Manmademan
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you're late to the party, tears are dry
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The South Carolina Primary & Nevada Caucuses |Feb 20, 23, 27| Continuing The Calm
- Thread starter NeoXChaos
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you're late to the party, tears are dry
Out of curiosity, do you think Obama is neoliberal?
Wow, a person who literally runs on spite.
Now there's sommit I can toast to.
and whiskey
Here's the biggest frustration: this is the exact attitude people had in 2000 when it was Bush v Gore. "They're both the same" "What does it matter anyway" "Douchenozzle v Turd Sandwich"
And then we invaded Iraq two years later.
Policy matters. A lot.
SolarPowered
Member
Yeah, I was playing SFV and didn't notice the time the post was made. I'm just reeling from this. Carson outlasted a Bush and Jeb dropped out right after losing even with his brother's help. This couldn't be better.
Usually incorporating "Martel" into a name is not a sign of someone interested in progressive causes.
Jon Carter
Member
Sometimes the enemy of your enemy is not your friend, it's still your enemy.
Everybody knows Hillary will win. If there are a few thousand people for whom voting for Hillary would be a stain on their conscience, then they don't need a lecture. They know the worse option will lose anyway, so their decision is something personal to them. If they really disagree with something Hillary did/will do/stands for, don't ask them to go against their values and support her when she will win without their vote anyway.
Everybody knows Hillary will win. If there are a few thousand people for whom voting for Hillary would be a stain on their conscience, then they don't need a lecture. They know the worse option will lose anyway, so their decision is something personal to them. If they really disagree with something Hillary did/will do/stands for, don't ask them to go against their values and support her when she will win without their vote anyway.
Its sad that many Hillary supporters wont accept this is the truth about much of bernies support. Theyd rather vilify bernie supporters because their partisan sensibilities are offended and they cant stand to admit their own party is just as corrupted as the Republicans. This is where the division among progressives is coming from, not from bernie.
Absolutely. He's a great guy who's helped this country a lot, but I don't agree with all of his policies. I wish the American left wouldn't be so forgiving of his shortcomings.
Why? Do European Islamophobes overly idolize Charles Martel?
I'll be having that afterglow just fine. I'm getting the first female president, I'm getting the senate, I'm getting the supreme court. I'm getting the past eight years, the next four years, the next eight years, the next sixteen. We get history. You get your shrug of defeat and pat yourself on the back for being an underdog. What a star of participation!
It's not really. You can say "both parties are the same", "both are corrupted the same", "both don't represent me" ....different flavors, all the same thing.
Fact is there is a difference and it's a fact. Fact twice in the same sentence. The better argument should be " I don't care about either party or what they represent". But obviously posters won't alienate themselves thus put forth the cheap shot of "both the same"...
My first thought was of an extremely minor professional wrestler from the early 90's. Upon further reflection, it does occur to me that a certain Frankish historical figure from the Middle Ages might be of relevance to someone with the sensibilities and anxieties of a contemporary Republican voter.
I could still be off the mark, though.
Yeah, the naive ignorance in their argument is a really obvious tell-tale sign of youth. If you grew up in the national nightmare that was Bush, you may not realize how different things were under a "moderate" liberal like Bill Clinton.
If you're gonna bring up invading Iraq, keep in mind Hillary was all for it, voted to extend the Patriot Act, thinks Edward Snowden's a traitor, and wants to intervene in Syria while enacting a no fly zone.
When it comes to military philosophies, Hillary's very hawkish.
I'm 32. I've been through a lot more shit than you think so please keep the assumptions to yourself.
I mean the answer to this should be obvious.
There is difference in policy of course. Im not saying theyre both the same. But they are both equally influenced by private money in a way that undermines the well being of their constituents.
I'm asking sincerely. Charles the Hammer has absolutely no relevance to American culture, and I'm not sure what kind of legacy he has even in France.
Shame if that's the case, because Charles Martel was a really interesting leader who played no small role in establishing France as we know it.
I've said this already, but look up the histories of Bill's Supreme Court nominees and compare them against Bush's, then come back and try to say they're equivalent. Seriously. Just try.
Equally how?
Dodd-Frank? ACA? Medicare? Social Security? EPA? Climate Change? Fuel standards?
Lets dispel this notion that both parties are as equally corrupt as the other. One party is not as corrupted. Both parties depend on money to support the party structure and candidacies. It takes money to win elections period. Not everyone can self-fund like Bernie at a state level, local level etcc.....the idea that money today is a big issue? It's always been a big issue...even before Citizens United. There is however a clear difference as to which party money corrupts the most.
So this is completely about Justices? Are we to just ignore everything else and focus completely on the Supreme Court here?
I'm even more disheartened by this election than I originally was.
How about gun control, the military-industrial complex, workers' rights?
Republicans are indeed the Snidley Whiplash evil party, but let's not pretend that Democrats don't share their amount of inaction when it counts.
As much as I entertain the idea of Trump being president, I don't see a Republican winning a national election in my lifetime, outside of a radical centrist returning the party to it's original policies before Newt Gingrich in the 90s.
GoldenEye 007
Member
I'm sure you'll be infinitely more disheartened if a R gets into the presidency.
Yeah, he's a fairly well appropriated symbol among certain elements of the far right. /pol/ loves him of course, for example. He may not have relevance to American culture in particular but that doesn't mean he doesn't serve as a nice symbol, like crusaders.
Take a deep breath, get a good night's sleep, and accept that you live in an imperfect world where you have to accept imperfect solutions. Your family, friends, and children's lives will be made better for it, as will yours.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yann_Martel
Life of Pi was life changing
I caught CNN saying the Republican turnout was more than 700,000. Over a hundred thousand more than in 2012
Beautiful post. I feel for you and your brother because I have a nephew that was just recently diagnosed with Asperger's (ASD), and it's been really hard. He's still young, but I worry about him becoming side-lined in society, or depressed as an adult because of his difficulties. That's another reason I support Hillary, she's the only candidate that actually has an autism plan:
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/brie...adults-living-with-autism-and-their-families/
Makes me so happy to see that. I truly hope that things get better for your brother (and that a Dem wins the WH!)
1) She and many other Democrats voted for the war and she has since publicly stated it was mistake to vote for it. The fact that Pres. Obama made her Sec. of State during his term shows that he thought highly of her foreign policy skills, to question her judgment in that area is to question Obama's/
2) As did many other Democrats. And Obama resigned the bill as President to keep many of its elements in place.
3) Edward Snowden is a traitor, well actually that probably isn't the right description since treason is a specific charge under the Constitution which supports the death penalty. However, he is guilty of leaking classified information which he was not authorized to receive or convey to others. Information which has hurt this country's foreign relations and intelligence efforts.
4) Bernie Sanders has also stated that we should continue to fight ISIS in Syria. Of course, he has been very vague when it comes to clarifying what that support would look like.
Aaronology
Member
Bullshit. Democrats are far from perfect, but it absolutely amazes me after the last eight damn years we're still getting people attempting to trot out the "both parties are the same" argument. What's sad, qq, is that this nonsense isn't coming from the GOP where I could at least understand the equivocating, but from those on the left who should know better. Trust me, you're doing a great job vilifying Sanders' supporters yourself.
Charles Martel earned his nickname by winning a major battle against Islamic forces that people credit with preventing further Islamic expansion into Europe. Current right wing anxieties tend to focus on perceived threats from Islam.
Edit: Looks like I was wrong.
Ziltoidia 9
Member
The general is a long way off. If she loses it won't be because of Sanders' supporters.
You can point to many instances where Democrats have failed. Can' be denied. But if we're going to do a liberal litmus test, a progress litmus test or whatever you want to call it --- there is one party that has done much more for the american public over the last 50+ years than the other - many times going against vested interest that would of loved to see the status-quo or worse outcomes prevail. That's the bottomline.
As for defense spending. Gotta break it to you but America loves being the strongest and fittest. Even among majority of Dems I say defense spending cuts = weak. It's a fine balance when you talk about defense spending in this country. Save to say Democrats would prioritize domestic spending much more than the GOP - and that's clear.
You're the one that kept raising the point about justices though ("I don't trust Hillary to appoint anyone but corporate friendly justices").
And given that there's an open seat on the bench, with potentially one or two more in the next four years, yes, the Supreme Court is an extremely huge issue going into this election.
I think a lot of the "both parties are the same!" thing comes out of the fact that both are capitalist parties. So long as the Democrats stick to capitalism, they'll tend towards finding band aid solutions and half-measures rather than attacking the real source of much of America's woes, which is the capitalist class itself. And being reliant on moneyed interests makes it that much easier to become compliant with the capitalists (see Obama's handling of Wall Street). One party is certainly worse than the other but that doesn't mean we should be satisfied with the way the Democrats handle the economy.
This sort of thing doesn't get talked about much because it's not mainstream (yet). Hopefully Bernie, despite being ultimately a capitalist himself, will have prodded people more in the correct direction so that we can be open about this sort of thing.
Again, youre talking about policy positions and rhetoric. Im talking about representation and financing. Democrats are by and far better for progressives. But they dont represent common voters the way they should in a democracy because they exist in a corporatist polical environment that affects them the same ways it does the Republicans. To someone who does not have a vested emotional interest in the Democratic party, this fact is obvious. Hillary claims she will pursue aggressive campaign finance reform once she is elected by that very system. I hope she will make good on her word, but Im not too optimistic.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
oh really? so when I see posts about how black people are too stupid for their own good, Bernie supporters chanting "No translator" after losing in Nevada, comparing Bernie getting confronted from BLM protestors to the events of "Little Rock Nine" and segregation/racism in general...
I could go on and on, but just looking at the supporters who will go Trump just shows that there is a core section of Bernie supports who aren't progressive at all, and that's something that Bernie and his supporters don't want to admit.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/02/18/us/politics/19-precedents.html?smid=tw-share
There are 67 cases decided 5-4 by the conservative majority on the supreme court over the past few decades.
Imagine all of those (including Citizens United) getting flipped back the other way.
That's why the SC noms are so important, and why the GOP may filibuster whoever Scalia's replacement is.
There are 67 cases decided 5-4 by the conservative majority on the supreme court over the past few decades.
Imagine all of those (including Citizens United) getting flipped back the other way.
That's why the SC noms are so important, and why the GOP may filibuster whoever Scalia's replacement is.
1) and 2) Democrats lately follow neoliberal philosophies, which 20 years ago would look like moderate Republican policies. Obama has had zero problems droning the shit out of people regardless of collateral damage. The NSA spying on Americans under his watch was greatly disturbing as well.
3) Informing the American public that their government has betrayed their trust is not being a traitor. That's being a hero to the American people even if they don't realize it. Considering that Obama wants to put him in a very dark hole never to see the light of day I don't blame him from running.
4) Bernie's record has been pretty damn good when it comes to the necessity of military action. He might want to do more in Syria but he hasn't so far come out in favor of intervening to the extent Hillary wishes to do.
The black voter posts are disturbing but a minority. Not nearly to the extent of the Bernie Bro accusations thrown around. The No Translator chant was debunked.
A fair amount of independents are swaying between Bernie and Trump because they're not establishment candidates. Of independents, some aren't progressive socially but fiscally. That's just what happens with more idealistic candidates.
I didnt say theyre both the same in the way you think i am. Please give me a chance to clarify before you pass such harsh judgment on me.
Amen to this. Minorities and women have been watching from the sidelines and compromising on who runs the country for CENTURIES.
Aaronology
Member
This was never an actual point of contention. The goal post was subtly moved from "the Democrats are just as bad as the GOP" to "the Dems aren't perfect."
Of course no one here has argued they were.
Edit:
Fair enough.
Amen.
Republicans: Down with Planned Parenthood
Democrats: Support Planned Parenthood and women's right to control their own bodies.
Republicans: Deport 12 million illegal immigrants
Democrats: No mass deportations, and reasonable paths to citizenship.
Republicans: Ban Muslims
Democrats: LOLwut you can't be serious
Republicans: Down with Gay Marriage
Democrats: Support and protect gay marriage.
Republicans: Innocent black people are dying? LOL - COPS ARE GREAT
Democrats: Yeah, but maybe they can stop shooting black people a little bit.
"Both parties are basically the same" and all offshoots of that premise is the ultimate argument of the priviledged.
Those are isolated incidents. Your argument is the same as when someone laughs off global warming because its cold outside. Sanders and his supporters have been demeaned and ridiculed since the moment bernie began to gain traction. It is what it is, but establishment democrats showed how much they really respect dissent when its aimed them. As a progressive, i find that disheartening.
On the flipside, I count on one hand the number of people I've met who argue that "both parties are the same." I think most people recognize that there are substantial differences between the Republicans and the Democrats. Being online tends to magnify extreme opinions.
It doesn't have to be framed as an argument, either.
gutter_trash
Banned
Berniebros don't mind seeing a Republican President pack the SC with another Thomas or another Scalia just because their candidate did not win the nom
1) I doubt you fully comprehend what the NSA did and is doing as you use the phrase "spying on Americans under his watch." Nothing the Administration or any member of the Intelligence Community has done is against the law and in fact is explicitly supported by legislation. Second, Snowden didn't just leak the details of the NSA's metadata collection he released classified cables regarding various intelligence efforts including foreign policy negotiations with other nations and intelligence efforts and assessments regarding hostile foreign nations. Information such as that is nothing with which the public has any right to know.
Also, I have no idea where you get this notion that Obama wishes to put him in some "dark hole." First, Snowden fled the country to avoid any potential indictments and as of yet we have no idea if he has been indicted of any charges. Second, he broke the law and going through the legal system is far from "putting him in a dark hole."
2) Again, Bernie has been intentionally vague on what he would do with regards to Syria. Hilary is at least able to lay out a specific plan.
This is what i mean. Constructive criticism and differing opinion is met with insults and strawman arguments. Even on the left, partisanship and emotion wins out over good faith discussion. So be it.
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