Support NeoGAF

[Phu]

You never posted in this thread to begin with, so thanks for telling us you stop now?

I did, but since you pointed it out I checked my post history and it appears to have gotten deleted.

The content of my post was basically disagreeing with people using accusatory and derogatory terms towards others (e.g. pedophile). A post I referenced appears to be gone as well so that may be why my post is gone as well. I've also encountered near identical behavior in other recent threads and they never go anywhere so I'm going to focus more on threads that do.

 

[CamHostage]

First off, I believe Xenoblade Chronicle X's censorship of the character creation or Fatal Frame's extra costume censorship is part of the growing trend. I don't think there are too many specific cases surrounding localization yet, but I think it'll grow with time. I think this is the tip of the iceberg in terms of companies becoming shy about their more sexual properties and bringing them to the west.

Well, it's a growing trend because of growing desperation in the Japanese game development industry.

There's always been a certain percentage of sexual fanservice in Japanese games and other media, but with international business drying up and the domestic product being crowded out by popular and cost-effective foreign product, they're putting in more risque material into traditional titles in order to stand out (because you're not going to find bikini babydoll nighties in Call of Duty or Uncharted) and perhaps license out merch. That, and also product tended to move so fast and plentiful that cheeseball content flew under the radar as a joke and titillation-oriented product had its own niche; now we're not seeing that much Japanese product on store shelves (and only a percentage of their mobile or digital product is sold internationally,) and the games that do are either so fanservicey that it's not a question who it's for or are so mainstream that they have to be strong sellers in order to succeed but have elements in them that might not be appropriate for the broad audience that they must target.

We will likely see a few unfortunate casualties where publishers get gunshy about fanservicey elements or products since they have so little else in their portfolio to pad out their rep. That sucks, and we're in that learning/arguing point right now where feelings will be hurt and hard choices will be made and nobody will be happy no matter what direction things swing. But "censorship" is unlikely to take off as an epidemic. Publishers that market in this demographic sensibly will continue to have a run at it, and the few games that do have marginal edits will lead to standards for what's questionable and what's appropriate for international release. It's all still online in image and video form even if it gets cut out of the domestic release, let's not worry that the children of our future won't have enough boobies to masturbate to...

 

[PsychoSoldier]

Since they already have an English translation, they had a guarantee for a profit if they just released it digital only on PSN without running any commercials. Then, the only cost involved would be paying someone within the company to make the PSN assets and paying for the age rating. I doubt you want to claim those costs could realistically not be recouped.

Let's say this is true and that the only thing keeping it from releasing here is their concern about how the game will be perceived by people in the United States regarding its creepiness or lewdness or whatever.

Considering there is no organized resistance to this game actually coming out here, could it simply be them believing that the norms and attitudes on sexualized imagery of young girls has shifted somewhat since they last released an Xtreme game? That could be a reasonable point of view, but it is not, as PA have asserted, some kind of SJW-backed conspiracy to keep the game from coming out here. There are some strong voices that may have influenced that change but societal attitudes on various things shift all the time.

 

[Valdfellgar]

Regarding XBX I feel it's important to separate Lin's swimsuit edits from the removal of the breast slider, the latter of which is the thing that pissed off most people here. I feel the former was understandable.

Regarding FF I do remember a bikini outfit in FF2, and the protag was 15 there IIRC. However, I think NOE took that out when they brought it to Europe, so FFV's censorship isn't really evidence of a "growing trend," as he claimed.

I think it sucks ass, but yes, it's more a case of Nintendo sucking ass the way they've always sucked ass, rather than a new way of sucking ass.

I didn't know that about Fatal Frame, so I'll stand corrected. Thank you for pointing that out. I do however still feel we're going to be looking at more companies being antsy about bringing their content over and not just KT. But I guess I'll be either proven wrong or right depending upon what the future holds.

And I agree on the Xenoblade part. Though, I do think Nintendo may be cracking down harder than previously, unfortunately Xeno doesn't have a great 80s/90s comparison for how Nintendo of old might be handled this, if there indeed would've been a difference.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

im pretty sure there are a lot of firms who pay good money specifically to get people to follow them on social media.

Yup, and sometimes those social media sites wise up and nuke out your paid-for, fake ass followers.

 

[Silexx]

First off, I believe Xenoblade Chronicle X's censorship of the character creation or Fatal Frame's extra costume censorship is part of the growing trend. I don't think there are too many specific cases surrounding localization yet, but I think it'll grow with time. I think this is the tip of the iceberg in terms of companies becoming shy about their more sexual properties and bringing them to the west.

I think though that companies like X seed may capitalize on this and end up "saving" some of these games for the Western market.

Shaming happens in most Gaf or really any internet boards surrounding the more lewd games coming from Japan, like Senran Kagura. I've seen enough people called disgusting perverts or degenerates or other variations (both directly and generalized) over the last few years to see there's quite a lot of shaming even just here. But it's a wide spread issue, not a Gaf centric issue.

It's part of why games like Criminal Girls and the like became banned topics as neither side of the issue could be civil.

As for people who would buy but don't because of shaming, I have no idea. I'm sure someone has felt judged enough to not grab up on a purchase, but I'm not contending that's anywhere close to a wide spread issue. I honestly have no idea if anyone has been shamed to the point of not buying the game, but that's also not my point. My point is more it isn't right or productive to make people feel shameful about their interests.

And now we're getting to the crux of the issue: You seem to be bending over backwards to paint an elaborate portrait which contains a version of reality wherein the cultural circumstances and context somehow justify the stance that 'PC culture has gone too far' and is adversely affecting Japanese publishers from localizing certain games due to this cultural climate.

Except your portrait has no real basis for this. There is no trend of games being held or 'censored' for fear of backlash. This is no demonstrable evidence that people are being 'shamed' into not buying games that they would otherwise enjoy because they get called 'perverts' on the internet.

Perhaps we need to consider that maybe, just maybe, there is a cost-benefit to exporting, localizing and releasing niche products and that some of these publishers do not believe that they can find a sizeable enough audience that will justify the expenses.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

also I think people on twitter have more sway to these companies than you think...even if they don't. SNK probably will cut off comments on any upcoming KOF videos. Its a tactic companies do all the time. Even if the bad press ironically raised sells in the past (and currently), companies aren't too please to have "this game is for fucking losers" tied to their product when searched. That is simple business.

I'm still amazed the official Nintendo channel has kept the comments up for the Federation Force reveal trailer. The hate for that when you look it up is huge.

 

[Yoshi]

Has anyone really talked about a conspiracy? I certainly haven't.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I mean people are skeptical. For one they released the past games in the series and all of those got backlash but that didn't stop them from continuing to release them. Also plenty of other perverted games have been released. People are saying that they are niche but so is DOAX. The problem is that so many people are blaming "SJWs" for this when it is completely Koei's decision. They chose to be pussies and not to release the game. If people want to get mad, get mad at them.

I just jumped into this thread, but surely you can see the irony of saying that SJWs, or pressure from potential backlash was a small factor, and then go on to call them "pussies" which I doubt you would've done if the decision was purely financial

 

[Sagely]

Exactly: the sport itself is not sexual and there isn't a sexual situation out on the sand, yet people are watching the sport because the female players' bodies bounce as they play. I would say the situation is one where "women are being ogled in a non-sexual situation.

And there is nothing inherently wrong with attractive people playing sports and people being attracted to attractive people playing sports. But when the sport is reduced down to only it's titillation and people are saying the "visuals [of the girls] and booty physics" is the most important aspect, that is when I think there starts to be a problem.

The vilification of open sexuality is a huge part of why healthy sexual content is frowned upon and ironicallly as a result these hyper-sexualizations of non-sexual situations are so prevalent to the point where unhealthy attitudes based exclusively off the modelling of these hyper-sexualized non-sexual situations are becoming endemic: as society rejects straightforward sex on favor of sexualizing the non-sexual to the highest degree it is warping societal expectations in a malignant way.

I agree with you 100% on this. It's a real shame that sex negativity is so prevalent to the point where objectification in non-sexual scenarios is mistaken for sex positivity. I'm all for more sexual content in our media - more that depicts sex in a healthy way and not one-sided, forced or devoid of context. Sadly, it still isn't normalised yet and that causes a ton of problems like the ones you mentioned.

As such, I don't personally have a problem with DOAX because it seems to be honest about what it is, and I find this much less troubling than sexualisation creeping into otherwise straight-faced games. That said, it's still part of a broad issue regarding sexualisation and our attitudes towards it; and I think K-T might have become aware of this since they realise that DOAX3 could be criticized for its content (despite there being no campaigns against it).

 

[freeofgreed]

I just jumped into this thread, but surely you can see the irony of saying that SJWs, or pressure from potential backlash was a small factor, and then go on to call them "pussies" which I doubt you would've done if the decision was purely financial

Did I say this? I said people are skeptical of their reasoning. Also me calling them "pussies" was more of a jab towards the people who are blaming "SJWs" for it not coming out. Don't take that too seriously.

 

[Valdfellgar]

And now we're getting to the crux of the issue: You seem to be bending over backwards to paint an elaborate portrait which contains a version of reality wherein the cultural circumstances and context somehow justify the stance that 'PC culture has gone too far' and is adversely affecting Japanese publishers from localizing certain games due to this cultural climate.

Except your portrait has no real basis for this. There is no trend of games being held or 'censored' for fear of backlash. This is no demonstrable evidence that people are being 'shamed' into not buying games that they would otherwise enjoy because they get called 'perverts' on the internet.

Perhaps we need to consider that maybe, just maybe, there is a cost-benefit to exporting, localizing and releasing niche products and that some of these publishers do not believe that they can find a sizeable enough audience that will justify the expenses.

I think they would've said so rather than claim they wanted to avoid controversy. Seems you're blatantly ignoring the Facebook statement they released, which I'm inclined to believe as other companies have beaten around the bush of localizing an underperforming game without resorting to blaming someone else. Look at Nintendo's statements surrounding avoiding localizing the original Xenoblade. I think Koei really does just want to avoid the discussion. I've also said that I care less about the companies and more about the fans.

Also, no I don't think this is some massive issue that's got a ton of casualties yet. I'm not bending over backwards either, I'm pointing out instances that I feel guided us towards this moment, and a few I've been wrong on, and I admit that.

Also shamed into not buying? Where did I say this? I said people were made ashamed of their interests, I didn't say that made them avoid buying anything. I said it was possible but I didn't believe it to be likely. Just because you made someone feel bad about their hobby doesn't mean they just drop it.

 

[RM8]

I'm just trying to imagine the worst possible "SJW induced" scenario. The day of its release in the US, Anita Sarkeesian does a live stream saying super terrible things about the game (like saying it's problematic, some people hate that word), and tumblr temporarily changes its logotype for something anti DOA. Lots of evil SJWs blog negative things about the game.

How does that change anything? Is the game not profitable now? Would this effectively kill, uh, Samurai Warriors? (please don't kill Samurai Warriors, okay?).

 

[TheLight]

I'm just trying to imagine the worst possible "SJW induced" scenario. The day of its release in the US, Anita Sarkeesian does a live stream saying super terrible things about the game (like saying it's problematic, some people hate that word), and tumblr temporarily changes its logotype for something anti DOA. Lots of evil SJWs blog negative things about the game.

How does that change anything?

PR nightmare. Shareholders have a fit. Employees possibly leaving to not be associated it with it. Possibility of series not having anymore entries(at least for a while). In a weird way, now the thread is underestimating the effect backlash can have.

 

[freeofgreed]

PR nightmare. Shareholders have a fit. Employees possibly leaving to not be associated it with it. Possibility of series not having anymore entries(at least for a while). In a weird way, now the thread is underestimating the effect backlash can have.

And yet, none of that has happened yet with their previous titles.

 

[Alucrid]

PR nightmare. Shareholders have a fit. Employees possibly leaving to not be associated it with it. Possibility of series not having anymore entries(at least for a while). In a weird way, now the thread is underestimating the effect backlash can have.

you know what else has that kind of effect? poor sales

 

[Oersted]

PR nightmare. Shareholders have a fit. Employees possibly leaving to not be associated it with it. Possibility of series not having anymore entries(at least for a while). In a weird way, now the thread is underestimating the effect backlash can have.

Dead or Alive is associated with Tecmo, its a little bit extremely late for that.

 

[RM8]

PR nightmare. Shareholders have a fit. Employees possibly leaving to not be associated it with it. Possibility of series not having anymore entries(at least for a while). In a weird way, now the thread is underestimating the effect backlash can have.

And this all happens while people are buying Senran Kagura and Criminal Girls (and those games ARE criticized - all games are!). And it'd be the first time it happens, to begin with. You can't blame people for not believing this.

...for a game about girls in bikinis, on the beach.

 

[Opto]

PR nightmare. Shareholders have a fit. Employees possibly leaving to not be associated it with it. Possibility of series not having anymore entries(at least for a while). In a weird way, now the thread is underestimating the effect backlash can have.

This happened when the last DOA game came out?

 

[Faustek]

Has anyone really talked about a conspiracy? I certainly haven't.

https://youtu.be/RUMivV5Utss

Spoiler

This thread is all over the place. I think I've been all over it as well so there ya go.

 

[Doctor Ironic]

PC culture is preventing you from viewing underage women in skimpy outfits?

Uhhhhh... huh. *writes "working as intended" on clipboard*

 

[radios shipping overview]

PR nightmare. Shareholders have a fit. Employees possibly leaving to not be associated it with it. Possibility of series not having anymore entries(at least for a while). In a weird way, now the thread is underestimating the effect backlash can have.

Oddly, that sounds a lot like the free market at work, rather than any form of actual censorship.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

when the bubsy collection makes it through steam greenlight whoever's handling the re-release should claim it was sjw's who stopped you from buying it any earlier

 

[The Technomancer]

I've stayed mostly out of this, mostly because I'm in the "this is dumb, no-one really cared outside of maybe it being an example in some critical essays somewhere" camp, but man, PlayAsia is really not helping the particularly narrow "gamer" image they're playing to with their continued responses. Seriously.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I am for people to have the freedom to do anything they want as long as the free market is in no way involved.

 

[Dabookerman]

Um.. are people forgetting this?

 

[Sianos]

I agree with you 100% on this. It's a real shame that sex negativity is so prevalent to the point where objectification in non-sexual scenarios is mistaken for sex positivity. I'm all for more sexual content in our media - more that depicts sex in a healthy way and not one-sided, forced or devoid of context. Sadly, it still isn't normalised yet and that causes a ton of problems like the ones you mentioned.

As such, I don't personally have a problem with DOAX because it seems to be honest about what it is, and I find this much less troubling than sexualisation creeping into otherwise straight-faced games. That said, it's still part of a broad issue regarding sexualisation and our attitudes towards it; and I think K-T might have become aware of this since they realise that DOAX3 could be criticized for its content (despite there being no campaigns against it).

Very well said, and I agree.

 

[RM8]

Um.. are people forgetting this?

Can you imagine if this got localized? Now that'd be a PR nightmare!

 

[MHWilliams]

Um.. are people forgetting this?

The argument is that DOAX3 is big enough that it could tank Keoi Tecmo's brand... that already did essentially the same thing.

 

[HotHamBoy]

Well, the game looks fuck-all terrible. At least in DoA the fanservice comes with a solid fighting game. This is just minigame trash. I don't know why you would play it unless you were either a masochist or a simpleton because there are better ways to oggle women. It's not like it's going to be a good volleyball sim. Or a good anything. It's just a DLC machine.

 

[TheLight]

And this all happens while people are buying Senran Kagura and Criminal Girls (and those games ARE criticized - all games are!). And it'd be the first time it happens, to begin with. You can't blame people for not believing this.

...for a game about girls in bikinis, on the beach.

I was just replying to your hypothetical which you said was the worst case scenario. All of this seems very possible and I don't see much merit in the dismissal. Senran Kagura and Criminal Girls sure yeah but they wouldn't be in the spot light. The shit storm you described? That would make a lot of news.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

First off, I believe Xenoblade Chronicle X's censorship of the character creation or Fatal Frame's extra costume censorship is part of the growing trend. I don't think there are too many specific cases surrounding localization yet, but I think it'll grow with time. I think this is the tip of the iceberg in terms of companies becoming shy about their more sexual properties and bringing them to the west.

I think though that companies like X seed may capitalize on this and end up "saving" some of these games for the Western market.

Shaming happens in most Gaf or really any internet boards surrounding the more lewd games coming from Japan, like Senran Kagura. I've seen enough people called disgusting perverts or degenerates or other variations (both directly and generalized) over the last few years to see there's quite a lot of shaming even just here. But it's a wide spread issue, not a Gaf centric issue.

It's part of why games like Criminal Girls and the like became banned topics as neither side of the issue could be civil.

As for people who would buy but don't because of shaming, I have no idea. I'm sure someone has felt judged enough to not grab up on a purchase, but I'm not contending that's anywhere close to a wide spread issue. I honestly have no idea if anyone has been shamed to the point of not buying the game, but that's also not my point. My point is more it isn't right or productive to make people feel shameful about their interests.

What growing trend, dude? Awful examples since that's Nintendo you're talking about. A company that not very long ago still censored any religious imagery from their games, even if it was a cross on a tombstone. This is a company that made publishers cover the statues of half naked women in Castlevania and made Earthbound and FFVI change their pubs for cafes and made a character in Chrono Trigger drink soup instead of booze.

Nintendo has had a long history of censoring. A decade ago a game like Fatal Frame V wouldn't have been localized at all over here to begin with. They altered only two very skimpy outfits that one was worn by an underage chick.

If anything this shows a new trend from Nintendo, not a growing one: they censor way less now.

 

[RM8]

About DOAX tarnishing the KT brand - I bought DOA5LR on PC and it has girls wearing flowers on her nipples, while getting sweaty and dirty.

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

Um.. are people forgetting this?

If you look at the replies games like Senran Kagura are too niche and under the radar to "count" and games like MGSV and Grand theft Auto are the exact opposite of niche and under the radar, and yet, somehow also don't "count."

 

[Jelly Rajah]

Well, the game looks fuck-all terrible. At least in DoA the fanservice comes with a solid fighting game. This is just minigame trash. I don't know why you would play it unless you were either a masochist or a simpleton because there are better ways to oggle women. It's not like it's going to be a good volleyball sim. Or a good anything. It's just a DLC machine.

 

[Dabookerman]

The argument is that DOAX3 is big enough that it could tank Keoi Tecmo's brand... that already did essentially the same thing.

Yeah, so if that's the case, that's purely their decision. It's kinda like when DMC fans were blamed when DmC didn't do as well.

Ultimately, it's their decision. There is no censorship happening.

 

[Palculator]

Can you imagine if this got localized? Now that'd be a PR nightmare!

Are you being double sarcastic or are you forgetting Official Nintendo Magazine turning heel?

 

[dity]

I've stayed mostly out of this, mostly because I'm in the "this is dumb, no-one really cared outside of maybe it being an example in some critical essays somewhere" camp, but man, PlayAsia is really not helping the particularly narrow "gamer" image they're playing to with their continued responses. Seriously.

Everything honestly points to "this was a social media marketing campaign aimed at gamergate". 19k

Spoiler

barely active

followers now, up from less than 10k.

Their reach is still gonna be way less than 19k though. Go and check out their followers: people who barely tweet, lots of accounts with less than 100 followers (lots in the singlw digits). The same exact thing happened with accounts that catered to gamergate back in the day.

 

[RM8]

Are you being double sarcastic or are you forgetting Official Nintendo Magazine turning heel?

No, I'm indeed being sarcastic since I'm sure no brand or series was ruined as a result of the backlash caused by a game much more risque than DOAX.

 

[Risette]

Are you being double sarcastic or are you forgetting Official Nintendo Magazine turning heel?

to be fair this is like the only controversy there's been over SK, there was that one other nintendo site too but I'm not surprised people would be taken aback by SK if their job is to play Nintendo games

 

[Lothar]

I'm the same way. I don't buy from people that use SJW as a non ironic term. Complaining about SJWs is like complaining about good people.

...Sorry, I guess?

I didn't buy Hunie Pop for the same reason. People that use SJW negatively don't deserve my business.

So you don't think it's ever possible for people to be extreme or overly aggressive about political correctness? For people to be too eager to criticize and label someone over the tiniest thing? Because that's all it is. Let's say there was a group that was campaigning against DOAX3 for the content and saying no one should ever play it because it's sexist. (I don't know if there is or not) Would you say those are good people doing the right thing?

 

[Palculator]

to be fair this is like the only controversy there's been over SK, there was that one other nintendo site too but I'm not surprised people would be taken aback by SK if their job is to play Nintendo games

I know. Just pointing out that was what the post containing the cover was (probably) referring to, which RM8 seemed to misunderstand.

 

[charlequin]

PR nightmare. Shareholders have a fit. Employees possibly leaving to not be associated it with it. Possibility of series not having anymore entries(at least for a while).

So a fever dream of completely imaginary nonsense? None of this is remotely plausible as a consequence of the release of DOAX3, the third title in a well-established series of trashy bikini-girl volleyball games.

If you look at the replies games like Senran Kagura are too niche and under the radar to "count" and games like MGSV and Grand theft Auto are the exact opposite of niche and under the radar, and yet, somehow also don't "count."

Only games that sell precisely as many copies as DOAX can be affected by this new climate.

 

[cwistofu]

So you don't think it's ever possible for people to be extreme or overly aggressive about political correctness? For people to be too eager to criticize and label someone over the tiniest thing? Because that's all it is. Let's say there was a group that was campaigning against DOAX3 for the content and saying no one should ever play it because it's sexist. (I don't know if there is or not) Would you say those are good people doing the right thing?

We should be sensitive to everyone all the time no matter what. After all, shouting the loudest should get you what you want. That's just the law of the land in 2015.

 

[hodgy100]

So you don't think it's ever possible for people to be extreme or overly aggressive about political correctness? For people to be too eager to criticize and label someone over the tiniest thing? Because that's all it is. Let's say there was a group that was campaigning against DOAX3 for the content and saying no one should ever play it because it's sexist. (I don't know if there is or not) Would you say those are good people doing the right thing?

but its being used to describe people who meerly state that DOAX depics women in a negative way. "SJW" is being used to silence any progressive viewpoint not just the extreme ones.

 

[Yazzees]

I thought the Chrome extension that changes every instance and variation of "SJW" into "skeleton" would get old eventually.


Nope.

 

[TheLight]

So a fever dream of completely imaginary nonsense? None of this is remotely plausible as a consequence of the release of DOAX3, the third title in a well-established series of trashy bikini-girl volleyball games.



Only games that sell precisely as many copies as DOAX can be affected by this new climate.

Again, he put up a hypothetical worst case scenario and I responded so I don't get where you're coming from with any of these being imaginary. It's inherently plausible if a shit storm of the magnitude he was getting at goes on. There is no way any title would be unaffected by something of that magnitude.

 

[Palculator]

No, I'm indeed being sarcastic since I'm sure no brand or series was ruined as a result of the backlash caused by a game much more risque than DOAX.

Glad SK only seemed to ramp it up since then and XSEED's there to localise it. Steam release coming too!

 

[cwistofu]

but its being used to describe people who meerly state that DOAX depics women in a negative way. "SJW" is being used to silence any progressive viewpoint not jsut the extreme ones.

People dismissing or condemning DOA using sex to sell have always been a thing. That never stopped TN from bringing the games West. When people blame SJWs, they aren't grouping all progressive viewpoints together. They're referring specifically to the people making a big PC fuss over everything there is to complain about. And those people definitely exist.

 

[RM8]

Glad SK only seemed to ramp it up since then and XSEED's there to localise it. Steam release coming too!

So we could say those games' existence is not in any danger, right? :]

What you guys don't get is that while many of us are vocal about disliking fanservice, we don't want to exterminate the games that revolve around it. I don't care about DOAX, it doesn't affect me since I won't buy it, and I hope it's an enjoyable game for those into it.