Triple H addresses fan frustration with WWE; admits they feel the same way.

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What? He was great, and the crowd were all over it.
Dude can't work a match, show consistent intensity, look confident, etc. He's bad at being a pro wrestler, from what I've seen. I don't know how he's on WWE's main roster.

He lucked into a great storyline, and he was great at the role, but when it came time to tell a story through strict wrestling, he didn't deliver. Watch any of his few matches. He's not connecting with the crowd in the same way he did just doing goofy "manager" antics.
 
Dude can't work a match, show consistent intensity, look confident, etc. He's bad at being a pro wrestler, from what I've seen. I don't know how he's on WWE's main roster.

He lucked into a great storyline, and he was great at the role, but when it came time to wrestle or impress, he never did.
Okay, but your opinion of him aside, my point stands. That storyline was hot, but ended in a convoluted whimper for no reason other than WWE suck at relating to their crowd.
 
No. It will never have huge ratings again.

Wrestling is out dated. Unless they change the format, it will stay silly nonsense for hardcore fans.
It's also one of those situations where if it loses its current fans, it's not going to be able to get new fans.

As I said, the cultural relevance just isn't there to grow anything new. It's like how bowling alleys shut down all the time, and no new ones open. (Well, aside from the "hipster" one downtown.)

Whereas today... NONE of the titles matter. Even the WWE title. Sheamus is just keeping it warm for Roman's WrestleMania payday and will be booked like a loser until then. There's a match on Sunday's TLC card featuring Owens and Ambrose that "should" matter... and is for the IC title... and does have two of the best workers in the business today involved... but does it matter who wins?
When I stopped watching it felt like every match was being treated as a main event, with twists and turns, upsets and betrayals. Like there were no "normal" matches anymore.

It makes you numb to actual important matches.
 
Okay, but your opinion of him aside, my point stands. That storyline was hot, but ended in a convoluted whimper for no reason other than WWE suck at relating to their crowd.
No, Sandow couldn't carry the weight of the storyline's payoff. You're discussing the situation from an idealistic perspective like "if they had just kept it going, it would have worked," but it wouldn't. His work is really soft and "going through the motions." He wouldn't have continued the connection with the crowd that he had. He lost it all that one Raw where he came out and cut a promo to thank the fans, and it fell flat with the crowd because he just doesn't want it that bad (or doesn't know how to).

WWE fucks up most of their own storylines for sure, but Sandow is just not good enough. His shit Macho Man made it even more obvious.
 
No, Sandow literally couldn't carry the weight of the storyline's payoff. You're discussing the situation from an idealistic perspective like "if they had just kept it going, it would have worked," but it wouldn't. His work is really soft and "going through the motions." He wouldn't have continued the connection with the crowd that he had. He lost it all that one Raw where he came out and cut a promo to thank the fans, and it fell flat with the crowd because he just doesn't want it that bad (or doesn't know how to).

WWE fucks up most of their own storylines for sure, but Sandow is just not good enough. His shit Macho Man made it even more obvious.
I'm not going to pretend that Sandow is the greatest wrestler ever. That promo you mention was one of the most horrible things I've ever seen. I'm just saying that the natural payoff for that feud was for Miz to get a huge beatdown in a match that was timed perfectly for mania, and the crowd would have popped huge for it. Whatever happened after that moment is irrelevant, particularly with Raw-after-mania opportunities to reset storylines. Hell, he could have disappeared off our screens forever. Instead, it went on longer than it should have done and just dissolved into a messy nothing, so the crowd lost interest. That's not a better result.
 
I remember reading it on here in the wrasslin thread. It was either they were going to quit or they told Vince he could fire them if they didn't get over. Most of the wrestlers don't have the balls to approach Vince.

They talked about it on Table For 3. IIRC, Xavier Woods wasn't happy with the direction New Day were taking, so he basically begged for Vince to let them do what they had originally intended to do when they envisioned New Day and if it failed, Vince could let him go.
 
The only time Sandown had any intensity as a wrestler was the six month lead-in to his failed MitB cash-in. Then he got turned into even more of a jobber when he lost that, and he precipitously stopped giving a fuck. He's a natural midcard heel, not a babyface, and that awful promo showed it.
 
After watching WM X-7 (17), NJPW and Lucha Underground it's even harder to watch the current product. Wrestlers either over sell or don't sell enough, sloppy moves all over, really lame gimmicks and mic work. But mostly what's frustrating is seeing every match have 30 kickouts with finishers. I know this has been happening, but there was much better user of this in previous years.
 
I hope this gives them the good kick in the balls they need, RAW has become so secure and bloated in its position as the only really big wrestling show on the planet that they feel that they don't need to try. Going non-PG will fix nothing. They need to focus on good wrestling and good story telling, not shilling something every second breath, undercutting every good idea with four bad ones and pathetically living off of nostalgia for the Attitude Era (Which besides its stars was a really shit time for wrestling).
 
Everything involving Mizdow was doomed from the start. He gets over and the fans are cheering him. Okay. He turns on Miz finally and beats Miz. Okay. Then what? Even if the feud had been booked perfectly there was nowhere for Sandow to go from there. He sucks as a face that isn't mocking heels, as we saw in the promo after it ended.
 
Oh yes, let's go back to the Attitude Era..

.. regular drama shows on network TV have more nudity and violence than Attitude Era Raw did. It's no longer special.

What's missing from that era is WCW, who was a competitor that kept each other on their toes. WWE is complacent with no direct TV competitors.

I'm not as into wrestling as most of you or as much as I was back in the late 90's. But almost everyone ei knew was into wrestling for one reason. Goldberg. People love a winner. Rousey should prove that to everyone.

I don't know what it is about a winning streak that gets people involved in a sport but it does. Once Goldberg's streak was ended, it was the beginning of the end for WCW. It just became worse when they refused to give it back. They need to throw a shitload of money at Golderg and give him his streak back. People will start watching again.
 
Tommy Dreamer is working a WWE PPV in 2015.

Not only that, but Dreamer worked TWICE on Monday Night RAW in 2015.


If you told this to someone in 2001, they would have laughed you out of the building.

Posted by: stonecold_CloudFF7x - Date 09/05/2001
"You do realize that WWF is not WCW and is not going to use old washed up stars? This product is edgy and cool and edgy"
 
I'm not as into wrestling as most of you or as much as I was back in the late 90's. But almost everyone ei knew was into wrestling for one reason. Goldberg. People love a winner. Rousey should prove that to everyone.

I don't know what it is about a winning streak that gets people involved in a sport but it does. Once Goldberg's streak was ended, it was the beginning of the end for WCW. It just became worse when they refused to give it back. They need to throw a shitload of money at Golderg and give him his streak back. People will start watching again.

No
 

I just think there was something about him. People seem to like the silent protagonist. Goldberg was at his best when he didn't say a word, step into the ring and fuck people up.

I know I'd definitely start watching wrestling again if he came back. The current crop of talent are just....shit.
 
That's part of why Zack Ryder's run was so great. Leading up to his win was perhaps one of the lower points for the US title but damn if he didn't put it over like it was the most important thing in the world and you believed it was true for a guy like that.
It really was a big deal for him. When else is he going to taste singles gold again? (No, his Internet Championship belt doesn't count.)

First segments from the scripts in video form for comparison sake.

Attitude Era: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9dbdv_raw-2000-stone-cold-steve-austin-re_sport
Kurt Angle on the mic in his prime never fails to crack me up.
Also, that version of Austin's theme music sucked ass.

I just think there was something about him. People seem to like the silent protagonist. Goldberg was at his best when he didn't say a word, step into the ring and fuck people up.

I know I'd definitely start watching wrestling again if he came back. The current crop of talent are just....shit.
Had they booked Roman Reigns this way they'd be in a lot better place right now.
 
I agree with you that not having a top face is a problem. That could have been remedied by HHH turning the next night after WM. (People were ready to accept him coming to save the Rock. Instead he joined Austin.) Or by building up one of the newer guys better. There was a PPV in May when Angle, Jericho, and Benoit all lost clean to Undertaker, HHH, and Rock. Then in June, they put Jericho and Benoit together against Austin which made it look like it took the two of them to equal Austin.

It wasn't heel Austin that was bad. It was everything else. Other than RVD getting big, heel Austin was the one consistently entertaining thing I remember from WWE 2001.

But in any case, it wasn't a huge deal. Viewers were still tuned in for the Invasion. Nothing that happened between March 2001 and the invasion drove people away permanently. The Invasion might have drove people away permanently.
Yep, their handling of the Invasion angle pushed me away from wrestling. Pretty early on it became Vince vs Shane vs Steph not about the wrestlers and always knowing Vince's WWE wrestlers were gonna win killed any hype. He couldn't let his wrestlers lose to WCW/ECW. He had to bury them; especially since they couldn't get Goldberg/Sting/Hall/Nash...
 
I just think there was something about him. People seem to like the silent protagonist. Goldberg was at his best when he didn't say a word, step into the ring and fuck people up.

I know I'd definitely start watching wrestling again if he came back. The current crop of talent are just....shit.

WWE is not going to handle Goldberg correctly(especially a much older one who won't be nearly as intense as his younger days), they already had their chance when they signed him in 2003 and they wasted him in a lackluster run before he retired.
 
WWE is not going to handle Goldberg correctly(especially a much older one who won't be nearly as intense as his younger days), they already had their chance when they signed him in 2003 and they wasted him in a lackluster run before he retired.

Wasn't Goldberg fed to the Reign of Terror Triple H himself led?
 
Bad? Come on. Besides, Roman is actually bad, and he's in the main event. Sandow has charisma and can work a mic, at the very least.
I don't see any problem with Reigns as a wrestler at all. I figure most people are in the same position: he's a great talent, but he's over scripted and mishandled in the worst ways. Roman's got some legit singles MOTY contenders this year, and I'm pretty sure he could get over just being more like himself.
 
Sheamus and Reigns are two of the best in the company as far as presence/physicality, the issue has been in booking their feud with garbage talking spots rather than letting them eat each other.
 
Do you guys feel Triple H is cutting it?

Maybe he should move more to Operations. He's obviously Vince's heir for the WWE, but I don't know if he has the chops honestly.
 
Sheamus and Reigns are two of the best in the company as far as presence/physicality, the issue has been in booking their feud with garbage talking spots rather than letting them eat each other.
wwe-raw-audience-is-casual-fans-tlc-predictions-roman-reigns-tater-tots-podcast-bytethat-byte-that-644x362.jpg
 
Rhino only just turned 40 a couple months ago, so he's not *that* old yet.

John Cena is gonna be 39 in a few months, as is Alberto Del Rio, Titus O'Neal, and AJ Styles. Lesnar turns 39 next summer too. Sheamus is going to be 38 in a month.

It's not his age, friend. It's the fact that he is Rhino and this is 2015.
 
What's with all this cynicism about Dreamer and Rhyno? They're clearly here just to do a month long angle to give everyone a cool-ish moment with new guys. I don't understand the problem with this. It's not like they're being presented as the company's stars. I'm sure their 4v4 tables match will be fun.
 
What's with all this cynicism about Dreamer and Rhyno? They're clearly here just to do a month long angle to give everyone a cool-ish moment with new guys. I don't understand the problem with this. It's not like they're being presented as the company's stars. I'm sure their 4v4 tables match will be fun.
Should have brought back Amish Roadkill and 911 if they wanted to put asses in seats for this ECW angle.
 
Everyone mentions the wwf side of the attitude era, but what about wcw late 96 to late 98? They were pg. Roster was as deep as it is now. Nitro was 3 hours and it all worked. Not because of sex and violence. But because of good main even set storylines. Effective utilization of the best midcard of all time. And good paced shows that weren't over produced. That wcw much more reflects what modern wwe should be trying to be. No need for crap russo like stories where people get that everywhere now and is impossible to recreate in ways without cheapening the entire experience. You guys want even more people with 10 plus title reigns that you can't even remember?
 
This has been brewing since 2001. They were able to coast on a sea of talent for a few years, but never really replenished the old stars with the same caliber of super stars. Yeah we got Kurt Angle, Brock, and John Cena. But even a John Cena seems like he would be an upper mid card guy back in the boom period. Hell the one guy they had get over was CM Punk, and he did it on his own. If CM Punk had happened during the monday night wars he would be up there with Austin, Rock, etc just for the mic work alone.

In the 80s Vince basically bought out all the territories. Those territories had created some great stars, and basically WWF got a roster of the very best all over the country because there were places for these people to work, make a living, and get better. Imagine a dozen NXT's interlinked, sharing talent, polishing into better wrestlers, etc. Then Vince buys them out and we have a huge roster of awesome guys. But he basically destroyed the field which these wrestlers grew from. We just lucked out that Ted Turner likes wrestling on his station and buys Georgia Championship wrestling, that has a different style, and is another place people can make a living doing this other than WWE. Otherwise I could have seen the early 90s depression wwe era being the end.

So in the 90s we have aging roster from the 80s boom period go down south, and draw money then combine that with some of the newer popular 90s guys and we mix them into the nWo and BOOM wrestling gets jolted out of the depression it was in, and we launch into the Monday night wars.

Thing is the 80s popular wrestlers were still good enough to go (somewhat slower paced now though), and the 90s guys were awesome, but we no longer had territories pulling in guys and allowing them to learn their craft. So we get a few stand outs from ECW that brought in Japanese guys or guys who went to japan like Benoit, Guerrero etc, and also let under card guys show their worth doing promos (like Austin).

But through stupid decisions WCW no longer profits, and with the merger an already unprofitable brand that the new executives didn't like to begin with gets axed. Now we are in 2001 and the 80s guys are getting REALLY OLD but can do a few more years, the 90s guys either got hurt (Austin, HBK) or left (Rock) and we have another vaccum forming but there is no longer anywhere to work, its the 90s story again but no Ted Turner to bail out a company and keep it going. So now we have a long decline and while maybe not dying, it won't ever turn around like it did in the late 90s.

Vince doesn't have a reason to take risks anymore, the older guard is replaced by writers, everything is scripted out of the ass, you don't need blood, but you need something organic and almost real to pique interest. Thats what CM Punks pipebomb was. How they dropped the ball on what could have been another Austin KOTR moment blows my mind.

Roman Reigns doing what hes doing now is like Rocky Mavia dying a slow death as the blue chipper getting booed out of the building. I don't know if he can act, I dont know if he even needs to act, but Reigns cutting a promo from the heart telling the crowd to fuck off would be the first interesting thing I've ever seen him do. Hell if that happened I might even tune in to watch what happens the next week!
 
Everyone mentions the wwf side of the attitude era, but what about wcw late 96 to late 98? They were pg. Roster was as deep as it is now. Nitro was 3 hours and it all worked. Not because of sex and violence. But because of good main even set storylines. Effective utilization of the best midcard of all time. And good paced shows that weren't over produced. That wcw much more reflects what modern wwe should be trying to be. No need for crap russo like stories where people get that everywhere now and is impossible to recreate in ways without cheapening the entire experience. You guys want even more people with 10 plus title reigns that you can't even remember?

WCW, for all its boneheaded top level decisions (and they are countless), had the good sense to let guys like Chris Jericho/Benoit/Booker T do whatever the fuck they wanted on the mid card, and their stellar undercard of cruiserweights kept the the long format show from feeling like a soul sucking drag until the very end of it, whereas RAW feels like your soul is being sucked from your body during the first 20 minute promo to start the show.
 
The main problem that I see as a very very casual fan is that it's overproduced. That goes for inside the ring and out. Allow the talent to grow their characters organically so that they are more easily relate-able and (most importantly) believable as characters. Every single wrestler feels like a slightly different version of each other. Every single character has shades of older notions of 'cool' or 'weak' or whatever is trying to be conveyed. The problem is that 20-30 years ago Vince and Co. were younger and could still somewhat relate to the talent on the staff so their insight and direction was helpful. Now, they are truly out of touch with the target audience and it shows in the product. I don't watch NXT but it sounds like HHH is in charge there and people generally like it better. That, to me, lends credence to my assertion. Loosen up the leach on the roster and let them relate to the audience, who is much younger now and unrelatable to the current show runners.

I think that fixes a lot, honestly.
 
The only time Sandown had any intensity as a wrestler was the six month lead-in to his failed MitB cash-in. Then he got turned into even more of a jobber when he lost that, and he precipitously stopped giving a fuck. He's a natural midcard heel, not a babyface, and that awful promo showed it.

I wish he was just the Intellectual Savior forever because that shit was gold and it really super sucks the way it came to an end.
 
I wish he was just the Intellectual Savior forever because that shit was gold and it really super sucks the way it came to an end.

Sandow's back in that role. Unfortunately he's just been at house shows recently. The episode of Main Event from a couple of weeks ago has a match with him in it though.
 
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