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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

El Topo

Member
You're right, that bit could be addressed in the next film. But I neglected to mention a couple of other far more egregious flaws in the script. Namely, R2 deciding to wake up and end the movie cause "oh shit we forgot about the McGuffin that was supposed to drive this entire movie", and also everything that has to do with Starkiller Base.

R2 waking up is not problematic for me, because it could've been explained rather easily, or remedied with a single additional (short) scene. All the movies have had a lot of such (convenient) moments.
Don't get me wrong, these things have to be handled carefully nonetheless, these days maybe even more than back in the day. The Falcon on Jakku is the bigger (and more annoying) convenience for me.
 

prag16

Banned
certainly more easily than Captain Kirk getting stranded on a planet and just happens to land a few feet away from old man spock,

Millenium Falcon on Jakku will never not be a groan worthy story beat though. Just uber lazy. Poe, Finn and BB8 ending up on the same planet as Rey is enough "force driven" convenient circumstance.
To be fair, the jury is still out on some of these "conveniences" like the Millennium Falcon on Jakku, and Lor San Tekka in such close proximity to Rey, and even the lightsaber in Maz's hands (and at least it can't possibly be as stupid as the original "lightsaber and dismembered hand floating through space" rumor).

We don't yet know any of the backstory.
 

Dead

well not really...yet
Yeah I'm not crying foul on the lightsaber thing just yet, though I have a sneaking suspicion they will never expand on it in the movies, but we'll see.
 

TheXbox

Member
R2 waking up is not problematic for me, because it could've been explained rather easily, or remedied with a single additional (short) scene. All the movies have had a lot of such (convenient) moments.
...But it wasn't. That's what I'm saying. They hand wave so much shit in this movie, likely because a LOT of changes were made in the eleventh hour. That's self-evident all across the board. JJ explained this particular contrivance in some interview, and his explanation was predictably lame. According to him, BB-8 is what triggers R2 to wake up, but BB-8 actually meets R2 about forty minutes before the end of the movie. So I guess R2 spends a LONG time thinking about it?

None of it really matters, anyway. The cast is great and the chemistry is there and it looks and sounds amazing, so I'm willing to put up with the duct tape and the gum. I love this movie. But none of it makes any sense.
 

Monocle

Member
The prequels were both bad films, and very bad Star Wars films, because they fundamentally lost sight of what made the OT work. It was partly the setting and universe - but it was also the characters. The fact that we could relate to them, there's a recognizable journey through that great universe, they form friendships and makeshift families. There's humor born from these characters, and moments of compassion and conflict we care about because of it. The prequels were all spectacle, and all hollow shell, totally devoid of humanity.

The Force Awakens is a pastiche of the OT in many ways, but that's really window dressing for what's important - the characters and their journey. Starkiller Base is a perfect example. Clearly it's there so we get a parallel ending to A New Hope, right down to a brief trench run. But that's not the focus of the film, nor even the real climax. It's really there as a backdrop for Han, Finn and Rey to confront Ren (in that order). The film has set up their relationships, how they relate to one another, and made us care about (or at least, in Ren's case, understand) them. And those relationships then play out in action: a desperate father's compassionate plea to his son; a son falling completely to the dark side; a man on the run, finally facing the very thing he's been running from, and doing so against hopeless odds to defend someone who once told him he didn't need help - until she desperately did; a woman finally taking control of her future and embracing her potential.

That's what The Force Awakens is really about, and that's also the kind of thing the OT was really about. These conflicts are what is playing out in the action. What the prequels got was the action - and none of the character work.

Here I'll defer to Plinkett, because video is better than words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORWPCCzSgu0#t=355s

(about the six minute mark if the link doesn't take you there)

This is why the duels at the end of The Force Awakens are so great. There's a line in that video where Plinkett says, "Three guys we know nothing about fighting each other in a scene we have no interest in. Their flawless choreography lacks all humanity and emotion."

That's exactly the opposite of the three-way fight at the end of TFA, where characters we care about, understand and relate to are in conflict for reasons that make sense. Their choreography is rough and brutal, their relationships and emotions playing out through the action of the fight. This is what every duel in the OT films did. TFA is a return to form.

To be clear, it's fine to like the prequels. Lots of people do. But they are really shitty Star Wars films for the same reasons The Force Awakens is a great one.
You really do get it. 100% agreed.
 
You're right, that bit could be addressed in the next film. But I neglected to mention a couple of other far more egregious flaws in the script. Namely, R2 deciding to wake up and end the movie cause "oh shit we forgot about the McGuffin that was supposed to drive this entire movie", and also everything that has to do with Starkiller Base.

Mcguffins get a really bad rap. It's like with tropes, once the population discovers a new concept they run it into the ground and spew misapplied criticism everywhere. Mcguffins serve key roles in some of the greatest stories ever told. There is nothing inherently wrong with them.

It's the English major in me, but it really bothers me when people's critique of a story's structure boils down to "This story has a structure".

Stories are magic tricks. They are a series of hacks and deceptions created to suspend disbelief and create emotions out of thin air. They are always full of compromises and flaws. It's pretty trivial to pick any of them apart.

A confident writer embraces those compromises and uses structures and archetypes to their advantage. This shit goes all the way back to Gilgamesh. R2 waking up at the narratively correct moment isn't very different from Fortinbras showing up at the exactly correct time at the end of Hamlet.
 

Zabka

Member
certainly more easily than Captain Kirk getting stranded on a planet and just happens to land a few feet away from old man spock,

Millenium Falcon on Jakku will never not be a groan worthy story beat though. Just uber lazy. Poe, Finn and BB8 ending up on the same planet as Rey is enough "force driven" convenient circumstance.

And even then using ANH as a comparison as someone did earlier that Theepio and R2 land on Tattooine, that was a lot more of a natural story beat as R2D2 was looking for Obi-Wan, who would naturally be on the same planet as Luke as he is watching him. So saying TFA just shares the same sense of coincidental story telling as ANH is a bit wrong.

Subsequent films have made ANH's opening ridiculous. It's a father tracking down his daughter who has his two old droids which get dumped on a planet where they run into his son, and not a single droid or person has any idea who the other people are.

People should also keep in mind that R2D2 is an asshole. He probably waited until the last possible moment to wake up because he's a glory hog.
 

TheXbox

Member
Mcguffins get a really bad rap. It's like with tropes, once the population discovers a new concept they run it into the ground and spew misapplied criticism everywhere. Mcguffins serve key roles in some of the greatest stories ever told. There is nothing inherently wrong with them.

It's the English major in me, but it really bothers me when people's critique of a story's structure boils down to "This story has a structure".

Stories are magic tricks. They are a series of hacks and deceptions created to suspend disbelief and create emotions out of thin air. They are always full of compromises and flaws. It's pretty trivial to pick any of them apart.

A confident writer embraces those compromises and uses structures and archetypes to their advantage. This shit goes all the way back to Gilgamesh. R2 waking up at the narratively correct moment isn't very different from Fortinbras showing up at the exactly correct time at the end of Hamlet.
Your rebuttal is misplaced. I take no issue with Luke Skywalker as the plot device that propels this movie into existence. Actually, I think it's kind of brilliant, and it's something a lot of fans were predicting (and a lot of rumors were pointing to) very early on. The setup is great and the payoff is marvelous. The execution is not.

And while it's been many years since I read Hamlet, I believe Fortinbras' arrival was foreshadowed quite a bit. The invasion was sort of a lingering threat throughout most of the play. His arrival was convenient, but not unaccounted for.

My point is that it seems like everyone is okay with super duper coincidences and contrivances in the originals but here its apparently heresy.
We should make a distinction between coincidence and convenience. There are lot of disparate players who intersect over one location at the outset of ANH, but there is precedent for nearly all of it. Leia is after Ben, and Ben is there because Luke is there, as Ben is watching Luke. Bail knew where Ben was because Ben is the dude caretaking his adopted daughter's brother. No one told anyone who's related to who because no one wants Luke and Leia to get got by Vader. Convenient? Yes. Coincidence? Not really.

Now this does pretty much fall apart when you factor in all the other baggage Ep I-III introduced, but that's not on the originals. And plenty of people have griped about Leia being Luke's brother. I'm not one of them, but they exist.
 
Subsequent films have made ANH's opening ridiculous. It's a father tracking down his daughter who has his two old droids which get dumped on a planet where they run into his son, and not a single droid or person has any idea who the other people are.

I don't think he knows this stuff at that point. Star Wars is literally founded on coincidence due to this higher power in the galaxy playing a proverbial game of chess; things happen both conveniently and inconveniently. Like R2 waking up at the end of TFA, after Han has been killed, after the Force awakens in Rey, Starkiller blows up, etc. It's the next leg of the plot opening up. I don't think its meant to really be analyzed so much but rather taken for granted; along the same lines of *deep breath* R2 carrying the Death Star plans thanks to Leia who is the daughter of the asshole we just saw who was after the plans on the droid about to be jettisoned to the very planet where Leia's brother and asshole's son and Obi-Wan Kenobi resides who will become a Jedi and destroy the emperor and bring asshole back to the good side *trips over something*

My point is that it seems like everyone is okay with super duper coincidences and contrivances in the originals but here its apparently heresy.
 
Your rebuttal is misplaced. I take no issue with Luke Skywalker as the plot device that propels this movie into existence. Actually, I think it's kind of brilliant, and it's something a lot of fans were predicting (and a lot of rumors were pointing to) very early on. The setup is great and the payoff is marvelous. The execution is not.

And while it's been many years since I read Hamlet, I believe Fortinbras' arrival was foreshadowed quite a bit. The invasion was sort of a lingering threat throughout most of the play. His arrival was convenient, but not unaccounted for.

R2's awakening is also foreshadowed. That's why the example came to mind. They both show up at the perfect time at the very end end to serve both a necessary plot point and to drive home a thematic element.
 

TheXbox

Member
R2's awakening is also foreshadowed. That's why the example came to mind. They both show up at the perfect time at the very end end to serve both a necessary plot point and to drive home a thematic element.
Foreshadowed how? We have one throwaway line from Threepio:

Threepio said:
It is very doubtful that R2 would have the rest of the map in his backup data. (BB-8 beeps) I am afraid not. R2-D2 has been in low power mode ever since Master Luke went away. Sadly, he may never be his old self again.
Nope! Gotcha! He had them all along!

This is shitty. The whole thing is contingent on R2 retrieving the map from the Death Star and then forgetting about it for thirty years, having only been reminded to get off his tin can ass by BB-8. Which you wouldn't even know unless you googled interviews from the film's director. That's not really foreshadowing.

Maybe you think it's trivial. Maybe it is. Star Wars is a fairy tale, I get it, I love that about Star Wars, and I'm not expecting much in the way of storytelling - certainly not Shakespeare - but for me this takes me out of the movie, every single time. And I've put up with a lot of bullshit in these movies.
 

Nerrel

Member
To be fair, the jury is still out on some of these "conveniences" like the Millennium Falcon on Jakku, and Lor San Tekka in such close proximity to Rey, and even the lightsaber in Maz's hands (and at least it can't possibly be as stupid as the original "lightsaber and dismembered hand floating through space" rumor).

We don't yet know any of the backstory.

I hadn't thought about it before, but if Rey turns out to be Luke's daughter maybe Lor was deliberately there to watch over her from afar, similar to how Obi Wan looked after Luke. He obviously had knowledge about Luke's location that no one else did, it's not far fetched that they had made an arrangement together when Luke went off to find the jedi temple.
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
certainly more easily than Captain Kirk getting stranded on a planet and just happens to land a few feet away from old man spock,

Millenium Falcon on Jakku will never not be a groan worthy story beat though. Just uber lazy. Poe, Finn and BB8 ending up on the same planet as Rey is enough "force driven" convenient circumstance.

And even then using ANH as a comparison as someone did earlier that Theepio and R2 land on Tattooine, that was a lot more of a natural story beat as R2D2 was looking for Obi-Wan, who would naturally be on the same planet as Luke as he is watching him. So saying TFA just shares the same sense of coincidental story telling as ANH is a bit wrong.

But I don't think Rey, Finn, Poe, and BB8 ending up on the same planet as Rey is any different than R2 and 3PO finding Luke. The movie actually sets it up well:

1) Lor is on Jakku for reasons unknown. Speculation: He is watching over Rey in the same way Obi-Wan watched over Luke, and like Obi-Wan, he doesn't interfere with Rey's life, letting her live her life with Unkar like Luke did with Owen and Beru.

2) Leia sends Poe to Jakku to find Lor and get that vital piece of information.

3) The First Order follows Poe, or otherwise learns that Lor is on Jakku as well, and go there to find him.

4) Finn is a member of Phasma's squad, and she's assigned to the Jakku village op. He's naturally going to accompany her to the planet.

5) Kylo Ren has a history with Lor that is implied in their dialogue, since Lor knows who Kylo is, and chastises him for denying "the truth that is your family."

The characters ending up on the planet they need to to kickstart Rey's adventure is fine, and in line with ANH as far as happy coincidences go. The only issue I have is in The Falcon also being on Jakku, but Rey's past may have something to do with that. Han seems to know more about Rey than he lets on by the time they get to Maz' Temple. But hey, if the movie says that the Falcon was stolen by Unkar, it's been in disuse for a few years, and Han and Chewie have been sweeping sectors for a sign of it, and it happens to pick up the newly reactivated Falcon, I'll roll with it, because by that point I've been having so much fun with Rey, Finn, and Poe that I don't care about the little things like this.

But to say that the convenience in TFA is worse than it is in the OT or prequels I feel is disingenuous.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Foreshadowed how? We have one throwaway line from Threepio:

Nope! Gotcha! He had them all along!

This is shitty. The whole thing is contingent on R2 retrieving the map from the Death Star and then forgetting about it for thirty years, having only been reminded to get off his tin can ass by BB-8. Which you wouldn't even know unless you googled interviews from the film's director. That's not really foreshadowing.

Maybe you think it's trivial. Maybe it is. Star Wars is a fairy tale, I get it, I love that about Star Wars, and I'm not expecting much in the way of storytelling - certainly not Shakespeare - but for me this takes me out of the movie, every single time. And I've put up with a lot of bullshit in these movies.
While I didn't like how R2 waking up at the end was handled, the first time I saw the film and heard those lines, I knew he had the rest of the map. That was the entire point of them.
 

-griffy-

Banned
Vanity Fair put up a fantastic article/interview with Kathleen Kennedy (also, pretty major spoiler warning for Breaking Bad when the article gets to Rian Johnson and his filmography). Here's a couple of choice sections:
In terms of personal style, the change from Lucas to Kennedy could not have been more stark. Lucas was a beloved and oddly vulnerable figure in the minds of his employees. Until he chose Kennedy to replace him, no one who worked for Lucas thought there was ever going to be another Star Wars movie; he was bruised and bitter after Episodes I, II, and III, the so-called prequels, had been widely panned. Lucrative as the franchise and its merchandising continued to be, without a big Star Wars movie in the works, Lucasfilm lacked its primary reason for being. Nobody ever questioned Lucas—in fact, nobody made a move without him. “I think this company, for a long time, was driven by waiting to see what George wanted to do,” Kennedy told me. “I don’t run this company that way. People aren’t sitting around waiting to see what Kathy wants to do.” As she views it, her staff looks to her for guidance, but they feel more empowered to act without her explicit approval.
[Tony] Kushner told me he was “a little shocked” when Kennedy said she was going to take the Lucasfilm job. Kennedy is known for creating and nurturing complex characters in her movies—people such as the Israeli assassin in Munich, played by Eric Bana, and Daniel Day-Lewis’s flawed and all-too-human Lincoln. What was she doing running a science-fiction empire? This past summer, his fears were allayed when he and Kennedy had a conversation about the development of some of the scripts for current and future Star Wars movies. “She talked about the way in which the conventional approach to these things is that a script starts from an outline, and that’s what everybody focuses on before there’s a word of dialogue.” In Kushner’s recollection, Kennedy was urging the writers to turn their focus to the characters. She kept saying to them, “Who are these people? I don’t know who these people are.” Kushner felt that “she was expressing an impatience about character being secondary to story line, which violated something very essential for her.”
 

watershed

Banned
Although TFA has good characters, I didn't see much in the film that was stronger than a standard, well made blockbuster. Maybe her dedication to character will be evident in future films, but I don't think TFA is particularly representative of that.
 

-griffy-

Banned
Although TFA has good characters, I didn't see much in the film that was stronger than a standard, well made blockbuster. Maybe her dedication to character will be evident in future films, but I don't think TFA is particularly representative of that.

I don't know, one of the most universally liked aspects of TFA seems to be the characters, and specifically the new characters. Certainly a world of difference compared to the prequels. There's an argument to be made, and not an entirely crazy one, that it's got the strongest characterization of any Star Wars film, period.
 

Fuzzy

I would bang a hot farmer!
I thought the C-3PO comic about his red arm was coming out soon but I see it's March 30. :(
Was it delayed or was it always coming out at the end of March? I can't remember.
 
We should make a distinction between coincidence and convenience. There are lot of disparate players who intersect over one location at the outset of ANH, but there is precedent for nearly all of it. Leia is after Ben, and Ben is there because Luke is there, as Ben is watching Luke. Bail knew where Ben was because Ben is the dude caretaking his adopted daughter's brother. No one told anyone who's related to who because no one wants Luke and Leia to get got by Vader. Convenient? Yes. Coincidence? Not really.

I never said those things were, but the very nature of the Force makes it clear that it's a sort of higher power that sets things into motion which leads to history/events repeating itself; whether you subscribe to that is up to you but that's how I've always seen it and why it doesn't bother me. People joke about Lucas saying it's like poety but that's absolutely the truth full-stop and even with new filmmakers they're STILL doing it because that's what Star Wars is.
 
I recently saw Jesse Plemons take a turn in Bridge of Spies, and was reminded that at one point he was in the running for a part in TFA.

Do we presume he was lining up to play Kylo Ren? And if so, how would that performance have compared to Drivers?
 

chaislip3

Member
I recently saw Jesse Plemons take a turn in Bridge of Spies, and was reminded that at one point he was in the running for a part in TFA.

Do we presume he was lining up to play Kylo Ren? And if so, how would that performance have compared to Drivers?

It was for Finn, iirc.
 

Dead

well not really...yet
I recently saw Jesse Plemons take a turn in Bridge of Spies, and was reminded that at one point he was in the running for a part in TFA.

Do we presume he was lining up to play Kylo Ren? And if so, how would that performance have compared to Drivers?
Finn
 
Haha, really. He certainly has that sort of doofus likeability that Finn has. I suppose I thought it would be Kylo because Jesse also kind of looks a bit evil. I like him & I think he could have given a pretty good Finn. But I'm happier with Boyega.
 
Ugh if I have to see another person on YouTube say that if I don't like all 6 Star Wars films,than I'm not a true fan,I think I'm going to blow a gasket.
 

Angel_DvA

Member
Anyone ?

gsJZasw.jpg
 

Surfinn

Member
Question.. I've heard in the novelization that Rey mentions seeing a boy down the hallway in her force vision. Has that been discussed here? First I've heard of it.

Although TFA has good characters, I didn't see much in the film that was stronger than a standard, well made blockbuster. Maybe her dedication to character will be evident in future films, but I don't think TFA is particularly representative of that.

How many times have you seen it? It only gets better and it's subtleties become more apparent with repeat viewings. I didn't enjoy it that much my first time through.
 
It's hard for me to get on board with the "didn't bring anything new" to the table camp.

The Prequels contrasted the OT as hard as they did because Lucas wanted to show how much different the galaxy was pre-Empire and Post Republic.

The prequels were like looking at old Norman Rockwell paintings, or watching an episode of Leave it to Beaver, while the OT was like looking at Andy Warhol. Very different tones and style.

This new trilogy is following the OT. It's going to be stylistically similar, even though time has passed, I feel like we wouldn't be seeing the same level of variety as seen in the PT. At least not yet.

The Phantom Menace had Coruscant, Tatooine, and Naboo as the primary locations. Nothing about those three planets screamed originality. One was a desert, the other was a city planet, and the other looked like some beautiful Italian villa. Episodes 2 and 3 were where we got to see a bit more alien looking worlds, and mainly episode 3. Episode two had Kamino, a water planet, Coruscant again, and Geonosis, which kind of looked liked Mars or the Arizona desert, with a bit of an ant hill vibe thrown in.

I wouldn't call them bastions of creativity and originality as far as settings go. I personally think they were neat settings for the PT, OT, and TFA. The TFA served to remind us why we love Star Wars. It wasn't the settings, as cool as they were. It was the characters. The problems people have with the PT isn't the setting. It's the mediocre and awful characters. With better, fully realized and empathetic characters, all the political stuff and subterfuge and intrigue would have gone over much better.

With TFA, we got a cast of great new characters mixed in with the old favorites. I think, because we were so invested in Rey, Finn, and Kylo, JJ and Kasdan could have gotten away with a little political indulgence fare and there. But they played it safe, and I can't blame them. They tapped into the familiar with this movie, but I never felt they over did it. Maybe it's because I've seen the movie multiple times now, that I think the differences between TFA and the OT far outweigh the thematically similarities.

Even the plot device of the Star Killer base is vastly different than the plot device of the Death Star (the destruction of Starkiller wasn't the end goal of the film. The Starkiller's purpose was to wipe out the republic, setting up a scenario in which the Resistance, going forward, is far more vulnerable to The First Order than the Rebel Alliance ever was to the Empire). The resistance has no fleet, just a squad of X-Wings. They have no more financial support demo the Republic. They are on their own.

Rey isn't Luke. Finn isn't Han. Poe isn't Leia, and Kylo isn't Vader. Each of the new characters has a trajectory that is much different than our classic crew of the OT. The setting is also a lot more bleak. It's all so compelling to me. Not to mention that this movie showed us a few aspects of the Force we hadn't seen before, or a new way of looking at them. Kylo's abilities, Rey's abilities, all displayed interesting possibilities for Force users. There's a lot of visual storytelling in nearly every frame of the movie that allows our minds to wander and wonder about what this 30 years later universe is about.

That alone is something the prequels never accomplished, despite all the weird CG aliens and giant flower petal planets. The conclusion of the prequels was a forgone conclusion. All of the shiny planets and species we knew we'd never see again, because they hadn't appeared in the OT films. Watto? Sebulba? Kaminoans? They don't exist as far as the OT goes.

This new trilogy is completely open. The filmmakers can do whatever they want. We don't know how Rey, Finn, Kylo, and Poe's journey will turn out. For me, that's what sets TFA above the prequels. It's the return of the unknown. That feeling of being lost in a world and piecing together information from visual or verbal scraps peppered throughout the movie. My anticipation for episode 8 info leaks is infinitely greater than it was for episode 7, and I barely followed any of that stuff back then.

I was thinking about this when watching the movie. There are certainly parallels, but I thought it wasn't nearly as in-your-face as the Wrath of Khan references in ST Into Darkness which was kinda obnoxious.
 

Cth

Member
Question.. I've heard in the novelization that Rey mentions seeing a boy down the hallway in her force vision. Has that been discussed here? First I've heard of it.

Here's that part:

The box was not locked. She opened it.

A heavy, slow, mechanical breathing filled the room. Turning, she found herself looking down an impressive hallway, its architecture reminiscent of the Old Empire. Peering harder, farther, she saw in the distance a section of the famed Cloud City. Two figures were locked in combat, distant, distant.

Someone, somewhere, somewhen, spoke her name.

“Hello?” Wreathed in the irrationality of the moment, she called hopefully, but received no answer.A boy appeared at the end of the hallway. She started toward him, and the world turned inside out, causing her to trip and fall.

Onto the wall, which had become the ground. Not the adamantine ceramic she had just seen, but dry grass. Nearby, a lightsaber slammed into the ground. A missed thrust, a statement of power—she didn’t know, couldn’t tell. A hand appeared to pull it upward.

Day became night, sky ominous and filled with rain, cold and chilling to the bone. She was standing, she was sitting, she was looking up—to see someone, a warrior, take the full force of the lightsaber. He screamed and fell. Battlefield then, all around her. Putting a hand to her mouth, she rose and turned. As she turned, she found herself confronted by seven tall, cloaked figures, dark and foreboding, all armed. Soaked and shivering, she stumbled backward, turning as she half fell. Firelight illuminated her, firelight from a distant, burning temple.

The seven vanished. A sound made her turn, and she blinked in surprise at the sight of a small blue and-silver R2 unit. A new figure appeared. Falling to his knees, he reached out to the droid with an artifice of an arm—metal and plastics and other materials with which she was not familiar. She blinked and both were gone.

Around her now: barren, snowy woods, the sounds of unknown forest creatures, and a conviction that she must be losing her mind. Once more she climbed to her feet, her chilled breath preceding her.

From in front of her, not far away, came the sounds of battle: the cries of the wounded and the clashing of weapons. Then behind her, another voice.

That voice.

“Stay here. I’ll come back for you.”

She whirled, glazed eyes desperately scanning the dark gaps between the slender trees, trying to penetrate the darkness.

“Where are you?” She started running toward the voice.

“I’ll come back, sweetheart. I promise.”

“I’m here! Right here! Where are you?”

No response. She started forward again, running, only to be brought to a sudden halt by a figure appearing without warning from behind a tree.

She screamed, and screamed again, and fell backward, backward, sitting down hard in—

She was in the underground corridor, sitting on the cold old stone, her chest pounding as if she had just run from her home all the way to Niima Outpost.

“There you are.”

The voice made her jump. But it was only Maz Kanata, standing alone in the passageway between her and the far stairway.

Pretty clearly the Luke/Vader fight in ESB.. I'm pretty sure the film backs this up too.
 

Surfinn

Member
Here's that part:



Pretty clearly the Luke/Vader fight in ESB.. I'm pretty sure the film backs this up too.

Judging from exactly what's written in the novel, the boy seems to be "appearing" in that scene, which is introduced after and independently from the "two figures locked in combat" mentioned right before.

Seems different to me.. interesting.

Notice, also, that the author chose the word "boy" and not "man". I know Luke is referred to as a boy in ANH, but is he ever called that in ESB or ROTJ?
 
edit: I'm really sad that the quality of the novelization doesn't appear to hold a candle to the ROTS one. I think I've been forever spoiled.

Notice, also, that the author chose the word "boy" and not "man". I know Luke is referred to as a boy in ANH, but is he ever called that in ESB or ROTJ?

"He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him."

Judging by the way the scene is staged in the novelization, though, I could see it being an oblique reference perhaps to a young Ben showing up at Cloud City to try to recover the lightsaber. He does appear to actually recognize Anakin's old saber in the end, so I expect he'd been fixated on it at some point before. Possibly he was even the one to originally find it.

Could be either Luke or Anakin. Given the surrounding context, I'm guessing Luke, in Cloud City.

Luke is apparently present in the scene already, fighting Vader. Although it's a vision, so I guess there aren't really any rules.
 
Saw it for the 4th time last night.

It's still good. I freaking love the light saber fight at the end. Just the right mix of emotional weight, visceral physicality, cinematography, and scenery. Great stuff.
 
Saw it for the 4th time last night.

It's still good. I freaking love the light saber fight at the end. Just the right mix of emotional weight, visceral physicality, cinematography, and scenery. Great stuff.

Kylo was godly in that fight with his mannerisms, and facials. Also the pounding of his wound was the single best part of it all. Genus stuff. Who ever told him to do that, or if he did it on his own it was genus. ,
 

Surfinn

Member
edit: I'm really sad that the quality of the novelization doesn't appear to hold a candle to the ROTS one. I think I've been forever spoiled.



"He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him."

Judging by the way the scene is staged in the novelization, though, I could see it being an oblique reference perhaps to a young Ben showing up at Cloud City to try to recover the lightsaber. He does appear to actually recognize Anakin's old saber in the end, so I expect he'd been fixated on it at some point before. Possibly he was even the one to originally find it.



Luke is apparently present in the scene already, fighting Vader. Although it's a vision, so I guess there aren't really any rules.

Ah right, forgot about that line, thank you.

Exactly, Luke and Vader have already been INTRODUCED in the scene, but right after, a boy appears. They're independent from each other, which has to mean the author was referencing someone other than Luke. I've heard no one in the story board group clarify this additional information, and it does not contradict anything we see in the film (we don't know if she saw this particular vision in the film, even if it was not shown on screen). But again we get into the sticky "it wasn't shown in the film" debate.

"That saber.. it belongs to me"

I forgot about that line. I wonder if there's a connection between it and the boy in the vision.
 

-griffy-

Banned
A boy appearing at the end of that hallway is curious, since there wasn't a boy at all in that sequence in Empire. All the other visions, in both the film and novel, seem to be actual representations of the events that happened, with Rey's presence being the outlier. That there's no further elaboration other than "a boy" tells me it's just deliberately vague to make the reader fill it in themselves rather than any kind of a hint about anything. A vision of Anakin as a boy seems plausible enough.
 

Surfinn

Member
A boy appearing at the end of that hallway is curious, since there wasn't a boy at all in that sequence in Empire. All the other visions, in both the film and novel, seem to be actual representations of the events that happened, with Rey's presence being the outlier. That there's no further elaboration other than "a boy" tells me it's just deliberately vague to make the reader fill it in themselves rather than any kind of a hint about anything. A vision of Anakin as a boy seems plausible enough.

But what would Anakin (as a boy) be doing in a Cloud City hallway (unless I'm not thinking of it in the right way)?
 
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