The Scene with Han and Ben almost hit me as hard, it was about 80% there
Still cant top Yoda in empire ,they wont top it, its just incredible.
[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
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The Scene with Han and Ben almost hit me as hard, it was about 80% there
Still cant top Yoda in empire ,they wont top it, its just incredible.
Bragmariosan
Banned
Was very let down when seeing this film. Can't believe how much praise this movie is getting. Was expecting a great new story and I got to see that but in pretty much the worst way possible. Rey is an awesome character and probably the only thing I enjoyed in the film besides Harrison Ford and BB8. Fin had potential but he was almost like the real life version of Jar Jar Binks, always fumbling and sweating and was a mess of a character. Poe Dameron, or w.e his name was also underdeveloped. Besides being the pilot we didn't get to see much of him and was almost forgettable. He could've been excluded from the movie altogether in my opinion. The rest of the film was so bad and predictable that almost left the theater midway. Literally after the first 30 mins I could see where the film was going.The Starkiller base almost made me laugh in the theater and was almost as bad as when Vader yelled out NOOOO!! in episode 3. Another Deathstar but this time it is 10 TIMES BIGGER!! They even had to show diagrams to show the difference between the two. Kylo Ren was also a missed opportunity, such a disappointing villain. He went from force stopping blaster lazers in mid-air and then being pwned by a girl who only learned the force in like 30 minutes. Granted they explain he got hit by a powerful blaster but they could've came up with another idea instead of that. The land splitting up dividing the 2 after Rey basically won was also so bad. I only waited till the end because I wanted to see Luke and dude didn't even say a word.
It's pretty crazy that I am actually thinking the prequels were not that bad after seeing this film
It's pretty crazy that I am actually thinking the prequels were not that bad after seeing this film
Celebration is all but guaranteed, I think.I heard there was definitely no rogue one teaser
Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but I disagree with basically everything you just posted. I can understand people not liking the movie much, but putting it on prequel level or worse just seems bizarre to me.
Saw this for a 7th and final time in theaters, last night. I'm still amazed at how great the character work is in the film, just incredible execution across the new set of players. I don't think it's the best Star Wars - I'll still give that to Empire by a nose - but it's easily the most nuanced in terms of character development and interactions.
There's an enormous amount of non-verbal story and development at work. It's on full display in the interrogation scene, but runs through the entire film. I particularly like how you can tell when Rey figures out that Finn is not actually Resistance (as they're hiding while the Falcon is captured). Lots of little beats like this that are totally missing from the prequels, and even ANH.
I hesitate to call an opinion wrong, but the Finn = Jar Jar comparison is really odd to me. There's nothing similar about them.
There's an enormous amount of non-verbal story and development at work. It's on full display in the interrogation scene, but runs through the entire film. I particularly like how you can tell when Rey figures out that Finn is not actually Resistance (as they're hiding while the Falcon is captured). Lots of little beats like this that are totally missing from the prequels, and even ANH.
I hesitate to call an opinion wrong, but the Finn = Jar Jar comparison is really odd to me. There's nothing similar about them.
Probably a mistake to have him step in poo doo coming off the shuttle into the rebel base if they wanted to avoid that comparison.
Bragmariosan
Banned
I dunno i guess it was that his acting was off or didn't feel like a real character to me. Jar Jar always was like that for me (besides his annoying/comedic character). I mean when there making a plan to destroy the Star killer base, he helps but he was the Janitor? That part felt really stupid to me. Yea i guess its funny, but I don't know felt misplaced in star wars film. Humor is good in certain films but the overall tone of this film felt too comedic or just too much jokes all around. The fact they blew up this deathstar planet in the last 30 mins of the film was a letdown. I mean it had potential, it had much more destructive power and was like planet in itself, why not have this weapon be destroyed in the next film? Instead it only took like 6 x-wings and a trench run just like the first one. You would think the First Order wouldn't make the same mistake by designing it with the same weakness.
prag16
Banned
You hit on almost all the talking points. If you told me this was a troll post I would have believed it after the Finn/JarJar comparison. And especially after that last line.
Almost everything about Starkiller as a concept was kinda lame. The film has its issues, as has been discussed exhaustively, but I have to think a lot of the people who came out strongly disliking it must have entered with a ton of baggage. Or cynicism. Or something.
I liked it a lot the first time. And the second time was even better without the weight of expectations.
Bragmariosan
Banned
hahah yea it is bizarre. TFA is a better film than the prequels but not a better star wars film in my opinion. For me ep 1 and 3 are better. Say what you want about Lucas, He at least told an original story. The Prequel Trilogy feels different and distinct from the original trilogy. The only thing that was really bad about them was the over use of CGI and dialogue. The ideas and story were still better in my opinion (so far).
In terms of Villains
Darth Maul > Kylo Ren
Palatine > Snoke
Soundtrack - TFA probably has the least memorable score out of all movies.
How does Maul beat Kylo? I mean I guess in terms of looking cool with no characterization to get in the way of the cool?
And comparing Palpy to Snoke is like comparing the 10 sec cameo in ESB which maybe you are?
excelsiorlef
Member
I almost want to believe you're an AI built to try and pass the Star Wars Turing Test.
You literally sound like a greatest hits post sourced from every over the top negative hyperbolic reaction to TFA.
Note I don't doubt your sincerity but it's still uncanny
Bragmariosan
Banned
Maul beats kylo even with no characterization, he didn't even need to talk and was better. Kylo started going downhill the more you learned about him. He is basically a wannabe vader who is not as good, basically a depressed emo kid.
Yea I guess the palp/snoke comparison isn't fair as we seen so little of snoke. From what what has been shown in the movie is not that great so far. Hopefully he gets better in the next films. Would have preferred a real suit or actor than the cgi tho.
Bragmariosan
Banned
That was the main things I didn't like about the film. I guess a lot of people/fans also feel the same way. It was not a bad films by all means I was just disappointed that it felt really similar to ANH.
Trigonometrize.
Member
It's almost as if he's a character with faults that'll help shape a story that's larger than himself and more interesting than him looking cool and saying nothing. Also, when was he ever depressed?
excelsiorlef
Member
I know I'm just saying it's like poetry... it rhymes
Bragmariosan
Banned
sorry maybe angry would be better. Seemed like he would have been really depressed or angry in his past to end up killing his father.
Darth Maul is not a character, it's a character design. A really great one, but he has literally no character.
I wonder why so many people want there to be a "twist" in this new trilogy? A twist, and a twist that's somehow going to be as powerful as the ESB twist?
Why can't the new trilogy just focus on telling a cool story with these new characters that doesn't have any kind of earth shattering twist? And given that everyone is expecting a twist, thus negating any impact an actual twist might have, I can't see what the point of having one at all would be. As it stands, Rey being a Skywalker isn't a twist. Rey being a random character isn't a twist. At this point, the only shocking thing they can do with episode 8 would be to kill Rey. That would be legitimately unexpected. Her dying in episode 9 wouldn't work, because that could be seen as a heroic sacrifice.
Killing Kylo in 8 or 9 wouldn't be twists either. Shocking parentage has been done already. Anakin was an immaculate conception, Luke and Leia are siblings and the children of Darth Vader. Kylo Ren is the son of Han Solo and Princess Leia, no even that wasn't played up as a major revelation in the film itself. It was stated kind of matter of factly and not dwelt on like the ESB reveal.
I think people expecting some kind of earth shattering reveal are setting themselves up for disappointment. The filmmakers just don't seem particularly interested in doing a surprise reveal. I think Rey's history is relevant, but couldn't be fit into this first film in a satisfactory way given the pacing and the plot of the film itself. Ditto for Finn. He doesn't even know who his family is, or where he'd even start to look for them if he could.
Maybe it's because I'm at a loss as to what a worthwhile, plot relevant, and actually surprising "twist" could be. I don't think the TFA is as much of a retread as A New Hope as the Internet claims, so I don't expect episodes 8 and 9 to be retreads of Empire and Jedi. Even Rey going to the dark side wouldn't be shocking. Well, I guess shocking in that the first female force user that actually gets shit done and is a badass turns evil for...reasons, would be shocking, but I don't think that's the kind of shocking we want or need.
The groundwork set in TFA is already putting it on a different narrative trajectory than the original trilogy, and even the prequel trilogy. I think that's why I'm so excited about the next two films. There is so much more potential there than just the filmmakers doing retreads of empire and Jedi.
Why can't the new trilogy just focus on telling a cool story with these new characters that doesn't have any kind of earth shattering twist? And given that everyone is expecting a twist, thus negating any impact an actual twist might have, I can't see what the point of having one at all would be. As it stands, Rey being a Skywalker isn't a twist. Rey being a random character isn't a twist. At this point, the only shocking thing they can do with episode 8 would be to kill Rey. That would be legitimately unexpected. Her dying in episode 9 wouldn't work, because that could be seen as a heroic sacrifice.
Killing Kylo in 8 or 9 wouldn't be twists either. Shocking parentage has been done already. Anakin was an immaculate conception, Luke and Leia are siblings and the children of Darth Vader. Kylo Ren is the son of Han Solo and Princess Leia, no even that wasn't played up as a major revelation in the film itself. It was stated kind of matter of factly and not dwelt on like the ESB reveal.
I think people expecting some kind of earth shattering reveal are setting themselves up for disappointment. The filmmakers just don't seem particularly interested in doing a surprise reveal. I think Rey's history is relevant, but couldn't be fit into this first film in a satisfactory way given the pacing and the plot of the film itself. Ditto for Finn. He doesn't even know who his family is, or where he'd even start to look for them if he could.
Maybe it's because I'm at a loss as to what a worthwhile, plot relevant, and actually surprising "twist" could be. I don't think the TFA is as much of a retread as A New Hope as the Internet claims, so I don't expect episodes 8 and 9 to be retreads of Empire and Jedi. Even Rey going to the dark side wouldn't be shocking. Well, I guess shocking in that the first female force user that actually gets shit done and is a badass turns evil for...reasons, would be shocking, but I don't think that's the kind of shocking we want or need.
The groundwork set in TFA is already putting it on a different narrative trajectory than the original trilogy, and even the prequel trilogy. I think that's why I'm so excited about the next two films. There is so much more potential there than just the filmmakers doing retreads of empire and Jedi.
Just as a side note, I'm still going back through and watching pre-release interviews with the cast, as I avoided all of them prior to seeing the film. Adam Driver wasn't allowed to say jack squat about Kylo Ren, so he kept making up different things about him in every interview I've seen. Here he's Jabba's brother, who spends the film looking for his car. In one I saw a few days ago, he described Kylo Ren as "an excellent cook", which I've decided is canon.
fastford58
Member
Clone wars Maul was a little more fleshed out if still one dimensional. Ren is still the better character, though.
brandonh83
Banned
There's a lot of nuance and density to the score. It's the least in your face Star Wars score which is apparently causing people to confuse it as "weak."
Even still, Rey's theme and the Resistance themes are just as awesome and memorable to me as any other theme.
Even still, Rey's theme and the Resistance themes are just as awesome and memorable to me as any other theme.
Trigonometrize.
Member
As someone that loved the movie, saw it four times, and listened to the music independent of the movie, I still haven't had the watershed moment of realizing its brillaince like many of you. It didn't give The First Order or the Resistance much of an identity, or really anybody outside of Rey. And even then, Rey's theme is several steps down from its comparables.
BuggyDClown
Member
This 100%. I've lurked more in these threads than posted but I see very eye to eye on this film with you.
I also saw it 7 times and that was my last. (4Dx baby) The thing I keep telling people is as you said how little exposition there is.
Some of my friends who are screen writers complain too much about coincidence and unearned story arcs as well as a mixed motivations. I keep telling them to see it again because there is far more nuance and character development and story that is told visually than they are giving the film credit for.
Repeat viewing of this movie really let it's story and characters shine. JJs minimal use of exposition was fantastic, especially for a film meant to fill us in on a galaxy we have been missing out on for so many decades.
It was never supposed too. The OT had a galaxy at war. The characters in the lead roles were motivated to stop the evil empire. That was their goal.
This movie is about two heroes who find one another causing them to find themselves. The galactic state of affairs between two opposing sides are just a mess they are caught up in and the catalyst to their meeting and rise to adventure. Finn didn't go back to star killer to destroy it, rey didn't go after kylo because he was evil. They both were caught up in something bigger than them, but again their actions were only necessities not their own personal aim.
BlastProcessing
Member
He lied during the planning to get on Starkiller to save Rey. Some people seem to miss this. The main difference between Finn and Jar Jar is that Finn is an actual character that has an actual character arc. They are so vastly different that I am having a hard time with the comparison.
Narratively Starkiller's purpose (other than to have a neat big bad thing to take down at the end of the film) is to destroy the Republic Leadership and fleet. After it served that purpose it was too OP to survive really.
It also didn't have the same weakness at all. They covered the sensitive parts with a massive ass structure. It's only when Chewie blows a giant hole for Poe to fly through that they do any real damage.
I get a kick out of how the New Order tried to fix the prior two Death Stars with the 3rd one. They put a massive armored cover over the weak point (Death Star #1 weakness) and had the shield around it projected from the base itself, not a moon (Death Star #2 weakness). And it gets blown up anyways. Throw in the towel on giant round death machines, already. Third time was not the charm.
I think this is one of the reasons we've seen so many people comment that the film is better on second viewing. We drop whatever expectations and build up we had going in and can appreciate the film on its own terms, but also start to see a lot of the nuance.
Another random note: After Han, Finn and Rey escape the freighter in the Falcon, Han turns to them and says, "So, fugitives, eh?" And they could have played the scene like Han was mad they didn't tell him. Instead, Han is impressed they pissed off the First Order, delivering the line like he's thinking, hmm, not not bad, kids, not bad at all.
So now they're obviously going to make a giant planet sized death star encased in an armored shell that projects a shield around itself and the armored shell only opens to fire. Can't fail this time!
Good catch, didn't think about it like that.
All new horseshit, whilst also making the original stuff worse when viewed through the new recontextualized lens. Turning Vader into Space Jesus, the fall of the Jedi being due to them being fucking idiots, Boba Fett as some dumb little kid... ugh.
Blueboys1306
Banned
Somebody above described it perfectly- the force awakens is a better film than the prequels but the prequels are better Star Wars films. By a fair margin too. It might even be a better film than return of the Jedi and a new hope but, again, they're all better Star Wars films.
Trigonometrize.
Member
The prequels are terrible films and Star Wars films, while TFA is good both. I don't see what's so un-Star Wars about TFA, especially over the prequels.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Gonna have to co-sign on the theory that TFA is a better film but the prequels are better Star Wars films.
Even as those prequels were fatiguing and embarrassing, they still all felt like they were original visions dropped in from some other creative universe. They were all creations that took me into novel territory in my psyche.
But TFA feels like post-MCU mindset 2010s Disney rushed a thinly veiled clone of ANH into theatres using a tried and tested blockbuster-template .... because that's exactly what it is. There's very little about it that fascinates me, as I-VI all did. It's just a typical fun adventure movie.
...
This is purely me, because I've seen the watch counts posted by others, but.... I've officially seen this only once in theatres, and I won't be returning for a second viewing. Maybe on home video it will grow on me, but the fact that I don't have the stomach to see it twice is a personal end of an era to me. I saw all the prequels multiple times (and I was no kid: already transitioning into adulthood then), because even when they were bad, I still found them to be stunningly original visions. I'm just not compelled to wander back into this experience again... it wasn't transcendent, it was just another Hollywood movie. Maybe I miss the hand of an auteur, bringing us something weird, rather than something calculated to please....
Even as those prequels were fatiguing and embarrassing, they still all felt like they were original visions dropped in from some other creative universe. They were all creations that took me into novel territory in my psyche.
But TFA feels like post-MCU mindset 2010s Disney rushed a thinly veiled clone of ANH into theatres using a tried and tested blockbuster-template .... because that's exactly what it is. There's very little about it that fascinates me, as I-VI all did. It's just a typical fun adventure movie.
...
This is purely me, because I've seen the watch counts posted by others, but.... I've officially seen this only once in theatres, and I won't be returning for a second viewing. Maybe on home video it will grow on me, but the fact that I don't have the stomach to see it twice is a personal end of an era to me. I saw all the prequels multiple times (and I was no kid: already transitioning into adulthood then), because even when they were bad, I still found them to be stunningly original visions. I'm just not compelled to wander back into this experience again... it wasn't transcendent, it was just another Hollywood movie. Maybe I miss the hand of an auteur, bringing us something weird, rather than something calculated to please....
Darth Maul - Only killed one Important charachter in the movies, Qui Gon, who also happened to be the the "Midichlorians" explainer and with him only being in one movie not many people wer attached to him.
Kylo Ren - he killed Han Solo.
Kylo Ren was the perfect representation of a out of control over emotional youngster, better than Anakin in the prequels, what Annakin should have been, in Time by the third movie he could be as good as Darth Vader was in the OT.
For the record i love the prequels, but episode seven was way better, it was a Star Wars film, regardless of whether it tread old ground or not, the prequels were just too political and very fancy (and them being very fancy is why i like the prequels still)
Kylo Ren - he killed Han Solo.
Kylo Ren was the perfect representation of a out of control over emotional youngster, better than Anakin in the prequels, what Annakin should have been, in Time by the third movie he could be as good as Darth Vader was in the OT.
For the record i love the prequels, but episode seven was way better, it was a Star Wars film, regardless of whether it tread old ground or not, the prequels were just too political and very fancy (and them being very fancy is why i like the prequels still)
I'd put it this way:
- The prequels are worse movies, worse Star Wars movies, but slightly more original Star Wars movies
- TFA is an unoriginal Star Wars sequel, but a better movie, a better Star Wars movie, and a good Star Wars reboot/introduction for the new generation.
Which explains why people tend to find the prequels worse and worse as they watch them more and more, but find that TFA grows on them on rewatch.
It's a case of Novelty vs. Disappointment: Novelty is exciting at first but wears off and leaves the prequels to their own (poorly-made) devices; Disappointment is, well, disappointing at first but also wears off and lets the film shine for what it is. Once you know the movie and what to expect, you can see the quality underneath.
Next superweapon should be a Death Dyson Sphere.
edit: actually a Death Dyson Swarm would be a pretty good idea, probably much harder to destroy...
BlastProcessing
Member
I just don't see it. For me, it's the tone that makes a Star Wars film. The prequels struggle to maintain a sense of joyful adventure. They are driven by a palpable sense of comradery. All too often they get mired in this funereal tone which is disrupted by bursts of slapstick comedy that feels forced. You can just feel the writer trying to lighten things up. The prequels are uneven in a way that makes them profoundly un-Star Warsy for me.
TFA has the energy, it has the tone, it sure as hell has the sense of comradery. It doesn't feel rushed and it sure as hell doesn't feel like a slavish clone.
I wouldn't say that it's aping modern Marvel films; I would say that Modern Marvel films are aping classic Star Wars.
I will say his reaction to Phantasma in the shield room broke the 4th wall for me. It just seemed... Out of character and out of universe.
But it was a tiny problem. And it was the least Jar-Jar Jar-Jar thing ever.
This is well-put.
I feel the same way. Before this movie came out, I was looking forward to jumping into this thread and making tons of posts analyzing it to death, but that didn't happen. There's no real depth to talk about here. That's why, when I see posts of people gushing about how smart this movie is, I'm just totally confused.
You're making a strawman. I wasn't expecting high art, but something that engaged my imagination and brought something new to the table.
Dude, the very types of comments I'm referencing occurred on this very page.
Well, it did for me. Very curious about the developements the Galaxy far far away made in the last 30 years, I am even a little bit annoyed that we learned so few about the political structur of the new republic. But since every Star Wars movie kinda dropped you right in the middle of something its kinda ok.
And I think enough stuff dropped out of the movie over what can be speculated. The Snoke = Plagius stuff, the theories about Rey. Even when they all started to become fucking stupid as time moved on.
But for each their own, I am sorry when it didnt worked for you.
OK, I thought you were talking about a relevant amount of posts, not like three in a thread with multiple hundred pages.
prag16
Banned
I'm definitely kinder to the prequels than most hardcore fans. But this is so far off base I don't know where to begin. How in the hell is TFA not true Star Wars??
Abrams Star Trek isn't true Star Trek. But we don't have the equivalent situation with Star Wars, at all.
brandonh83
Banned
I'm more fascinated by how this story is going to play out, what's up with Rey, Snoke, where Kylo Ren is going, etc. than anything in the prequels and even stuff in the originals. I think there are actually more interesting things going on plot wise than ever before. The wait for VIII is far more agonizing because of what was set up in VII to me. I think the oh it's too much like IV arguments are ignorant to what the story is actually doing on its own. The comparisons are very surface-level at best. When you start actually combing details an inch below the plot they're very different films.
Happens not to often, but I completly agree. The whole Rip off talk is hyperbolic bullshit.
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