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[aspiegamer]

I guess we can deal with money in politics for a few more decades.

Yup, that $100M++ spent by Jeb!'s SuperPAC sure made a statement! Well, actually, they did, but not in a good way. His votes in IA and NH cost something like an effective $3000 and $1500 each, respectively. Trump? Self-funding? Under $100.

Tell that to my neighbors here in Flint and how their water's doing.

What the freaking crap does this have to do with any of this?

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

There needs to be a wakeup call within the Democratic party that throwing out a coronation for Hillary because it's "her turn" is bullshit. Younger voters continue being disenfranchised by the party by continuously pushing candidates that failed them when it mattered.

If it takes their person to lose when she was all but guaranteed to win then so be it.

You honestly think that'll be the lesson they'll take from a Hillary loss?

They'll see the massive numbers of new voters who turned out for Trump and conclude they aren't far enough to the right. Hillary came out against guns. The next candidate won't dare. She pushes for women's issues. That's gotta stop.

A Republican president will fuck us all. And all in totally different ways.

Where was my fucking help when I was unemployed for three years, having to get food stamps? Where was my help when I saw my five local banks consolidate into one and I was unable to buy a house? Where was my help when my former employer opted to replace me with someone from India?

So you suffered, therefore you're indifferent to the suffering your choice may bring upon others?

How very progressive of you.

 

[Averon]

Well you can ask Jeb Bush how much money in politics actually mattered.

Just because money in politics isn't as much of an issue on the presidential level doesn't mean it is not a blight on the local level.

 

[Manmademan]

Tell that to my neighbors here in Flint and how their water's doing.

bernie has absolutely no chance of stopping the kind of local corruption that caused flint.
anyone that thinks otherwise needs a reality check.

you might get citizens united overturned, but lobbyists and pay to play isn't going anywhere.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

This magical assumption that Hillary's going to nominate liberal anti-corporate justices is headshaking. We might get some justices that was liberal on social issues, but there's no fucking way she's going to get Citizens United overturned when it helps her so much.

She literally said she was going to appoint judges who were against CU.

You calling her a liar?

 

[cpp_is_king]

There needs to be a wakeup call within the Democratic party that throwing out a coronation for Hillary because it's "her turn" is bullshit. Younger voters continue being disenfranchised by the party by continuously pushing candidates that failed them when it mattered.

Life's not fair dude. When the country speaks it speaks. Democracy doesn't mean what you want. It means what the majority wants

 

[B-Dubs]

Hasn't Hillary said multiple times that one of her biggest goals as president is to overturn Citizens United?

Yes. Hell, she said it's going be her litmus test for picking justices.

She literally said she was going to appoint judges who were against CU.

You calling her a liar?

Hell Citizens United came into existence partly because the GOP wanted to spend more money to attack her.

 

[Prodigal Son]

Lol at Gaf acting like Super Pacs aren't that bad.

Legal bribing is cool, y'all.

Money in politics and lobbying is not just about winning elections. Its about influencing public opinion, its about influencing legislation and bills, its about stopping legislation itself, degrading legislation and bills.

Hundreds of millions are poured into that every single year to almost every politician.

Its highly ridiculous to say "well the banks put 20 mil on Scott Walker and he failed so money in politics dont exist!"

Its a horrible line of attack to dismiss the real threat. Its as bad as saying "well the first black President was elected, so racism doesn't exist"

Why bother, dude?

This shit is beyond parody. We're the laughing stock of future generations.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

She literally said she was going to appoint judges who were against CU.

You calling her a liar?

Many Sanders supporters do. Because he's a uniter, not a divider.

 

[Manmademan]

This magical assumption that Hillary's going to nominate liberal anti-corporate justices is headshaking. We might get some justices that are liberal on social issues, but there's no fucking way she's going to get Citizens United overturned when it helps her so much.

democrats oppose citizens united pretty much across the board. it helps republicans far more than it helps them.

obviously they'll take advantage of it while it exists so as not to get blown out of the water by republican superPACs, but nearly all of them would rather see it gone.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

Bernie's revolution is going to take another 20 years to arrive. Bernie's supporters are by and large ignorant of state and local politics though so they don't understand that.

Might not even take 20 years.

Driverless cars displacing millions out of jobs in the next 12-15 years is a real possibility.

Technology is going to force economic changes in our lifetime whether we like it or not.

 

[Averon]

She literally said she was going to appoint judges who were against CU.

You calling her a liar?

Hilary's a politician. Blindly believing what a politician says is not wise.

 

[Chindogg]

Most Sanders supporters do. Because he's a uniter, not a divider.

Please continue with that narrative. It worked out so well in 08 with the Obama Boys.

Hilary's a politician. Blindly believing what a politician says is not wise.

So's Bernie, but at least for the most part he's been against money in politics for the majority of his career.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Hilary's a politician. Blindly believing what a politician says is not wise.

And Sanders is a what? Magical truth fairy?

Please continue with that narrative. It worked out so well in 08 with the Obama Boys.

Your vitriol all evening is proof enough I'm right about how his candidacy has divided the Democratic Party. But believe what you must.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Hilary's a politician. Blindly believing what a politician says is not wise.

Which is pretty funny.

Since only one Democrat candidate is writing checks he knows he can't cash.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Yup, that $100M++ spent by Jeb!'s SuperPAC sure made a statement! Well, actually, they did, but not in a good way. His votes in IA and NH cost something like an effective $3000 and $1500 each, respectively. Trump? Self-funding? Under $100.What the freaking crap does this have to do with any of this?

Money in politics and lobbying is not just about winning elections. Its about influencing public opinion, its about influencing legislation and bills, its about stopping legislation itself, degrading legislation and bills, its about influencing politicians at large, whether they are in public office or not.

Hundreds of millions are poured into that every single year to almost every politician.

Its highly ridiculous to say "well the banks put 20 mil on Scott Walker and he failed so money in politics dont exist!"

Its a horrible line of attack to dismiss the real threat. Its as bad as saying "well the first black President was elected, so racism doesn't exist"

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Tell that to my neighbors here in Flint and how their water's doing.



This magical assumption that Hillary's going to nominate liberal anti-corporate justices is headshaking. We might get some justices that was liberal on social issues, but there's no fucking way she's going to get Citizens United overturned when it helps her so much.

Just because money in politics isn't as much of an issue on the presidential level doesn't mean it is not a blight on the local level.

Definitely sucks what goes on at the local levels as far as turnout. And Flint is disgusting what was allowed to happen by conservative leaders.

But I wonder if that is a pure money problem or an issue of voters not seeing the glamour in local elections and therefore not showing up as much as they should. Not to say that should even matter, as everyone as a matter of practice should want to improve everyone's lives, but.....

I just think things like Citizens United, while shitty, are much less important than crap like basic infrastructure improvements, institutional racism issues, etc.

 

[Manmademan]

Which is pretty funny.

Since only one Democrat candidate is writing checks he knows he can't cash.

this.

I don't mind some aspirational goals, but when you're guaranteeing 5% growth, overturning citizens united in your first term, promising free college tuition, reducing the prison population by about a million inmates singlehandedly and implementing single payer over the heads of a republican congress you kind of have to wonder if he's being a little irresponsible.

 

[Wall]

Yup, that $100M++ spent by Jeb!'s SuperPAC sure made a statement! Well, actually, they did, but not in a good way. His votes in IA and NH cost something like an effective $3000 and $1500 each, respectively. Trump? Self-funding? Under $100.What the freaking crap does this have to do with any of this?

There are more political races than those for the Presidency. Money from organizations like ALEC and wealthy individuals like the Koch brothers back candidates in races that don't have the visibility of the Presidency or even a Senate race. That money is what fueled the Tea Party and got extremists like Scott Walker and Rick Snyder elected, along with strong Republican majorities in the state houses of Michigan and Wisconsin.

More fundamentally, the need to raise enormous sums of money to fund campaigns shapes the political discourse because politicians from both parties need to consider the desires of their donorbases when formulating the platforms they try to run on. That need inevitably tilts the political conversation towards individuals and entities who already have wealth and power.

 

[Delt31]

GAF I know you don't like trump but realize these people are all the same. Hillary is being paid like a stuffed pig so is rubio. Trump and Bernie are gonna give you the best chance for what you want.

Here's the real deal. We live in America and a socialist will not win. Trump on the other hand can bring in both party voters. Why? Bc be will get the blue collar worker and for good reason. Vote Trump to make a difference.

 

[exmachina64]

There needs to be a wakeup call within the Democratic party that throwing out a coronation for Hillary because it's "her turn" is bullshit. Younger voters continue being disenfranchised by the party by continuously pushing candidates that failed them when it mattered.

If it takes their person to lose when she was all but guaranteed to win then so be it.

Young and newly-enfranchised voters need to learn in every cycle that the American political system was designed to force compromise and take literal lifetimes to push discussion to the left. They don't learn this because our education system fails at teaching basic concepts of civics.

I went through that once and backed Obama. All it got me was my insurance rates increased and thanks to the push in H1-B visas my wages stagnating. Can you see why I'm not exactly excited to continue that for another four years?

It's a globalized economy -- your wages are going to stagnate. Free trade agreements and work visas are two of the most visible signs of this, but you're not going to reverse trends of globalization. Is Bernie promising to erect walls of protectionism, cancel our free trade agreements through executive orders, and wreak havoc on the tech industry by eliminating the H1-B visa?

What do you expect Bernie Sanders or your ideal candidate to accomplish along this front in the next four years?

 

[crimsonspider89]

Definitely sucks what goes on at the local levels as far as turnout. And Flint is disgusting what was allowed to happen by conservative leaders.

But I wonder if that is a pure money problem or an issue of voters not seeing the glamour in local elections and therefore not showing up as much as they should. Not to say that should even matter, as everyone as a matter of practice should want to improve everyone's lives, but.....

I just think things like Citizens United, while shitty, are much less important than crap like basic infrastructure improvements, institutional racism issues, etc.

Citizens United is PREVENTING those things from being implemented.

That is the problem. Super PACs have cause America to stagnate.

 

[Chindogg]

Your vitriol all evening is proof enough I'm right. But believe what you must.

You've been just as aggressive in your tone, which is what has pushed me to this level.

Perhaps I should step back to reevaluate after a cooler head, but I have not appreciated your holier than thou attitude towards me or others who disagree with your supported candidate.

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

Citizens United is PREVENTING those things from being implemented.

That is the problem. Super PACs have cause America to stagnate.

It's funny you say this on the night Jeb Bush drops out.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

GAF I know you don't like trump but realize these people are all the same. Hillary is being paid like a stuffed pig so is rubio. Trump and Bernie are gonna give you the best chance for what you want.

Here's the real deal. We live in America and a socialist will not win. Trump on the other hand can bring in both party voters. Why? Bc be will get the blue collar worker and for good reason. Vote Trump to make a difference.

This message brought to you by the League of Uninformed Voters

 

[Averon]

And Sanders is a what? Magical truth fairy?

Which is pretty funny.

Since one Democrat candidate is writing checks he knows he can't cash.

Never said Bernie could cash his checks. I'm partial to Bernie, but I knew he couldn't do 90% what he was proposing. But his message of getting money out of politics resonated with me and got me supporting him.

 

[Blader]

Fair enough. I refuse to vote for Hillary Clinton. Period. I won't vote for a Republican but I'm not giving her my endorsement.

Is that greedy and selfish? It might just be, but it's not my responsibility to vote for someone who doesn't stand for my ideals just because it might help someone else out. Obama burned my trust in 08 but I fell in lockstep in 12. I'm not doing it again.

Actually, I think acting purely out of self-interest without regard for potential harm to others is the definition of selfish.

 

[aspiegamer]

At first the meltdowns were sorta funny, like what happens when a naive person meets reality. But damn, this has gotten extreme. There's no humor in this anymore.

Lol at Gaf acting like Super Pacs aren't that bad.

Legal bribing is cool, y'all.

Please quote instances of GAF talking all cool about SuperPACs. Unironically.

Which is pretty funny.

Since one Democrat candidate is writing checks he knows he can't cash.

Indeed. Especially people who went through Obama in 2007-8 should know better. Anyone who doesn't know better, go ask an Obama person from 2007-8 how this works. Just because a candidate promises you shit doesn't mean you're get any of it. Even with unbreakable majorities in Congress Obama couldn't pass things anywhere near as far left as Sanders is proposing.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Citizens United is PREVENTING those things from being implemented.

That is the problem. Super PACs have cause America to stagnate.

So Citizens United is the direct cause of Michigan electing a red governor?

 

[crimsonspider89]

It's funny you say this on the night Jeb Bush drops out.

Yes one user of Super PAC out of how many dropped out? Great example. Could be he had the personality of a wet towel.

You've been just as aggressive in your tone, which is what has pushed me to this level.

Perhaps I should step back to reevaluate after a cooler head, but I have not appreciated your holier than thou attitude towards me or others who disagree with your supported candidate.

Yeah the holier than thou attitude shown by Hillary supporters is just as bad as the attitude shown by Bernie Bros.

Makes me want to abstain completely from the election.

 

[Roland_Gunner]

H

There's no point in repealing it, as its just a piece of paper at this point anyway. Dodd Frank which was already weak to begin with in its original state is being dismantled every day through amendment process after amendment process.

Also, i don't see how you can claim a mini depression is going to happen if Hillary loses, when its already certain to happen if she wins.

Banks leverage is by definition far too high already. when one inevitably fails because of the non restrictions a hypothetical Clinton would never put on them, of course its going to ripple across the economy like in 2008.

Between Dodd - Frank and stricter requirements from the Fed, financial leverage has basically reverted to 1990 levels and is still trending down. We're miles away from the scenario that brought about the Great Recession. DF wasn't perfect and we certainly need people like Elizabeth Warren to keep it in place but the idea that its "just a piece" of paper is wrong.

 

[danm999]

GAF I know you don't like trump but realize these people are all the same. Hillary is being paid like a stuffed pig so is rubio. Trump and Bernie are gonna give you the best chance for what you want.

Here's the real deal. We live in America and a socialist will not win. Trump on the other hand can bring in both party voters. Why? Bc be will get the blue collar worker and for good reason. Vote Trump to make a difference.

I don't think most people here are interested in the kind of difference Trump would make.

 

[crimsonspider89]

So Citizens United is the direct cause of Michigan electing a red governor?

Cause and effect.

Super PACS enable misinformation to be spread, and massive ad bombardments that trick voters into voting for there candidate.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Why bother, dude?

This shit is beyond parody. We're the laughing stock of future generations.

I know, its horrible...luckily the kids are on the up and up because they largely follow non traditional media....but the older folks who are largely either affluent, or watch TV and pay attention to the media owned by the large telecom companies are going to fall right into their trap.

Its just a shame because like many things, its a slow moving train, and we just can't seem to get out of the way in time, yet again.

And when another crash does happen, people are going to be looking around wide eyed, again, because such a thing happened, again.

 

[Averon]

I mean, one of the reasons it is so hard to get even a little gun control passed is the fear of NRA and gun lobby money flooding towards your primary opponent. That right there should show how much of a problem money in politics are.

 

[Blader]

Tell that to my neighbors here in Flint and how their water's doing.



This magical assumption that Hillary's going to nominate liberal anti-corporate justices is headshaking. We might get some justices that are liberal on social issues, but there's no fucking way she's going to get Citizens United overturned when it helps her so much.

Why would she continue needing their help after she's president?

The Supreme Court won't be able to revisit Citizens United for a long long time, long after a presumably elected Hillary has left office and retired into private life. She's not going to be raising millions with super PACs when she's 90.

 

[exmachina64]

GAF I know you don't like trump but realize these people are all the same. Hillary is being paid like a stuffed pig so is rubio. Trump and Bernie are gonna give you the best chance for what you want.

Here's the real deal. We live in America and a socialist will not win. Trump on the other hand can bring in both party voters. Why? Bc be will get the blue collar worker and for good reason. Vote Trump to make a difference.

Vote Trump to oppress non-whites, women, and the LGBT community.

 

[kess]

money in politics means spending it competently

Jeb didn't

 

[googleplex]

There needs to be a wakeup call within the Democratic party that throwing out a coronation for Hillary because it's "her turn" is bullshit. Younger voters continue being disenfranchised by the party by continuously pushing candidates that failed them when it mattered.

If it takes their person to lose when she was all but guaranteed to win then so be it.

.

How unbelievable smug. Did it ever occur to you the people might ACTUALLY believe Hillary is just the better candidate?

 

[Amir0x]

I know, its horrible...luckily the kids are on the up and up because they largely follow non traditional media....but the older folks who are largely either affluent, or watch TV and pay attention to the media owned by the large telecom companies are going to fall right into their trap.

Its just a shame because like many things, its a slow moving train, and we just can't seem to get out of the way in time, yet again.

And when another crash does happen, people are going to be looking around wide eyed, again, because such a thing happened, again.

if only Bernie was in office, he could send a stern, ineffectual message for which no Congress in current Washington would touch in a million years to Wall Street to stop doing bad things!

 

[Almighty]

Well if this really does spell the end for Sanders I expect to start hearing an earful from my friends and family about how this country is doomed/foolish/etc over the coming days/weeks.

Personally while I like Sander much more than Clinton as long as a democrat takes the White House I will be happy. The absolute worst case scenario for me is that we eventually do get a Bernie 2.0 in the White House and his policies get gutted or struck down by a conservative leaning supreme court. All because some people in 2016 didn't get their preferred candidate and cut off their nose to spite their face.

 

[Chindogg]

Never said Bernie could cash his checks. I'm partial to Bernie, but I knew he couldn't do 90% what he was proposing. But his message of getting money out of politics resonated with me and got me supporting him.

Exactly. I don't think anyone legitimately thinks Bernie's going to pull off much of what he promises. This is more about making a statement on the future of the Democratic party and telling people they're idiots if they don't vote for Hillary completely flies in the face of that.

It's angering and frustrating to have to kowtow to a group of supporters that have basically lambasted you as insignificant until you became a threat then attacked you as everything against social justice under the sun in order to prevent what's basically political Armageddon.

How unbelievable smug. Did it ever occur to you the people might ACTUALLY believe Hillary is just the better candidate?

I'm sure there are. And those people also believe that anyone who doesn't think she's the one are somehow lesser than them. That's the problem. You've had people saying that women who don't vote for Hillary deserve a special place in Hell.

The irony in your statement is that I'm being smug when so far it's been a massive Hillary coronation until Sanders became a threat, then it became Sanders supporters are below Hillary supporters.

 

[Chezzymann]

If trump somehow does become president, he would be the first president that wasn't a politician or military official right? That's pretty crazy.

 

[Prodigal Son]

Please quote instances of GAF talking all cool about SuperPACs. .

Well you can ask Jeb Bush how much money in politics actually mattered.

Yup, that $100M++ spent by Jeb!'s SuperPAC sure made a statement! Well, actually, they did, but not in a good way. His votes in IA and NH cost something like an effective $3000 and $1500 each, respectively. Trump? Self-funding? Under $100.What the freaking crap does this have to do with any of this?

^ Superpacs not helping the fucking turtle Jeb Bush win the nomination apparently means pacs aren't a horrendously corrupt system that we shouldn't be putting all our efforts into getting rid of.

 

[Amir0x]

I'm sure there are. And those people also believe that anyone who doesn't think she's the one are somehow lesser than them. That's the problem.

Oh is that what all those people believe

is this seriously what even you believe?

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Cause and effect.

Super PACS enable misinformation to be spread, and massive ad bombardments that trick voters into voting for there candidate.

This has existed since politics were a thing. Dirty tricks, lies, and vitriol out-dates that SCOTUS decision. Looking at the governor history of Michigan, it has basically alternated democrat and republican since 1933.

 

[HylianTom]

Why would she continue needing their help after she's president?

The Supreme Court won't be able to revisit Citizens United for a long long time, long after a presumably elected Hillary has left office and retired into private life. She's not going to be raising millions with super PACs when she's 90.

SCOTUS can revisit it within a decade if they so please.

Where are people getting this silly idea that the Supreme Court can't overturn itself without X number of years passing by?

HERE:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_overruled_United_States_Supreme_Court_decisions

There have been a number of cases overturned in under a decade. It's entirely within the realm of possibility, especially given how strident the dissent in Citizens was.

 

[Blader]

Walker and Jeb failing in their presidential runs just prove how bad they were as candidates, not that super PACs are ineffective in influencing opinion.

That, and super PACs need to be run by competent directors. How fucked is Mike Murphy now?

 

[Crimson_Fate]

Anti Hilary vote I am assuming?

Nope... Most of Hillary and Bernies rhetoric is on the social side of things , personally I don't vote for president based upon social issues just economic and I don't see either of them having a clue when it comes actually fixing the economy.

This is the one area where I believe Trump has going for him. He knows what the presidency is, its a Project Management position, he doesn't do anything he just makes sure that things get done. Trump knows how to surround himself with people capable of getting things done and changing direction and trying something else if things fail to work out.

That's the one thing you will never see from a Republican or Democrat establishment candidate where they will ram their policies through till the end of time regardless of consequences just to cater to their base and their reelection.

 

[blackjaw]

^ Superpacs not helping the fucking turtle Jeb Bush win the nomination apparently means pacs aren't a horrendously corrupt system that we shouldn't be putting all our efforts into getting rid of.

Ruh roh...bubbles bursting