disingenuous as they didn't know any of that going into the adventure and they were the primary cause of it getting released in the first place.
I think the problem is that the "critics" think Uncharted should be taken seriously, when most Uncharted fan would be upset if Uncharted actually started taking itself too seriously. It actually got to a point where Naughty Dog had to re-confirm to people that Uncharted would remain the way it was after the rumors of Uncharted 4 being more "serious".
It's a cartoon, is the home alone kid a psychopath because he tortures two people in so many different ways? Everything in the franchise is cartoonish, including violence, no one ever said "Uncharted should be taken seriously", a serious Uncharted would have a boring story & toned down gameplay.
It seems that the only people that take Uncharted more than it actually is (a comedy-action game) are the "mass murder" people. Nobody is under the illusion that it's actually more than it is other than "you", just like nobody takes comedy movies seriously.
It's a cartoon, is the home alone kid a psychopath because he tortures two people in so many different ways? Everything in the franchise is cartoonish, including violence, no one ever said "Uncharted should be taken seriously", a serious Uncharted would have a boring story & toned down gameplay.
It seems that the only people that take Uncharted more than it actually is (a comedy-action game) are the "mass murder" people. Nobody is under the illusion that it's actually more than it is other than "you", just like nobody takes comedy movies seriously.
clevbrowns94
Member
Have him shake hands with all the people he killed in the hospital if it bothers you. I don't see the big deal about it. It's a game that doesn't take itself too seriously, and you have to kill people to advance. You could use non-lethal means, but why would you do that when everyone is using lethal means against you? (and this would take away the suspense). And it's funny, the Last of Us has the same amount of kills, it's just that maybe half are zombies and half are humans (technically zombies are still human anyway), but no one complains about that game.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Oh, I see. Couple of dozens = OK. It only gets into "evil psychopath" if it passes an arbitrary threshold.
Are you guys being serious? When Uncharted is called "cinematic", it's in reference to the pulpy action/adventure flicks of the 80's like Indiana Jones, not Citizen Kane. LOL
Because it still glorifies violence through those sexy guns, war gadgets, etc.
I completely agree with Joe Abercrombie (a fantasy writer) on the various hypocritical ways of MGS here: http://www.joeabercrombie.com/2015/11/11/metal-gear-solid-v/
Stop being so reasonable, this is a thread about silly hyperboles and tortured logic. xD
neogaffer1
Banned
most of those games if you headshot them and left the body there someone would find it and raise the alarm so you're incentivized to move the body anyways.
TouchMyBox
Member
Play Golden Abyss on the vita if you want to understand the true monster that is Nathan Drake. He murders an entire PMC who is stationed at site who is hired by nathan's buddy who hired the PMC to rescue nate's girlfriend (with ulterior motives to also find treasure). The PMC doesn't do anything fucked up to anybody, they are just standing around and in their first encounter Nate goes "oh shit, guys with guns. I guess I better kill them". He also frequently calls them "bastards" and various names in order to rationalize his murderous rampage to himself.
We're all the heroes of our own stories, indeed.
We're all the heroes of our own stories, indeed.
TheWorthyEdge
Member
This shit is annoying. ITS A FUCKING VIDEO GAME. Seriously, stop with all this argument. It's a game, get over it. Heard it come up about Tomb Raider and that's the same shit. ITS. A. GAME.
This discussion in particular is the most ridiculous conversation. I hate it so much, and it's probably my biggest gaming pet peeve.
This discussion in particular is the most ridiculous conversation. I hate it so much, and it's probably my biggest gaming pet peeve.
CenturionKei
Banned
Why cant they just do it like MGS? Solid Snake and Big Boss kill hundreds of people, but are portrayed as physiologically fucked up in every way, borderline sociopathic, and that they "enjoy" all of it.
Venom has PTSD, and full blown demonic hallucinations because of all the people he's killed.
Venom has PTSD, and full blown demonic hallucinations because of all the people he's killed.
Colonel Nasty
Member
i would have no problem with it if its wasn't for the art style. The more realistic it looks the more unreal scenarios like this stand out. I don't buy the it's a video game arguement, you can only make a game if it involves killing? I guess it's easy filling.
TouchMyBox
Member
Ah yes, the good old "Video games, lolz" argument.
Chû Totoro
Member
OP you have your answer. Can't put it in less words than that.
ebullientprism
Member
Yearns is perhaps the wrong word. We dont know that.
But it is undebatable that he -
1 Kills an unbelievably large number of people.
2 Doesnt really seem be guilt ridden over it. Wisecracking in fact.
3 Could have avoided most of that blood bath. (stealth? different route?)
4 Keeps going on adventures repeatedly knowing fully well what will happen.
So its pretty clear that he is an asshole. And perhaps a complete psychopath. Like Lara.
But it is undebatable that he -
1 Kills an unbelievably large number of people.
2 Doesnt really seem be guilt ridden over it. Wisecracking in fact.
3 Could have avoided most of that blood bath. (stealth? different route?)
4 Keeps going on adventures repeatedly knowing fully well what will happen.
So its pretty clear that he is an asshole. And perhaps a complete psychopath. Like Lara.
I agree that the dissonance is worse in Tomb Raider, i couldn't finish the game thanks to that.
However MGS was an horrible example, since in mgs it's up to the player unlike in Uncharted, if you want you can complete pretty much any MGS game without killing anybody except bosses. Also Snake unlike Drake is an career soldier so it makes more sense for him to be in that sort of situations.
EDIT:
I actually couldn't finish Max payne 3 thanks to the story clashing with the gameplay so hard.
you killed hundreds of bad guys and in the story they didn't acknowledge it in anyway in the story. For an example in a flash back Max goes to a bar and kicks some mafia kids ass, the kid then proceeds to go and get back up and you need to shoot your way through hundreds of them.
If the story is serious enough the gameplay should reflect that too, i just can't get behind games that don't find the right balance.
I don't think "it's a video game" is a valid excuse, but Uncharted doesn't need one, the game never asked for the player to take it seriously, it's as serious as comedy action movies where everything that happens is "cartoonish".
I don't see why people are making the Indiana Jones comparison when we're talking about motivations. Indiana Jones is sent by government agents to stop the Nazis from getting their hands on a priceless historical artifact that will potentially make them unstoppable. He kills the Nazis to this end. In Temple of Doom the treasure is secondary to stopping a bunch of child slave drivers who make human sacrifices. Nathan Drake kills hundreds of thugs/mercenaries because he wants a bunch of sweet gold swag for himself.
If you're so tired of people saying that this bothered them a bit feel free to not click on the thread.
If you're so tired of people saying that this bothered them a bit feel free to not click on the thread.
Moon_frogger
Member
There's no real need to defend this guys. Clearly a lot of people feel weird about the narrative clashing with the gameplay. It's not something we just fabricated to piss off the uncharted defense force. The reason why other games don't get called out for this is because they handle it properly for the most part. Naughty dog themselves handle it much better in another of their own games, the last of us. There's a reason why people call uncharted out for all the slaughter and not last of us. Last of us tells us again and again that we have to sometimes commit horrible atrocities to survive. It's pretty much the main theme of the game. Uncharted is about 'yay, treasure' it's a deeper problem for me that uncharted relies far too much on the gunplay. I feel like the series is pretty great but it could be so much more. I think it's ridiculous that I even need to say this but obviously everything I'm posting is just an opinion. It's ok if you don't feel the Same way.
If people are truly wanting to go into the deep end, explain how Drake is a true psychopath with examples of his words and actions in the game. Has Drake ever shown true insidious intent? Placed his life and well being above his friends? Come out as the lone survivor of a confrontation with a smile on his face? Shown signs of ego-mania or implications that he was emotionally and physically manipulating everyone he surrounds himself with?
WrenchNinja
Member
That or willfully ignore that.
SlavetodaBOX
Member
Because he is a "Player."
Manny Calavera
Member
Hmm, I'm not sure if I remember the sequence you mean. I'm just actually now playing the remaster, but I'm only couple of hours in or so. I'm sure I'll notice when it comes.
At least the enemies in Indiana Jones seemed to die after a single shot... the waves and waves of bullet sponges in Uncharted totally turn me off from the whole experience. I hate bullet sponges. The Last of Us has this problem too, albeit to a lesser extent, but that game is framed around society crumbling to a kill or be killed environment and fighting tooth and nail for survival is commonplace, where Uncharted is far too lighthearted to mix well with the slaughtering.
My problem isn't a moral one, it's that the relatable Drake they present and the kind of adventure they show doesn't fit well with the hordes of enemies you kill. Plus, too many action sequences that go on for too long with mediocre action mechanics and bullet sponge enemies don't make for a fun game.
In the end, it doesn't do platforming well and it doesn't do shooting particularly well either, leaving just the set pieces and action movie vibe built on mediocre to reasonable mechanics, which is why I don't really care that much for Uncharted, despite having enjoyed 2.
In the end, it doesn't do platforming well and it doesn't do shooting particularly well either, leaving just the set pieces and action movie vibe built on mediocre to reasonable mechanics, which is why I don't really care that much for Uncharted, despite having enjoyed 2.
Boombloxer
Member
It's horseshit. He's Indy, and Indy kills people.
You could probably make a case against Mario.. not really Sonic though. Sonic breaks robots that hold other defenseless animals captive. The only deaths he's ever really responsible for are Tails... constantly...
Some of you take this way to seriously, It's ok to like a character in video games who's a mass murderer. Kirby is my favorite character, and he's arguably worse than Drake! At least Drake doesn't suffer his enemies whole to send them to some unknown dimension inside kirby's belly forever. Those poor Waddle-dees, their families will never be the same
Neuromancer
Member
Indy didn't kill thousands of people though. I mean, if we're making that comparison.
HIGH DEF JEFF
Banned
Hes no different than any video game hero that needs to shoot people.
Some thinker probably came up with this mass murderer angle on a blog and everyone likes to trot out that discussion so they have something to argue about.
Some thinker probably came up with this mass murderer angle on a blog and everyone likes to trot out that discussion so they have something to argue about.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
You could probably make a case against Mario.. not really Sonic though. Sonic breaks robots that hold other defenseless animals captive. The only deaths he's ever really responsible for are Tails... constantly...
This. LOL!
potatohead
Member
Yep.
This is almost as stupid as "why not phoenix down on Aeris?"
There's a lot of gameplay "dissonance" in FF VII also.
Why am I killing all these animals to level up my materia? That's not something "Cloud-O" is probably going to do in the real narrative.
He definitely doesn't do that in the movie.
The answer is actually "yes it's a videogame and these are the gameplay elements".
But GAF has too much of a hard-on for seeing everything that is contrary is wrong in absolute terms.
The answer is: yes, it's a fucking videogame. It needs gameplay, and Uncharted is not a survival horror game.
Look at like any game and the same problem creeps up....
Jedi Knight II.... if he's such a good jedi, why have I killed literally thousands of Imperials and massacred every base I've come across? If he's such a powerful Jedi person, can't he just sleuth his way in like in the movies to do all the objectives?
Well no you can't, it's a videogame and an action game, not a point and click adventure game.
I don't think the kill count matters that much really. That's something that you can kinda attribute as a difference in delivery media (though the games would be much, much better if there was less tedious, bullet-spongey, wave based encounters).
I haven't watched the Indy movies, but already people in this thread have given valid reasons for Indy to be killing people from the outset, whereas Drake does so for personal gain as the initial motivator.
The people after the treasure are more violent and have more evil intentions than Drake. He's basically a vigilante in some respects.
Lmao at the gun comment.
hydragonwarrior
Member
Beat him up to near death like in Batman but avoiding all his critical points. Befriend him and he becomes the awesome masked side kick named Cliff.
Maybe Uncharted needs a Pacifist run.
SolidSnakex
Member
He kills a lot in the action games based on the franchise. Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb even lets you hack enemies with a machete.
In U1 he doesn't kill anyone that isn't trying to stop him from escaping the island.
In U2 he doesn't go after Flynn and Lazarovich until Flynn gets him thrown in Turkish prison for months. At that point it's vengeance and getting back what's his from people that cheated him. People try to kill him along the way, so he shoots back. They even put in the detail of the security guard swimming to safety before this point.
Ill comment on U3 later when I'm done with it.
Manny Calavera
Member
Well that was an insightful reply and an interesting read. I agree with most of what you wrote, especially how you described Indy. I guess I personally had somehow more idolized image of Nathan Drake, I always assumed he was one of the good guys. He does seem to be caring and has some of that same charm as Indy. He even goes after Chloe when he has no reason to trust her. I guess it's how the game represents the bad guys, they all almost all the time just evil and even some of Drake's friends can't wait to betray him. I just personally think Drake is maybe a more flawed version of Indy. Maybe it just helps my identifying with Drake and maybe it also affects that Indy is still to this day probably my all time favorite movie character.
And this is where the "it's a video game" defense comes in. How is it not a valid defense? Games require gameplay. Something for the player to actually DO. It seems that some people want to restrain any game that has a somewhat realistic story with specific gameplay mechanics. That's just not how video games work. If you care that much about massive killing (or anything that doesn't jive with reality), then play games that cater to those sensibilities. They do exist.
We kill people in the game through Nathan. We get enjoyment from the game. I think gamers are the real sociopaths.
CopperPuppy
Member
It seems you have an opinion on this, and that's OK. Others also have an opinion, some of which likely differ from yours. That's OK, too. Next time, try sharing your opinion in a cogent manner instead of posting some delirious screed attempting to halt all conversation.
If you want gaming to be taken seriously as an artistic medium, this type of discussion should be embraced, even if it involves opinions that differ from yours. In fact, that's the entire point. Film and literature have evolved past this. It's fine for video games to do the same.
Oppo
Member
Of course the answer is that it's supposed to be pulp, ala Indiana Jones, + vidyagames gotta be fun, over 12ish hours...
It would be cool to see a game where they spend all that encounter design effort on, like, 6 guys that Drake has to go after and deal with over the course of the whole narrative, and are as tough as him, and have their own routines for running away and ambushing and so forth. Not 6 bosses but a combo crew of characters that do all the things NPCs do but can't really die as easily. Probably have to dial down Drake's own bullet sponginess to balance it.
edit
OR OR think of a system where combat can become stalemated and you can switch to a dialog tree to 'defeat' or unnerve the other guy, think that cellar shootout scene in Inglorious Bastards
It would be cool to see a game where they spend all that encounter design effort on, like, 6 guys that Drake has to go after and deal with over the course of the whole narrative, and are as tough as him, and have their own routines for running away and ambushing and so forth. Not 6 bosses but a combo crew of characters that do all the things NPCs do but can't really die as easily. Probably have to dial down Drake's own bullet sponginess to balance it.
edit
OR OR think of a system where combat can become stalemated and you can switch to a dialog tree to 'defeat' or unnerve the other guy, think that cellar shootout scene in Inglorious Bastards
I kind of like that some people struggle with it so much. It's a topic that is brought up in Raiders of the Lost Ark, about how Belloq and Indy are not so different, even though Indy thinks he's doing things for all the right reasons, and taking out a lot of people in the process (and not just Nazis). I don't put much serious thought into it (it's a game, it's fiction, etc.), but I think it's a quality that makes him a more complex character. It'd be boring if he was just one-note one way or the other.