Kotaku: Sony is working on a ‘PS4.5; briefing devs on plans for a more powerful PS4

VB: Is that with a generation coming in 2016?

Koduri: Yes. We have two versions of these FinFET GPUs. Both are extremely power efficient. This is Polaris 10 and that’s Polaris 11. In terms of what we’ve done at the high level, it’s our most revolutionary jump in performance so far. We’ve redesigned many blocks in our cores. We’ve redesigned the main processor, a new geometry processor, a completely new fourth-generation Graphics Core Next with a very high increase in performance. We have new multimedia cores, a new display engine.

This is very early silicon, by the way. We have much more performance optimization to do in the coming months. But even in this early silicon, we’re seeing numbers versus the best class on the competition running at a heavy workload, like Star Wars—The competing system consumes 140 watts. This is 86 watts. We believe we’re several months ahead of this transition, especially for the notebook and the mainstream market. The competition is talking about chips for cars and stuff, but not the mainstream market.

In summary, it’s fourth generation Graphics Core Next. HDMI 2.0. It supports all the new 4K displays and TVs coming out with just plug and play. It supports DisplayPort 1.3, the latest specification. It’s very exciting 4K support. We can do HEVC encode and decode at 4K on this chip. It’ll be great for game streaming at high resolution, which gamers absolutely love. It takes no cycles away from games. You can record gameplay and still have an awesome frame rate. It’ll be available in mid-2016.
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http://venturebeat.com/2016/01/15/amds-graphics-guru-describes-the-march-to-full-graphics-immersion-with-16k-screens/
 
timmyp53 said:
Believe. 14nm incoming.

DrqQAKD.png
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Lol
 
Obliterator said:
True for now, but it would also make it easier for them to achieve some of the things they want. I would expect this...



....To end up being true somewhat quickly
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Yup

GAF opinion on a title: "Hey this title doesn't hit 60fps"

Developer: "Yeah it does, we got it to 60fps
on PS4k and XB1 + versions

PC market and differing GPUs - this is fine. But as a Console owner, that line of conversation is going to get shit and tired VERY quickly.
 
Obliterator said:
True for now, but it would also make it easier for them to achieve some of the things they want. I would expect this...



....To end up being true somewhat quickly
Click to expand...

I wouldn't. If this is really a much better Ps4 (which would also be more expensive than the current one) they'd still to focus in the current base, which is more than 50 millions of users if we include the Xbox One owners, and I'd still expect the current PS4 to sell more than this PS4.5 for a long time.
 
Obliterator said:
True for now, but it would also make it easier for them to achieve some of the things they want. I would expect this...
Click to expand...

You run into a reverse problem then, because if developers get tempted or their work alleviated with the stronger hardware to achieve something, then it becomes a hassle to potential nightmare to somehow translate this down to the older hardware, unless you simply completely forgo said hardware.

The N64 Expansion Pack and Developer Memory are basically this, nearly two decades ago, where the extra memory made things possible that were otherwise a nightmare to somehow get working on the base 64 (and before the memory pack was actually released to the public, the developer to release "crunch" in fitting everything in the N64's original memory pool was a clusterfuck). But there the pack came with the game and every old unit was upgradeable. The modern systems aren't built with this in mind.

Obliterator said:
Yeah if PS4.5 is happening this will be the chip thats inside it almost guaranteed
Click to expand...

How much do you expect the PS4.5 to cost...?
 
jeffram said:
Not having full 16nm production ready doesn't mean they can't produce them at all from my understanding.

EDIT: I'm talking about producing a limited amount of chips for prototype hardware.
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Hell of a risk that the process will mature quickly enough for a mass market product though, unless Sony expects to pitch it as an 'elite' and smallish volumes
 
The Last One said:
I wouldn't. If this is really a much better Ps4 (which would also be more expensive than the current one) they'd still to focus in the current base, which is more than 50 millions of users if we include the Xbox One owners, and I'd still expect the current PS4 to sell more than this PS4.5 for a long time.
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Oh dont get me wrong. I expect the standard PS4 to see plenty of support for quite a while. That said these are standard built PCs essentially without much "secret sauce" to get out of them. Devs are already hitting walls. Easily.

I would just expect to start seeing less effort to a degree in the standard versions. Like someone said before, stop pushing for 1080p so hard for example. Just make it 900p and call it a day and get 1080p with a better framerate on the newer hardware
 
If this think can really play native 4k games don't expect it to be under 800. Not cheap at all considering they'd need the equivilant of a 300 dollar GPU to consider 4k gaming.
 
Vena said:
How much do you expect the PS4.5 to cost...?
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Depends on how hard they want to up the power. For now I don't think they would feel safe going above $500.

I also dont expect "true 4k" out of the machine for many if any AAA titles. I think thats more marketing speak than anything
 
Question time:

So the ps4.5 is kind of a reality now. So for the sake of playing games "the way it's meant to be" I have to buy a new TV that support 4k? and PSVR?
 
labx said:
Question time:

So the ps4.5 is kind of a reality now. So for the sake of playing games "the way it's meant to be" I have to buy a new TV that support 4k? and PSVR?
Click to expand...

Theres no way it will render games at 4k..MAYBE some indies but that's about it. They aren't going to make a $1000 box.
 
MaDKaT said:
Pretty much were I am. Was fully on board for PSVR but now, until details are cleared up, I'm not even planning on preordering. If I need a new PS4 for optimal vr, I'll just get a Vive or oculus.
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Yep, that's how I see it. Why go with subpar when you can save and get the PS4k for optimal VR. He'll the PSVR might be cheaper then too!
 
Obliterator said:
Depends on how hard they want to up the power. For now I don't think they would feel safe going above $500.

I also dont expect "true 4k" out of the machine for many if any AAA titles. I think thats more marketing speak than anything
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I mean, the article you quoted would be giving you a very, very high price tag. The Jaguar's are dirt cheap and a big part of why the current gen is so cheap (and so quickly). Replace a polished turd with cutting edge standards on the most modern of the production lines, and your price is going to do a little more than just rise. I'd sooner expect a two-gen jump on the cats, from Jaguar to Puma+. Rather than an entire shift in micro-architecture design.

The rest of the components are largely static, and if they increase the GPU they'll also see either a rise in price or a lack of decrease in costs.

You're not getting true 4k out of anything short of 900$+. On that we can agree.
 
labx said:
Question time:

So the ps4.5 is kind of a reality now. So for the sake of playing games "the way it's meant to be" I have to buy a new TV that support 4k? and PSVR?
Click to expand...

No, you don't. If anything, it'll downsample 4K to your 1080p, still making it look gorgeous.

With that said, I find it very hard to believe that every game released will be 4K. You may see a handful of AAA games going 4K, with most of them being indie titles. It's going to enjoy being a 1080p console, and most of the console gaming is going to stay 1080p until cards like GTX980 become cheap.

They're struggling to maintain 900p, so 1080p would be the norm.
 
Obliterator said:
Depends on how hard they want to up the power. For now I don't think they would feel safe going above $500.

I also dont expect "true 4k" out of the machine for many if any AAA titles. I think thats more marketing speak than anything
Click to expand...
1440p could be a solid goal for performance reasons and then just leave everything else up to the tv/console upscalers.
 
timmyp53 said:
Just remembered this.
7XzlTdS.png



It's real folks. Iterative consoles confirmed and incoming.
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No, that's still BS. They were just extrapolating from the Netflix codename for the platform. For example, the current Wii U app says "Wii U Luma", which is obviously just a reference to the Lumas of Super Mario Galaxy.
 
LostDonkey said:
NHL 15 was 720p on ps4 wasn't it?
Click to expand...

Maybe I don't know.

FF Seraphim said:
Sony would be stupid to reveal the PS4k at E3 with the PSVR right around the corner. Unless they are making some $700 bundle for the holiday season. I wouldn't buy a PSVR of the PS4k was coming out next year.
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I think it's just a PS4 Slim like move but instead of making the PS4 smaller they used it to upgrade the specs.

PS4 is already small so it's not much to gain from making it smaller but there is a lot to gain from slapping 4K on the box.


AMD is getting 2.5 times increase in performance per watt over the 28nm GPUs with the move to 14nm so going by that this update could be 5.06 Tflops of performance at the same power usage as the PS4.
 
FF Seraphim said:
Sony would be stupid to reveal the PS4k at E3 with the PSVR right around the corner. Unless they are making some $700 bundle for the holiday season. I wouldn't buy a PSVR of the PS4k was coming out next year.
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Yep, releasing an upgraded console this year pretty much means Sony wasted resources on the PSVR. I imagine most gamers will just go with an upgraded PS4 over the PSVR since its impact will be felt across a lot more games than PSVR will.
 
Vena said:
I mean, the article you quoted would be giving you a very, very high price tag. The Jaguar's are dirt cheap and a big part of why the current gen is so cheap (and so quickly). Replace a polished turd with cutting edge standards on the most modern of the production lines, and your price is going to do a little more than just rise. I'd sooner expect a two-gen jump on the cats, from Jaguar to Puma+. Rather than an entire shift in micro-architecture design.

The rest of the components are largely static, and if they increase the GPU they'll also see either a rise in price or a lack of decrease in costs.
Click to expand...

The part that makes me believe this chipset is targeted for a console in some capacity is 2 fold.

1. Its power draw fits DIRECTLY in line with the PS4 and Xbox Ones

2. AMD repeatedly stating this is designed as a mass market chip
 
I definitely think this is happening for both PS4 and Xbone. Patrick Klepick always ends up being right with these stories. As much as I don't like thinking of the cost of upgrading my system again, I probably will to take advantage of my 4K tv.
 
Pokemaniac said:
No, that's still BS. They were just extrapolating from the Netflix codename for the platform. For example, the current Wii U app says "Wii U Luma", which is obviously just a reference to the Lumas of Super Mario Galaxy.
Click to expand...

Oh your right. Still Defcon 1 for the incoming hardware war though.
 
Obliterator said:
The part that makes me believe this chipset is targeted for a console in some capacity is 2 fold.

1. Its power draw fits DIRECTLY in line with the PS4 and Xbox Ones

2. AMD repeatedly stating this market is designed as a mass market chip
Click to expand...

Its not impossible (though the TDP is entirely cursory, this is a general goal of all designs to lower the TDP which is done through lowering the needed wattage).

I am more questioning the price here (though I could also question the knock-back effect on such a large jump not only in power but also uarch changes, literally "cross gen" entrapment forever).

Also I don't think the timing works out well if the prototype is already built. These chips are only just now reaching stable production on limited fab nodes.
 
jdmonmou said:
How will Sony be able to sell a 4K console for $400 and still make profit? To have 4K done decently on PC you would need to spend around $650 for a GTX 980 Ti. AMD's R9 Fury cards cost about the same.
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Can we please stop with the silly mentionings of MSRP prices for PC GPU cards.

If console manufacturers are interested in upgarde, they will need a new APU. PS4 is 28nm [same as gtx900 line and Radeon Fury line], around 330mm2, and it costed ~$90 at launch.

If yields are the same, 28nm GTX970/980 chip is 360mm2, which means it costs Nvidia ~$100 to make it. 28nm 980Ti/TitanX chip is bigass 600mm2, which means its price is more along in $180 range.

If all goes well, 14nm ~970/980 performance chips will be achievable at ~200mm2, and ~TitanX performance at ~350mm2. If yields are great, Sony and MS can get really great peformance for $90-120.

Who knows what is the goal of MS and Sony with this. It may be something like this, it may be not. But one thing is sure, PC GPU MSRP prices have nothing to do in this talk.
 
Vena said:
Its not impossible (though the TDP is entirely cursory, this is a general goal of all designs to lower the TDP which is done through lowering the needed wattage).

I am more questioning the price here (though I could also question the knock-back effect on such a large jump not only in power but also uarch changes, literally "cross gen" entrapment forever).
Click to expand...

There should be a price guessing game thread. I'm leaning towards 600 bucks.
 
Vena said:
Its not impossible (though the TDP is entirely cursory, this is a general goal of all designs to lower the TDP which is done through lowering the needed wattage).

I am more questioning the price here (though I could also question the knock-back effect on such a large jump not only in power but also uarch changes, literally "cross gen" entrapment forever).

Also I don't think the timing works out well if the prototype is already built. These chips are only just now reaching stable production on limited fab nodes.
Click to expand...


In regards to pricing console manufacturers pay significantly less for their chipsets than a retail listing. The Xbox One APU only costs them around $100

Also they've been tinkering with the chip but if they are releasing the chip to market in mid 2016 its easily achievable that a prototype exists of it right now. These chips are hitting market in likely only a couple months
 
Raja Koduri : Polaris Is All About Giving Gamers A Sweet Performance Per Dollar Deal
Speaking with PCPer’s Ryan Shrout after the event, Raja revealed a bunch of interesting stuff about Polaris that wasn’t touched upon at the event. Chief among which is performance per dollar and market positioning. To that effect Raja said that he’d like to bring 14nm technology and all its goodies to as many people as possible. Furthermore, Raja said to expect Polaris based graphics cards cross the entire performance stack. From the entry level to the very top-end. He also stressed that everyone will be “very pleased” and “surprised” at what he and his team are going to do in terms of positioning.
Click to expand...

Raja Koduri, Chief Architect Radeon Technologies Group – Speaking With PCPer’s Ryan Shrout

“What you’ll see us do is completely different with Polaris 10 and 11. We are really focusing on trying to bring FinFET technology with it’s amazing performance per watt to as many segments as possible. As many ranges of performance as possible. I can tell you Ryan, you and your readers, you’ll be pleased at what we’re going to do with this thing and you’ll be surprised.
[…]
“We’re looking at the entire gamut of players, how many millions of them are there, what they buy, the performance per dollar aspect. How do we make it sweet for them from the performance per dollar aspect”
Click to expand...

http://wccftech.com/amd-polaris-sweet-performance-per-dollar/
 
shagg_187 said:
No, you don't. If anything, it'll downsample 4K to your 1080p, still making it look gorgeous.

With that said, I find it very hard to believe that every game released will be 4K. You may see a handful of AAA games going 4K, with most of them being indie titles. It's going to enjoy being a 1080p console, and most of the console gaming is going to stay 1080p until cards like GTX980 become cheap.

They're struggling to maintain 900p, so 1080p would be the norm.
Click to expand...

So basically the PS4.5 is for playing games at an steady 1080p + VR?

edit: might as well wait to ps5 and buy the whole bundle.
 
Obliterator said:
In regards to pricing console manufacturers pay significantly less for their chipsets than a retail listing. The Xbox One APU only costs them around $100

Also they've been tinkering with the chip but if they are releasing the chip to market in mid 2016 its easily achievable that a prototype exists of it right now. These chips are hitting market in likely only a couple months
Click to expand...

I know they do, as I noted with the Jaguar APU being a dirt cheap component which was why the consoles were so cheap. A cutting edge APU is not going to be anywhere near 100$, and remember that the Jaguar wasn't even cutting edge back then/now.

Potentially right, we'll have to wait and see!
 
Vena said:
I know they do, as I noted with the Jaguar APU being a dirt cheap component which was why the consoles were so cheap. A cutting edge APU is not going to be anywhere near 100$, and remember that the Jaguar wasn't even cutting edge back then/now.

Potentially right, we'll have to wait and see!
Click to expand...

Oh yeah I hear you, I'm just saying I don't think its impossible for them to use these knew Polaris chips given the way AMD has been talking about them. Repeatedly saying they are mass market and they are trying to drive the price down. Just my theory :-)

But like you said we'll have to wait and see for the time being!
 
Blackleg-sanji1 said:
And anybody thinking it will end well is kidding themselves. Said it in the original thread its going to take that one over ambitious dev thats going to fuck over the og ps4 version and other devs will follow
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Eh. Only if it pays off financially in sales. The Customer drives the market. And if that over ambitious developer hits a home run why not follow it's us who bought it.
 
DieH@rd said:
Can we please stop with the silly mentionings of MSRP prices for PC GPU cards.

If console manufacturers are interested in upgarde, they will need a new APU. PS4 is 28nm [same as gtx900 line and Radeon Fury line], around 330mm2, and it costed ~$90 at launch.

If yields are the same, 28nm GTX970/980 chip is 360mm2, which means it costs Nvidia ~$100 to make it. 28nm 980Ti/TitanX chip is bigass 600mm2, which means its price is more along in $180 range.

If all goes well, 14nm ~970/980 performance chips will be achievable at ~200mm2, and ~TitanX performance at ~350mm2. If yields are great, Sony and MS can get really great peformance for $90-120.

Who knows what is the goal of MS and Sony with this. It may be something like this, it may be not. But one thing is sure, PC GPU MSRP prices have nothing to do in this talk.
Click to expand...

Good post. Also PC GPUs will have a nice and juicy profit margin built in to account for.
 
Obliterator said:
Oh yeah I hear you, I'm just saying I don't think its impossible for them to use these no Pokaris chips given the way AMD has been talking about them. Repeatedly saying they are mass market and they are trying to drive the price down. Just my theory :-)

But like you said we'll have to wait and see for the time being!
Click to expand...

Oh I was never disagreeing with the possibility, haha.

I was coming at this more from the point of view of "that's going to be potentially veeerrrryyy expensive". Nothing more. Ultimately, they could slap Titan's into a console with i7s on board if they wanted to, its all just a matter of what the market thinks of the price-tag.
 
That's quite a big jump from Patrick isn't it? Going from hearing whispers to being prototype hardware and documentation.

I'm not complaining though, I'm basically for this. Though I'm just wondering if this just might be slightly earlier rumours of PS5 than a PS4.5 assuming this gen is a "normal" 5 year cycle?

Wasn't it late '11 for the first proper PS4 rumours? i.e. 2 years before launch. This would be 2.5 years before if for a standard new gen....
 
Blackleg-sanji1 said:
And anybody thinking it will end well is kidding themselves. Said it in the original thread its going to take that one over ambitious dev thats going to fuck over the og ps4 version and other devs will follow
Click to expand...

I think it'll cost too much to go all out.

That said supporting it and turning out a crap og version is definitely in the realm of possibility.
 
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