I have a selective memory. ^_^
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The South Carolina Primary & Nevada Caucuses |Feb 20, 23, 27| Continuing The Calm
- Thread starter NeoXChaos
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I have a selective memory. ^_^
It will be up to Barack Obama and Bill Clinton to rally the troops essentially. She also needs a strong vp choice.
What I would really like to see is Caroline Kennedy running for a senate race and then try her part for the presidency. Or Elizabeth Warren, she's my type of person I'd love see as a president.
Yes you're one liner rebuttals are so enthralling to the debate at hand
A decent chunk of his voting record in the 90's is in stark contrast with the rhetoric he spouts today regarding the criminal justice system and the police.
I wish Hilary would call him out on it.
what? that one word was substantial enough to refute the point you were trying to make
No need to. She has this in the bag.
User 463088
Banned
One thing I don't understand is why Hillary didn't go there leading up to NV. Some of her surrogates were making that argument, and I get the idea of staying above it all, but that shit would have bern'd him real slow. She elected not to, though.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
He's not wrong though. There are millions of Bernie supporters, a handful of people on neogaf that you selectively choose are not representative of the entire base.
And let me flip this around You just claimed that Hillary would win the general and that Bernie would lose, but the only reason why that would be true, is if the Hillary supporters didnt vote for Bernie and allowed the republicans to take over.
So it works both ways.
Third Strike
Member
That, or they don't understand how a FPTP system works. Even Bernie, who is leading the progressive movement right now, understands what's at stake if a Republican wins, and will endorse and vote for Clinton in the general if she is the nominee. Funny seeing people in this topic claim they "understand" how the system works, when they clearly don't. I'm a lower-class minority, and I don't have the privilege to "sit out" the election because my preferred choice didn't make it to the general. I will vote for Bernie in the primary, but if he doesn't get it, then Clinton's my choice.
Giant Panda
Member
Far-left doesn't understand economics. For instance, some of what Bernie is already proposing is bad economic policy, such as the $15 min wage, and true socialists that want to go farther than that are even worse. Also, there is a tendency to be apologists for terrible governments or people simply because they are anti-America.
Manmademan
Member
no, its also true if republican attacks on bernie are more effective in regards to independents than attacks on hillary- and a lot of us here think this is true. Bernie has a LOT of dirt in his past that will go over like a lead balloon with independents once republicans bother to attack him on it- especially since Bernie refuses to set up a superPAC to combat it once it inevitably happens.
Hillary's favorability numbers are her floor. Bernie's are his ceiling. big difference there.
personally I think bernie can win in the general- it will just be a closer race with tighter margins, and that's not a risk I'm willing to take given that flipping the house and senate is my biggest priority.
Aaronology
Member
Yes, they have, as they are different people and different politicians. The fact remains that outside of Warren, there are very few prominent liberal advocates closer to Bernie than Clinton, and certainly zero in this specific election cycle. I acknowledge that Hillary is not the perfect candidate to a passionate Sanders fan. Her wall street connections understandably give some voters pause, not unlike Bernie's foreign policy and gun reform history might turn off Clinton voters. But again, their voting history is over 90% identical. So how petulant and shortsighted must you be to throw your hands up because you can't get your perfect guy in when there is a viable candidate with almost an identical record right beside him? No one with either a stake in this game and/or with a history of being politically active would champion abstaining in the GE, voting third party or backing Trump after Sanders. And yet that's the exact sentiment Bernie's most fervent are expressing again and again, as if they're trying to hold the rest of us hostage with their potential support.
I don't understand Bernie's history on Immigration Reform either. A progressive stance on the issue feeds perfectly into his economic policies.
Inspector Jones
Member
I'm not going to vote for Hillary if she wins, though I won't vote for Trump either (As I previously mused about). More then likely I'm just staying home then and will see how it turns out (Or vote for for a third party like Jill Stein).
Really though, I think Hillary could struggle in the general election. The primary has been very dividing and the subtle and not so subtle jabs the Clinton camp has taken at Bernie and his more ardent supporters is not really the best way to unite the base. I don't have numbers to back this up, but I think that more Hillary supporters would back Bernie if he gets the nomination then Bernie supporters switching over to Clinton. Some will, but I think a large percentage will not.
I've been apathetic for a long time politically; part of it is because I'm now an age where policies are really going to affect my life and future and that's why I think Bernie is killing it with the youth vote. He feels like a real politician who has the genuine interest of the people first. I cannot say the same thing for Hillary.
Really though, I think Hillary could struggle in the general election. The primary has been very dividing and the subtle and not so subtle jabs the Clinton camp has taken at Bernie and his more ardent supporters is not really the best way to unite the base. I don't have numbers to back this up, but I think that more Hillary supporters would back Bernie if he gets the nomination then Bernie supporters switching over to Clinton. Some will, but I think a large percentage will not.
I've been apathetic for a long time politically; part of it is because I'm now an age where policies are really going to affect my life and future and that's why I think Bernie is killing it with the youth vote. He feels like a real politician who has the genuine interest of the people first. I cannot say the same thing for Hillary.
Manmademan
Member
All of the house seats and a shit ton of senate seats are up for re-election. do these things just not matter if bernie doesn't win? Or is sitting home some kind of protest vote there too
Aaronology
Member
He is fueling his campaign with promises that he knows he absolutely would not be able to deliver on. He's certainly a real politician.
Manmademan
Member
It's amusing that bernie's policies rely entirely on a political revolution to force a republican congress to vote against their interest and ideology, when said revolution can't even win him any state in a democratic primary that isn't new hampshire.
And when he doesn't win his supporters that should be starting that revolution will stay home and not vote for things that actually matter like Congress or local races.
I'm support Sanders and dislike Clinton, but seriously Clinton is so much better than any of the GOP candidates (even Trump). I know that a lot of Bernie supporters have said that they won't be voting Clinton if she gets the nomination, but they really should just get past their feelings and vote for the lesser of the two "evils".
And btw the Nevada result was very impressive by Sanders. He was polling like -20 just a couple of weeks ago and Nevada was considered to be "easy Clinton win".
And btw the Nevada result was very impressive by Sanders. He was polling like -20 just a couple of weeks ago and Nevada was considered to be "easy Clinton win".
No, I've been looking at polling numbers the entire election. My interest in this election as a political scientist is to beholden to the numbers. Bernie doesn't have the numbers to support a claim that he can win the general election. Hillary does. It doesn't work both ways when one side has numbers and the other side has "what I feel"
I've used historical context to put the election in presepective while all the other poster has responded to me over two pages is one liners with no evidence to support his "one liners"
And yes there are polls showing there is a large group in Bernies supporters that would vote for trump, that's fact, not my opinion. There are polls showing Hillary voters wouldn't come out for Bernie in the general.
This doesn't even get into the problem with moderates and independents not likely voting for a "socialist" (a term I use loosely but in the American context). He has a numbers problem.
User 463088
Banned
Wait....how? You're at an age where college doesn't impact you. Fine. However, I assume you need healthcare. I assume you want to retire one day. I assume you want to live in a world that isn't on fire because of Global Warming. There is no person in this country who is not, in some way, impacted by the decisions that happen in Washington.
I am not shaming anyone into doing anything, but I am always so surprised when there exist people who, literally, feel they don't have skin in the game. How wonderful that type of worldview must be. As a member of a marginalized group, that type of privilege is something I'm, in a way, envious of.
So, while maybe your skin isn't in the game, consider the plethora of us, from women, to LGBT Americans, to racial and religious minorities, to the poor, to the disabled whose lives would be rekt if someone like Rubio or Cruz got into power.
Liberalism, to me at least, is about doing the most good for the most amount of people. Maybe it doesn't change my life, but if it changes the life of someone else for the better, then hell ya I'm in.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
I think this is a very small minority. I wouldnt worry too much about it.
Selfish and progressive are not mutually exclusive. Most progressives, even HRC fans, are selfishly voting for their own self-interests. That's not a critique of them, just the nature of democracy, ultimately. I'm not gay, but I support gay marriage because selfishly I think it will lead to a better society for me.
To be fair, that's exactly the point everyone is running on with respect to choosing SCOTUS nominees. Even the HRC fans in this thread are saying "we have to get HRC so we get SCOTUS our way". The irony of this becoming a big deal after Scalia dying is not lost on me, as well.
We have a more fundamental issue with SCOTUS doing more and more of Congress' job, and everyone sort of becoming OK with it.The idea that businesses shouldnt have a seat of the table when discussing policy is utterly ridiculous.
Third Strike
Member
Exactly. Even if Bernie doesn't win the nomination, he could still lead a revolution in Congress. Most of Bernie's promises have to originate in Congress anyway, and by electing a Democratic Congress, we could still see healthcare reform, minimum wage reform, and new Wall Street regulations.
you do realize that the only time I replied to you with a "one liner" was when that one line was enough to rebut the claim you were trying to make, right?
No, I want you to provide me evidence to support your claim, no one line rebuttals. I've seen some polling data to suggest my claim, I want to see you support yours, and no one liners are not enough to refute my entire post.
These are two other posts...sure only one time responding. I ask you now evidence to support your claims.
Goro Majima
Kitty Genovese Member
I don't think it's controversial to say that a lot of young voters would be less excited about the election if Bernie loses the nomination...which would probably translate into fewer votes for Clinton since the younger demographics I think historically have been more fickle. Not exactly surprising to see that perspective being expressed here either...right or wrong.
Trump winning the nomination might be the best thing for Hillary since you might be able to get people to get excited about voting for "Not Trump". Especially if you base it on an argument of voting against bigotry anyway.
Then again Trump winning might get Republicans excited so it's hard to say. This is a crazy election...
Trump winning the nomination might be the best thing for Hillary since you might be able to get people to get excited about voting for "Not Trump". Especially if you base it on an argument of voting against bigotry anyway.
Then again Trump winning might get Republicans excited so it's hard to say. This is a crazy election...
Republicans are ALWAYS excited and ALWAYS have high turnout.
Bernie is proposing social democracy policies, these are more center-left than far-left. I don't believe making a welfare state would erase the negatives of capitalism, and many socialists agree. There are some socialists that actively push for super high wages, but that isn't a goal of socialism. I agree with this, there are certain "anti-imperialist" guys in the far-left that seem to support any government because it doesn't like the US. In my opinion this apologetic viewpoint turns people off of the far-left and ignore the actual, positive movements we have had. Rojava is a currently existing autonomous state that has formed during the war in Syria. Rojava is libertarian socialist and are making great strides (and actively fight ISIS), but you don't hear much about them from the "anti-imperialist" bunch. The "anti-imperialist" people focus on and give respect to the wrong places out of sole hatred of another. So trust me, I get where you are coming from.
(Description of Rojava's government)
(Video of of Rojava)
ArkhamFantasy
Member
Bernie's policies are considered center-left in America? Because if you're talking about center-left on an international stage... well, those guys can't vote in US elections so their criteria is invalid when describing our political climate.
I could get behind this as long as the vp is peanut butter, or at least a nice creamy dairy butter.
Box of Kittens
Banned
Clinton has work to do with Sanders supporters; she can't just take their votes for granted.
That having been said, for all this talk of Sanders voters staying voting Trump/staying home/voting third party, the percentage of Sanders supporters saying they will vote for Clinton in the general is actually higher than the percentage of Clinton supporters who said they would vote for Obama in the general during the 2008 primary. People forget just how acrimonious that primary was. Again, Clinton will need to win some people over for sure and she's not entitled to any votes, but arguments that Sanders supporters will abandon Clinton en masse just aren't supported by history.
That having been said, for all this talk of Sanders voters staying voting Trump/staying home/voting third party, the percentage of Sanders supporters saying they will vote for Clinton in the general is actually higher than the percentage of Clinton supporters who said they would vote for Obama in the general during the 2008 primary. People forget just how acrimonious that primary was. Again, Clinton will need to win some people over for sure and she's not entitled to any votes, but arguments that Sanders supporters will abandon Clinton en masse just aren't supported by history.
Sometimes I feel like the only GAF member who hasn't decided yet between Clinton or Sanders.
I do think that in many ways Clinton would be the better President because she's much more experienced but holy crap enough of this nonsense that I'm obligated to vote for her. It's not my fault if a Republican gets elected. If Clinton is defeated, either by Sanders or Trump, she has nobody but herself and her campaign to blame.
I'm going to vote for who I think is the best candidate. If she loses because the youth vote didn't turn out for her, then maybe she should have worked harder to appeal to them. It won't be the voters' fault for not supporting a candidate who they don't even like. It's certainly not anyone's duty to vote for her just because she's not a Republican. Voters are free to vote or not vote based on any criteria they decide and the onus is on the politicians to court those votes.
I do think that in many ways Clinton would be the better President because she's much more experienced but holy crap enough of this nonsense that I'm obligated to vote for her. It's not my fault if a Republican gets elected. If Clinton is defeated, either by Sanders or Trump, she has nobody but herself and her campaign to blame.
I'm going to vote for who I think is the best candidate. If she loses because the youth vote didn't turn out for her, then maybe she should have worked harder to appeal to them. It won't be the voters' fault for not supporting a candidate who they don't even like. It's certainly not anyone's duty to vote for her just because she's not a Republican. Voters are free to vote or not vote based on any criteria they decide and the onus is on the politicians to court those votes.
Grover Cleveland
Member
My guess is a lot of the people who are threatening to abstain from voting if their nominee of choice doesn't get the nod don't give a shit about downticket races because they're convinced that the person they choose every four years is the be-all,end-all, Alpha and Omega of American politics.
They're probably also the ones who don't give a shit about showing up for midterm elections for Congressional seats, state governors, or hell even local elections (and your school board, city council, city manager, and Mayor will probably always have a more direct effect on your life than the President of the United States ever will btw) and then complain about Obama being a disappointment and failure of a President because he was forced to compromise too many times with the Republican Congress they helped elect.
Candescence
Member
While I don't trust Clinton to actually fulfil any of her campaign promises until she actually makes the effort to (she's deep in corporate money and is a weathervane on issues, which is a really bad sign), were I a US citizen, I'd most certainly vote for her if she won the nomination. I'm sure Sanders would be a good enough sport to endorse her presidential run. Better have her in than any of the GOP candidates.
Now, someone needs to lock up that asshole Bloomberg until the end of the election so he doesn't fuck everything up with a third party run, and the Democrats would be set for victory.
Now, someone needs to lock up that asshole Bloomberg until the end of the election so he doesn't fuck everything up with a third party run, and the Democrats would be set for victory.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
So you're repeating with yourself with a tired ass "it was legal" meme. Nobody gives a shit. It's still terrible behavior what the patriot act has done. Amazing that there is a defense force for shit like this...
Who?
These people aren't progressives. They're angry young adults who hate DC and want free college and single payer in a year -- like that's happening even under a Sanders administration.
This election is amazing. Never before has a primary exposed so many people who have a fundamental misunderstanding about how American politics works and how one can successfully push for change.
Hillary's unfavorables are unprecedented for a non-incumbent major party candidate running for president. The only compariable candidate is Trump, and the two aren't even that far apart anymore. I definetly hope Clinton's current numbers are her floor, but her unfavorables keep trending up.
The low caucus turnout should be concerning to all Democrats.
I don't even care who wins the primary anymore - I'll vote for either candidate - but I wish Democrats would start viewing their platform as a set of policy goals rather than a set of proposals they think they can get past Congress. First, the Republicans won't agree to pass anything progressive that is proposed by a Democratic president. Second, Democrats need to learn to organize around a platform rather than the personalities of certain candates. That goes for both some Clinton and some Sanders supporters.
Business should have a seat at the table, but it shouldn't have veto power. The technocratic government envisioned by a certain type of progressive actually is impossible if it does.
Does it even matter? They're people who would vote for Bernie but not Clinton. Maybe they'd even become more progressive if Bernie was elected.
Candescence
Member
To be fair, with today's political climate, one might as well try anyway. It's not like the GOP will be less obstructive with Clinton than they will be with Sanders, they tried to cockblock Obama at every opportunity purely out of spite. The GOP as it is now will never consider a Democrat president to be legitimate, and will be obstructive as possible as long as it suits them. Might as well push a progressive agenda that you were elected for, and then tell the people, "well, I tried, but congress isn't being reasonable, you should vote those fuckers out."
This thread has become disgusting. People who said they will vote for hillary even if bernie loses have been called out just because they point out she is not what they prefer. And if hillary loses it will be on gop turnout and her own unfavorables not the handfull of beenie supporters that may stay home.
I'm not defending anything merely disputing the fact that such policies are against the law. I would support any legislation that would seek to clarify and protect the internet/electronic privacy. In lieu of such legislation I would love for the S.C. to take a crack at the matter.
The way I see it, either we get a symbolic step forward for human equality in the most powerful country in the world or free college tuition and legal weed. I'm cool either way. There'll be liberal justices either way. I'm all good. My ass will be in the voting booth hitting the "democratic candidate" button as many times as it takes to go through. (Probably once.)
I'm honestly just going to feel wayyyy safer and more secure with a woman running things, goddamn finally. But I'll be psyched for President Sanders too.
I don't understand the people who threaten to vote for either Trump or no one if they can't elect Bernie Sanders into office. It makes no sense. Hillary's the candidate who openly supports Planned Parenthood, equal rights, immigration reform and much more. Trump's the fear-mongering blowhard who hits on his daughter, calls every Mexican person a rapist (except for the ones that are docile servants), and wants to start more wars in the Middle East for inane reasons.
What on earth could be going through this hypothetical Bernie supporter's mind?
I hope so. I mean, I just can't even fathom. There comes a point--and in this very exclusive case that point is voting for Trump over Hillary-- where I just can't see any other explanation besides not wanting a person without a penis telling you what to do.
Bernie's great. Refreshing to the extreme. He's totally uncompromising and solid in his beliefs, traits I wish Hillary shared. But oh my gosh, why the fuck would anyone not vote at all-- or vote for Trump instead-- in a Bernie-less scenario? This is the real world. What do these people think is going to happen?
One more time, to be absolutely clear: on this mostly-male board I have a history of easily throwing out insinuations and flat out allegations of misogyny and sexism, mainly because I've seen so many real, genuine examples of it throughout my life, and it's the one issue I strongly believe is the first step to solving all of humanity's problems. That accusatory trigger finger is something I'm really making an effort to reign in, especially on GAF, and certainly not what I'm trying to do here with anyone reading this. I just want explanations for the evidently ludicrous behavior in the scenario above that aren't deep-rooted misogyny, because, perhaps due to own current deficiencies of reason and rationality, I'm at a loss.
I'm honestly just going to feel wayyyy safer and more secure with a woman running things, goddamn finally. But I'll be psyched for President Sanders too.
I don't understand the people who threaten to vote for either Trump or no one if they can't elect Bernie Sanders into office. It makes no sense. Hillary's the candidate who openly supports Planned Parenthood, equal rights, immigration reform and much more. Trump's the fear-mongering blowhard who hits on his daughter, calls every Mexican person a rapist (except for the ones that are docile servants), and wants to start more wars in the Middle East for inane reasons.
What on earth could be going through this hypothetical Bernie supporter's mind?
I hope so. I mean, I just can't even fathom. There comes a point--and in this very exclusive case that point is voting for Trump over Hillary-- where I just can't see any other explanation besides not wanting a person without a penis telling you what to do.
Bernie's great. Refreshing to the extreme. He's totally uncompromising and solid in his beliefs, traits I wish Hillary shared. But oh my gosh, why the fuck would anyone not vote at all-- or vote for Trump instead-- in a Bernie-less scenario? This is the real world. What do these people think is going to happen?
One more time, to be absolutely clear: on this mostly-male board I have a history of easily throwing out insinuations and flat out allegations of misogyny and sexism, mainly because I've seen so many real, genuine examples of it throughout my life, and it's the one issue I strongly believe is the first step to solving all of humanity's problems. That accusatory trigger finger is something I'm really making an effort to reign in, especially on GAF, and certainly not what I'm trying to do here with anyone reading this. I just want explanations for the evidently ludicrous behavior in the scenario above that aren't deep-rooted misogyny, because, perhaps due to own current deficiencies of reason and rationality, I'm at a loss.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Okay. My point was merely from a moral outrage perspective.
GutsOfThor
Member
I agree. I'm not worried at all as I heard the same shit in 2008 coming from Clinton supporters that said if Obama wins they will not vote for him and vote for McCain. Look how that turned out.
Same thing will happen this year. Right now emotions are running high but as the election draws closer those people will fall in line as they always do.
Crimson_Fate
Member
I am planning on voting for a republican this election but if the nominee is Cruz I will stay home. There are some people I just can't support.
Veritigo_X
Member
Apparently that bar is really low!
oh I've got nothing to support those, I was more making a
slightly salty
the only real issue I have is with people using anecdotes to come to larger conclusions about Bernie supporters and what they will or won't do when the general election rolls around. that's why your post using an anecdote as evidence was met with a one word reply calling that out.
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