I'm attacking him? News to me.
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The South Carolina Primary & Nevada Caucuses |Feb 20, 23, 27| Continuing The Calm
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I'm attacking him? News to me.
TyphoonStruggle
Member
What's he suppose to say?
If Bernie endorses Hillary:
If she/he doesn't change his mind to vote Hillary ---> implies she/he's either stupid or never really believed in Bernie.
If she/he changes his mind to vote for Hillary ---> implies she/he has to rescind what she/he wrote just 10 min. ago. That makes her/him wishy-washy and kind of a liar.
Doesn't that seem like an attack?
SneakersSO
Member
He can come out in support of her, tons of other people have. I've looked into her & how she's been influenced by corporate interests in the past. I just don't want someone like that as President, especially when we're at a time where corporate interests keeps clashing with the interests of citizens over & over again. Bernie himself can come over & tell me to go vote for Hillary and I won't do it. I'm voting for a person, i'm looking into what drives & motivates that person, not the support that they've garnered by other individuals.
I just don't care enough about the political process to vote in most cases. Following this election has been one of the more dis-empowering experiences as a citizen. Bernie goes & wins the popular vote in NH, but loses due to super delegates? The amount of little issues that keep occurring that undermine the 'idea' of voting just keep encouraging me to just not care. I voted in '08 & '12 because I believed in President Obama & still do. He convinced me to vote for him. I liked his record pre-office, I liked his motivation, and i'm pleased with his performance in office. There is nothing on Hillary's resume that would make me believe in her as a candidate, so I won't bring myself to go vote for her.
DeadPhoenix
Member
He gave plenty of reasons why he doesn't want to vote for Hilary, whether or not you agree with them. There is no rule stating that just because you support a candidate you have to vote for whoever they endorse. Nor does he, or anyone else, need to defend not voting for whoever they endorses.
Grover Cleveland
Member
No one person can do it. No one.
Sanders
Clinton
Obama
Franklin Delano Roosevelt himself
None of these people would be able to unilaterally effect change. Sanders certainly isn't getting half of his agenda past the Republican Congress that "true progressives" help put in office every 2 years when they sit on the sidelines during midterm elections because they think only the man or woman in the Oval Office matters.
A left shift in this country's politics is absolutely possible (and eventually will happen), but it will only happen from the bottom-up. Putting liberals in office at the municipal, state, and Congressional levels is necessary before having Bernie Sanders as President REALLY matters.
Or that she/he believe in Bernie's ideals enough to separate the man from the man's misson. Bernie cares enough about his ideals that he want his followers to vote for Hillary, cause she the next best thing we have in this race to push his ideals forward.
That is not an attack.
gutter_trash
Banned
I will believe in a "revolution" when they actually go out to vote in midterms
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
If attempting to highlight what might be an inconsistency is seen as an attack then I can see why so many people get so defensive at the slightest criticism that the numbers in Bernie's plans might have issues
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This. The Presidency is the wrong place to look for for this sort of change. At its most peaceful look to something like the Tea Party sweep
There are issues to be had with super delegates, but nothing that has happened so far in this race highlights any of them.
Bernie didn't lose due to super delegates. Those were delegates that had already given their support an individual candidate, but in the event that Hillary met a potent challenger those super delegates have the right to, and most likely would, switch their support by the convention. If you followed the race between Hillary and Obama in '08 as you said, then you know that exactly this happened.
Bernie won NH, fair and square. But his campaign is about to lose steam, so I don't think he'll be able to make the case for those super delegates switching like Obama was able to.
TyphoonStruggle
Member
You think you're making a logical argument. But all you're doing is parroting more pro-Hillary point of views. BUT SHES ELECTABLE!
Berni supporters don't care about that. They care about integrity they see in their leaders. It's not something you can logic out.
It is indeed an attack. You really didn't say anything to dispel either of my cases.
TyphoonStruggle
Member
How about you encourage them to vote more rather than disparage them. You know you're saying that you don't believe that they mean what they say/want.
All you have to say is that whatever happens, you want them to vote in the midterms to keep momentum going for progressivism and the democratic party.
shinra-bansho
Member
...
You're going to need a much thicker skin if you're planning on participating in political threads and think that a question, asking what one would do if their favored candidate lost but endorsed their opponent, amounts to an attack.
You're going to need a much thicker skin if you're planning on participating in political threads and think that a question, asking what one would do if their favored candidate lost but endorsed their opponent, amounts to an attack.
Agent_Carnage
Member
Do you want Hitler in office? Hes going to affect you in some way Directly or Indirectly and you will be sorry.
Hes going to take way Gay Rights, Roe V Wade, Obama Care and other key laws Obama passed. But you will still be glad you kept your principals while other people are suffering under the Trump Administration.
User 463088
Banned
Hell I'll believe in the revolution the minute Bernie increases turnout. He can't get enough of his revolutionary force to get him the nomination, how can we expect them to turnout in midterms. And I'm not throwing Bernie's people under the bus here. My bae is a Bernie supporter.
I also enjoy it when people refuse to vote for Hillary because she's supposedly changed all these positions, yet Elizabeth Warren is given a pass on having been a Republican until 1996. I do love Warren though. I phone banked for her in 2012 like a mad person.
TestOfTide
Banned
HillaryGAF is trying to encourage people to vote. The problem is that you have a bunch of Bernie supporters who would rather increase the chance of losing all progress (by not voting at all if Bernie doesn't win the primary) then try and at least vote for the lesser of two evils. You don't see HillaryGAF saying they won't vote if Bernie gets nominated.
I'm at home, with the tv on. And I swear heard Donald trump quote the armour hot dog song in a speech.. Any clips to that?
http://youtu.be/luNi4TS6s8k
http://youtu.be/luNi4TS6s8k
AnotherNils
Member
How dare you attack his skin.
Prodigal Son
Member
The idea that many of us acknowledge the reality that our campaign finance system is corrupt yet continue to support candidates that exploit it baffles me.
I feel like you'd have be be fine with the system to show support to someone who has used it to get ahead. That, in an of itself, says a lot to me.
I feel like you'd have be be fine with the system to show support to someone who has used it to get ahead. That, in an of itself, says a lot to me.
Agent_Carnage
Member
To all the Sanders supporters who wont vote for Clinton. If she loses to Trump I want all of you to go door to door of people who will lose Obamacare and say your sorry. These people will lose access to affordable healthcare wont have money to pay for meds anymore. All because you had to get on a high horse about some revolution and wont vote for anyone else. All the while we have a Madman as President going to boot all the Muslims from this country and boot out the Illgeal people in here many with Children born here.
Also say sorry to them on them losing their parents being deported. Family's being broken up all because of your damn principals. If you dont have the back bone for that you dont have the back bone for this supposed Revolution.
To those people you are not liberal you are just a supporter for Hitler getting into office.
Also say sorry to them on them losing their parents being deported. Family's being broken up all because of your damn principals. If you dont have the back bone for that you dont have the back bone for this supposed Revolution.
To those people you are not liberal you are just a supporter for Hitler getting into office.
BoboBrazil
Member
With an election as important as this one, one that might have as many as 3 supreme Court positions come open during the next president's term, every Bernie supporter should feel compelled to vote for Hillary to ensure the spots are filled by liberals. That's how you will get your revolution eventually. Not putting a Republican into the white house and stack the court with conservative judges.
If only the world were so black and white.
Many of us are in support of reworking our campaign finance system. So is Hillary. But the reality is moral victories don't often lead to actual victories.
Until the system is reformed for everyone, exploit it to get your people in the door.
Honestly I'm not seeing much encouragement. What I'm seeing is HillaryGAF trying to blackmail people by pointing to the Republicans and saying "It's your fault if they get elected".
Which is nonsense because it would be Hillary's fault for losing voters, not the voters' fault for not liking her.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
In the absence of a different, viable system you use what you have.
shinra-bansho
Member
The sitting President used it. Because his opponent was doing so.
One of his considerations among many in his pending SCOTUS appointment will presumably be where that person would fall on the issue.
It says, to me, that you need to live in the reality you have, not the one you wish you did.
Because losing doesn't change anything.
Prodigal Son
Member
I don't know what to say to you if you think Hillary Clinton is opposed to the system that got her into power in the first place.
She isn't. Many Americans can see blatantly that she isn't. One can argue that that's okay. Many don't even consider it an issue. That's fine.
To me, it's a big issue. Reforming it for everyone firstly means we make major changes to our campaign finance system and do our best to remove money's influence from congress. We also strive to create a congress that represents the best interests of the people. We also make it so that as many people as possible can have their vote and voice heard. Then we'll have a true democracy. If you think Hillary Clinton is the candidate that will most effectively do this, there isn't much I can say that shouldn't be self-evident.
EDIT: Every response here expresses the exact same sentiment: Apathy to the less than satisfactory. This is fucking depressing.
TheOfficeMut
Unconfirmed Member
I feel like you and many others have idealistic tunnel vision and refuse to budge on bringing reform one step at a time. If she's going to get the nomination, then I am voting for her, whether she's in favor or opposed to campaign reform, because as a candidate she is still leagues better and more sane than anyone on the republican side.
TyphoonStruggle
Member
Yes that is a problem. As a Bernie supporter I took awhile to think about if I was going to vote or not. Utlimately I decided it was best to vote for Hillary in the General Election.
A lot of Bernie supporters are angry. Some more so than others. Some Bernie supporters will not vote for Hillary no matter what. But these are probably the minority.
But the truth is that attacks and attempts to logic them to vote (which sometimes is an attack that implies that they're stupid for not seeing how things actually are) is not the way to go.
The best way to go about it is to encourage them to continue voting through the general for Hillary and through the midterms for progressivism and the democratic party. Obama, though less progressive than Bernie, did do a lot of good for the country (from the perspective of a progressive). He could have done a lot more if he had a strong democratic majority in the House and the Senate.
All you have to say is that Obama could've been an even greater President if we had a larger turnout. And tell them that by giving up on the political process that future generations and other progressive groups will be weaker if they don't participate. Progressives need to continue to participate if they want to become a strong political force. Ultimately it's their choice to vote or not, but it's a good idea for them to vote democrat for the above reasons.
(Yes this is obvious. But framing argument from a benefits perspective--e.g., stay strong for progressive--rather than cons perspective--e.g., you will be responsible for dismantling Obamacare--is a better idea. I think people will think more critically if you keep it positive, and more reactionary if you paint stuff negative.)
Hillary voters and Bernie voters not really the same thing. Bernie supporters have high standards for integrity (or how the perceive it), and are less likely to be part of the Democrat base.
I suggest you don't use this argument because this won't work well. This "I would scratch your back therefore you should scratch my back," is inherently anti-Bernie. BECAUSE that's what money in politics basically is--i.e., favors for favors.
btgorman said:
How about you take your own advice and try to be civil in conversation? Without even known me, you labeled my thoughts as pro-Hillary, when the are just my thoughts. I am capable of thinking independently without Hillary's approval.
Some of us who support Hillary, also would be really cool with Sanders. It pains us to have to choose between to excellent candidates based on individual nuanced reasoning.
I don't think people who support Sanders silly for doing so. There are a lot of really good reasons to do so. If he does pull an Obama, and gets the nomination, I will happily vote for him.
So stop projecting that every Hillary support is laughing, attacking, and insult you, Bernie supporters, and Bernie himself. You reflect poorly on Bernie by doing so.
Leona Lewis
Banned
I hope you Sanders holdouts at least go out this November to support your legislators.
If any "revolution" is going to take place in our lifetimes, it'll be in Congress, not in the Oval Office.
If any "revolution" is going to take place in our lifetimes, it'll be in Congress, not in the Oval Office.
Prodigal Son
Member
A firm opposition to corruption isn't idealism. It's one of the few issues we have that isn't particularly polarizing (though this thread is certainly making me assume otherwise). Many Democrats and Republicans agree it should go but only one candidate is actually making it a primary agenda to rid us of the system.
"I'll lose otherwise" isn't a valid reason to exploit a corrupt system.
The only thing I want at this point is for progressives to not be complacent with Hillary and continue to try to push her to the left as much as possible. I'm worried that she'll try to pivot to the center once the nomination is locked up, and I don't want that. We can't have that. This is an election year about anti-establishment fervor and people wanting change. She can't come off as being a stuffy establishment type.
She needs to embrace income inequality in the way that Bernie has and push for a grassroots workers movement. She needs to get the fire lit under the base. She needs to be able to sway disappointed Bernie voters to her side. In the same way that BLM forced Bernie to realize his own shortcomings, we need to continue to hold Hillary's feet to the fire and make sure she realizes her own.
There's a lot of Hillary supporters here who at the least acknowledge that she has a lot of shortcomings. Once she's the nominee, let's make sure she addresses those shortcomings.
She needs to embrace income inequality in the way that Bernie has and push for a grassroots workers movement. She needs to get the fire lit under the base. She needs to be able to sway disappointed Bernie voters to her side. In the same way that BLM forced Bernie to realize his own shortcomings, we need to continue to hold Hillary's feet to the fire and make sure she realizes her own.
There's a lot of Hillary supporters here who at the least acknowledge that she has a lot of shortcomings. Once she's the nominee, let's make sure she addresses those shortcomings.
TheOfficeMut
Unconfirmed Member
And as soon as the one candidate is out, it makes the most sense to vote for Hillary. That's all.
EatinOlives
Member
You know what's anti-Bernie as well? Refusing to vote for a democrat in the general election, and actively contributing to the low-voter turnout. He hammers this point home in every debate, and unfortunately for many of his supporters those two points go in one ear and out the other.
Prodigal Son
Member
Sure, but I don't have to feel good about it.
Corrupt Candidate A's special interests favor mostly beneficial policies.
Corrupt Candidate B's special interests favor mostly destructive policies.
Of course I'll do my best to ensure Corrupt Candidate A is the one in power. That doesn't mean I'll feel good about supporting corruption. You can't blame people for feeling disenfranchised or apathetic when this is the system they're presented with.
TheOfficeMut
Unconfirmed Member
I'm not saying or blaming anyone for having apathy toward the other candidate. I have similar feelings. I'm just simply stating that we still have to vote for the next best thing.
There is no reason for them to aplogize because if hillary loses it is not because of them it would be due to hillary's own issues. I think maybe you are distorting the reality of the amount of bernie supporters that won't vote for her based on twitter, neogaf and reddit. Maybe look at the historical perspective a little bit. How many did not toe the line in 2008? Or, you could call them hitler supporters and sound the no smarter than them.
And that candidate is about to lose the nomination. Most importantly, that candidate hasn't been able to do a damn thing to raise money for down-ticket democratic candidates. Hillary, on the other hand, has raised something around 37 million dollars specifically to help get Democrats in office on all levels of government PRECISELY to create uniform change. All that change you talked about in your last post? Well, Hillary's gotten a lot closer to making it happen than Bernie has because she's used the system we have. But hey, moral high ground and whatnot.
"I'll lose otherwise" is a valid reason until you can explain why its not.
It's your right not to vote, but when you don't vote you have no right to complain about the going ons of this country. You had your voice and you refused to use it. There are lots of people to support. Hell you could still at least vote for Senate and Congress and then a 3rd party presidential canidate. Not that it matters. I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you refuse to vote cause you don't agree with 100% of the things the candidate who is running is saying you aren't a progressive, you just pretend to be one cause its fashionable. Hillary and Bernie agree 93% of the time, so it's not the largest gulf in the first place.
You do realize that Citizens United came about because of an attack ad on Hillary, right? Why on earth would she want to repeal it. Why on earth would she not be in favor of reforming something that benifits the Republicans far more than it does her? I hear this a lot from Bernie supporters, even though Hillary has preached for campaign reform time and time again. So either you don't know what you're talking about, or you're calling Clinton a liar. Which is it?
TyphoonStruggle
Member
I'm not saying that you are a Hillary shill. What I was saying is that your argument came off like that. This line in partcular:
That is definitely true and I agree. But Bernie supporters don't want to "settle." If they were willing to settle for something safe they would've backed Hillary as the candidate a long time ago. To them Hillary represents Politics as usual where we settle for the lesser of two evils.
Saying she's "the next best thing" implies that we should vote for her just because. Just like how the electorate should vote for Hillary because Hillary is electable and Bernie is not electable--i.e., just because.
You should take care on how your words can be interpreted. That does indeed sound pro Hillary reasoning.
BigWeather
Member
I think it is interesting that a handful of states that haven't a chance in heck of going Democratic in the general (or at least a very slim one) are the ones that determine who the Democratic nominee will be. That's the way it works, but it'd be nice if Hillary supporters remembered the role all those southern states played in getting her nominated after she's elected rather than openly ridiculing them. This nomination process would look quite a bit different if the post-Super Tuesday states went ahead of the Super Tuesday states as Sanders has a good chance with many of them and could build momentum.
No way Cruz gets it tho.
This thread really makes me want to vote for Trump at this point. The way people jump all over anyone who doesn't want to vote for Hillary is ridiculous. "But SCOTUS nominations! But Trump is worse! Lesser of two evils!" Does it ever fucking occur to you guys that maybe people don't live in swing states and otherwise play by the rules of how to vote in our terrible two-party system?
I will never vote for Hillary - and it really doesn't matter who I vote for - because I don't live in a swing state and my vote for a presidential candidate is inconsequential. I do however vote in every election (even midterms and primaries) like a good little citizen and vote for Democratic candidates in statewide and local elections. I'm doing about as much as I can to contribute with my one measly vote. But just because I don't support Hillary I'm apparently part of the Tea Party or something like this thread would have you believe.
TyphoonStruggle
Member
Some suggestions:
1. Don't call them holdouts. Just say Sanders and progressive supporters.
2. Don't put revolution in quotation marks. It seems like you're making fun of them. Just say that continuing progressive agenda needs to happen in congress in addition to the executive branch.
Leona Lewis
Banned
I call them holdouts because I'm only referring to Sanders supporters who claim they will abstain if Hillary is nominated.
As for #2, the joke writes itself.
googleplex
Member
This is bullshit. If these voter's can't be fucked enough to actually understand the issues and the gravity of situation. Or get over their hurt feeling that Bernie didn't win and understand there are bigger things at stake. That's not Hillary's fault.
The same shit was being said during the 2000 presidential race. And disgruntled "progressives" and democrats alike didn't bother to give a fuck or just didn't vote out of protest, and the result 8 years of Bush Jr.
Agree. Some Bernie supporters are more interested it supporting cult of Bernie, over actually supporting Bernie's platform. Build the revolution around the ideas, not the man himself. So if he doesn't make it, the revolution doesn't die with lose of one man.
The same is true of Hillary- she is not some deity figure. She is one of the two best options against the backward slid that the Republicans are hell bent on delivering. Yeah, that is not excite, but it is the truth.
This is why the Tea Party kicks ass in elections- they put their ideals before any one candidate. They got tired of the own party bullshit and made change themselves. Even when it is unexciting, they do the ground work and vote. This election is one step of many that are needed.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Sanders had the distinct advantage of having his two best states be the first two. That helped build a lot of his momentum.
I don't think Hillary supporters are attacking anyone.
But, frankly, maybe you shouldn't participate in a political thread in an election year if your entire point of view is, "My guy's not winning so I'm not going to vote."
I mean, what kind of response do you EXPECT to get? How do you expect people who give a shit about this country outside of their chosen candidates to react to you in a way that doesn't challenge you?
But, frankly, maybe you shouldn't participate in a political thread in an election year if your entire point of view is, "My guy's not winning so I'm not going to vote."
I mean, what kind of response do you EXPECT to get? How do you expect people who give a shit about this country outside of their chosen candidates to react to you in a way that doesn't challenge you?
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