Otaku USA: As “Geek” Culture Assimilates, “Otaku” Remain Outcasts

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Mik317

Member
I would ask why they're watching the show and what they're opinion on certain scenes are and go from there. I doubt most people would do that but instead form a judgement instead.



Of course there's anime fans who dislike Kill la Kill, they're even posting in this thread. The way I see it is the fandom just accepts these certain elements and think it can't be changed so it just stays.

The fandom accepts it because there are things they choose to focus on while those who like it can still watch the things they like.

Perfect example, I try to watch at least one episode of every new show per season (within reason). I came across Valkyrie Drive. I knew exactly what I was getting into but it still was too much for me...so I bailed super early. That doesn't mean I want it scrubbed from the internet, nor does it allow me to look down on those who are into it (for whatever reasons). Why? Because there are other things I like and I rather spend time watching those and I know it would suck if someone would waltz up to me look down on me for liking and wish it never existed. That is some lame ass shit.

Most of the anime fandom knows that there are some weird ass shit within their fandom but diferent strokes for different folks. It seems like you don't like ANY fanservice in your media...and that;s cool... I get that and trust me some things in anime annoys the fuck out of me (the fall into grope thing is the worst) but I am no better or worse for not liking those tropes..It just means I don't like it. Thats it. Let people enjoy what they enjoy.
 

Metrotab

Banned
Being more vocal online is a good start. Sure, you're not going to change it 100% but it shows commitment to not want crap. Ask conventions to not support certain shows / manga, etc. The fandom from this perspective just doesn't care so this type of content seeps out. Sakura Media in Metrotown (linked before in this thread) has a lot of pervy stuff so when people who are interested in anime go buy merchandise they're greeted with waifu pillows of young girls. The perception of anime is what it is because this is what people outside anime see.

Can't wait to see the blacklist of forbidden anime and manga.
 

Black-Box

Member
How can the Western audience change it when we don't have access to the creators and they are making these shows for a different primary audience? And how can we change the perception when attempts at pushing series that don't have these offending elements are ignored because of the ones that do? I've had a hard enough time recommending Satoshi Kon works to non-fans, of all things.

Start western studios and make shows like the Avatar.

You will never change them only anger them. They depend on fan service.
 

Tohsaka

Member
Being more vocal online is a good start. Sure, you're not going to change it 100% but it shows commitment to not want crap. Ask conventions to not support certain shows / manga, etc. The fandom from this perspective just doesn't care so this type of content seeps out. Sakura Media in Metrotown (linked before in this thread) has a lot of pervy stuff so when people who are interested in anime go buy merchandise they're greeted with waifu pillows of young girls. The perception of anime is what it is because this is what people outside anime see.

Sounds like a good way to get people to stop coming to your convention. Wanting stuff banned just because you don't like it isn't a very good position to have.
 

Kaiterra

Banned
Wanting stuff banned just because you don't like it isn't a very good position to have.

Yeah, I can't jive with that at all. I just personally avoid series that I don't see as having enough value outside of fanservice to justify watching them.

And I still don't think that'd make a difference anyway.
 
The fandom accepts it because there are things they choose to focus on while those who like it can still watch the things they like.

Perfect example, I try to watch at least one episode of every new show per season (within reason). I came across Valkyrie Drive. I knew exactly what I was getting into but it still was too much for me...so I bailed super early. That doesn't mean I want it scrubbed from the internet, nor does it allow me to look down on those who are into it (for whatever reasons). Why? Because there are other things I like and I rather spend time watching those and I know it would suck if someone would waltz up to me look down on me for liking and wish it never existed. That is some lame ass shit.

Most of the anime fandom knows that there are some weird ass shit within their fandom but diferent strokes for different folks. It seems like you don't like ANY fanservice in your media...and that;s cool... I get that and trust me some things in anime annoys the fuck out of me (the fall into grope thing is the worst) but I am no better or worse for not liking those tropes..It just means I don't like it. Thats it. Let people enjoy what they enjoy.

You can watch and read what you want but people will form opinions regardless.



Sounds like a good way to get people to stop coming to your convention. Wanting stuff banned just because you don't like it isn't a very good position to have.

Banned seems too harsh at this point but there's no conversation about it and it's one that should start. What harm does it do to the convention if they removed loli waifu pillows? Is the integrity of the con ruined?
 

mdubs

Banned
I think this is pretty accurate.

Also, thinking on it more, the biggest weakness of the thread's premise is the contention that comic-book culture was hidden away among geeks for decades until it was only recently discovered by the mainstream. It makes sense if you look at Hollywood movies, but that's a very narrow way of approaching it.

American comic books have been part of the pop culture mainstream for years. Back in the 1940s, and for decades afterwards, icons like Superman and Batman were selling close to a million issues a month, each. Superman was a big hit on TV in the 1950s, and Batman followed it in the 1970s. Spiderman was an early cartoon, and had (and still has!) his own nationally-syndicated newspaper strip. This seems like mainstream success to me.

sales.gif


Interestingly enough, in those early days anime was finding an audience of its own on Western TV, unbeknownst to its viewers. Shows like Speed Racer, Gigantor, and Kimba the White Lion were localized for US shores, and delighted children. Even my parents remembered the Gigantor theme song when it re-aired on Toonami briefly.

Even after all-ages anime stopped being disguised as something else, shows that aired on Saturday morning or on weekday afternoons earned enduring success, like Dragonball, Pokemon, and Sailor Moon. Similarly, cartoons of Batman, Spiderman, and X-Men kept those properties alive for kids even as the comic industry began imploding on itself.

The difference between what happened next, however, is in the money. Warner Brothers owned DC for ages, and comic contracts made lucrative characters the property of publishers, not creators. Even before the turn of the millennium, comic characters had seen multiple successes among broader popular culture, and they were in the hands of companies that could make big bets and reap the full rewards of their successes. The progression made business sense.

In the West, anime was in the hands of a scattered handful of companies that were trying to keep up with a boom. The large companies that held the rights to major properties generally weren't interested in making big bets on the West, and those that were got nailed hard when the market went bust in North America. The aftershocks of that are still being felt today. Daryl talks about how manga is growing year on year, but yearly revenue is still less than half of its peak of $200 million in 2007. The anime retail market is no healthier. There is still a lot of uncertainty because of the recent collapse, and no huge players who can throw lots of money at a mainstream push.

30062WhitePaper2014_19b-xlg.jpg


And going back to jiji's point, think of the licensing structure. Disney and Warner own the rights to the properties, own film studios, and are already well-integrated with merchandising. They're well-positioned to make tons of money off of every single aspect of a mainstream success. Anime, on the other hand, are largely produced these days in "production committees" consisting of multiple companies, each with their own interests. A broadcaster, an anime studio, a music label, and a manga publisher might all get together and pool their money to make a show, minimizing the risk to each if the property fails. These are ultimately conservative enterprises. The money would be fractured even further if they had to partner with a Western company to handle the distribution or creation of something focused on the Western mainstream.

A Western company could try to buy a license outright and go it alone, but there's no precedent for success, so I don't see why they'd try to probe for that uncertain vein when there are rich supplies of comic and YA properties ripe for the mining.
Quoting because this is the best post in the thread by far.

I agree, which is why I think that the best chance is for a director to pick up something as a passion project (like Del Toro with Monster) and really push it. Monster is the ideal candidate because it would adapt well live action, fits American cultural sensibilities and tastes well in terms of story and avoids the tropes.

HBO please
 
Western fans cannot do a goddamn thing to change anime unless their buying power started dwarfing and I mean dwarfing the Japanese fanbase and that's not happening anytime soon.

The people that wear their anime love on their sleeve in real life tend to be the ones who like that moe ecchi crap, same with online they tend to be the most visible and vocal fans. I watch anime but hardly anyone in real life knows this since I don't talk about it unless asked and I don't buy anime stuff, so now what happens is those weird fans end up being the "face" of people who watch anime. How do you change that? I don't know, I don't really care either.
 

Tohsaka

Member
Banned seems too harsh at this point but there's no conversation about it and it's one that should start. What harm does it do to the convention if they removed loli waifu pillows? Is the integrity of the con ruined?

Dealers' rooms are one of the big parts of conventions. People like buying stuff at cons because they don't know it's available much cheaper online in most cases. I don't even really care about this aspect because I personally don't go to cons, but if you start asking for stuff to not be allowed that's not going to sit well with most people.
 
Dealers' rooms are one of the big parts of conventions. People like buying stuff at cons because they don't know it's available much cheaper online in most cases. I don't even really care about this aspect because I personally don't go to cons, but if you start asking for stuff to not be allowed that's not going to sit well with most people.

What's the harm is not allowing questionable material involving young girls in loli uniforms in revealing poses? Doesn't that seem like a win for the community?
 
Being more vocal online is a good start. Sure, you're not going to change it 100% but it shows commitment to not want crap. Ask conventions to not support certain shows / manga, etc. The fandom from this perspective just doesn't care so this type of content seeps out. Sakura Media in Metrotown (linked before in this thread) has a lot of pervy stuff so when people who are interested in anime go buy merchandise they're greeted with waifu pillows of young girls. The perception of anime is what it is because this is what people outside anime see.

Yes, I'm sure Otakon will ban Sword Art Online cosplayers because a couple people online asked them to.

Quoting because this is the best post in the thread by far.

I agree, which is why I think that the best chance is for a director to pick up something as a passion project (like Del Toro with Monster) and really push it. Monster is the ideal candidate because it would adapt well live action, fits American cultural sensibilities and tastes well in terms of story and avoids the tropes.

HBO please

It is a good post, one that actually hits on some good subjects relative to the original linked article that this thread is supposedly about. Monster is indeed very equivalent to a Western live-action serial TV show, and if it was made into one it could be quite successful. (Might have to change the Japanese protagonist to American to get it made though.) Master Keaton, from the same author and director, would work as well, although episodic TV shows of that sort, that aren't procedurals, aren't as popular now as they used to be.

Unfortunately I believe HBO already rejected Del Toro's Monster pitch. Getting involved in a manga adaptation, where the original source material has little if any cache outside Japan and you'd have to negotiate with Japanese companies over rights and you'd have to deal with the question of hiring Asians as stars, seems like a thing few Western television channels would want to get involved in.
 
Probably because it is. And I say that as someone who stays far away from lolicon content.

I'd rather not have people like you deciding what shows are tolerable and which are "problematic" to support.

See:

What's the harm is not allowing questionable material involving young girls in loli uniforms in revealing poses? Doesn't that seem like a win for the community?

or is it a problem because something something freedom of expression something something thought police?
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
The community as a whole wants Fan Service. That is why so many anime have that beach episode.

Which brings us back around to the original argument, I feel: "geek"ness in a modern context is largely community based (which is part of why I think the term "geek" has actually sort of lost its meaning but whatever, different conversation) and if we're talking about things that keep new people from wanting to enter the anime scene and by extension the community this is a significant factor
 
Which brings us back around to the original argument, I feel: "geek"ness in a modern context is largely community based (which is part of why I think the term "geek" has actually sort of lost its meaning but whatever, different conversation) and if we're talking about things that keep new people from wanting to enter the anime scene and by extension the community this is a significant factor

Yup. I mean, despite the fact that comics sales have been largely stagnant, they are making changes to appeal to a fanbase beyond 40 year old white guys. Ms. Marvel, the lady Thor, Sam Wilson being Cap, actually getting female creators, a Power Girl that's more than a boob window, pushing Batgirl to be a series that's actually about how teenagers act in 2015, and so on, and so forth.

And yes, there's some backlash to it, and our friends over at Gamergate even tried to make Comicgate a thing. But, they ran straight into a brick wall because the leadership at those comic companies and the creators kicked the door in their face.

The problem is, the larger comics community, including creators, wants comics to change. The larger anime community, including creators, seems perfectly happy with anime as it is.
 
Again: leaving things up to the community is the reason things like all the fanservice in Trigger / Gainax productions exist unscrutinized - unaltered in future productions, rather.

Can you describe exactly how you see sexual content in anime being made to vanish? Animators like to draw it, production companies will fund it, and there are viewers who like to watch it. If you think that all needs to be stopped, how? By having the Japanese government ban it?
 

Mik317

Member
Again: leaving things up to the community is the reason things like all the fanservice in Trigger / Gainax productions exist unscrutinized - unaltered in future productions, rather.

the difference is opinion stems from the fact that most don't think they need to be altered and the fans of it aren't going to approve of those shows being altered.

again the best way for change is to promote the things you feel deserve more attention. Changing existing stuff to appeal to you is what causes all of this push back...people feel like you are taking away the things they enjoy. As stated, it seems the majority anime fanbase is either okay with the current state or not as bothered as you, the outsider are and that's kinda how the world works...the majority gets served. As such, you either just avoid the medium, or get to the things that do appeal to you. Walking in and asking for everything to change to suit your needs will ALWAYS get some pushback.
 

Klossen

Banned
Cowboy Bebop is an interesting anime that caters to the western audience and doesn't even follow a typical anime plot and just does random contained episodes similar to western cartoons up until the finale where there is a 2 or 3 parter for an ending.
I love this. It's not anime when it's good right? Then it's just a western cartoon. Same shit you'd read in gaming section where non-anime Japanese RPGs being WRPGs. I guess the west loves taking credit for shit it loves. Don't want to credit those weird Japanese people...
 

Tohsaka

Member
Again: leaving things up to the community is the reason things like all the fanservice in Trigger / Gainax productions exist unscrutinized - unaltered in future productions, rather.

Plenty of people scrutinize it. Do you think they should just stop putting sexualization in anime because some people don't like it? Anime caters to the people who are actually keeping the industry afloat: the otaku crowd. Most casual anime fans aren't spending money on $50 Blu-rays with two episodes per disc, or figures and stuff. That's what supports the industry and keeps studios' doors open. If you don't like fanservice, that's perfectly understandable, but you shouldn't expect it to just go away, because it's not going to.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
the difference is opinion stems from the fact that most don't think they need to be altered and the fans of it aren't going to approve of those shows being altered.

again the best way for change is to promote the things you feel deserve more attention. Changing existing stuff to appeal to you is what causes all of this push back...people feel like you are taking away the things they enjoy. As stated, it seems the majority anime fanbase is either okay with the current state or not as bothered as you, the outsider are and that's kinda how the world works...the majority gets served. As such, you either just avoid the medium, or get to the things that do appeal to you. Walking in and asking for everything to change to suit your needs will ALWAYS get some pushback.

So...have we answered the question in the OP then? What the existing fanbase enjoys is offputting to a larger audience to the extent that it is always going to make the community a hard sell to penetrate? Because if we can arrive at that conclusion I think that's great, but a ton of people seemingly still try to argue that the problem is that people just "haven't seen the right anime"
 
Plenty of people scrutinize it. Do you think they should just stop putting sexualization in anime because some people don't like it? Anime caters to the people who are actually keeping the industry afloat: the otaku crowd. Most casual anime fans aren't spending money on $50 Blu-rays with two episodes per disc, or figures and stuff. That's what supports the industry and keeps studios' doors open.

..and that's why anime will always be the weird guy in the corner wearing a black trenchcoat and fedora of geek culture. Because even video games are trying to advance beyond only appealing to dudes in their 20's in their basement.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
I love this. It's not anime when it's good right? Then it's just a western cartoon. Same shit you'd read in gaming section where non-anime Japanese RPGs being WRPGs. I guess the west loves taking credit for shit it loves. Don't want to credit those weird Japanese people...

What?...

Hosannainexcelsis already informed me of stuff I didn't know about its production but in no way was I saying it wasn't Japanese. It's more that it has greater western appeal due to its structure being similar to western cartoon shows. It is an anime and people see it as an anime.
 

ibyea

Banned
So...have we answered the question in the OP then? What the existing fanbase enjoys is offputting to a larger audience to the extent that it is always going to make the community a hard sell to penetrate? Because if we can arrive at that conclusion I think that's great, but a ton of people seemingly still try to argue that the problem is that people just "haven't seen the right anime"

I would personally put it as both. There is too much of the crap that is visible, and so long as so many of the shows try to appeal to the really hardcore fan, things will remain very niche, but at the same time I can think of plenty of anime released recently that is not the pervy crap. But that is the problem, there is too much crap to swim through to get hold of the good stuff.
 

Klossen

Banned
What?...

Hosannainexcelsis already informed me of stuff I didn't know about its production but in no way was I saying it wasn't Japanese. It's more that it has greater western appeal due to its structure being similar to western cartoon shows. It is an anime and people see it as an anime.
And this is false. Nothing about its structure isn't anime. You're purposely devaluing the medium by attributing its positive aspects to a different, western medium.
 
Plenty of people scrutinize it. Do you think they should just stop putting sexualization in anime because some people don't like it? Anime caters to the people who are actually keeping the industry afloat: the otaku crowd. Most casual anime fans aren't spending money on $50 Blu-rays with two episodes per disc, or figures and stuff. That's what supports the industry and keeps studios' doors open. If you don't like fanservice, that's perfectly understandable, but you shouldn't expect it to just go away, because it's not going to.

If the industry is dependent on the group responsible for propagating all the underage sexualization, then there's something inherently wrong with it. Markets can change to appease modern crowds and still remain afloat - see the advancements in the comic industry example above.

the difference is opinion stems from the fact that most don't think they need to be altered and the fans of it aren't going to approve of those shows being altered.

again the best way for change is to promote the things you feel deserve more attention. Changing existing stuff to appeal to you is what causes all of this push back...people feel like you are taking away the things they enjoy. As stated, it seems the majority anime fanbase is either okay with the current state or not as bothered as you, the outsider are and that's kinda how the world works...the majority gets served. As such, you either just avoid the medium, or get to the things that do appeal to you. Walking in and asking for everything to change to suit your needs will ALWAYS get some pushback.

Do you feel as though all the underage fanservice veiled under the guise of thousand-year-old dragons shouldn't be taken away from its fans, even though there are plenty of laws in place to avoid exploitation of minors in the real world and in most forms of media already?
 

Tohsaka

Member
..and that's why anime will always be the weird guy in the corner wearing a black trenchcoat and fedora of geek culture. Because even video games are trying to advance beyond only appealing to dudes in their 20's in their basement.

Unfortunately, most studios can't afford to just keep taking risks and working on experimental/mass-appeal shows that will bomb, if they want to stay in business. Manglobe recently filed for bankruptcy, because most of their shows sold like shit. Anime is a for-profit industry, studios can't just afford to only work on their own original stuff, that's why there are so many shitty light novel adaptions these days.
 

dity

Member
Dealers' rooms are one of the big parts of conventions. People like buying stuff at cons because they don't know it's available much cheaper online in most cases. I don't even really care about this aspect because I personally don't go to cons, but if you start asking for stuff to not be allowed that's not going to sit well with most people.
I worked with a local convention for two years (a popular one in NSW) and IIRC stuff like is being mentioned needed to be hidden away and could not be freely advertised bar for "we have 18+ content under the table." Anyone who defied the rule would be kicked out.
 

RM8

Member
I mean, if anime first and foremost tries to go after the otaku market, it's indeed going to alienate the mainstream audience - even in Japan, I like how people act like pervy anime is totally mainstream and accepted in Japan. If I can't avoid otaku pandering, I'm out, personally. It's just a matter of different levels of tolerance for such things, and how much you enjoy what's left of anime if you remove the pandering.
 
Unfortunately, most studios can't afford to just keep taking risks and working on experimental/mass-appeal shows that will bomb, if they want to stay in business. Manglobe recently filed for bankruptcy, because most of their shows sold like shit.

Maybe the various studios shouldn't have turned inward to appeal only to the otaku crowd as the years went by. It was a self fufilling prophecy - once you focus on the niche because of short term gains, you lose the possibility to expand your audience.
 

Tohsaka

Member
I worked with a local convention for two years (a popular one in NSW) and IIRC stuff like is being mentioned needed to be hidden away and could not be freely advertised bar for "we have 18+ content under the table." Anyone who defied the rule would be kicked out.

I'm not sure what Subpar_Spatula is complaining about then, if what you said is true and they don't actually display loli body pillows in public. Maybe it varies from con to con? I'm not really too knowledgeable, since I don't go to them myself.

Maybe the various studios shouldn't have turned inward to appeal only to the otaku crowd as the years went by. It was a self fufilling prophecy - once you focus on the niche because of short term gains, you lose the possibility to expand your audience.

They didn't really have a choice, unfortunately. Like I said, they can't just keep self-funding their own passion projects that no one buys unless they're already a huge studio. Anime in Japan is too expensive for the average person to want to buy on a regular basis, if they're not an otaku they likely just watch it on TV, which doesn't help the studios. Anime makes the majority of its money on merchandising and BD sales.
 

Mik317

Member
So...have we answered the question in the OP then? What the existing fanbase enjoys is offputting to a larger audience to the extent that it is always going to make the community a hard sell to penetrate? Because if we can arrive at that conclusion I think that's great, but a ton of people seemingly still try to argue that the problem is that people just "haven't seen the right anime"

yes? That doesnt change that there is a lot of good stuff and those who write off the whole medium based off of the most visible stuff is stupid. You don't do it with music despite most of what is on the radio is often considered to be garbage by many. You don't do it with games, despite the state of AAA gaming. I mean a common statement on this forum to games are bad now is "lol well looks like you don't play indie games do you". The presence of bad stuff doesn't invalidate the whole medium. I think that is what most of the ardent defenders wish to get across. The bad stuff also doesn't make it okay to call the whole fanbase sexist pedo fuckbois.

Anime is niche for a lot of reasons. The main being that is comes from a completely different culture for one so appealing to western sensibilities isn't going to happen. The other being that the folks that keep it alive are often considered outcasts (everywhere)....and at the end of the day it is a business and asking businesses to abandon that base is stupid. And beyond the business aspect, I think they deserve to have things made for them too...let them have something.
 

Paracelsus

Member
If the industry is dependent on the group responsible for propagating all the underage sexualization, then there's something inherently wrong with it. Markets can change to appease modern crowds and still remain afloat - see the advancements in the comic industry example above.

When anime makers changed demographics, you got Tiger and Bunny, Kuroko no Basket and Free!

At Comiket in Japan, the lionshare of parodies ("doujins") coming from that audience dwarfs the other content by quite the margin. It's the entire business model to be based on "fandoms", regardless of where you look. As a matter of fact, at the end of the day it's all about pandering, be it comic or manga, if you don't make x happy you make y, and sometimes to make y happy you make x unhappy (when Free was announced the male audience looking at KyoAni was fuming). There's no "everybody's happy" and there is never going to be.
 
When anime makers changed demographics, you got Tiger and Bunny, Kuroko no Basket and Free!

At Comiket in Japan, the lionshare of parodies ("doujins") coming from that audience dwarfs the other content by quite the margin. It's the entire business model to be based on "fandoms", regardless of where you look. As a matter of fact, at the end of the day it's all about pandering, be it comic or manga, if you don't make x happy you make y, and sometimes to make y happy you make x unhappy (when Free was announced the male audience looking at KyoAni was fuming). There's no "everybody's happy" and there is never going to be.

This isn't directed at you specifically, but "it's not fanservice, it's just business" isn't a valid excuse.
 

Busaiku

Member
(Might have to change the Japanese protagonist to American to get it made though.) Master Keaton, from the same author and director, would work as well, although episodic TV shows of that sort, that aren't procedurals, aren't as popular now as they used to be.

Unfortunately I believe HBO already rejected Del Toro's Monster pitch. Getting involved in a manga adaptation, where the original source material has little if any cache outside Japan and you'd have to negotiate with Japanese companies over rights and you'd have to deal with the question of hiring Asians as stars, seems like a thing few Western television channels would want to get involved in.
I said this earlier and this is exactly the problem.
You can make comic adaptations because the characters are largely white, almost all American.
You can't have Japanese casts from big studios because they won't have confidence in the product.
Like in a Ghost in the Shell thread before, people were suggesting making everyone white or something. And this has already happened prior.
At that stage, what's even the point.

Japanese media will not break into the mainstream, because they are Japanese products.
 

Shouta

Member
I worked with a local convention for two years (a popular one in NSW) and IIRC stuff like is being mentioned needed to be hidden away and could not be freely advertised bar for "we have 18+ content under the table." Anyone who defied the rule would be kicked out.

Tohsaka's point is mostly about Japan. US conventions have always been pretty strict about Adult content, it's the US after all.

Maybe the various studios shouldn't have turned inward to appeal only to the otaku crowd as the years went by. It was a self fufilling prophecy - once you focus on the niche because of short term gains, you lose the possibility to expand your audience.

They had to actually. Anime sales got worse as the years went on because of Japan's ongoing recession. The reason it's survived as long is specifically because they had a stable consumer base to fund their stuff. They actually held out a long time because this glut of smut is only relatively recent in regards to anime productions.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
And this is false. Nothing about its structure isn't anime. You're purposely devaluing the medium by attributing its positive aspects to a different, western medium.

No, all I'm saying is that I see similarities of one anime and why it has the appeal that it does in the west because of the familiarity of it. I'm not devaluing the anime medium for pointing that out, nor would I be devaluing his work for bringing it up. It's very clear how strong western influence is in Cowboy Bebop too, especially the music based from American jazz movements and culture, even the title Bebop references that.
 

sonicmj1

Member
..and that's why anime will always be the weird guy in the corner wearing a black trenchcoat and fedora of geek culture. Because even video games are trying to advance beyond only appealing to dudes in their 20's in their basement.

But anime has already advanced beyond only appealing to dudes in their 20's in their basement. This is the best-selling late-night show in Japan this year:

uta_no_prince_sama_maji_love_1000_sen_by_aliav-d4oth63.png


Chicks in their 20's in their basement are a thriving market with cash to burn.

The industry's myopic focus on its most hardcore fanatics will surely come back to harm it in the long run, but it's allowed it to endure in difficult times.
 
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