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[User 463088]

Well, I'm not at all enthusiastic about her.... : cough :

PoliGaf, cover your ears now, this is a repeat. I repeat, this is a....well, you get it.

I was a big Hillary supporter in '08. Was with her until the bitter end. I even helped donate money to help settle her campaign debt from 2008. I also met Sec. Clinton twice, once when I volunteered for her and once when she was coming through stumping for Pres. Obama. I'm a big Hillary supporter this year as well.

There are two Hillary Clintons. The real one and the one the media has created. They're not the same person. The media portrays her as shrewd, power hungry and manipulative (Characteristics they wouldn't assign to her if she was a man, FYI). She's incredibly intelligent, and she has a grasp on the issues, both domestic and foreign, that no one else in the race has. She knows how Washington works. She knows she can't give us pie in the sky, so she offers what she knows she can deliver. She then explains how she's going to do that. (Hint: it doesn't require a "revolution.") She appeals to the pragmatist in me, because I, like her, am a Progressive who likes to get stuff done.

Also, and this is a big one for me, she's a member of the Democratic Party. She's been out there working to elect Democrats for 40 years. She's met with the volunteers. She's eaten the rubber chickens. She's been there when we've won and she's been there when we've lost. She didn't decide to join the party just to make a point. I've been active with the Democratic Party since I was 9 and my dad forced me to go knock on doors during Clinton's re-election campaign. (My dad was a life long Democrat. Born in the 20s, he lived through the Depression and idolized FDR. Even when the races were obviously not going to be won, he still would be out there knocking on doors, donating money, volunteering at the polls, whatever. Plus, he passed away in 2008 right before the primaries. He wanted to vote for Hillary so badly, so I've kinda picked up that mantle and carried it).

Most of my IRL friends are excited for her, but I admit we're not the most diverse of groups. We're almost all mid-late 20 somethings, all of us LGBT, We're a fairly equal sampling of races and ethnicity. One of my friends does Feel the Bern, although, given what I know about him, I think a round of antibiotics MAY clear that up. (Kidding.)

And, for the record, I have no issue with voting for Bernie in the GE should he get the nomination. He's not my first or second choice (2nd choice is my life partner Gov. McSexy Hotpants O'Manly.)

 

[phanphare]

Do you know Hillary has been democrat most of her life and was elected senator as a Democrat, while Bernie just become Democrat now that he is running for president.

another reason why the enthusiasm isn't there regarding Clinton

 

[stupei]

Well, if you could point out to me a candidate with a "here's what happens when my policies/ideas don't come to fruition" plan, then I'd be all ears. If you disagree with Sanders on policy, that's fine. The majority of Democrats in office think Sanders is too far to the left. But to say "yeah his ideas are nice, but they're hard so who cares?" is, again, self-defeating.

Not long before his inauguration, there were a lot of people who thought electing a black man named Barack Hussein Obama was a pipe dream. I don't think liberal, populist economic ideals are that toxic (80+% of Democrats support single-player, along with 50+% of all Americans, along with a lot of the world's industrialized nations). Our hesitancy to really push for these things is further proof of how conservatives, ultimately, stay winning where it counts.

Well, again, I never said those words. But your need to be utterly reductionist does explain why you're satisfied with plans that are frankly impossible.

Nobody said don't do the hard work. In fact, I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying the country that Bernie wishes we were living in is the same one I want, but I understand it's not going to be here for another 20 years or more of consistent hard work. Obviously, yes, talk about the world of tomorrow. But please also tell me what you'll be doing in your four years in which none of that is going to actually be anywhere near finished.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

Because people don't know which version of her to feel enthusiastic for.

 

[Switch Back 9]

Well, I'm not at all enthusiastic about her.... : cough :

PoliGaf, cover your ears now, this is a repeat. I repeat, this is a....well, you get it.

I was a big Hillary supporter in '08. Was with her until the bitter end. I even helped donate money to help settle her campaign debt from 2008. I also met Sec. Clinton twice, once when I volunteered for her and once when she was coming through stumping for Pres. Obama. I'm a big Hillary supporter this year as well.

There are two Hillary Clintons. The real one and the one the media has created. They're not the same person. The media portrays her as shrewd, power hungry and manipulative (Characteristics they wouldn't assign to her if she was a man, FYI). She's incredibly intelligent, and she has a grasp on the issues, both domestic and foreign, that no one else in the race has. She knows how Washington works. She knows she can't give us pie in the sky, so she offers what she knows she can deliver. She then explains how she's going to do that. (Hint: it doesn't require a "revolution.") She appeals to the pragmatist in me, because I, like her, am a Progressive who likes to get stuff done.

Also, and this is a big one for me, she's a member of the Democratic Party. She's been out there working to elect Democrats for 40 years. She's met with the volunteers. She's eaten the rubber chickens. She's been there when we've won and she's been there when we've lost. She didn't decide to join the party just to make a point. I've been active with the Democratic Party since I was 9 and my dad forced me to go knock on doors during Clinton's re-election campaign. (My dad was a life long Democrat. Born in the 20s, he lived through the Depression and idolized FDR. Even when the races were obviously not going to be won, he still would be out there knocking on doors, donating money, volunteering at the polls, whatever. Plus, he passed away in 2008 right before the primaries. He wanted to vote for Hillary so badly, so I've kinda picked up that mantle and carried it).

Most of my IRL friends are excited for her, but I admit we're not the most diverse of groups. We're almost all mid-late 20 somethings, all of us LGBT, We're a fairly equal sampling of races and ethnicity. One of my friends does Feel the Bern, although, given what I know about him, I think a round of antibiotics MAY clear that up. (Kidding.)

And, for the record, I have no issue with voting for Bernie in the GE should he get the nomination. He's not my first or second choice (2nd choice is my life partner Gov. McSexy Hotpants O'Manly.)

I don't quite understand this? Was your dad in his late 70's-80's when he had you?

 

[Krakatoa]

same shit, different person. Also I can't believe with all the people in America we have to elect a spouse of a former president.

 

[q_q]

this basically clarifies exactly why i'm voting for her, with several of pigeon's posts in PoliGAF clarifying exactly why i'm *not* voting for bernie

Would you mind linking one of those posts? I'd be curious to see the argument.

 

[User 463088]

I don't quite understand this? Was your dad in his late 70's-80's when he had you?

He was 65 when I was born, ya.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

same shit, different person. Also I can't believe with all the people in America we have to elect a spouse of a former president.

Do you think that's all she's done her whole career, just be Bill's wife?

 

[FStubbs]

Republicans hate her even more than they hate Obama.

Hahahahaha!

Honestly, when you look at the polls ...

No, wait. Rotflmao.

Okay back to reality ...

 

[Sobriquet]

Because people believe the Republicans' 20+ year hate campaign.

 

[stufte]

Because people believe the Republicans' 20+ year hate campaign.

Really? Haha, so the only reason people like me aren't hyped on her is because of what Republicans say about her? Okie dokie then.

 

[JustenP88]

Well, again, I never said those words. But your need to be utterly reductionist does explain why you're satisfied with plans that are frankly impossible.

Nobody said don't do the hard work. In fact, I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying the country that Bernie wishes we were living in is the same one I want, but I understand it's not going to be here for another 20 years or more of consistent hard work. Obviously, yes, talk about the world of tomorrow. But please also tell me what you'll be doing in your four years in which none of that is going to actually be anywhere near finished.

Alright, we'll just have to stop this. I'd rather deduce your point down than be unnecessarily long-winded (I want what Bernie wants, that's impossible... You literally said that. Literally). I disagree that it's impossible. The things he's pushing for are not new ideas. I also understand that, at some point, we need to stop being ashamed of progressive policies if we want to make significant headway towards them. These ideas need to be normalized at some point.

The ACA is better than what we had. In no way, shape or form should it be the final solution to fixing our Healthcare problems. We all saw it as a compromise when we got it. We want to move forward. We don't do that by being overly protectionist of our past compromises. We do that by, you know... Moving forward (oh shit that's a Hillary slogan).

Southern whites were receptive to liberal economics until the possibility of them benefitting minorities came into the picture. I think we need to win them back. I don't think we should sit around and wait for them to come knock on our doors asking for socialized medicine.

 

[foxtrot3d]

same shit, different person. Also I can't believe with all the people in America we have to elect a spouse of a former president.

Why does that matter? I vote for the most qualified candidate whose views align with my own, what does it matter if they have relations with a former President?

 

[NeoXChaos]

Why does that matter? I vote for the most qualified candidate whose views align with my own, what does it matter if they have relations with a former President?

he could have said the same thing but replace spouse with brother or son.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

Really? Haha, so the only reason people like me aren't hyped on her is because of what Republicans say about her? Okie dokie then.

A lot of people (even in this thread) hate/dislike her because of all her "scandals" (even though most/all of them are a product of Republican smearing).

 

[injurai]

I don't think this is true at all. 90% of Gaf-democrats would rather 4 more years of Obama, but when it comes to the mid-term elections in 2018, most Democrats will be very happy to see him go.

It's so true.

 

[cDNA]

Which is a huge point in a Bernie's favor

It is a huge point because he can keep aura of outsider while benefiting of the infrastructure of the Democratic Party to promote their candidature ? Second, I was responding to the UFO comment that Hillary is just in Democratic party to run for president.

 

[jackissocool]

It is a huge point because he can keep aura of outsider while benefiting of the infrastructure of the Democratic Party to promote their candidature ? Second, I was responding to the UFO comment that Hillary is just in Democratic party to run for president.

It's a huge point because people are sick of the Democrats who seem incapable of accomplishing anything meaningful.

 

[fantomena]

As a Scandinavian I would rather have Hillary than any republican in the white house.

However, sicne Bernies politics allign way more with Scandinavian socialdemocratic politics he's much better than Hillary in most ways except for gun control where Hillary beats Bernie.

TLDR: Bernie >>>>>> Hillary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Republican

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

I'll take sanders or Clinton as president, doesn't matter to me. I just don't want the current lot of republicans choosing two-three Supreme Court justices...

We would have to deal with the fallout for decades....

 

[JesseEwiak]

It's a huge point because people are sick of the Democrats who seem incapable of accomplishing anything meaningful.

Nothing meaningful aside from saving the nation from a 2nd Great Depression, the biggest expansion of the social safety net in decades, passing the first real regulation of Wall Street in decades, etc, etc.

No, we're not Sweden. You can't turn into Sweden in six months, when half the nation thinks you're going to steal their guns and make their sons have gay marriages from day one, it's a tough hard slog.

Because we're a nation where change is much harder than in other nations due to how our institutions are set up. In a parliamentary system, a party with a majority is an elected dictatorship. They don't have to deal with midterm elections, a Senate where a state with eight people and a cow has the same power as California, and massive decentralization of powers.

That mean you can't criticize the Democratic Party, but criticize it for the failures they've actually had, instead of the ones in your head.

 

[Flying Toaster]

It's a huge point because people are sick of the Democrats who seem incapable of accomplishing anything meaningful.

Or more importantly keeping the status quo. I see how well keeping shit has gone since Reagan. Time for a change even if it takes forever to implement. The Democrats won't take the drive for that change seriously if we keep voting for "safe" choices.

 

[StickSoldier]

Ugh man, I like Bernie because he feels genuine, real, and seems to connect with people. Clinton to me, while I will vote for her if she's over Bernie, I just don't feel that connection like I do with Bernie. I really don't feel it's fair for me to voice my opinion on her, though, since I really haven't watched much on her other than what I see on TV.

I actually think that it's not anything particularity against Hilary C, but Bernie really captivated me because of his videos that people were posting on Facebook. The first video I watched of Bernie was when he was giving a speech at a University, and during a Q&A session, a Muslim student started to ask him about discrimination against Muslims like herself. He stopped her during the question, and made her come on stage, gave her a big hug, then had her continue with the question. He just openly invited her into his personal space with no second guesses.

I really admired that. Like I don't know if it was scripted or not, but I was like literally in tears because of how emotional that whole scene was. Ever since then, I've really grew to like Bernie and read/watch more of his videos. He really hasn't disappointed me in what I feel like he is as a person. I feel like his character is truly genuine, and watching his other interviews, like the one with Killer Mike, just seems to reaffirm my beliefs about him as a person.

I know that doesn't mean he's a good politician, and I am so naive when it comes to politics, but damn if that old man doesn't have something about him that makes me want to follow his lead.

PS
Here's a video of that interaction with Bernie and the Muslim student.

Link

 

[qcf x2]

She is creepily mechanical, and claiming to be all things to all people rubs a lot of people the wrong way. There's tactful pandering and then there's pretending to be every non-conservative's best friend, err, abuela. A lot of people feel let down by Obama, and he has way more charisma / trustworthiness, so why are they gonna buy into Hillary's claims that she is going to cater to each and every group? People feel like whatever newsworthy thing she does is just her team hustling people for votes.

 

[jackissocool]

Or more importantly keeping the status quo. I see how well keeping shit has gone since Reagan. Time for a change even if it takes forever to implement. The Democrats won't take the drive for that change seriously if we keep voting for "safe" choices.

Look at this, I don't even need to respond top people. Perfectly put

 

[cDNA]

It's a huge point because people are sick of the Democrats who seem incapable of accomplishing anything meaningful.

Meaningful for whom, the Obama administration has accomplished many of their goals. What do you think Bernie is gonna accomplish? How is he alone gonna change the Democratic party, much less deal with the republican opposition? Are you gonna bail on Bernie when he had to compromise may on many of their promises?

 

[John Dunbar]

was this "i actually have a grandchild" a gibe against sanders? if so, kind of a dick thing to say (aren't sanders' grandkids adopted or kids of his stepchildren?).

 

[User 463088]

It's a huge point because people are sick of the Democrats who seem incapable of accomplishing anything meaningful.

Uh, the Democratic Party has brought to us the Affordable Care Act, the end of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, passed Dodd-Frank, helped to work towards decreasing the pay gap with the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, confirmed two liberals to the Supreme Court who, by their appointment, helped to bring marriage equality to all 50 states, we've expanded CHIP, and passed the Stimulus.

That doesn't even count the executive actions that a Democratic President has taken to help try and curtail gun violence, protect DREAMERS, open relations with Cuba, etc.

So, ya, nothing really meaningful has come out of the Democratic Party in a while. I'm sorry it's not maybe as fast as you would like it to be, but we live in a system designed to move slow. It's designed to prevent ideologues, even ones with which we agree, from pushing too far.

 

[B-Dubs]

was this "i actually have a grandchild" a gibe against sanders? if so, kind of a dick thing to say (aren't sanders' grandkids adopted or kids of his stepchildren?).

You could only read it as a hit against Sanders if you really stretch and are kinda crazy.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Or more importantly keeping the status quo. I see how well keeping shit has gone since Reagan. Time for a change even if it takes forever to implement. The Democrats won't take the drive for that change seriously if we keep voting for "safe" choices.

I agree, when Bernie gets nominated, there'll be a change. There'll be a change when with a Republican Congress, Ted Cruz massively cuts taxes, eliminates funding to Planned Parenthood, and nominates 3 young Supreme Court justices who will overturn Roe v Wade, most regulations, and basically makes it impossible to form a union.

 

[danwarb]

Because she, like most, treats the public and her supporters with contempt. It's cool to mislead the plebs if it gets her an edge.

Sanders has been saying the same things for decades. Clinton says whatever it's safe to say for "influential" backers and power. Just watch her resort to more fear politics to fend of the Bern. Sanders is what people hoped Obama would be, but he was just playing us plebs like Clinton is. She's not a bad person, she's just hangs out with the 1/10th of 1% too much and has lost perspective.

 

[Flying Toaster]

Meaningful for whom, the Obama administration has accomplished many of their goals. What do you think Bernie is gonna accomplish? How is he alone gonna change the Democratic party, much less deal with the republican opposition? Are you gonna bail on Bernie when he had to compromise may on many of their promises?

It is not that black and white. Will he be elected and everything changes? No. The point is that just going for the Democrats safe choice always allows the Democratic party to play the safe bet. If safe bets are what we have had and continue to have then seriously there will never be hard pushes for changes.

Bernie gets elected he won't be a magic bullet or pill. What he will be is a push for more candidates like him from the Presidential level all the way down to local/state politics.

Obama got elected great! What did the DNC do to push local and state level political movements? Nothing of importance.

 

[HylianTom]

Meaningful for whom, the Obama administration has accomplished many of their goals. What do you think Bernie is gonna accomplish? How is he alone gonna change the Democratic party, much less deal with the republican opposition? Are you gonna bail on Bernie when he had to compromise may on many of their promises?

It's almost as though some are deliberately ignoring the fact that there's an opposition party here. And a very successful one at that.

Folks wonder where this "wave of the magic wand" reputation comes from? It's this kind of buffoonery. We have a system of government that provides opposition plenty of ways to stifle progress. The Democrats do not exist within a vacuum by themselves, and to pretend otherwise is either willfully naive or deliberately deceptive.

 

[fantomena]

You could only read it as a hit against Sanders if you really stretch and are kinda crazy.

Aren't most americans crazy though? I mean, USA did elect Bush twice.

 

[John Dunbar]

You could only read it as a hit against Sanders if you really stretch and are kinda crazy.

who are "the people who talk about their extraordinary grandchildren" but apparently don't have any? does she mean republicans then?

 

[B-Dubs]

It is not that black and white. Will he be elected and everything changes? No. The point is that just going for the Democrats safe choice always allows the Democratic party to play the safe bet. If safe bets are what we have had and continue to have then seriously there will never be hard pushes for changes.

Bernie gets elected he won't be a magic bullet or pill. What he will be is a push for more candidates like him from the Presidential level all the way down to local/state politics.

Except there have been big changes in the last 8 years. Maybe not as big as you want, but acting like we're going nowhere is just wrong.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Except there have been big changes in the last 8 years. Maybe not as big as you want, but acting like we're going nowhere is just wrong.

Sorry, we're not Sweden or Canada, so Obama's a neoliberal corporate shill who's just the same as the Republican's.

 

[JustenP88]

who are "the people who talk about their extraordinary grandchildren" but apparently don't have any? does she mean republicans then?

I dunno who she's talking about but I can't believe she'd intentionally say something that stupid.

 

[Muzy72]

I am extremely excited about her, but I would never discuss it on GAF.

Pretty much.

It's really tiresome hearing about how "fake" she is or that she's not a "real" progressive. I'm absolutely enthused about a Hillary presidency, even donated to her campaign and proudly wear my Hillary swag everywhere. Might even volunteer for her campaign.

 

[User 463088]

who are "the people who talk about their extraordinary grandchildren" but apparently don't have any? does she mean republicans then?

It's a joke. A stupid joke. You ask my mom if her grand-kids are extraordinary, she says yes...even though they're probably quite ordinary, and another grandparent would definitely think they're ordinary.

It's the verbal equivalent of a a "World's Best Dad" mug. She's just saying "Ya, other people say they have extraordinary grandchildren, but I definitely do!" it's a stupid nothing.

But, by all means, if you feel something like this is a personal attack, I'd HIGHLY recommend moving to a bunker in South America should Bernie get the nomination.

 

[Flying Toaster]

Except there have been big changes in the last 8 years. Maybe not as big as you want, but acting like we're going nowhere is just wrong.

The DNC has done absolutely little to nothing in pushing for what was started. I do see the tea party forming and the GOP going even crazier...

Is Clinton really the answer to the fringe element of the far Right?

Edit:

Why settle for establishment politics? Why move the goal post each 4 year election cycle and hope for the best? Sanders as a person isn't going to do shit. Sanders as an idea is what is important. I don't disagree that Hilary is better than anything the GOP puts down. But really at this point we are settling and that is exactly what my problem is.

 

[B-Dubs]

The DNC has done absolutely little to nothing in pushing for what was started. I do see the tea party forming and the GOP going even crazier...

Is Clinton really the answer to the fringe element of the far Right?

Between Clinton and Bernie, which one has been raising money for down ticket races?

 

[JesseEwiak]

The DNC has done absolutely little to nothing in pushing for what was started. I do see the tea party forming and the GOP going even crazier...

Is Clinton really the answer to the fringe element of the far Right?

You know the phrase, "don't hand your enemy a lifeboat as he's drowning?"

A steady, moderate hand is just the face the DNC needs when the GOP is going nuts - not a radical of their own. Nobody new is voting for the GOP because they've gone crazy, they're just better representing the crazy people who have been voting for them since the 80s

 

[jackissocool]

You know the phrase, "don't hand your enemy a lifeboat as he's drowning?"

A steady, moderate hand is just the face the DNC needs when the GOP is going nuts - not a radical of their own. Nobody new is voting for the GOP because they've gone crazy, they're just better representing the crazy people who have been voting for them since the 80s

She's not moderate. She's solidly right wing.

 

[User 463088]

The DNC has done absolutely little to nothing in pushing for what was started. I do see the tea party forming and the GOP going even crazier...

Is Clinton really the answer to the fringe element of the far Right?

Wait...wait...wait.

The DNC is nothing more than the organization to nominate Democrats, first of all. And, Democrats had nothing to do with the passage of the ACA, Lilly Ledbetter, Dodd-Frank, the Obama nominated justices, the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell.

It wasn't Pelosi and Reid in the House and Senate making sure their people voted for the Bills? Who...who was it then?

The GOP is crazy BECAUSE of the things we've done. We've made it so us gays aren't 2nd class citizens when it comes to marriage. They hate that. We're helping poor people get healthcare. They hate that. The rise of the Tea Party is BECAUSE of the progress we've made.

Well, that and Obama is black, but we all know that .

 

[foxtrot3d]

It's a joke. A stupid joke. You ask my mom if her grand-kids are extraordinary, she says yes...even though they're probably quite ordinary, and another grandparent would definitely think they're ordinary.

It's the verbal equivalent of a a "World's Best Dad" mug. She's just saying "Ya, other people say they have extraordinary grandchildren, but I definitely do!" it's a stupid nothing.

But, by all means, if you feel something like this is a personal attack, I'd HIGHLY recommend moving to a bunker in South America should Bernie get the nomination.

That's not what she meant, she's talking about politicians who reference making the country safe or better for you and your grand-kids or speak about grandchildren while not actually having any. It's a very straight forward jab. It's the equivalent of "Republicans talk about mothers but I'm actually a mother so X."

 

[eBay Huckster]

Would you mind linking one of those posts? I'd be curious to see the argument.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=191895336&postcount=7309
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=191896020&postcount=7313

First post addresses, albeit broadly, the issues pigeon has with his policy platform (and thus the ones I have).

Second post addresses one of those issues in particular (immigration).

Both he and I can go into more detail on finreg as well, but you'll probably want to ask him about that (as I'll be indisposed for a lot of the next two days starting in about an hour)

 

[HylianTom]

She's not moderate. She's solidly right wing.

This is a statement that speaks for itself.

Thank you.

 

[NeoXChaos]

She's not moderate. She's solidly right wing.

absolute garbage and totally false.