Otaku USA: As “Geek” Culture Assimilates, “Otaku” Remain Outcasts

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KLK is perverted. Most of the staff's works are. Is that a problem.

again you are condemning a whole medium off of a specific set of it. Yes there is fanservice shows . A lot even. That doesn't give you the right to shit on the whole medium and fans because of it. There is a lot of good too. There is room for all kinds.
 
Yes. We understand why she's topless and masturbating. No one understands why Ryuko's upskirt shot is done so many times. Well, we do know... the people who made it are probably perverted in some way. This kind of defense is why anime isn't taken seriously. Accept the crap and try to help people avoid it.
You're basically arguing that the American Pie scene is less explicit because it's more explicit. It makes no sense.
 
Yes. We understand why she's topless and masturbating. No one understands why Ryuko's upskirt shot is done so many times. Well, we do know... the people who made it are probably perverted in some way. This kind of defense is why anime isn't taken seriously. Accept the crap and try to help people avoid it.


Can you list 20 where young teenagers are sexy and are flaunted so obviously? I can do that with anime. Heck, one of the "better" anime of last year was No Game, No Life and the female protagonist... WOW (not in a good way).

I'm not interested in defending series that are lacking in this regard, so no thanks. Your argument is pathetic. It's like a person wearing a white T-shirt with a 3-inch spaghetti sauce stain on the chest trying to act like he's so much more clean than the guy wearing a shirt with a 6-inch stain. How about instead of playing this stupid game, you stop expecting people who recognize these problems and don't try to excuse them to expect to be considered subhuman trash because they happen to be present in the media they enjoy (or even just other media in the same medium as the media they enjoy).
 
Just because he's perverted and made a perverted show doesn't mean people should be so relaxed about it. That's the point. This is why media can't take fans or anime seriously because even the fans don't care about the giant elephant in the room.

Relaxed? I don't like Imaishi and I don't recommend his works, but I'm not going to fly to Japan and picket the Trigger studio or something. There are people who like Kill la Kill, but me complaining about it on Twitter isn't going to change their mind (plus I don't want to spend the time watching it that would be necessary to do so).

Generally I find the best course of action is to focus on promoting what is good, such as Shounen Hollywood or Showa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu, rather than focus on complaining about what is bad. It's a more pleasant experience for me, and it's a more effective way to influence others.
 
You're basically arguing that the American Pie scene is less explicit because it's more explicit. It makes no sense.

No, I'm saying there's a reason for her to be topless and masturbating. There's no reason for Ryuko's upskirt shots or her close ups. You have not told me what their actual purpose is. I've told you why she's doing what she's doing in American Pie. Let's go deeper into your comparison: throughout American Pie are there constant upskirt shots of women or very revealing shots similar to Kill la Kill? If so, can you show me some examples? I can show you plenty from Kill la Kill.

You have no argument. You do not understand what context is.
 
Log Horizon and .hack//SIGN do the whole thing so much better. SAO sucks, especially the attempted rape scene near the end of the show.

.hack//SIGN is actually everything about an MMO talking from lore, how some might use it for escape, message boards and community, friendships and combat, knowledge about enemies and people. It's slower paced than those but it does everything and everything well.

Log Horizon does quite a few things well too with community, guilds and economy of the game.

.hack//SIGN is a boring mess.

Log Horizon is GOAT.
 
No, I'm saying there's a reason for her to be topless and masturbating. There's no reason for Ryuko's upskirt shots or her close ups. You have not told me what their actual purpose is. I've told you why she's doing what she's doing in American Pie. Let's go deeper into your comparison: throughout American Pie are there constant upskirt shots of women or very revealing shots similar to Kill la Kill? If so, can you show me some examples? I can show you plenty from Kill la Kill.

You have no argument. You do not understand what context is.
And you don't understand what the word explicit means. Something doesn't get "less explicit" through context or reasons
 
Eh, what western animation lacks in animation quality I think it makes up in real characterization and dialogue. Some of the dialogue in even well regarded anime tends to make me cringe.

This. The best in anime really can't hold a candle to the best in Western narratives.
I say this as someone who loves Hajime no Ippo and consider it a special work dear to me, along with other anime.

Fuck k on though.
 
And you don't understand what the word explicit means. Something doesn't get "less explicit" through context or reasons

It doesn't make a topless person less topless but it makes it more understandable. We understand why she's doing what she's doing so we can better process it. If the movie had quick cuts of up-skirt shots or when a person is talking it was from the angle of their backside going up you would raise questions as to why.

But hey, let's just keep going in circles with trying to shoot down my argument by trying to trip me up on a definition. This, again, is why no one wants to take anime seriously because there's actually discussions past "Kill la Kill is perverted". It's not even a discussion, it's common sense.
 
I think this is pretty accurate.

Also, thinking on it more, the biggest weakness of the thread's premise is the contention that comic-book culture was hidden away among geeks for decades until it was only recently discovered by the mainstream. It makes sense if you look at Hollywood movies, but that's a very narrow way of approaching it.

American comic books have been part of the pop culture mainstream for years. Back in the 1940s, and for decades afterwards, icons like Superman and Batman were selling close to a million issues a month, each. Superman was a big hit on TV in the 1950s, and Batman followed it in the 1970s. Spiderman was an early cartoon, and had (and still has!) his own nationally-syndicated newspaper strip. This seems like mainstream success to me.

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Interestingly enough, in those early days anime was finding an audience of its own on Western TV, unbeknownst to its viewers. Shows like Speed Racer, Gigantor, and Kimba the White Lion were localized for US shores, and delighted children. Even my parents remembered the Gigantor theme song when it re-aired on Toonami briefly.

Even after all-ages anime stopped being disguised as something else, shows that aired on Saturday morning or on weekday afternoons earned enduring success, like Dragonball, Pokemon, and Sailor Moon. Similarly, cartoons of Batman, Spiderman, and X-Men kept those properties alive for kids even as the comic industry began imploding on itself.

The difference between what happened next, however, is in the money. Warner Brothers owned DC for ages, and comic contracts made lucrative characters the property of publishers, not creators. Even before the turn of the millennium, comic characters had seen multiple successes among broader popular culture, and they were in the hands of companies that could make big bets and reap the full rewards of their successes. The progression made business sense.

In the West, anime was in the hands of a scattered handful of companies that were trying to keep up with a boom. The large companies that held the rights to major properties generally weren't interested in making big bets on the West, and those that were got nailed hard when the market went bust in North America. The aftershocks of that are still being felt today. Daryl talks about how manga is growing year on year, but yearly revenue is still less than half of its peak of $200 million in 2007. The anime retail market is no healthier. There is still a lot of uncertainty because of the recent collapse, and no huge players who can throw lots of money at a mainstream push.

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And going back to jiji's point, think of the licensing structure. Disney and Warner own the rights to the properties, own film studios, and are already well-integrated with merchandising. They're well-positioned to make tons of money off of every single aspect of a mainstream success. Anime, on the other hand, are largely produced these days in "production committees" consisting of multiple companies, each with their own interests. A broadcaster, an anime studio, a music label, and a manga publisher might all get together and pool their money to make a show, minimizing the risk to each if the property fails. These are ultimately conservative enterprises. The money would be fractured even further if they had to partner with a Western company to handle the distribution or creation of something focused on the Western mainstream.

A Western company could try to buy a license outright and go it alone, but there's no precedent for success, so I don't see why they'd try to probe for that uncertain vein when there are rich supplies of comic and YA properties ripe for the mining.

It's been a fun ride but I appreciate this post.

I'm curious how concentrated manga sales are in their top titles (and the same for comics, really.) I'm friends with some people in shops and a lot of them say they tried to order manga for a time, but it just sits, which is surprising to me given the numbers. It definitely seems like the biggest manga is bigger than the biggest comic titles, but perhaps the people buying them aren't trying things outside of those top 10 or 20 titles?

For real though, 20 years ago, comics were not really a part of my life as a kid. I read a lot of actual books back in the day, but barely touched a comic, even when I would find myself in stores to grab Magic cards later on. I personally know very few people who were into comics then and stuck with it or got back into it later. We were all into the X-Men from the show and the Genesis game (yes, really.) So it's easier for me to believe that they ran well under the mainstream consciousness, even as influential and large as they were up through the 80's.

What's really wild to me is how popular the characters/universes themselves are becoming and that success not translating to the actual base product. It's really the opposite of what you would expect.
 
But don't you understand, the show is cute. It's CUTE. The worst sin an anime can make. It's just a portal to depravity and sin. Everybody knows that if Japan produces anything cute, it has twisted, alternative motives and can't nor was intended for consumption by a wide audience - only pervert otakus!
For those unaware, I'm being hyperbolic but boy do way too many people believe something really close to what I just said up there



A) Are you talking about smears? That's a standard animation technique. Hell if you look at the work of Wayforward and Lab Zero, American animation teams, you'll find a lot of appropriate smears too.That's a feature, not a bug.

B) Er character acting totally is a part of animation. Body language is a real thing and can communicate a lot of information to the viewer. It's not something that is well utilized in cheaper/rushed productions but its all over the place in higher quality programs. Like you said you watched Space Dandy right? Character acting through animation was ALL OVER that show. It's part of what made the show so well animated.



I'll truncate it as this - the mean animation quality in your average Western produced cartoon is much higher than the mean animation quality in your average Japanese anime but you get highs in anime - be they entire shows or particular cuts in average shows - that would don't see (or very rarely - I miss you Genndy!) in Western productions. Part of it is stylistic - I can admit that The Adventures of Gumball is well animated even if stylistically the show doesn't do much for me.

As an aside, I will say it feels a bit disappointing that often in anime, I can immediately tell who has animated a particular cut in an anime but the same often can't be said in a cartoon. I'm not sure how much if that is animation culture and how much of its is styles - there is a stronger sense to unify styles across animators in Western TV shows.

It's not that it's cute. It's that nothing fucking happens. It repeats the same boring cuteness beats over and over. The theme song is way too exciting for the snoozefest of that show. I wanted to like it, but ehhhhhh not worth bothering.

Western audiences like conflict and drama (please note, these are not synonyms for histrionic and melodramatic). Moe has, like, none.
 
It's like saying porn with a story is less explicit because there's a reason the pizza guy showed up.

This actually sort of works in his favor. Pizza guy porn is still porn no matter how they put the veneer of story over it whereas something like the movie in question is attempting to use the sexual activity as part of a larger thesis about sexuality. Pizza guy porn is KLK in this metaphor (well, until the back half of that show, then we're having an entirely different conversation)

(although the film does skate close to and sometimes over the indulgence line)
 
It doesn't make a topless person less topless but it makes it more understandable. We understand why she's doing what she's doing so we can better process it. If the movie had quick cuts of up-skirt shots or when a person is talking it was from the angle of their backside going up you would raise questions as to why.

But hey, let's just keep going in circles with trying to shoot down my argument by trying to trip me up on a definition. This, again, is why no one wants to take anime seriously because there's actually discussions past "Kill la Kill is perverted". It's not even a discussion, it's common sense.
Dude, you specifically said
I'm OK with that. Those teen comedies aren't being as detailed. There is a difference between alluding to teenagers having sex and having a sexy body to "let's depict her vagina so clearly when she transforms."
The whole tantrum was just about that. yes teen comedies are indeed as detailed, if not even more so by actually showing nipples. But somehow are context and reason making those scenes less explicit.

And hell, who is even arguing that kill la kill is not perverted? The point was just that this isn't something you can exclusively ascribe to anime.
 
I'd say a good reason for this can be found in that "recommend anime to curious people" thread now. Some people recommending some odd stuff in there. Feels like sometimes a lot of the more hardcore don't know how to view the medium from an outside perspective.

As a big gamer and Souls fan, if a casual or curious gamer asked for a recommendation, I'd probably not recommend Dark Souls right off the bat.
 
Dude, you specifically said

The whole tantrum was just about that. yes teen comedies are indeed as detailed, if not even more so by actually showing nipples. But somehow are context and reason making those scenes less explicit.

And hell, who is even arguing that kill la kill is not perverted? The point was just that this isn't something you can exclusively ascribe to anime.

But anime is unusual in how infrequently it seems interested in contextualization or examination. That's sort of why I don't like pitting example vs example, and why I've mostly stayed out of this specific exchange, but that really is what turns me off "fanservice" and "pervert moments" when they come up, context is so frequently so shallow or nonexistent.
 
And hell, who is even arguing that kill la kill is not perverted? The point was just that this isn't something you can exclusively ascribe to anime.

Yeah, it's not like this is all something anime fans don't know. But what do you want us to do about it? All anime fans can really do is support works that are more measured in their presentation and content while recognizing and admitting the faults in those that aren't. But when we all get painted with the PEDO PERVERT!!!! brush for so much as making an anime character our avatar, well that doesn't even seem like it helps.
 
I'd say a good reason for this can be found in that "recommend anime to curious people" thread now. Some people recommending some odd stuff in there. Feels like sometimes a lot of the more hardcore don't know how to view the medium from an outside perspective.

This is why I always opt to avoid recommending the odd and weird stuff and ask what sort of things they're in to and go from that. Most cases they're not into that stuff. I can recommend Cowboy Bebop, but one friend of mine wasn't into that kind of show but they do like mystery and psychological and absolutely loved Monster.
 
But anime is unusual in how infrequently it seems interested in contextualization or examination. That's sort of why I don't like pitting example vs example, and why I've mostly stayed out of this specific exchange, but that really is what turns me off "fanservice" and "pervert moments" when they come up, context is so frequently so shallow or nonexistent.
I can understand this when it's in shows where you basically don't see it coming. Something like Kill la kill makes pretty clear from the get go what to expect.
 
Dude, you specifically said

The whole tantrum was just about that. yes teen comedies are indeed as detailed, if not even more so by actually showing nipples. But somehow are context and reason making those scenes less explicit.

And hell, who is even arguing that kill la kill is not perverted? The point was just that this isn't something you can exclusively ascribe to anime.

Teen comedies show nudity but we understand why and it's not prevalent throughout the entire work where we see certain angle shots. You're so focused on the explicit part that you're trying really hard to avoid what my point is.

I wouldn't say people are exactly saying Kill la Kill isn't perverted but there's this relaxed attitude when it comes to it where people would recommend it to others like it's no big thing. It's not 100% in defense of the show but it shows it is acceptable despite its issues, and that, to me, is why a lot of people outside the anime bubble don't want to be part of it: your tastes are questionable to a lot.
 
How about the true A.O.A.T show from the people who made KLK


INFERNO COP!

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I still never found out why in KLK
The incest rape scene happened... really it was really out there and i'm for lewd... but that was just out there and wayyyyy out of place.
 
Teen comedies show nudity but we understand why and it's not prevalent throughout the entire work where we see certain angle shots. You're so focused on the explicit part that you're trying really hard to avoid what my point is.

I wouldn't say people are exactly saying Kill la Kill isn't perverted but there's this relaxed attitude when it comes to it where people would recommend it to others like it's no big thing. It's not 100% in defense of the show but it shows it is acceptable despite its issues, and that, to me, is why a lot of people outside the anime bubble don't want to be part of it: your tastes are questionable to a lot.
To that I can only say that I haven't really seen that. Personally it's the last thing I'd recommend if I'm giving serious advice, and even then it would come with lots of "but it's still good" added
 
Teen comedies are dumb and tacky, and I don't watch them. "It's better than American Pie" is not really a selling point, lol.
 
Teen comedies show nudity but we understand why and it's not prevalent throughout the entire work where we see certain angle shots. You're so focused on the explicit part that you're trying really hard to avoid what my point is.

I wouldn't say people are exactly saying Kill la Kill isn't perverted but there's this relaxed attitude when it comes to it where people would recommend it to others like it's no big thing. It's not 100% in defense of the show but it shows it is acceptable despite its issues, and that, to me, is why a lot of people outside the anime bubble don't want to be part of it: your tastes are questionable to a lot.

I'd recommend Kill La Kill to other people who are already anime fans, but I'd let them know what they're getting into. I don't think it's wrong to watch and enjoy trashy shows if you can admit their flaws and admit they're trashy. I mean even as a fan who appreciates series like that, I've in recent times had to drop series like Seven Deadly Sins, Oreimo, A Certain Magical Index II, Shokugeki no Soma and others for turning out to be over the line of what I thought I was getting into.

My question for you is that, to anime fans, what do you expect from us in regards to this? There has to be some way that we can be enthusiastic about the medium without having to constantly hear about how terrible the medium is and we are for being fans because of Ryuko Matoi's cameltoe.

As was pointed out earlier in the thread, the fact that the creators are all in another country and producing primarily for that market are probably the biggest obstacle in overcoming hurdles like that, because the feedback just isn't going to get to them or impact their bottom line. If only there were more serious efforts at teen and adult focused animation in the West. There's totally an audience for it.
 
Makes sense to me.

Edit:

I mean there are some great ones out there but it seems like most of what filters through and is popularly consumed by those types is...yeah.
 
To that I can only say that I haven't really seen that. Personally it's the last thing I'd recommend if I'm giving serious advice, and even then it would come with lots of "but it's still good" added

Well, yeah, GAF is more tame than a lot of the other anime websites, I would assume people are more level headed here with what they say and do; however, elsewhere it's not the same situation. It's not the world's greatest barometer but we can see how acceptable certain traits are with clubs: Monster currently has 176,398 members on MyAnimeList while Kill la Kill has 346,937. While Monster is rated higher on the site you can see where a lot of fans like to throw in. This kind of action kind of says to people, "it's popular! let's make more!" In short, not much of the fandom is actually going against these tropes and that kind of relaxed attitude allows for this to happen.
 
Well, yeah, GAF is more tame than a lot of the other anime websites, I would assume people are more level headed here with what they say and do; however, elsewhere it's not the same situation. It's not the world's greatest barometer but we can see how acceptable certain traits are with clubs: Monster currently has 176,398 members on MyAnimeList while Kill la Kill has 346,937. While Monster is rated higher on the site you can see where a lot of fans like to throw in. This kind of action kind of says to people, "it's popular! let's make more!" In short, not much of the fandom is actually going against these tropes and that kind of relaxed attitude allows for this to happen.

again I think you are missing why KLK is popular. Its studio triggers first series for one and it made by a team that is well liked in the industry. I don't think many are fans of KLK because of the fanservice.
 
This is Rory Mercury from Gate, it came out this year. She's 961. She looks young and wears a gothic loli priest garb. If she doesn't kill people she has a strong urge to bang people (she wants to bang the protagonist). She tries on multiple occasions according to the wiki.

I can pull more examples just from this year. There are plenty.

I'm not seeing your point? You clearly just said she's 961, so there's not really a problematic element to this working in your favor. Unless you were conceding that Japan is better at handling mature concepts that Western media are too insecure to tackle, in which case I agree.
 
I'm not seeing your point? You clearly just said she's 961, so there's not really a problematic element to this working in your favor. Unless you were conceding that Japan is better at handling mature concepts that Western media are too insecure to tackle, in which case I agree.

come on dawg.

I like anime and think dude is doing the most right now...but the whole "oh I am actually 434343343 years old" trope is dumb and obvious.
 
Like, if I recognize that the T&A is exploitative and bad storytelling, am I still not allowed to like Kill La Kill for its battles and characters and music and visual gags and all the other reasons I love it without having to be called a creep? If I readily admit that Rory Mercury kinda creeps me out and its politics are all kinds of fucked up, does that mean I still can't enjoy watching GATE for the novelty of its mish-mash of modern day military technology and fantasy knights and dragons without having to take the blame for propagating problematic ideas? Is it acceptable to criticize and still enjoy a work despite its flaws or is the only acceptable course of action to shun it entirely and swear off the medium lest I be judged as endorsing the entirety of it?

come on dawg.

I like anime and think dude is doing the most right now...but the whole "oh I am actually 434343343 years old" trope is dumb and obvious.

I think Sub-Zero was being sarcastic.
 
I barely speak about anime with other people in real life, but I wouldn't recommend Kill La Kill in public because of its fanservice content.

It's a show produced for the otaku market (I'd reckon, I know little of anime production), and so I would only recommend it on 'otaku websites' to people I deem to have regular interest and knowledge of currently airing anime (AnimeGAF for example), and thus can place it better than non-regular anime watchers can.
 
I'm not seeing your point? You clearly just said she's 961, so there's not really a problematic element to this working in your favor. Unless you were conceding that Japan is better at handling mature concepts that Western media are too insecure to tackle, in which case I agree.

It's actually amusing he brings up Rory Mercury because her popularity recently is because she actually goes against the 1000 year old, dragon loli trope. She's not a child by any means within the story of GATE in manner or actions. She laments her age within the story because she's had to watch everyone around her wither and die. No one that knows her treats her so in the story either, heh.
 
again I think you are missing why KLK is popular. Its studio triggers first series for one and it made by a team that is well liked in the industry. I don't think many are fans of KLK because of the fanservice.

First TV series... its got inferno cop and little witch acadamia before it, LWA had nice animation.
 
I wouldn't recommend KLK because I didn't like it.

Somehow my friends and family somehow find SAO and Guilty Crown without me getting involved.

But yeah. I had trouble suggesting Grave of the Fireflies to my mother so I don't really bother with suggestions
 
Like, if I recognize that the T&A is exploitative and bad storytelling, am I still not allowed to like Kill La Kill for its battles and characters and music and visual gags and all the other reasons I love it without having to be called a creep? If I readily admit that Rory Mercury kinda creeps me out and its politics are all kinds of fucked up, does that mean I still can't enjoy watching GATE for the novelty of its mish-mash of modern day military technology and fantasy knights and dragons without having to take the blame for propagating problematic ideas? Is it acceptable to criticize and still enjoy a work despite its flaws or is the only acceptable course of action to shun it entirely and swear off the medium lest I be judged as endorsing the entirety of it?



I think Sub-Zero was being sarcastic.

You can watch it, you're allowed to do that, but you have to understand people will question why you still watch those certain shows when they contain certain pervy elements. Your answer is your own. People will form their opinions.
 
I mean Subpar Spatula's point is not wrong.

It's all about how you frame something and what kind of tone you're setting via e.g. lighting and music. Of course the series' or film's context is also very important to a single scene. When I was watching American Beauty I did not feel like I'm supposed to find any of it titillating.

Kill la Kill has has plenty framing that can hardly be justified as anything other than attempting to titillate. Even though hypersexualization might be a point in Kill la Kill, those random creeper shots don't do anything in that regard.
 
So I'm not allowed to without being labeled, is what you're saying.

It's a murky area, I think. People will form opinions about others based on what they do. What should be the realistic response to seeing a young adult or 30-year-old watching Kill la Kill or another show with perverted scenes for the sake of being perverted? I honestly don't know. It's very difficult.
 
It's a murky area, I think. People will form opinions about others based on what they do. What should be the realistic response to seeing a young adult or 30-year-old watching Kill la Kill or another show with perverted scenes for the sake of being perverted? I honestly don't know. It's very difficult.

What's your opinion on them?
 
Well, yeah, GAF is more tame than a lot of the other anime websites, I would assume people are more level headed here with what they say and do; however, elsewhere it's not the same situation. It's not the world's greatest barometer but we can see how acceptable certain traits are with clubs: Monster currently has 176,398 members on MyAnimeList while Kill la Kill has 346,937. While Monster is rated higher on the site you can see where a lot of fans like to throw in. This kind of action kind of says to people, "it's popular! let's make more!" In short, not much of the fandom is actually going against these tropes and that kind of relaxed attitude allows for this to happen.

Yes, it shows that newer series will have more of the MAL userbase checking them out and adding them to their list on the site than older shows. If I look at the list of most popular anime on MAL, I see lots of questionable things towards the top: Death Note, Sword Art Online, Angel Beats (ew), Naruto, Bleach, Elfen Lied (shudder), and what is Mirai Nikki doing there? But popularity among Western anime fandom, many of whom are spending little if any money of anime, does not affect Japanese companies much, and of course the fact that bad things are popular does not make good things not exist. Talking about "allowing this to happen" is ludicrous, as if I could have done something to prevent Kill la Kill from being made. Believe me, if I could do something to stop bad anime from being made, I would!

Anyway, if you refuse to acknowledge that there are anime fans who don't like KLK, who don't watch KLK, who don't recommend KLK, who in fact are occupied with a completely different set of anime, then it is high past time I bow out of this fruitless discussion.
 
What's your opinion on them?

I would ask why they're watching the show and what they're opinion on certain scenes are and go from there. I doubt most people would do that but instead form a judgement instead.

Yes, it shows that newer series will have more of the MAL userbase checking them out and adding them to their list on the site than older shows. If I look at the list of most popular anime on MAL, I see lots of questionable things towards the top: Death Note, Sword Art Online, Angel Beats (ew), Naruto, Bleach, Elfen Lied (shudder), and what is Mirai Nikki doing there? But popularity among Western anime fandom, many of whom are spending little if any money of anime, does not affect Japanese companies much, and of course the fact that bad things are popular does not make good things not exist. Talking about "allowing this to happen" is ludicrous, as if I could have done something to prevent Kill la Kill from being made. Believe me, if I could do something to stop bad anime from being made, I would!

Anyway, if you refuse to acknowledge that there are anime fans who don't like KLK, who don't watch KLK, who don't recommend KLK, who in fact are occupied with a completely different set of anime, then it is high past time I bow out of this fruitless discussion.

Of course there's anime fans who dislike Kill la Kill, they're even posting in this thread. The way I see it is the fandom just accepts these certain elements and think it can't be changed so it just stays.
 
Isn't directly asking you why you watch X show the opposite thing to labeling you?

If I was ever asked that, sincerely, without some kind of judgment about my moral character or sexual proclivities before I ever provided an answer, and my answer was acceptable whether it was agreed with or not, then it would be different from my typical experience.

Of course there's anime fans who dislike Kill la Kill, they're even posting in this thread. The way I see it is the fandom just accepts these certain elements and think it can't be changed so it just stays.

How can the Western audience change it when we don't have access to the creators and they are making these shows for a different primary audience? And how can we change the perception when attempts at pushing series that don't have these offending elements are ignored because of the ones that do? I've had a hard enough time recommending Satoshi Kon works to non-fans, of all things.
 
How can the Western audience change it when we don't have access to the creators and they are making these shows for a different primary audience? And how can we change the perception when attempts at pushing series that don't have these offending elements are ignored because of the ones that do?

Being more vocal online is a good start. Sure, you're not going to change it 100% but it shows commitment to not want crap. Ask conventions to not support certain shows / manga, etc. The fandom from this perspective just doesn't care so this type of content seeps out. Sakura Media in Metrotown (linked before in this thread) has a lot of pervy stuff so when people who are interested in anime go buy merchandise they're greeted with waifu pillows of young girls. The perception of anime is what it is because this is what people outside anime see.
 
Regarding outward opinions: there's a pretty big difference in the interpretations of "I like KLK despite all the weird fanservice" and "there are parts of KLK I like but the weird fanservice stuff holds me back from appreciating it as much as I could." The former constitutes more of a part-of-the-problem sort of mindset that just lets that stuff happen to the detriment of what could be way more tolerable content, whereas the latter suggests an actual correction needs to be made.
 
Good. I'd hate to see one of my favorite things get westernized. I've all but given up on Japanese videogames.
 
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