Thelonelykoopa
Member
I'm pretty sure he wants more black characters not making the character already into the game black.
Stardew Valley: Token minority character
- Thread starter Bboy AJ
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You're probably joking, but this is 100% feasible. The beauty of modding. That's the whole point, you can cater the game to your specific needs outside the developers original vision. Mind blowing, i know.
Technically, depending on how steam workshop implementation works out (and you -can- already mod the game) this is also possible.
I mean, it'd be a humongous amount of effort, but hey, if Stardew Valley is the current poster child labor of love project made by one dev, it'd be the perfect companion labor-of-love mod made by one modder.
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
It's not my specific need. It is an industry need.
White characters being default or normal do not encourage or cultivate a realistic environment for future modders of diverse backgrounds.
I sort of see it as pretty progressive given that it's the family has a white mom, a white son, a black dad, and a mixed daughter. As someone in a interracial relationship in real life it seemed kind of cute. It would be nice to see more black characters, but showing a family like this is pretty nice.
It's sad to see posts like this. I really don't think anyone has implied black people don't belong, but is unfortunate to know you feel that way.
I'm a minority. I'm gay, gender queer & disabled. But, I am white and was born male. I understand all too well the lack of representation. That said, I would never push for representation in an independent/small dev game unless I knew the portrayal would be fair, and most importantly done out of knowledge & respect. I believe that a poorly done representation for whatever minority, whether ethnic, gender or sexual, is far more damaging and hurtful than having none at all.
I once again stress that I feel that pushing for diversity in studios and pubs that can actually pull from a varied array of backgrounds is much better than expecting independents with no knowledge/understanding of minorities is the better way forward.
Kind of seems like a zero sum game trying to have "diversity" in your game. What's diverse for one person is hilarious non-diverse for another. Everyone claims a "right" to be represented in everything, but there's a hundred thousand other minorities besides blacks. If you nail that, then you have to nail Asians, then Hispanics, then handicap, trans, bi, gay, but then you're being too broad and have to represent individual cultures or people feel left out or like stereotypes... all in a single game, all in every game? Everything has to be homogenized to include a checklist that includes full representation?
Fuck, if I saw this kind of stuff as a game developer, I'd stick to Martians and demons.
Fuck, if I saw this kind of stuff as a game developer, I'd stick to Martians and demons.
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
I agree with you but like I said, AAA games are like Hollywood. Indie devs can make a huge impact without the bureaucracy. There are devs here on GAF. I hope they consider the sentiment of many in this thread. I don't think they'll do damage, although I agree it's possible. Seek minorities on this forum and ask for feedback. Many under represented groups would be happy to help, I'm sure.
Lanrutcon
Member
Wouldn't help. They'd still sound the sirens.
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
Frankly, if you're going to agree with that absurd extreme example, that sameness is better than the nonsense sameness we have now.
Art/creative ventures like games aren't holy or above criticism, especially when it comes to representation of certain genders/sexualities/ethnicities. Artists can make anything the way they want and people can criticize it if they want without someone like you needing to jump in to bash down all criticism as unwarranted or being all "think about the poor artist, he's just doing what he wants!" Art can be criticized about how they represent the society and if that helps the artist then be more inclusive in his future creations, that's good.
For a good example, FeministFrequency had an episode where they point out how it is a bit gross how the dev team handled women in Bioshock (naked, sliced up) and that made the people who made the game go all "huh, we didn't think it from that POV, we see your point and will think more about these things in our future creations!" Creators being ignorant of issues of representation etc. doesn't really fly in our age, when we have so much access to all kinds information & people pointing out these issues all the time on all kinds of media/venues. If thoughts/criticism like the ones in the OP it makes creators aware of their shortcomings in representing a diverse cast of characters, that's all the much better! Diversity is rarely bad (at least as long as you also avoid stereotyping different people).
And I'd say every person in the world has a moral obligation to try to be more inclusive & aware of issues that other sexualities, gender(s) & ethnicities face in the world. Developers don't live in a bubble, especially in this age of Internet & super-fast traversal of information. Even if one is just a single person from a 100% white town making a game, there's nothing wrong with pointing out that their games could be more inclusive. Of course we don't need to go overboard (i.e. "BOYCOTT THIS GAME!") or anything, but there's really no harm in pointing out that a creative person has made something that could be more inclusive. Artists can improve in these matters over time, but only if people point these things out.
EDIT: Also, if games never have black characters just because white people should be able to make games with 99,9% white people, that won't really help things change. Seeing your "own kind" represented in the media you consume can be important in motivating people to pursue such things in the future. It's not just enough to have an aim to "let's get more black & other ethnicities into game development", being more inclusive in what kind of characters these products have is one way to increase interest in other than white people pursuing the career. If it's all a white people's playground, that won't necessarily make it all that interesting a future for other ethnicities to pursue. So... really, if anything, white (straight, male) people DO need to be the most aware of representation of others in games, ESPECIALLY in this kind of situation where other ethnicities are still such a tiny minority.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
So you don't have anything interesting to say but being upset at the simple message from the op.
I don't agree.
Not everything is the same now. There are devs from all over the world. Making games that represent all kinds of cultures. Just because many of them are white, doesn't mean they are all the same.
You are free too to make your own game.
You are the judge of what is interesting?
That's very narrow minded.
GitarooMan
Member
Agree with the OP or not, the defensiveness in this thread is staggering.
……forgetit
Member
As apposed to what we have now? With everything being the same with maybe a black person thrown in there. People act like it's so hard to nail a minority character, but it's super easy. Take a character, design them as black, or Asian, or Latino. There ya go. No need to add special minority dialogue about growing up in the projects or his early days in the cartel. People aren't stereotypes, and characters don't have to be either.
And now we're on the "make your own game" shit. Some of us aren't game designers. Why is diversity the only thing that gets this when it could be applied to any complaint in any game ever? Don't like the lack of single play in SFV? Make your own game, souls too hard? Make your own game, the division dull for you? Make your own game!!!
And again, we're stenciling something that's an industry topic onto one particular example, which I maintain wasn't a very good one.
Maybe a better way to tackle this (and this is basically delving into your opinion here, so there's no wrong answer - I want to get a better sense of what you think is fair) would be, if there are 50 characters in a game, what percentage do you feel of black, asian, south east asian, middle eastern, eastern european, pacific, south african and south asian would properly represent a diverse cast without falling into a trap of a 'token ____'? What's -your- objective number of diversity? Should it differ from game to game?
Imagine you had the resources to make a Stardew Valley and current Stardew Valley didn't exist.
And before you point out the majority of games are predominantly white, yes, I am well aware of this, and yes, I -do- think of it as a cultural problem (I'm Chinese Malaysian), and at the same time I do think that every game having a go-to pie chart would lead to meta-homogenization, rather than diversity. Think of rolling two dice and always having a big and small number - that's not variety.
Deadpool_X
Banned
How many of you live in rural, farming environments? As someone who has lived in farming communities in 3 different states all across this country, I can tell you that the majority of people who have farms are Caucasian. There are very few black people in those environments. Colorado has a ton of Mexicans (from Mexico) who work on farms, but most of those people are day-laborers, and the workforce decreases significantly when ICE comes in and cleans house.
Now, this is a video game, so they can make the demographics whatever they'd like, regardless of real-world statistics.
Now, this is a video game, so they can make the demographics whatever they'd like, regardless of real-world statistics.
I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this question. The OP is clearly not happy with the ratio of 2 out of 40 characters being black (I still don't buy the argument that them being a family discounts one of them being black).
And the great thing about Stardew Valley is really anyone here has the resources to make it!
I don't think in percentages, but authenticity. If it's heartfelt percentages don't matter. Percentages are something that committees enforce. I don't feel like you can boil down creative work to percentages.
If I had the resources to make a game like Stardew Valley, racial diversity would probably not be a thing I even consider. Maybe gender diversity.
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
This is a dumb exercise and seeks a narrow, definitive answer to a broader, industry wide problem. As if there's some magic paint brush that devs should use to fix the industry wide problem of lack of diversity. I only used Stardew as a platform, as an example. I bet the dev is an awesome person and his attempts to include an interracial couple shows it. But to try to box this larger issue in by my use of Stardew is absurd.
There's a lack of diversity in gaming. Indie devs could easily implement diversity in their games and start working toward a solution with little impact on themselves.
Except when that is done, when a thread is started about the lack of diversity among triple A devs, pubs, and their games, we get very similar thread to this one plus the good old excuse of "it just makes fiscal sense to target white guys". Hell, you can find a similar discussion in threads about create-a-character options. So don't be sad at my post acknowledging the attitudes towards diversity demonstrated here be sad at the actual state of affairs. No one fucking cares about diversity. The people that's dogpilling on OP already have a "fuck you I got mines" and "why don't you make your own games" mentality.
So you admit that Stardew isn't a very good example of what you're trying to showcase?
Golly, the defences against OP here.... It must be nice that light-skinned people don't have to fight at ALL to be represented. Must suck when darker skinned peoples must be "forced in" for "diversities sake"; how dare they.
If you convinced yourself that everyone contesting the OP is white... I don't know what to tell you. It's not a matter of people being dismissive because they're white skinned. I'm not, and several others have already identified their ethnicity.
Correct, so we actually do agree then, if you take the first part of the post you quoted into account. This was partially in response to your comment on why modding on this particular game still wouldn't set an ideal precedent. If you read further back, I was replying specifically to a comment about modding this particular game. I don't really think it's a dumb exercise though.
Just to play ball and answer my own question, I was actually pleasantly surprised when I discovered that
1) The first female character you meet (Robin) isn't a romance option, which already set a precedent that the that the game wasn't simply just an assorted chocolate box of waifu and husbandos just waiting to fall head over heels for you because you shove diamonds and salads down their throat (although that's definitely a part of the game's appeal, and ConcernedApe -is- working on post-marriage content)
2) That same first female character is in a interracial relationship.
Those two in mind, I find it really hard to call the game stereotypical as far as representation goes. Though I'd have liked to see one or two more blatantly non-caucasian characters (edit: not necessarily Malaysian Chinese or even asian), but overall, I don't think it bothers me. Not in this game, at least.
(As an aside I'm almost used to getting stares being quite possibly the first asian certain groups of people see when I'm in some parts of southern USA. Was laughing to myself over being thankful art didn't imitate life in that regard in this game)
I don't think I've ever had a game where the character really represented "me".
But I guess I should be happy cause they are at least white?
There is plenty of people that defend the developers vision in those instances as well actually.
People just say, don't play it if you don't like it.
But I guess I should be happy cause they are at least white?
There is plenty of people that defend the developers vision in those instances as well actually.
People just say, don't play it if you don't like it.
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
Lots of fallacies thrown around.
Minorities aren't DEMANDING to make games or change them to fill ours needs of representation just because we want to, they are saying that they exists and media producers should take them into account as well.
This is not GAMING only, this is to all entertainment media. The majority shouldn't feel threatened because most media already panders to them, not to us.
Minorities aren't DEMANDING to make games or change them to fill ours needs of representation just because we want to, they are saying that they exists and media producers should take them into account as well.
This is not GAMING only, this is to all entertainment media. The majority shouldn't feel threatened because most media already panders to them, not to us.
Camp Freddie
Member
I feel sorry for the OP at this point. I really don't get the hostility people are sending his way.
He posts a polite message, not blaming the dev or caling him racist. Just saying that the single black and single half-black character stand out when every other character is white.
The OP even says that this is probably just unconcious bias and that it's merely a thing that developers should think about more carefully in future.
Suddenly, everyone is reacting as if he accused all Devs of being racist scum unless they create a perfectly equal mix of all known races. Else they're acting as if Stardew valley is based on the demographics of a real farming hamlet explicitly set in rural north America.
Diversity is good. I don't really care what race a character is, but if I played a game where there were 50 black people and only one white guy (and his half-white daughter) then it would stick out and seem weird.
He posts a polite message, not blaming the dev or caling him racist. Just saying that the single black and single half-black character stand out when every other character is white.
The OP even says that this is probably just unconcious bias and that it's merely a thing that developers should think about more carefully in future.
Suddenly, everyone is reacting as if he accused all Devs of being racist scum unless they create a perfectly equal mix of all known races. Else they're acting as if Stardew valley is based on the demographics of a real farming hamlet explicitly set in rural north America.
Diversity is good. I don't really care what race a character is, but if I played a game where there were 50 black people and only one white guy (and his half-white daughter) then it would stick out and seem weird.
Click bait is not synonymous with 'I disagree', you know.
Also, there is a single other character, not a few.
OP, I noticed it too.
On the positive side I think the game has some great character creation options in the skin tones though a few more hair options would be appreciated.
In the end, I don't think it was intended to be malicious and I'm still able to enjoy the game. Doesn't mean the game can't have problems, even problems by omission.
……forgetit
Member
And it's a dumb defense. By just saying that it shuts down all critique. Basically implying that the game is above being called out on it's issues, which no form of media is.
Talk to him about that, I was the only black guy in my school's AP program back in highschool, and it was awful. I certainly felt like a token and it wreaked by self esteem.
UncleSporky
Member
Actually the question does make me curious.
How many black people would've needed to be in Stardew Valley before it wouldn't have warranted a thread?
If it were at 5 of 40 characters, would this thread not need to have been created?
"Developers' vision" can be flawed/lacking. It's not always even a conscious decision to make games so white (so it's not some Grand Vision that is beyond criticism or something that couldn't have been completely different), in which case it's all the more important to point out the shortcomings in representation. At that point it simply isn't about some "developer's vision" of having the world be that way, he just made it that way because it's "normal" for him. And at that point, there's no harm done pointing it out to them that their worldview could use a bit more diversity.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Always the same dumb/uninteresting defense. You would think people would know by now.
I think that's fallacious; the point is not to represent every culture (because yes, there are a ridiculous amount of minutae if you go down that path); the point is for the representation that does exist feels like it goes beyond the bounds of what the game represents; there may be no Hispanics in the game, but there's enough diversity elsewhere that the player feels that if they could just travel to the next village they'll probably encounter one at some point.
Bronetta
Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
Wouldn't pointing that out be pretty awkward? I greet and talk to him the same as everyone else.
Sure, but how far should we go to force "our normal" on someone elses normal?
It's very tricky.
I'd make a bigger point of misrepresentation of minorities rather then exclusion. A much more valid argument.
Ironically, if this quesiton were answered, you'd be setting everyone up with a new token quota target. Probably not the question that needs answering.
recursive
Member
Can you further expand on the tremendous impact? I'd like to understand this viewpoint.
There's Tropes Against Women episode ("Ms Male Character") which touches on the issue of female cast members who - for want of a better way of putting it - aren't female characters - they're just fundamentally indistinguishable from male characters albeit with visual differences telling the player they're female.
Isn't this what you're suggesting, except with it being race rather than gender?
(But then this goes into its own awkward directions regarding how much of people's gender and racial identity is defined by the real world and wouldn't make reasonable sense in a fantasy world)
ScaryShark
Banned
I don't know how a fictional place can be criticized for a lack of diversity.
Personally, I like big games to have a range of people and sexes from a variety of backgrounds but I don't think it makes much sense to demand that of something that was a person's invented setting.
Personally, I like big games to have a range of people and sexes from a variety of backgrounds but I don't think it makes much sense to demand that of something that was a person's invented setting.
……forgetit
Member
Well race has little to do with a person's personality. Gender is different all together. Sure there can be a person who's race is a big factor in their personality, but usually where and how you spent your formative years has a bigger effect. Me and a friend of mine just had a conversation last week actually about how our races don't define us and how we basically have the same personality, just different skin colors.
Actually, that's why I specifically said any answers to the question should be construed as opinion, rather than suggestions for a solution. There's no real wrong answer here, and it's still an interesting (well, in my opinion) mental exercise to at least quantify something that's being discussed with broad strokes. Again, for one very specific example that's not to be confused with the larger industry problem.
edit:
I feel this gravitates somewhat towards the right 'answer', fwiw.
There's numerous studies on this. Unfortunately I won't be able to point you in that direction myself but you can google.
I feel the same. That's why mostly white characters in games do so little for me, because I don't identify with their skin colour, but their personality, actions and background. Or rather don't identify.
……forgetit
Member
I mean there is a difference their, race does not make much of a difference for a specific character, but it can make a difference for the audience playing the game. Not having any character that looks like them can be a detriment to minority children growing up. Though you may have brought it up already what race are you anyway?;
Ironically a rural American city is where diversity makes the most sense. I grew up in one and only half the people their were white, tops. The rest were majority black and Hispanic with a few Asians, Indians and Pakistani people mixed in.
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