NoblesseOblige
Banned
Just curious which part you disagree with. I ask because you're an insightful poster and I respect your input.
Hence me saying prevalent opposed to universal.
Otaku USA: As Geek Culture Assimilates, Otaku Remain Outcasts
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Just curious which part you disagree with. I ask because you're an insightful poster and I respect your input.
Hence me saying prevalent opposed to universal.
MHWilliams
Member
You're good people.
No problems.
If someone thinks of themselves as "otaku", which I think is rare, they've done the seperation of their own volition.
I think it's less victimization and more of a general umbrage. Some fervent anime fans currently take the "fuck you, got mine" path when it comes to anime in general. They realized that there's little chance of mainstreaming certain aspects of the content they love and feel it's better if they can just play in their sandbox alone. I find that the defense force aspect is more of a vocal minority - we're on a message board, so of course we see that here on a more regular basis. A niche sub-culture within the larger culture that wants their specific tastes to be understood and normalized. That's a road that's damn near impossible to cross, so those folks live with sort of an uphill battle. HolyBaikai was a solid example of what I'm talking about.
But by and large, the anime fans I see tend to be the one who watch the "mainstream-ish" stuff: Fairy Tail, Gundam, Naruto, One Piece, Attack on Titan. One Punch Man and Digimon Adventure Tri hit that crowd. They check in when they hear about something really popular or the next big manga adaptation, but are mostly the equivalent of the average consumer that buy little more than COD, Assassin's Creed, and Madden in a year.
So not a blanket disagreement, more of a shift in focus.
Chezzymann
Member
What? Its a lot more subjective than that. Fire emblem awakening had a little girl that said she's 1000 years old. Does that mean we shouldn't care if there's creepy romance stuff with her?
Haha, I know. I just want it to be clear! I'm a cool dude.
...Mostly.
You're good people.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This profoundly misses the point; nothing about the rape of Sansa suggests that the audience should be getting off to it.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
If you narrow your definition of "relevant anime" down enough, you can find a body of work that supports your claims. Just as if I said "All TV has sexual content", and then narrowed that down to mean "Most cable TV dramas", I'd be correct but giving a misleading picture of what's available.
Even if you do only focus on late-night TV anime, you can find plenty of examples of shows without sexual content, as I was indicating towards the end of my previous post. Let me run through a brief selective list.
Silver Spoon
Madoka Magica
Nichijou
Haibane Renmei
One Outs
Tsuritama
Skull Man
Code:Breaker
Hyouka
Kaiji
Kids on the Slope
Ping Pong
Chihayafuru
Eccentric Family
Natsume's Book of Friends
I could go on and on and on, but this should be enough examples.
I don't have time to do much digging up, but I'll point you to this post, from which you can poke around to see people's reactions more if you'd like.
gamechanger87
Member
I think some people associate too much with anime which means it becomes part of their identity. Its not just that you enjoy anime, it is part of what defines you. Then, any negative comments about it or its public perception is a direct attack on you.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
So because I have an avatar of Berserk it's a part of my personality? That's one of the silliest thing I've heard.
And no it's not prevalent in the anime community, you want a good indicator? Go to myanimelist and see which anime are the most popular, you'll see that fan service and/or moe aren't the most popular things in the anime community.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Watching Resurrection 'F' in theaters with other DBZ fans was the only time I felt like anime was mainstream. It was a great experience.
PdotMichael
Banned
Can't use terms like "anime-community" and then complain that the enitre community reacts to namecallings and stuff.
If you want to call out specific series and elements then you should also directly call out those things and not using an umbrella term like community.
You wouldn't do it in the gaming part of NeoGAF and call out all gamers when you just want to call out how people are defending the buggy mess of Fallout 4.
If you want to call out specific series and elements then you should also directly call out those things and not using an umbrella term like community.
You wouldn't do it in the gaming part of NeoGAF and call out all gamers when you just want to call out how people are defending the buggy mess of Fallout 4.
Cornbread78
Member
Maybe because the AnimeGAF community has recently been held face-to-fire because of such issues (mostly age/lewd related) that I have a different perspective. Many good members turned gray that day, which really sent shock waves. The shots from mods were heard loud and clear on what is and isn't acceptable to support and defend. That was only a few though, but to degrade an entire community of good people? I'm really surprised there are still some supporting and defending it on the gaming side as I kind of figured the word "got out" about what EvilLore's expectations of behavior are in regards to this stuff without him have to post it. Really it comes down to common sense more than anything at this point.
In regards to avatars, are you referring to every anime avatar, or just the lewd ones, because I'm wondering how anyone on earth could find mine offensive If someone wanted to make the reference of a father and a cute child with myself, I guess I could live with that association....
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I call out the gaming community as a whole all the time for its issues with women and minorities.
SliceSabre
Banned
Shh, you'll destroy their worldview if they realize the vast majority of the people watching do not like fanservice shows and they sell in terrible numbers!
PdotMichael
Banned
It appears that you have some problems.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
Huh? Just because I have a picture from Osomatsu-san as my avatar here, showing off an art style that I really like, doesn't mean I define my entire being by that show, let alone anime as a whole. I previously had an avatar here which was a cat from an obscure Famicom fortunetelling game I ran into on Chrontendo, and that didn't mean that cats, fortunetelling, video games, the Famicom, or Chrontendo took up my entire life. It was just something I thought looked neat. I don't think the viewpoint of "Whatever you put as your online avatar is what you consider most pivotal to your self" is a defensible one.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Isnt anime culture "relatively" new still in america? Like their big boom came in the 90's?
I think anime in europe doesnt carry that stigma mostly because it was mixed fast with french, spanish and italian culture since the 70's. For example anime/manga culture is bigger here than american comic books. Another example that can extrapolate to this forum and some of the things ive read here about anime avatars. Having one in a forum with mostly european people doesnt make you more outcast, just fiddling in their own communities, In contrast, even if neogaf is an interantion forum, most people are from america and ive seen lots of people treated like inferior just becuase they have an anime avatar.
I think anime in europe doesnt carry that stigma mostly because it was mixed fast with french, spanish and italian culture since the 70's. For example anime/manga culture is bigger here than american comic books. Another example that can extrapolate to this forum and some of the things ive read here about anime avatars. Having one in a forum with mostly european people doesnt make you more outcast, just fiddling in their own communities, In contrast, even if neogaf is an interantion forum, most people are from america and ive seen lots of people treated like inferior just becuase they have an anime avatar.
[Edit: see my end-of-post-thought before you jump to your guns.]
Tragic to hear re PsychoPass S02. The first was far from perfect but it dodged so many anime tropes, I loved it for that alone.
Yes - I defined in other posts on this very page that I was referring only to adult TV drama anime (indeed equivalents to Game of Thrones) and that I wasn't talking about any child/family-friendly anime or feature-length anime. Was entirely my bad for not specifying that.
Under that criteria, however, I would fully argue that PsychoPass S01 (and since we mentioned it, Mushishi) are the only adult TV drama anime I can think of that don't have any sexualisation/objectification which are shoehorned in.
The main issue is this stuff being shoehorned in, not its existence in the first place. Indeed, GoT has a bit of a problem, but probably 2/3rds of the time, the nudity/sex is contextually justified. Also, it is rarely/never glorified - it is usually portrayed as mundane and of-the-time (not always).
Compare that to something incredibly artistically rich and poignant like Neon Genesis, where more than one female character is suddenly naked or seen coming out of a bathroom, and silly music plays and they act all kerfuffled. Or its more serious and it makes a point of the main character being really embarassed and all that. Just shit like that which happens every few episodes - in shows like Sidonia it happens every ten minutes. It has no reason to be there, it doesn't build character, it doesn't build plot, it is tonally at odds with the rest of the show/scene, it isn't funny, yadda.
At least in Game of Thrones they don't turn nudity/sexuality into a pointless comedy scene - they don't objectify the women in it. Usually it's making a point about a character or place. Compare this more generally with how many great Western shows have sexualisation/nudity but they are tonally appropriate, resonant, and very handled like real life - eg the few sex scenes in The Wire or Breaking Bad, the mafia-context sex of the Sopranos, etc. I can count on my fingers the adult anime shows which do this, but I quickly run out of digits counting western shows that do.
I'm not saying they don't have problems, but it's not endemic and extreme in the way it is in anime. It's more structural sexism in Western shows.
I'm mainly spitballing at this point! If somebody comes along with a list of anime which have got none of these patterns in them, I will happily concede.
This is the sort of shit I'm talking about. Short, problematic moments in otherwise sexless anime.
Yeah, this is cool, and I'll happily stand down. Of course, I don't trust they'd all dodge what I'm talking about (very subtle moments/scenes which are problematic and just there) but I trust that they don't have structural romantic/sexual tropes built-in.
Well, the "just say they're 18" thing can only stretch so far. It comes down to plausible deniability. If characters are stated to be 18 and they're drawn a bit younger, but contextually, everyone looks like they're younger than their stated ages, that's easy to wave aside as stylization. If there's a notable presence of 18 year old (or 1000 year old) female characters that look like they're 12 cavorting around with 18 year old male characters that look comparatively much older, it's pretty clear the stated age thing is a bunch of bullshit propped up as a shield.
ZeroGravity
Member
Find me a community without those kinds of people.
Ivan Amiibo
Banned
There are tons of people who like various anime/manga who make it a point to NOT reveal that to an obvious otaku.
If you like some (or even a lot) of anime/manga but it's just part of your regular media consumption and not heavy fandom, you probably know exactly what I mean. They are very clingy and will quickly get 10x as excited as you in the conversation. Not to mention the creeps and pedos. That's why they're "outcast."
If they didn't have money, they'd be treated as poorly as bronies.
If you like some (or even a lot) of anime/manga but it's just part of your regular media consumption and not heavy fandom, you probably know exactly what I mean. They are very clingy and will quickly get 10x as excited as you in the conversation. Not to mention the creeps and pedos. That's why they're "outcast."
If they didn't have money, they'd be treated as poorly as bronies.
SliceSabre
Banned
Kinda like how people do to most 'super-fans' of something.
People treat superfans of sports, comics, video games, books, model trains and movies the same way. Anime doesn't have a monopoly on superfans.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
The reasons are obvious, they're several large budget and successful comic book adaptations, which have brought in fans to medium that wouldn't have otherwise cared and thus made it more palatable.
Without successful comic book movies and now tv series (high viewership media) I highly doubt geek culture would have assimilated anywhere near as well as it did. If there were several successful films based on anime that strange over a fairly long period of time say a decade or two, I'm sure you'd find anime as a whole be more paletable to the mainstream environment.
Comics still aren't popular, in terms of sales manga kicks it's ass every which sideways, but more palatable mainstream content based on comic books are, and there's almost no more palatable mainstream content for anime and the like. Anime itself is actually very popular probably more so than the average comic cartoon, but that medium is very limited.
Samurai champloo?
GifGafIsTheBestGaf
Member
you can buy manga/novels in amazon too (kindle), god bless
I don't watch a lot of anime, but when I do, I definitely notice the prevalence of weird, sexual stuff that would be a hard sell to most western audiences. Like recently, I watched the Netflix anime Seven Deadly Sins. It's not produced by Netflix, but I think they translated it and slapped the 'Netflix original' stamp on it. Seven minutes into the first episode, this happens (Kinda NSFW): http://imgur.com/OUnw0u4
That's the main, supposedly relatable protagonist groping an unconscious woman to confirm her "firm springiness". That's fucking weird, dude! How's a western audience supposed to react?
That's the main, supposedly relatable protagonist groping an unconscious woman to confirm her "firm springiness". That's fucking weird, dude! How's a western audience supposed to react?
……forgetit
Member
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=princesskaguya.htm
Best movie of 2014. Yet nobody gave a shit about it in the west. Japan won't make the content everyone oh so desires when you don't even fucking watch it. But I guess it's easier to just remain ignorant and hateful of an entire medium spanning decades with countless amount of shows and movies than to take the time to actually find the content that appeals to you.
But hey, don't let me interrupt your statements of the anime medium based on the initial episode of Kill la Kill.
How many times do I have to say this? I am not saying anime as a medium is nothing but upskirts of 12 y/O girls, but the stigma the medium has dur to the previously mentioned upskirts of 12 y/O girls factor into why it hasn't gotten mainstream acceptance.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This circles back around to Stump's question though: why isn't anyone doing this then? In an age when Hollywood is so desperate to tap nostalgia and greenlighting every adaption you can think of why hasn't there been some attempt at doing some Sailor Moon thing for the big screen? And we can't say "the DragonBall Z movie flopped", we had a stretch where the superhero movies coming out were the likes of Elektra and the Fantastic Four 2 and they sure kept making them
hosannainexcelsis
Member
Whaaaaaat? I'd like to see your specific breakdown of that.
If you get very broad reaching with what counts as sexism, you can find problematic elements in just about anything. Academics make careers out of that.
Also, I wouldn't conflate "romantic" and "sexual", unless you think Pride and Prejudice is demeaning towards women.
MHWilliams
Member
It was! When you create content everyone can enjoy and easily understand, it pays off.
Bingo. Niche sub-culture within the larger culture.
Yeah, Seven Deadly Sins is really not the anime I would've pick up if I worked for Netflix. Probably The Perfect Insider, or Gundam/One Punch Man if it had to be action-y. Like I said before, it's all about providing the correct gateway into the medium. You don't start someone who doesn't play games on Dark Souls or Criminal Girls. That's doing a disservice to that person.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
What does this mean?
Unless you mean "everyone can enjoy and easily understand" to mean "appeal to the lowest common denominator," I don't think that's true. I think about shows like Death Parade and their low amount of success and recognition.
There was an inferred 'sexist' there - eg 'sexist romantic and sexual tropes'
Also I cut the BeBop line - the more I thought about it the less it seemed right. BeBop definitely has these moments which I hate and which don't fit, but they are certainly not every 10 minutes. Maybe once every few episodes. They are definitely there. It's a great show overall, though.
Just for your info, this is typically the sort of thing I was referring to:
I see this in almost every anime I watch, even ones with very little romance or interest in sexual topics/themes. There are these moments that just make you go 'wait a minute, what?' which aren't questioned at all.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I don't remember implying such a community exists. Still, some are better than others.
PdotMichael
Banned
The old American problem. Animations are for children.
Dragon Ball was literally written for the 12 years old demographics and then people call it "manime" - that's so cringeworthy.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
Because for comic books movies the studio owned the rights to make movies out of them, with anime/manga they have to choose one that they think is going to be popular and on top of that deal with the owner of the properties which may not even be ok with selling them the cinematic rights of their property.
But the mainstream won't even accept the Oscar-nominated anime movies these day. If not even the top quality stuff gets noticed, what will, outside of shounen?
Principate
Saint Titanfall
You have a fair few licensing issues and several anime adaptaions have actually been stuck in development hell and never saw the light of day (Alita comes to mind and despite several years we are only now seeing concrete information about it, Parasyte was actually supposed to have a western movie adaptation but was stuck in development hell and was eventually the license was lost. There's numerous examples of this. )
Comic book movies have a precedence of success first superman and batman then blade for marvel comics, and so on making it easier for more and more stuff be green lit (and the recent marvel success almost stands by itself). There's been barely any big budget anime movies full stop so green-litting something is far more difficult.
……forgetit
Member
"Top Quality" in most mediums don't get noticed. It's usually the middle of the road stuff that anyone can relate to. That said there are anime that go mainstream, DBZ, My Neighbor Totoro, and Kiki's delivery service are 3 off the top of my head that I would call mainstream successes in the west, but the eceptance of "anime culture" as a whole lags behind.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
If there's a disconnect between the fandom and the mass audience I think its this. Even a single moment of tonally incongruous fanservice can be incredibly offputting to a lot of people, but a lot of folks who are knee deep in the medium don't recognize it because they're so used to the "random boob faceplant" scene or whatever.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Mainstream won't accept it anytime soon just as e-sports. Somebody has to put in the effort to have it changed. For stuff like e-sports it might eventually but for Anime (and I'm likely talking out of my ass so correct me if wrong) their industry is centralized in Japan and it's meant for Japan as a whole. It does well there and they've figured out how to attract their consuming audience. No need to try and change to appeal to mainstream west.
When not even the academy award puts the effort to get people who give the films a proper chance and instead resort to "my kids liked it I thought it was stupid but I don't care about this category" then shit
MHWilliams
Member
Honestly if you want mainstream appeal, you probably need to have a fairly strong action component these days. Given the language barrier, you want to quickly get at who's the good guy and bad guy in an easily relatable way. Shonen anime/manga in particular is very good at this - usually through character design -hence the general popularity of such works.
Once you've hooked them with the basic idea, then you delve into deeper territory.
For example, Marvel didn't start with Daredevil and Jessica Jones. They started with light content like Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor. Then, once they got people hooked on the basic idea, they played around with the formula a bit. Took these viewers in different directions.
Edge of Tomorrow is a great example. People watched the movie? I was able to get around 40% of my friends who watched it to read "All You Need is Kill" on Kindle. That's a gateway.
I mean, I'm sorry you have an issue with Dragon Ball Z, but hey... people actually watched it in domestic movie theatres. You see that as a problem. I see that as an opportunity. Which do you think will grow the fandom?
"Widest Release: 29 theaters"
Yeah, nobody gave a shit about it because it was hardly in theaters/marketed. Next time, have a better example?
Ivan Amiibo
Banned
It means they buy lots of shit and people who want that money don't immediately dismiss them, unlike bronies (who might have money but no merch potential unless you are somehow authorized to make MLP shit.) There are plenty of people in the anime business that aren't otaku.
And why was the release limited?
I don't give a shit what the mainstream thinks. Anime is my private hobby. It doesn't need to be popular. I'd be very well content with all the regular normal people avoiding or ignoring it.
It's not like anime will change anyway because only the Japanese otaku shill out the ridiculous high prices to buy the discs.
It's not like anime will change anyway because only the Japanese otaku shill out the ridiculous high prices to buy the discs.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
In this instance, seems more like if you create something that successfully appeals to people's childhood nostalgia, it pays off. I'm pretty sure that I, as one with no nostalgia and little exposure to Dragonball, would not find this movie easy to understand.
Yes. This. Thank you.
My whole point ITT is that even great anime shows (teen+ ones obviously) have built-in sexual objectification which is either unseen or written-off by hardcore fans. (Not every fan, obviously). There are moments which you or I don't blink an eye at, but a non-anime watcher will see as absurd/ridiculous.
I know that when I've watched certain anime with my parents or girlfriends, they've really enjoyed it until the panty shot or the boob faceplant or the nude walk-in scene happens, at which point they are immediately turned off. It's a really off-putting and inappropriate thing to happen, and I see it all the time in anime - you'd never see it in Western adult TV. Not to this extent, at least.
I don't have an issue with Dragon Ball Z and I don't see that as a problem, but I do take issue with the claim that anime that people can easily relate to and understand beget success. There are fantastic anime like this that have not found it. Now you're distilling the point to "action," which, yes, that's the appeal to the common denominator which needs it to keep their attention.
I heavily doubt fans who get into DBZ will then seek out the more thoughtful shows like a Ping Pong, Space Brothers, or Death Parade.
Intheflorsh
Banned
Doesn't matter, you can't blame people for not seeing something they didn't know about or barely even had an opportunity to get to.
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