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[brandonh83]

Happens not to often, but I completly agree. The whole Rip off talk is hyperbolic bullshit.

There are similarities and coincidences. Welcome to Star Wars. Before someone gives me a comparison list, yeah, I've seen the movies and I'm aware of every single one. Yet there's a huge difference between an entire climax centered squarely on Xwings attacking a space station and briefly seeing Xwings attacking a space station as a means to an end while the actual climax is a lightsaber fight in a dark snowy forest, something we've never seen before.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

There are similarities and coincidences. Welcome to Star Wars. Before someone gives me a comparison list, yeah, I've seen the movies and I'm aware of every single one. Yet there's a huge difference between an entire climax centered squarely on Xwings attacking a space station and briefly seeing Xwings attacking a space station as a means to an end while the actual climax is a lightsaber fight in a dark snowy forest, something we've never seen before.

But there is a character who feels kinda lost on a desert planet and a cantina scene, so its a Ripoff /s

 

[prag16]

Happens not to often, but I completly agree. The whole Rip off talk is hyperbolic bullshit.

Most of the criticism ends up being hyperbolic bullshit, bullshit that we've cycled through numerous times in these topics.

 

[brandonh83]

But there is a character who feels kinda lost on a desert planet and a cantina scene, so its a Ripoff /s

I think people are right about the comparisons I'm just arguing against it being detrimental or that the two films are too samey. That's where I disagree. Again yes on a very thin surface level you have stuff like Luke and Rey growing up on a desolate planet and being Force sensitive and good pilots and yadda yadda yet they are different in many ways such as personality and upbringing and what they actually go through in the films.

I agree about the prequels feeling more original, but at the same time it makes more sense for the new movies to feel aesthetically similar to the originals due to the time period and how the Imperial reign changed the galaxy. The prequels were going to be in more of a position to be different as they were before the "dark timez" and there being a large Jedi Order and events happening in more elegant and aesthetically clean and over-designed settings because of the story being centered around politicians and Jedi.

It just made sense, as what VII is made sense.

 

[Boke1879]

This is me. Saw TFA like 4 or 5 times. The first time the callbacks were there for people watching the movie for the first time. Hit with the audience well. But after that. After 2 or 3 rewatches those callbacks lose impact and the movie actually stands pretty damn well on it's own.

Like it was said above the story going forward is exciting and I can't wait. Like I don't know where this story is going also can't wait to see the growth of the characters.

 

[brandonh83]

At first I was admittedly kinda down on the settings, but the more I watched it, that changed. Sure, Maz's castle is on a forest environment which is boring, but the focus was on her castle itself which I thought was at least a bit different. Starkiller Base is built into a snow planet and while we've seen something similar to the base itself, being etched into snow planet was interesting. In the long run I feel like each environment whether desert or forest or snow had interesting and fantastical details that helped make them stand on their own.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Gonna have to co-sign on the theory that TFA is a better film but the prequels are better Star Wars films.

The prequels were both bad films, and very bad Star Wars films, because they fundamentally lost sight of what made the OT work. It was partly the setting and universe - but it was also the characters. The fact that we could relate to them, there's a recognizable journey through that great universe, they form friendships and makeshift families. There's humor born from these characters, and moments of compassion and conflict we care about because of it. The prequels were all spectacle, and all hollow shell, totally devoid of humanity.

The Force Awakens is a pastiche of the OT in many ways, but that's really window dressing for what's important - the characters and their journey. Starkiller Base is a perfect example. Clearly it's there so we get a parallel ending to A New Hope, right down to a brief trench run. But that's not the focus of the film, nor even the real climax. It's really there as a backdrop for Han, Finn and Rey to confront Ren (in that order). The film has set up their relationships, how they relate to one another, and made us care about (or at least, in Ren's case, understand) them. And those relationships then play out in action: a desperate father's compassionate plea to his son; a son falling completely to the dark side; a man on the run, finally facing the very thing he's been running from, and doing so against hopeless odds to defend someone who once told him he didn't need help - until she desperately did; a woman finally taking control of her future and embracing her potential.

That's what The Force Awakens is really about, and that's also the kind of thing the OT was really about. These conflicts are what is playing out in the action. What the prequels got was the action - and none of the character work.

Here I'll defer to Plinkett, because video is better than words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORWPCCzSgu0#t=355s

(about the six minute mark if the link doesn't take you there)

This is why the duels at the end of The Force Awakens are so great. There's a line in that video where Plinkett says, "Three guys we know nothing about fighting each other in a scene we have no interest in. Their flawless choreography lacks all humanity and emotion."

That's exactly the opposite of the three-way fight at the end of TFA, where characters we care about, understand and relate to are in conflict for reasons that make sense. Their choreography is rough and brutal, their relationships and emotions playing out through the action of the fight. This is what every duel in the OT films did. TFA is a return to form.

To be clear, it's fine to like the prequels. Lots of people do. But they are really shitty Star Wars films for the same reasons The Force Awakens is a great one.

 

[Vyer]

Getting away from their quality, even the idea of the prequels being 'better' Star Wars films just doesn't hold any water to me. In fact they seemed to go out of their way to damage so many aspects that have been/should have been great (the force becoming midichlorians, Vader being watered down into the mess that is PT Anakin, lightsaber fights becoming whirling dance routines, etc). They still have to be acknowledged as SW, and part of the story, for better or worse, obviously. But they falter in so many ares on the whole.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

The setting is what makes the prequels very un-Star Wars for me. The sense of lonliness that was in the original trilogy like this:

this

and this

was replaced by this:

this

and this

TFA brought that back for me. And I'm not cherry-picking. There are of course exceptions, but it is miles apart on the whole.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Geonosis was pretty lonely outside of the big battle.
One could post a picture of the Battle of Hoth or the big ass battle over and on Endor, those places werent lonely either.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

Geonosis was pretty lonely outside of the big battle.
One could post a picture of the Battle of Hoth or the big ass battle over and on Endor, those places werent lonely either.

Sure, but I'm not about to post every frame of all six movies to have a completely fair comparison. There ARE exceptions. But the main setting of the prequels was Courascant, with Tatoonie also being important. The former is a colossal city with people and flying cars and shit fucking everywhere while the latter got turned into a huge stadium arena and tons of alien hustle 'n' bustle on the side. Also Naboo with its giant underwater rabbit city and huge city with thousands of battle droids hanging out. Not even Cloud city, probably the most densely populated location of the OT, comes close to any of these.

 

[OrlanisWorks]

Getting away from their quality, even the idea of the prequels being 'better' Star Wars films just doesn't hold any water to me. In fact they seemed to go out of their way to damage so many aspects that have been/should have been great (the force becoming midichlorians, Vader being watered down into the mess that is PT Anakin, lightsaber fights becoming whirling dance routines, etc). They still have to be acknowledged as SW, and part of the story, for better or worse, obviously. But they falter in so many ares on the whole.

I feel about the same way. George Lucas did a very good job backtracking and fucking up some unknowns that had only hints for in the OT. Stuff we could speculate about in the OT before the prequels were open, then the prequels came and tried so hard to tie in to all kinds of details for the prequels. Lightsaber battles in the prequels, I can look pass because they were, for the most part, pretty cool to look at.

This movie is a better Star Wars because it lets me forget what the prequels did to the Star Wars lore and, I feel strongly, TFA was so goddamn fun and so many levels deeper than all of the prequels combined.

 

[The Broken Ska Record]

The prequels were both bad films, and very bad Star Wars films, because they fundamentally lost sight of what made the OT work. It was partly the setting and universe - but it was also the characters. The fact that we could relate to them, there's a recognizable journey through that great universe, they form friendships and makeshift families. There's humor born from these characters, and moments of compassion and conflict we care about because of it. The prequels were all spectacle, and all hollow shell, totally devoid of humanity.

The Force Awakens is a pastiche of the OT in many ways, but that's really window dressing for what's important - the characters and their journey. Starkiller Base is a perfect example. Clearly it's there so we get a parallel ending to A New Hope, right down to a brief trench run. But that's not the focus of the film, nor even the real climax. It's really there as a backdrop for Han, Finn and Rey to confront Ren (in that order). The film has set up their relationships, how they relate to one another, and made us care about (or at least, in Ren's case, understand) them. And those relationships then play out in action: a desperate father's compassionate plea to his son; a son falling completely to the dark side; a man on the run, finally facing the very thing he's been running from, and doing so against hopeless odds to defend someone who once told him he didn't need help - until she desperately did; a woman finally taking control of her future and embracing her potential.

That's what The Force Awakens is really about, and that's also the kind of thing the OT was really about. These conflicts are what is playing out in the action. What the prequels got was the action - and none of the character work.

Here I'll defer to Plinkett, because video is better than words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORWPCCzSgu0#t=355s

(about the six minute mark if the link doesn't take you there)

This is why the duels at the end of The Force Awakens are so great. There's a line in that video where Plinkett says, "Three guys we know nothing about fighting each other in a scene we have no interest in. Their flawless choreography lacks all humanity and emotion."

That's exactly the opposite of the three-way fight at the end of TFA, where characters we care about, understand and relate to are in conflict for reasons that make sense. Their choreography is rough and brutal, their relationships and emotions playing out through the action of the fight. This is what every duel in the OT films did. TFA is a return to form.

To be clear, it's fine to like the prequels. Lots of people do. But they are really shitty Star Wars films for the same reasons The Force Awakens is a great one.

The prequels try to add an extra layer that wasn't needed on top of the OT, as well.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

but most stuff of Prequel Tatooine happened not in the Bonta Eve Arena and Gungan City, its mostly Anakins Slave house in Mos Eisley and a 1:30 minutes scene were they standing on place in Gungan City before moving on. And we have one big shot of Theed and then the movie is always in small alleys against a couple of battledroids until the big confrontation in the end starts.
Its harder to argue against Coruscant, but like everything from
The movies here happens inside of buildings and the short time we see something outside of a building is a chase followed by a scene in an alley and a bar, which is a little bit more populated as the Special Editions Version of Mos Eisley in ANH.

Of course its your opinion and when you feel that way I can hardly say anything against it, but I think this is blown a little bit out of proportion and exaggerated.
And dont take this against you, its completly ok when you feel that way.

 

[BocoDragon]

I'm definitely kinder to the prequels than most hardcore fans. But this is so far off base I don't know where to begin. How in the hell is TFA not true Star Wars??

Abrams Star Trek isn't true Star Trek. But we don't have the equivalent situation with Star Wars, at all.

I think we absolutely do have the same phenomenon of Abrams Trek v OG Trek in the new Star Wars, but to a far lesser degree.

Even bad OG Trek felt like real Trek. The 2009 movie, though a better film than so much OG Trek garbage, feels like a fake. A totally new series in Star Trek's clothing.

Again, we have a much lesser situation with Star Wars, but I think the same dichotomy is there. I think TFA didn't pass a handful of fans' sniff test. It felt like an impostor. "Big budget fan fiction", I saw it called in a review. Despite the fact that it was a well-made movie, it lacked some essential flavor that even loathsome movies like AOTC did have.

Even as I watched this new movie which had a solid new cast, decently Star Wars tone, and even some big improvements to banter.... There was something else beneath the surface that was beginning to dawn on me. It was like a Malcolm Gladwell Blink moment, something that only a certain type of experienced fan would be sensitive to, and it was experienced viscerally: It was a copy.

I do feel kind of left behind by this series now. It's big, beloved... and not exactly the same thing I once loved. I'm sure this is exactly the same emotion as Trek fans had in 2009.

I wish I felt the "it's a new day for Star Wars" that I'm supposed to feel. But I have to admit that I don't.

 

[Aselith]

but most stuff of Prequel Tatooine happened not in the Bonta Eve Arena and Gungan City, its mostly Anakins Slave house in Mos Eisley and a 1:30 minutes scene were they standing on place in Gungan City before moving on. And we have one big shot of Theed and then the movie is always in small alleys against a couple of battledroids until the big confrontation in the end starts.
Its harder to argue against Coruscant, but like everything from
The movies here happens inside of buildings and the short time we see something outside of a building is a chase followed by a scene in an alley and a bar, which is a little bit more populated as the Special Editions Version of Mos Eisley in ANH.

Of course its your opinion and when you feel that way I can hardly say anything against it, but I think this is blown a little bit out of proportion and exaggerated.
And dont take this against you, its completly ok when you feel that way.

I think the reason that people feel like that is because the movies don't have any momentum in them. Much of the movies revolve around these overly elaborate battle scenes with tons of stuff on screen but no real stakes or characterization that go way too long OR wall of texty political scheme walk and talks and cringey romance novel scenes. The only thing that really sticks is the battle scenes and a few isolated lines.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Geonosis was pretty lonely outside of the big battle.
One could post a picture of the Battle of Hoth or the big ass battle over and on Endor, those places werent lonely either.

The Geonosis battle was shit. It was two faceless, utterly expendable armies bum rushing each other with no regard for tactics or safety.

Why Lucas made the Clone Wars one Redshirt army vs another Redshirt army I'll never know.

Spoiler

And yes, before a thousand people tell me, I know TCW addresses this. I don't care. That is irrelevant when discussing the flaws of the PT.

 

[BocoDragon]

Big post

I believe it goes without saying that TFA built realistic character relationships that the prequels utterly failed at. They are more in line with the OT, and thus "more Star Wars". So you have to understand that this isn't what people are saying when they say TFA doesn't feel like Star Wars.

Its that TFA feels like it was made within rails. It's a Disney movie, which has its own formula, and on top of that they were carefully trying to recreate the good aspects of the original. It consequently lacks any original or novel elements, and this was a series that was based upon delivering those.

Star Wars I-VI was like that wierd Thai food place on the corner. There was some wierd stuff in the mix, and some delicious ingredients you had never had before. Sometimes it was delicious, sometimes it was regrettable, but it was always interesting.

TFA is like the Thai place was bought out by a corporation, and franchised in mall food courts. The ingredients are standardized. You know it'll always taste decent, and you know it will never surprise you again.

 

[BlastProcessing]

I think we absolutely do have the same phenomenon of Abrams Trek v OG Trek in the new Star Wars, but to a far lesser degree.

Even bad OG Trek felt like real Trek. The 2009 movie, though a better film than so much OG Trek garbage, feels like a fake. A totally new series in Star Trek's clothing.

Again, we have a much lesser situation with Star Wars, but I think the same dichotomy is there. I think TFA didn't pass a handful of fans' sniff test. It felt like an impostor. "Big budget fan fiction", I saw it called in a review. Despite the fact that it was a well-made movie, it lacked some essential flavor that even loathsome movies like AOTC did have.

Even as I watched this new movie which had a solid new cast, decently Star Wars tone, and even some big improvements to banter.... There was something else beneath the surface that was beginning to dawn on me. It was like a Malcolm Gladwell Blink moment, something that only a certain type of experienced fan would be sensitive to, and it was experienced viscerally: It was a copy.

I do feel kind of left behind by this series now. It's big, beloved... and not exactly the same thing I once loved. I'm sure this is exactly the same emotion as Trek fans had in 2009.

I wish I felt the "it's a new day for Star Wars" that I'm supposed to feel. But I have to admit that I don't.

See if I had to sum up what the prequels were missing in one gif it would be this one.

For me this is the essence of Star Wars and the Prequels lack it entirely. Seriously there is more genuine joy in that 10 second scene then there is in 1-3 combined.

TFA has it in spades. I can appreciate that Star Wars means different things for different people, but for me the Prequels feel like big budget fan fiction with their over the top sets, emotionless fight scenes, flippy Yoda fan service and 2 dimensional characters.

TFA on the other hand was vibrant and confident in a way that the original trilogy was. The original trilogy wore it's emotions on it's sleeve where the prequels were content talking about emotion.

The original trilogies core was an amalgamation of myths inspired by Joseph Campbell's work. It has a universal appeal from its combination of archetypes. The prequels are based on much more narrow Judeo-Christian mythologies. It's all virgin births and sin and redemption. It's just a more dour palette of colors to paint with.

TFA brings back the broad mythical hero's journey and uses it as a background for interesting characters to work out their needs and desires. It's a better formula, a better move and completely in line with what Star Wars means to me.

 

[BocoDragon]

See if I had to sum up what the prequels were missing in one gif it would be this one.

For me this is the essence of Star Wars and the Prequels lack it entirely. Seriously there is more genuine joy in that 10 second scene then there is in 1-3 combined.

TFA has it in spades. I can appreciate that Star Wars means different things for different people, but for me the Prequels feel like big budget fan fiction with their over the top sets, emotionless fight scenes, flippy Yoda fan service and 2 dimensional characters.

TFA on the other hand was vibrant and confident in a way that the original trilogy was. The original trilogy wore it's emotions on it's sleeve where the prequels were content talking about emotion.

The original trilogies core was an amalgamation of myths inspired by Joseph Campbell's work. It has a universal appeal from its combination of archetypes. The prequels are based on much more narrow Judeo-Christian mythologies. It's all virgin births and sin and redemption. It's just a more dour palette of colors to paint with.

TFA brings back the broad mythical hero's journey and uses it as a background for interesting characters to work out their needs and desires. It's a better formula, a better move and completely in line with what Star Wars means to me.

It's more like the originals, because it's been codified into a specific formula that copies them exactly.

It will never surprise us again. Its wierd edges have been filed off, for better and for worse.

 

[Veelk]

It's more like the originals, because it's been codified into a specific formula that copies them exactly.

It will never surprise us again. Its wierd edges have been filed off, for better and for worse.

I have yet to meet a single person who wasn't taken aback by Kylo Ren's characterization when they saw the film for the first time. Some liked it, some didn't, but they all expected something other than what they got. Many also didn't expect them to kill off Han. And plenty of people had expected Finn to be the next Jedi, not Rey.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

I have yet to meet a single person who wasn't taken aback by Kylo Ren's characterization when they saw the film for the first time. Some liked it, some didn't, but they all expected something other than what they got. Many also didn't expect them to kill off Han. And plenty of people had expected Finn to be the next Jedi, not Rey.

Yeah, TFA didn't follow beat for beat what I expected out of it. Did not think Kylo Ren was going to be a young, unhinged sith user fighting the light.

 

[BlastProcessing]

It's more like the originals, because it's been codified into a specific formula that copies them exactly.

It will never surprise us again. Its wierd edges have been filed off, for better and for worse.

I was actually quite surprised by TFA. Kylo Ren being an obvious example. Such a fascinating and unexpected choice. How many big budget mega pics would create a villain that is a meta commentary on the worst parts of it's own fandom?

And I don't have many doubts that a Rian Johnson film is going to have some weird edges.

For me TFA is not a slavish copy. It uses its similarities to highlight its differences. It's much like Creed in that respect. They both start with an understanding of the source material and set new characters in familiar situations to create contrasts. For my money, it's artfully done.

I also don't really get the insinuation that Disney is some homogenization machine because that is in no way where their success has been, There is no company in media that more vigilantly nurtures and protects their IP than Disney does.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

I was actually quite surprised by TFA. Kylo Ren being an obvious example. Such a fascinating and unexpected choice. How many big budget mega pics would create a villain that is a meta commentary on the worst parts of it's own fandom?

And I don't have many doubts that a Rian Johnson film is going to have some weird edges.

For me TFA is not a slavish copy. It uses its similarities to highlight its differences. It's much like Creed in that respect. They both start with an understanding of the source material and set new characters in familiar situations to create contrasts. For my money, it's artfully done.

I also don't really get the insinuation that Disney is some homogenization machine because that is in no way where their success has been, There is no company in media that more vigilantly nurtures and protects their IP than Disney does.

A lot of people don't want to spend the time thinking about those differences and instead use the droid on desert planet + Death Star III nothing comparisons to fuel their hate for the nonexistent corporate machine at work with their favorite franchise and general motivation to dislike things by default. There are people out their with well articulated arguments like BocoDragon, but on the whole, I just want to shrug off this line of criticism.

 

[Aselith]

I also don't really get the insinuation that Disney is some homogenization machine because that is in no way where their success has been, There is no company in media that more vigilantly nurtures and protects their IP than Disney does.

Plus we've seen them let directors make some outside the box choices like Winter Soldier while it certainly was an action movie made some bold choices with how it told its story.

 

[BocoDragon]

And I don't have many doubts that a Rian Johnson film is going to have some weird edges.

We'll see. I don't think there's room in these production machines for truly original influence.

There hasn't been a single example of directorial originality in the MCU, for example. Every single person in the role of writer/director has played within their rails... Or been fired like Edgar Wright.

I also don't really get the insinuation that Disney is some homogenization machine because that is in no way where their success has been, There is no company in media that more vigilantly nurtures and protects their IP than Disney does.

Your latter sentence confirms the former sentence. In vigilantly protecting their IP, they standardize it and homogenize it.

My worse case scenario here isn't that Disney makes bad movies. My worst case scenario is the MCU. A safe, predictable formula in which no film is truly awful but nothing original ever happens.

Im sure there is a large audience who think that sounds just great. But this is exactly where I am left behind as a fan. I want Star Wars as novelty engine, not Star Wars as predictable fast food.

Plus we've seen them let directors make some outside the box choices like Winter Soldier while it certainly was an action movie made some bold choices with how it told its story.

Case in point. If someone thinks that Winter Soldier is an acceptable level of originality, then that's inadequate to me. It's only brave in a world of exceedingly safe mainstream Hollywood entertainment.

I should just give up and go home. Star Wars is indeed another MCU-style machine, now, isn't it?. I'm bored.

 

[Veelk]

What exactly surprised you in the prequels? The only thing I didn't really expect was them to imply anakin killing children. Other than that, the only surprise was it's badness.

 

[brandonh83]

It's a Disney movie, which has its own formula

It consequently lacks any original or novel elements

It isn't a Disney movie and I don't see where you're coming from about how it has no original elements as that's objectively incorrect.

 

[BocoDragon]

What exactly surprised you in the prequels? The only thing I didn't really expect was them to imply anakin killing children. Other than that, the only surprise was it's badness.

If you think back before those settings and characters seeped into the public consiousness of what Star Wars is, everything about the setup of those films was completely alien.

Now, they also sucked ... But I valued the chaos principle at play, that those movies could be anything.

On the other hand, TFA is the fan fiction we all could have written after watching the OT.

 

[Aselith]

Case in point. If someone thinks that Winter Soldier is an acceptable level of originality, then that's inadequate to me. It's only brave in a world of exceedingly safe mainstream Hollywood entertainment.

I should just give up and go home. Star Wars is indeed another MCU-style machine, now, isn't it?. I'm bored.

My point was more of Disney giving the directors some room to stretch their legs. Winter Soldier definitely rests well outside the norm for a superhero movie and shows that Disney is willing to let directors get a little more creative with their work.

Sorry they didn't craft up a blazing dumpster fire for you to moon over like George did?

 

[BocoDragon]

It isn't a Disney movie and I don't see where you're coming from about how it has no original elements as that's objectively incorrect.

Original elements such as... New aliens, a different Cantina, new Jedis, new Imperial officers?

It's well understood that TFA is sticking to an old formula. Let's not argue over something we all know.

And .. It is Disney. Disney's production methods, Disney's explicit and non-explicit rules. It governs all the thinking of people in Pixar, Marvel and now Lucas, whether it's different artists standing in the room or not.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Yeah, TFA didn't follow beat for beat what I expected out of it. Did not think Kylo Ren was going to be a young, unhinged sith user fighting the light.

The best description I've seen of him is that he's like a school shooter. Not all villains are elaborately designed monsters or cyborg's etc. Instead, he's a completely innocuous looking guy who has such a twisted perspective on history that he's been indoctrinated into a cult to do more horrible shit. That's fucking fascinating and refreshing for Star Wars.

 

[BocoDragon]

My point was more of Disney giving the directors some room to stretch their legs. Winter Soldier definitely rests well outside the norm for a superhero movie and shows that Disney is willing to let directors get a little more creative with their work.

Sorry they didn't craft up a blazing dumpster fire for you to moon over like George did?

Winter Soldier isn't even stretching legs. Its well within the formula. "This is the part where we tip over the status quo" is part of the status quo. James Bond just did it and so did Mission Impossible.

Why yes I would like a dumpster fire. At least that's interesting!

 

[BlastProcessing]

We'll see. I don't think there's room in these production machines for truly original influence.

There hasn't been a single example of directorial originality in the MCU, for example. Every single person in the role of writer/director has played within their rails... Or been fired like Edgar Wright.

I will just say that we have vastly different ideas about how the creative process works. A decade ago I would have agreed with you but, my stance has been changed greatly since I started making games and sitting in creative meetings.

Original doesn't matter. Ideas have almost no value. It's about understanding and execution.

Your latter sentence confirms the former sentence. In vigilantly protecting their IP, they standardize it and homogenize it.

Protect and nurture. The nurture is important there.

My worse case scenario here isn't that Disney makes bad movies. My worst case scenario is the MCU. A safe, predictable formula in which no film is truly awful but nothing original ever happens.

Im sure there is a large audience who think that sounds just great. But this is exactly where I am left behind as a fan. I want Star Wars as novelty engine, not Star Wars as predictable fast food.

I don't get how you constantly use the term fan fiction as a pejorative but also value novelty above execution. Fan fiction is often very much about poorly executed novelty for novelty's sake.

Case in point. If someone thinks that Winter Soldier is an acceptable level of originality, then that's inadequate to me. It's only brave in a world of exceedingly safe mainstream Hollywood entertainment.

I should just give up and go home. Star Wars is indeed another MCU-style machine, now, isn't it?. I'm bored.

If it isn't for you then it isn't for you. What would be an example of a series or work that does give you what you want?

Original elements such as... New aliens, a different Cantina, new Jedis, new Imperial officers?

It's well understood that TFA is sticking to an old formula. Let's not argue over something we all know.

And .. It is Disney. Disney's production methods, Disney's explicit and non-explicit rules. It governs all the thinking of people in Pixar, Marvel and now Lucas, whether it's different artists standing in the room or not.

Original elements such as the characters. It's the people and motivations that matter, that make a story vibrant.

Formulas exist for a reason. Repetition and variation is the foundation of creative expression.

What exactly are Disney's production methods? How did they affect TFA specifically? TFA was filmed in the locations and with the techniques of the original trilogy; Disney doesn't typically shoot in sound stages in the UK. The culture at Pixar is radically different than the Disney culture and if anything Disney has been adopting Pixar's techniques not the other way around.

The MCU is an extension of how Marvel has been telling stories for decades.

 

[brandonh83]

Original elements such as... New aliens, a different Cantina, new Jedis, new Imperial officers?

It's well understood that TFA is sticking to an old formula. Let's not argue over something we all know.

And .. It is Disney. Disney's production methods, Disney's explicit and non-explicit rules. It governs all the thinking of people in Pixar, Marvel and now Lucas, whether it's different artists standing in the room or not.

It's a new story that sticks to a formula SW has always stuck to. And while Disney owns it, its a Lucasfilm production. How many Disney logos did you see before the movie began?

 

[BocoDragon]

I will just say that we have vastly different ideas about how the creative process works. A decade ago I would have agreed with you but, my stance has been changed greatly since I started making games and sitting in creative meetings.

Original doesn't matter. Ideas have almost no value. It's about understanding and execution.



Protect and nurture. The nurture is important there.



I don't get how you constantly use the term fan fiction as a pejorative but also value novelty above execution. Fan fiction is often very much about poorly executed novelty for novelty's sake.





If it isn't for you then it isn't for you. What would be an example of a series or work that does give you what you want?




Original elements such as the characters. It's the people and motivations that matter, than make a story vibrant.

Formulas exist for a reason. Repetition and variation is the foundation of creative expression.

What exactly are Disney's production methods? How did they affect TFA specifically? TFA was filmed in the locations and with the techniques of the original trilogy Disney doesn't typically shoot in sound stages in the UK. The culture at Pixar is radically different than the Disney culture and if anything Disney has been adopting Pixar's techniques not the other way around.

The MCU is an extension of how Marvel has been telling stories for decades.

Im leaving out the door so I can't go point by point. So I'll just sum up my feelings.

Some movies are shaped by the influence of individuals with their own odd views on reality, and these are consistently interesting to me. This could be an auteur situation, as it certainly was with Star Wars under Lucas. Or it could be like the Wachowskis on the Matrix films or Nolan on the Batman films. They imposed their unique bent on their projects to a degree that would not have arisen from comitee, and we get both heaven and hell from these original viewpoints. Is it a surprise that these movies all had shocking highs and bizzare embarassing lows? It's because they represent the flaws of a particular person's worldview.

But many films are shaped more by the shared reality of a comitee, and these are by definition regressive, because they only show us what a group of people have all agreed with each other that the most people will enjoy. There is merit in this type of thinking, because it's design-driven, "giving the people what they want". But it also means that it's devoid of surprise. Any surprise they give us, is the type of surprise that we'd expect them to give us.

So it occurs to me that my love of Star Wars has been sustained for decades because it's this wierd and idiosyncratic oddity from the mind of a strange individual. If it's distilled into a safe formula... I'm not sure I care anymore. I think I was into it for the novelty all along.

 

[The Villain]

Sorry not sorry but anyone who so much as breathes Finn and jar jar in the same sentence is on some dank shit

 

[Figboy79]

It's hard for me to get on board with the "didn't bring anything new" to the table camp.

The Prequels contrasted the OT as hard as they did because Lucas wanted to show how much different the galaxy was pre-Empire and Post Republic.

The prequels were like looking at old Norman Rockwell paintings, or watching an episode of Leave it to Beaver, while the OT was like looking at Andy Warhol. Very different tones and style.

This new trilogy is following the OT. It's going to be stylistically similar, even though time has passed, I feel like we wouldn't be seeing the same level of variety as seen in the PT. At least not yet.

The Phantom Menace had Coruscant, Tatooine, and Naboo as the primary locations. Nothing about those three planets screamed originality. One was a desert, the other was a city planet, and the other looked like some beautiful Italian villa. Episodes 2 and 3 were where we got to see a bit more alien looking worlds, and mainly episode 3. Episode two had Kamino, a water planet, Coruscant again, and Geonosis, which kind of looked liked Mars or the Arizona desert, with a bit of an ant hill vibe thrown in.

I wouldn't call them bastions of creativity and originality as far as settings go. I personally think they were neat settings for the PT, OT, and TFA. The TFA served to remind us why we love Star Wars. It wasn't the settings, as cool as they were. It was the characters. The problems people have with the PT isn't the setting. It's the mediocre and awful characters. With better, fully realized and empathetic characters, all the political stuff and subterfuge and intrigue would have gone over much better.

With TFA, we got a cast of great new characters mixed in with the old favorites. I think, because we were so invested in Rey, Finn, and Kylo, JJ and Kasdan could have gotten away with a little political indulgence fare and there. But they played it safe, and I can't blame them. They tapped into the familiar with this movie, but I never felt they over did it. Maybe it's because I've seen the movie multiple times now, that I think the differences between TFA and the OT far outweigh the thematically similarities.

Even the plot device of the Star Killer base is vastly different than the plot device of the Death Star (the destruction of Starkiller wasn't the end goal of the film. The Starkiller's purpose was to wipe out the republic, setting up a scenario in which the Resistance, going forward, is far more vulnerable to The First Order than the Rebel Alliance ever was to the Empire). The resistance has no fleet, just a squad of X-Wings. They have no more financial support demo the Republic. They are on their own.

Rey isn't Luke. Finn isn't Han. Poe isn't Leia, and Kylo isn't Vader. Each of the new characters has a trajectory that is much different than our classic crew of the OT. The setting is also a lot more bleak. It's all so compelling to me. Not to mention that this movie showed us a few aspects of the Force we hadn't seen before, or a new way of looking at them. Kylo's abilities, Rey's abilities, all displayed interesting possibilities for Force users. There's a lot of visual storytelling in nearly every frame of the movie that allows our minds to wander and wonder about what this 30 years later universe is about.

That alone is something the prequels never accomplished, despite all the weird CG aliens and giant flower petal planets. The conclusion of the prequels was a forgone conclusion. All of the shiny planets and species we knew we'd never see again, because they hadn't appeared in the OT films. Watto? Sebulba? Kaminoans? They don't exist as far as the OT goes.

This new trilogy is completely open. The filmmakers can do whatever they want. We don't know how Rey, Finn, Kylo, and Poe's journey will turn out. For me, that's what sets TFA above the prequels. It's the return of the unknown. That feeling of being lost in a world and piecing together information from visual or verbal scraps peppered throughout the movie. My anticipation for episode 8 info leaks is infinitely greater than it was for episode 7, and I barely followed any of that stuff back then.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Im leaving out the door so I can't go point by point. So I'll just sum up my feelings.

Some movies are shaped by the influence of individuals with their own odd views on reality, and these are consistently interesting to me. This could be an auteur situation, as it certainly was with Star Wars under Lucas. Or it could be like the Wachowskis on the Matrix films or Nolan on the Batman films. They imposed their unique bent on their projects to a degree that would not have arisen from comitee, and we get both heaven and hell from these original viewpoints. Is it a surprise that these movies all had shocking highs and bizzare embarassing lows? It's because they represent the flaws of a particular person's worldview.

But many films are shaped more by the shared reality of a comitee, and these are by definition regressive, because they only show us what a group of people have all agreed with each other that the most people will enjoy. There is merit in this type of thinking, because it's design-driven, "giving the people what they want". But it also means that it's devoid of surprise. Any surprise they give us, is the type of surprise that we'd expect them to give us.

So it occurs to me that my love of Star Wars has been sustained for decades because it's this wierd and idiosyncratic oddity from the mind of a strange individual. If it's distilled into a safe formula... I'm not sure I care anymore. I think I was into it for the novelty all along.

It's odd because both Empire and Jedi were very much not an auteur situation.

 

[Count Dookkake]

.

 

[Dead]

Although I enjoyed TFA, BocoDragon is dropping some truth seismic charges.

I really do hope that VIII is a little weirder and unpredictable.

Yeah.

I liked the movie quite a bit, but there's definitely a sense of something missing beneath the surface, much like with every disney/marvel movie (not to the radical extent of those movies though, just to be clear).

I hope 8 will feel very different because at this stage I'm not sure if it's more because JJ Abrams is a generally creatively inert filmmaker (doesn't mean some of his movies aren't entertaining) or because the movie truly has become part of a very well oiled machine.The sense of familiarity worked here, but they can't continue with that and they have to let some form of personal expression shine through with Rian Johnson's movie.

 

[Gozer the Gozerian]

Ya I really enjoyed VII but I will be very disappointed if the rest of the trilogy plays it as safe as VII did if that makes sense.

 

[prag16]

There was something else beneath the surface that was beginning to dawn on me. It was like a Malcolm Gladwell Blink moment, something that only a certain type of experienced fan would be sensitive to, and it was experienced viscerally: It was a copy.

Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

Agree to disagree I guess. The "certain type of experienced fan" == the curmudgeony type with a chip in their shoulder???

Sounds almost like the "this is fanfic because Lucas isn't directly involved" charge leveled by a small minority now and then.

 

[TheXbox]

Ya'll should be grateful Ep. VII follows the structure of ANH so closely. Every time the movie tries to do its own thing it breaks a little bit. Lor San Tekka is on the same planet as Rey because... Don't worry about it. Han is here now because... Scanners? We're at a cantina thing now because... Forget it. Hey, look, Maz has Luke's lightsaber! Boy, that's neat. Keep your fucking mouth shut, don't ask why. Hey, Maz disappeared from this movie! Okay. We need to get rid of the shields on Starkiller Base, let's exploit a senior officer who would never realistically sacrifice her soldiers and her career. Wow, Rey and Kylo are fighting! Whoa, where'd that convenient gulf in the earth come from?

The script is a giant chemical spill threatening to combust at any given moment. The only thing holding it together is this loose framework that tries to hit all the major beats of ANH, and it... mostly works.

 

[Vyer]

Lucas got to the point where he even made bad Star Wars films. Auteur or not - and I love and appreciate what he created - that doesn't really matter if the final output fails.

I'd rather be watching quality and entertainment in my blockbuster space adventure franchise movie (which is what Star Wars became long before the 1st trilogy was even complete, Disney or not). TFA pulls that off well. And it is a great mix of new and old.

That said, I understand and totally get wanting the next movie to have less OT beats. I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

 

[El Topo]

Ya'll should be grateful Ep. VII follows the structure of ANH so closely. Every time the movie tries to do its own thing it breaks a little bit. Lor San Tekka is on the same planet as Rey because... Don't worry about it. Han is here now because... Scanners? We're at a cantina thing now because... Forget it. Hey, look, Maz has Luke's lightsaber! Boy, that's neat. Keep your fucking mouth shut, don't ask why. Hey, Maz disappeared from this movie! Okay. We need to get rid of the shields on Starkiller Base, let's exploit a senior officer who would never realistically sacrifice her soldiers and her career. Wow, Rey and Kylo are fighting! Whoa, where'd that convenient gulf in the earth come from?

The script is a giant chemical spill threatening to combust at any given moment. The only thing holding it together is this loose framework that tries to hit all the major beats of ANH, and it... mostly works.

C3P0 and R2D2 end up in the hands of Luke by a sheer miracle.
Since they have not given any explicit background for Rey there is no problem (yet) that she is on the same planet (or in the same area) as LST.
Maz having Luke's saber is convenient, but could've just been replaced with any other light saber without changing much about the story.

 

[TheXbox]

C3P0 and R2D2 end up in the hands of Luke by a sheer miracle. Since they have not given any explicit background for Rey there is no problem (yet) that she is on the same planet (or in the same area) as LST.

You're right, that bit could be addressed in the next film. But I neglected to mention a couple of other far more egregious flaws in the script. Namely, R2 deciding to wake up and end the movie cause "oh shit we forgot about the McGuffin that was supposed to drive this entire movie", and also everything that has to do with Starkiller Base.

 

[Zabka]

Star Wars is the one franchise where "convenience" and coincidence can be easily explained.

 

[prag16]

Ya I really enjoyed VII but I will be very disappointed if the rest of the trilogy plays it as safe as VII did if that makes sense.

I agree with this sentiment. There are valid reasons why they played it safe this time, and you can argue that they kind of needed to, in reviving the franchise.

For VIII, they no longer need to play it safe. There is now much less reason to. With Rian Johnson at the helm, I doubt we'll see anything lazy and by the numbers, for better or for worse. The wait is gonna feel like an eternity.

 

[Dead]

Star Wars is the one franchise where "convenience" and coincidence can be easily explained.

certainly more easily than Captain Kirk getting stranded on a planet and just happens to land a few feet away from old man spock,

Millenium Falcon on Jakku will never not be a groan worthy story beat though. Just uber lazy. Poe, Finn and BB8 ending up on the same planet as Rey is enough "force driven" convenient circumstance.

And even then using ANH as a comparison as someone did earlier that Theepio and R2 land on Tattooine, that was a lot more of a natural story beat as R2D2 was looking for Obi-Wan, who would naturally be on the same planet as Luke as he is watching him. So saying TFA just shares the same sense of coincidental story telling as ANH is a bit wrong.