Who was the guy who gave Lex that stuff anyway? We know Elastigirl was a senator, but the Jolly Rancher guy?
Batman v Superman Spoiler Thread: Don't believe everything you read, Son
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Who was the guy who gave Lex that stuff anyway? We know Elastigirl was a senator, but the Jolly Rancher guy?
Picture? Only picture of importance I can recall is the old one that Bruce found from 1918 and it was him realising that the female in it surrounded by others was the same woman he saw previously. He then sent it onto her later asking who she is, being stunned that she seemed to be alive back then as well.
She is Wonder Woman, and is 5000 years old.
Just_myles
Member
Salamando said:
Yeah it was him. I don't know who he really way. How we was able to give Lex an all access pass is beyond me. What does it matter though, the guy ended up blowing up.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Just watched it. I saw the RT score and the scorn from fans but I honestly didn't see it. I like this portrayal of the DC Universe. Sure, there are many editing problems but the way the characters are tackled from a government, social, and personal perspective are great. You rarely see this and when it's done it's all, "this property is mine" and the protagonist laughs his way through, sure, that's good too, but there's something endearing about the way it's handled. If Superman did exist he probably wouldn't be an ideal boyscout, probably more close to this or more violent.
Ben Affleck rips the mantle from Micheal Keaton. Too good. The warehouse fight scene is the best melee fight in any super hero movie so far. Such power.
By the way, the hearing scene is way overblown in reviews. He does react just not quick enough. He doesn't sit there as people die, they were already dead.
Ben Affleck rips the mantle from Micheal Keaton. Too good. The warehouse fight scene is the best melee fight in any super hero movie so far. Such power.
By the way, the hearing scene is way overblown in reviews. He does react just not quick enough. He doesn't sit there as people die, they were already dead.
OmegaSmash
Member
2.5 out of 5 when I got out of the theater, 3/5 now that I've had some time to think about it. As dumb as I still think Lex's casting was, the stuff he pulled off was effective in making him an intimidating son of a bitch. And the whole "same mother's name ends the fight" could've probably been shown in a better way why it was significant.
^yeah, the hearing scene was fine because Superman did hear the bomb be armed, he was distracted. The fact that he felt bad over not doing anything is a massive improvement over him not caring that Metropolis was half leveled.
^yeah, the hearing scene was fine because Superman did hear the bomb be armed, he was distracted. The fact that he felt bad over not doing anything is a massive improvement over him not caring that Metropolis was half leveled.
ryutaro's mama
Member
They rebuilt Metropolis in 18 months complete with a memorial for the dead...for Doomsday to make use of the plaques to the fallen victims...to beat Superman with.
Amazing.
Amazing.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Did anyone else think it was odd that Superman was all defensive over not killing those dudes in Africa when he put the leader through like 4 walls going 200 miles per hour?
ryutaro's mama
Member
It's just kinda weak that his sole role was to prevent the inevitable plothole of "How did Lex have unfettered access to this giant government site?"
At least this time they made sure to fight at night, when downtown was mostly empty! Or in the uninhabited island. Or the docks, which were also free of people (aside from the goons Batman knocked out 20 minutes earlier).
ambar_hitman
Member
I hope we get a mix of Injustice and Flashpoint storyline for the Justice League movies.
However judging by the critic and non-comic reading audience reactions, I don't think they are ready for this. People are used to simpler Marvel stuff.
However judging by the critic and non-comic reading audience reactions, I don't think they are ready for this. People are used to simpler Marvel stuff.
Mr. PlayStation
Member
In the process of world building the DCU from Man of Steel, was it established that Batman won't mind shooting and killing foe? I am sure he killed a dozen or more while he was in the Batwing and the Batmobile. I am totally ok with this newer mythology around Batman merged with the myth that we all know of
Okay, I just saw it. And....well....
First, let me say that one positive thing that came out of RT's score is that my expectations were set so absymally low that I probably enjoyed it more than if I went in blind. There were a handful of parts that I really really liked, a lot of stuff I didn't, but I don't want to analyze the movie bit to bit right now. It's late and honestly, I feel this is going to be buried in the landslide of people posting their own opinions. So I want to talk about the one thing I think is really important, and why I think the review scores are so low.
The basic thesis of this movie is fear and paranoia. When I'm thinking back on the movie, it's the motivation behind every active character's plotting. Well, mostly. Lex's motivation is just a really stupid hate fest, but I guess you could interpret that as a different kind of fear. But Batman is the star of the show, and he doesn't really have a strong reason to want to fight superman in the end. He's just afraid of Superman. He has nightmares about possible futures (which are implied to be alternate earths or something), and....shit, it really is as simple as that. It's present in the general populous as well of course. People have the same general fear. Superman is powerful, therefore must be evil somehow. They launch a nuke at Superman first chance they fucking get.
And it's all just so unbelievably stupid. Luthor's hate and Batman's fear of Superman stems from the idea that he is god, and God can't be good and all powerful, so Superman must be evil! And honestly, Superman doesn't communicate anything at all. He goes around saving people, but doesn't seem to talk to them, implying that community hearing is the first time he planned to actually speak to them, tell him what he's all about. Which makes the first hour of the movie really draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag it's ass. It's literally all build up with pretty much no action beats that advance the plot (I don't count Batman's hallucinations as such), which all could have been suberfuged by Superman coming down and just explaining his position, why he does what he does....it's so bizarre. I don't get the impression that he wants people to associate him with God, but he does literally nothing to discourage that association, which lead to the fighting events of the movie.
And I have to take a moment to point out what a terrible batman Batfleck is. I don't mean in terms of acting, because Affleck is a skilled actor and he brings it to the table. I also feel that this will be a controversial position since I've seen a lot of people praising him as the highlight of the movie. And while I certainly don't like how he kills people, I'm ultimately no comic book purist and don't believe there is any 'core' to these characters a writer can adhere to and I take the characters as they come on their own.
And what this Batman is is a fucking idiot manchild. I already mentioned how stupid he is for how he lets his fear control him, but I don't think I made it clear. He comes across as a school yard bully, both in mannerisms and intelligence. It comes out in his fight the clearest. His goal in that fight is to kill superman. But he doesn't do that. He had his chance as soon as he first hit Superman with the gas. If this was really about just removing a threat to humanity, Batman should have stabbed him in the face right then and there, ended it as quickly as possible. But instead, he goes out of his way to shit talk him, to slowly beat him to maximize his pain and humiliation as much as possible. One scene I especially noted is the first time Superman regained his strength, as Batman was punching him. He noticed that his hits were having less and less effect until he couldn't hit him at all, and he immediately backed off, nervous and trembling. He looked so scared, so fucking cowardly because now he couldn't lord his power over Superman. I mean, tactically, it'd be the smart thing to do since he can't hurt him without the Kryptonite gas, but the way he does it was exactly like a bully realized his victim wasn't powerless anymore. And then once he does hit him with the gas again, he again sloooooooooowly takes him to where he has the knife hidden where he plans on killing him.
And then....Superman blurts out his mom's name, and he is just has this shocked ass look as he puts the pieces together. "Martha? My mom's name is Martha...and his mom's name is Martha....holy shit, he has a mom. The thing I am about to kill has a mother? Just like mine? He's...he's like a person or soemthing!" That was by far the lowest point of the movie for me.
Like I said, I am no comic book purist by any stretch of the imagination. But what in the fucking hell is this shit? Batman is a idiot schoolyard bully. I know that Zack Snyder delivers on adolescent male power fantasies, but this is beyond anything I expected and...how do I explain this? I don't want to say "i can't accept this" but it's the only phrase that comes to mind. Because insofar that Batman is a paranoid idiot thug, he's written....well enough, lets say. But he's not the character I want to see batman as. It's the worst incarnation of Batman you can make, no matter how good the writing is. Even if he was an original character, I'd think very low of this kind of person, who lets his fear control him to violence that harms others, and then is in shock and awe that the people he's hurting are actual fucking people. What a fucking moron. What a fucking shithead. Who looks at this character and thinks that this is a hero? I know Zack Snyder is a violence fetishist, but this is ridiculous. He seems to idealize how much pain and misery a man can cause another (atleast in the fictional context), and sees that as the ideal action a hero can do.
But I look at his batman and I'm just disgusted with his work. And I think many people are too. This film is stupid on many levels, but you know what, it's also good on a few of them. Wonder woman was great to watch, and the 3 of them getting together was legitimately hype. The action choreography is really great, and there's plenty of spectacle. It even improved on what I complained about in MoS and improved on aligning the fighting style to the characters. And I didn't even mind Jesse Eisenburg's version of Lex Luthor as much, even if I think he's clearly derivative of Heath Ledger's Joker. It's definitely an improvement on MoS. It's a better made film.
So why the negative feedback? Because I think people agree, even if they don't voice it in the same way. This film is nasty. It's toxic. Batman is not a hero that any of us want to see, even if he's well written in the context of the movie or well acted or well realized by the direction of the film. Superman's major act of heroism here leads to his death. The citizens of the world are fearful and paranoid and hateful. Even Wonder Woman is in hiding because she resents the world of man, which is hostile towards her. This film is oppressively negative, and ending on a heroic note where batman says "We need to be better" doesn't erase the two hours of toxic vibes of humanity we got before. It's a film that makes you feel bad, and you walk out thinking how shitty the world that Batman and Superman inhabit is.
I don't want Snyder's superhero universe. It's too repulsive.
First, let me say that one positive thing that came out of RT's score is that my expectations were set so absymally low that I probably enjoyed it more than if I went in blind. There were a handful of parts that I really really liked, a lot of stuff I didn't, but I don't want to analyze the movie bit to bit right now. It's late and honestly, I feel this is going to be buried in the landslide of people posting their own opinions. So I want to talk about the one thing I think is really important, and why I think the review scores are so low.
The basic thesis of this movie is fear and paranoia. When I'm thinking back on the movie, it's the motivation behind every active character's plotting. Well, mostly. Lex's motivation is just a really stupid hate fest, but I guess you could interpret that as a different kind of fear. But Batman is the star of the show, and he doesn't really have a strong reason to want to fight superman in the end. He's just afraid of Superman. He has nightmares about possible futures (which are implied to be alternate earths or something), and....shit, it really is as simple as that. It's present in the general populous as well of course. People have the same general fear. Superman is powerful, therefore must be evil somehow. They launch a nuke at Superman first chance they fucking get.
And it's all just so unbelievably stupid. Luthor's hate and Batman's fear of Superman stems from the idea that he is god, and God can't be good and all powerful, so Superman must be evil! And honestly, Superman doesn't communicate anything at all. He goes around saving people, but doesn't seem to talk to them, implying that community hearing is the first time he planned to actually speak to them, tell him what he's all about. Which makes the first hour of the movie really draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag it's ass. It's literally all build up with pretty much no action beats that advance the plot (I don't count Batman's hallucinations as such), which all could have been suberfuged by Superman coming down and just explaining his position, why he does what he does....it's so bizarre. I don't get the impression that he wants people to associate him with God, but he does literally nothing to discourage that association, which lead to the fighting events of the movie.
And I have to take a moment to point out what a terrible batman Batfleck is. I don't mean in terms of acting, because Affleck is a skilled actor and he brings it to the table. I also feel that this will be a controversial position since I've seen a lot of people praising him as the highlight of the movie. And while I certainly don't like how he kills people, I'm ultimately no comic book purist and don't believe there is any 'core' to these characters a writer can adhere to and I take the characters as they come on their own.
And what this Batman is is a fucking idiot manchild. I already mentioned how stupid he is for how he lets his fear control him, but I don't think I made it clear. He comes across as a school yard bully, both in mannerisms and intelligence. It comes out in his fight the clearest. His goal in that fight is to kill superman. But he doesn't do that. He had his chance as soon as he first hit Superman with the gas. If this was really about just removing a threat to humanity, Batman should have stabbed him in the face right then and there, ended it as quickly as possible. But instead, he goes out of his way to shit talk him, to slowly beat him to maximize his pain and humiliation as much as possible. One scene I especially noted is the first time Superman regained his strength, as Batman was punching him. He noticed that his hits were having less and less effect until he couldn't hit him at all, and he immediately backed off, nervous and trembling. He looked so scared, so fucking cowardly because now he couldn't lord his power over Superman. I mean, tactically, it'd be the smart thing to do since he can't hurt him without the Kryptonite gas, but the way he does it was exactly like a bully realized his victim wasn't powerless anymore. And then once he does hit him with the gas again, he again sloooooooooowly takes him to where he has the knife hidden where he plans on killing him.
And then....Superman blurts out his mom's name, and he is just has this shocked ass look as he puts the pieces together. "Martha? My mom's name is Martha...and his mom's name is Martha....holy shit, he has a mom. The thing I am about to kill has a mother? Just like mine? He's...he's like a person or soemthing!" That was by far the lowest point of the movie for me.
Like I said, I am no comic book purist by any stretch of the imagination. But what in the fucking hell is this shit? Batman is a idiot schoolyard bully. I know that Zack Snyder delivers on adolescent male power fantasies, but this is beyond anything I expected and...how do I explain this? I don't want to say "i can't accept this" but it's the only phrase that comes to mind. Because insofar that Batman is a paranoid idiot thug, he's written....well enough, lets say. But he's not the character I want to see batman as. It's the worst incarnation of Batman you can make, no matter how good the writing is. Even if he was an original character, I'd think very low of this kind of person, who lets his fear control him to violence that harms others, and then is in shock and awe that the people he's hurting are actual fucking people. What a fucking moron. What a fucking shithead. Who looks at this character and thinks that this is a hero? I know Zack Snyder is a violence fetishist, but this is ridiculous. He seems to idealize how much pain and misery a man can cause another (atleast in the fictional context), and sees that as the ideal action a hero can do.
But I look at his batman and I'm just disgusted with his work. And I think many people are too. This film is stupid on many levels, but you know what, it's also good on a few of them. Wonder woman was great to watch, and the 3 of them getting together was legitimately hype. The action choreography is really great, and there's plenty of spectacle. It even improved on what I complained about in MoS and improved on aligning the fighting style to the characters. And I didn't even mind Jesse Eisenburg's version of Lex Luthor as much, even if I think he's clearly derivative of Heath Ledger's Joker. It's definitely an improvement on MoS. It's a better made film.
So why the negative feedback? Because I think people agree, even if they don't voice it in the same way. This film is nasty. It's toxic. Batman is not a hero that any of us want to see, even if he's well written in the context of the movie or well acted or well realized by the direction of the film. Superman's major act of heroism here leads to his death. The citizens of the world are fearful and paranoid and hateful. Even Wonder Woman is in hiding because she resents the world of man, which is hostile towards her. This film is oppressively negative, and ending on a heroic note where batman says "We need to be better" doesn't erase the two hours of toxic vibes of humanity we got before. It's a film that makes you feel bad, and you walk out thinking how shitty the world that Batman and Superman inhabit is.
I don't want Snyder's superhero universe. It's too repulsive.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
I didn't like Wonder Woman in this movie. She was there to set up the Justice League but her fighting abilities were terrible. I think this comes down to all the action outside of Batman being complete meh.
What did he mean by this?
Member
Naw she could have killed Doomsday herself probably if she chopped his head lol
Supes was just so desperate to commit a heroic suicide, the nuke didnt do the job for him
ryutaro's mama
Member
LOL.
Gotham is basically NY. Where in the blue hell would there be a land mass that large, completely uninhabited? I just rolled my eyes every time they fell over themselves to say how uninhabited a locale was.
Also, Doomsday was just hanging out on that island. Batmang could have just flown to Gotham, got the spear and came back before Doomsday even knew what was happening.
This is what happens when your directer bases his superhero opinions on Frank Miller.
Honestly, I agree. But I thought it was better than it could have been, considering how utterly repulsive Frank Miller is and how much my expectations were lowered.
One day I we will get a good Batman on screen. But today is not that day.
Midtown NYC is so much of a ghost town at night that I feel uncomfortable and scared walking there. I won't see a single person for a whole block. So it's really not that far fetched.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
You sound angry the movie did things people wanted. Damned if you do damned if you don't.
No. The very last scene though could have easily functioned as one ala Marvel but it's in the movie proper.
It was written in such a sloppy, unnatural way. You could clearly tell they were trying to tell the audience "guys this is totally not like the end of MoS again!"
Superman was Dr. Manhattan Jr. and Lex felt like an undisciplined Adrian Veidt.
ambar_hitman
Member
Loved this dialogue:
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Maybe, but most people aren't going to assume that. If these nitpicks are the issues needed to be written or vocalized then you probably don't understand the writing/editing issues with the movie.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Superman could've literally flown Doomsday to a desert. He flew him into space.
Having the showdown happen in the middle of a city, the docks and a "uninhabited island" that they had to hit us over the head to say no one was there...was corny.
If there was VO in Man Of Steel that the city was empty, would anyone have bought it? Nope.
Bluekaveli
Member
So to you all who've seen it, I'm skimming over posts to just see how you all felt without getting spoiled. Is it more of a 3/5 than what critics are suggesting?
I cut for length, but I pretty much agree with you about Batman. Superman was a better character in this context despite Snyder apparently wanting to villainize him. Batman's justification felt so contrived -- "some people died while Superman was saving BASICALLY THE ENTIRE PLANET. What next? Superman might suddenly decide to kill millions on purpose!"
And in the fight, they even have Batman refuse to listen to any explanation whatsoever, just attacking and interrupting Clark as much as possible. What's that? He's refusing to use his heat vision or super speed to attack you, and he's trying to say something? Must be a trick, activate all the traps.
And that's a good point, he also looks afraid once Superman starts to regain strength again.
And then in the end, Batman who's supposed to be prepared and to research everyone, repeatedly goes WHO IS MARTHA, ANSWER ME WHILE I'M CRUSHING YOUR THROAT and finally Lois Lane has to jump in and basically say "Hey moron, it's his [adopted] mother".
Well, he was working with source material that was guiding him on how to do it right.
The thing that I feel people miss about watchmen, and indeed all truly cynical works, is that they are often a celebration of humanity as much as a criticism of it. It's because the truly cruel works recognize the value of human life that they can believably convey the magnitude of it's loss.
There is a reason in Watchmen that we get entire chapters of Rorschoch battling to kill his therapists optimism, and why he ultimately fails to do so. There is a reason that for all of the Comedian's monstrosity, he ended his life as a guy who wants to connect with his daughter, bawling over the horror of the plan he discovered. The reason it's so terrible that evil prevails is that there IS light in the world, and it's been snuffed out.
That's just not what Snyder is doing here. And I barely remember how he did it in Watchmen the movie. I mostly remember the comic and wasn't really interested in an adaptation despite seeing it once or twice. But what Snyder did here is not what watchmen did.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Thanks for that in-depth review and rebuttal of everyone's criticisms, dude.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Space is the better option. He only failed because murica nuked them, he was actually punching him off Earth with great success. You're not making good cricisms, meng.
Call it corny, still poor criticism.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Calling out the ridiculousness of voice telling you a major city is deserted is poor criticism.
Yep, you sure told me.
They could have done anything they wanted. Taken the fight anywhere, narratively speaking. They chose an convienently string of uninhabited locations.
It's still far less people than what you'd get during the day when the office buildings and stores are full. *Shrugs* I'm okay with waving it away as it being a comic book movie with somewhat fuzzy logic. I vastly prefer that to having a whole neighborhood full of people die every time there's gonna be a big fight scene.
bananafactory
Banned
what the fuck was with the dream sequence then a dude coming through the screen to tell Bruce Lois Lane is the key
the key to what?
the key to what?
Subpar Spatula
Banned
City wasn't deserted. When was that said? The said areas were empty but not the entire city. Docks were empty so was the island. You cray.
Convenient is your word but damned if you do damned if you don't. Your idea sounds even worse than the movies. Even though I don't like Zack as a director or find his input all that great, at least his idea isn't, "fly Doomsday into the desert". Your idea isn't good because it keeps the dude on Earth, if you're superman or a super hero the best thing possibly is punching it into space... so what downside is there to doing that?
You have the most bizarre nitpicks, like truly bizarre and you give even worse solutions.
The movie has very obvious editing and problems of omission. The scene is most likely prefaced with something else that syncs Bruce up with the "dream" in some way. It's similar to why Lex knows about Darkseid or wants Superman and Batman to fight. These may be answered in the extended version but there's big chunks of movie that seem to either not be filmed or not included. It's this movie's biggest problem.
ambar_hitman
Member
1. That wasn't entirely a dream sequence. It was a nod to Injustice Storyline. In fact, the entire "dream sequence" was probably a future vision OR an alternate universe, where Superman becomes a tyrant after Lois is killed by Joker, and Superman blames Batman for it because he never killed Joker when he had a chance. Since they showed Parademons working with Superman's forces, it seems it was kind of a vision.
2. That guy warning Bruce, was actually Flash (Ezra Miller), from the future using Speedforce. It seems he went back too far by mistake i.e. before formation of Justice League, and hence Bruce doesn't know him. That's why he says: "Too soon Bruce, too soon?" Also he says Lois is the key, again the nod to point 1
I think the movie was more so angsty and gloomy than 'repulsive'. Superman is dealing with a lot of issues about humanity trusting him, and his burden- I liked that shot of him dragging the sunken tanker like it's his punishment. Batman is in a bad place, and the extra violence from him seems to be coming from a place of not giving a shit anymore. Despite that, I think the movie ended with positivity.
They could've solved it pretty easily too. Don't mention the downtown is less populated, just show Superman taking Doomsday to space. Have the newsman comment that Supes is taking the monster away to further minimize casualties. Follow that with the Nuke blowing Doomsday well clear of both towns.
bananafactory
Banned
How the hell is anyone supposed to take away ANY of this stuff from that?
The key to preventing that dystopia from happening.
And it was the Flash going back in time to warn Bruce that not letting Lois die is the key to not having the future come to pass.
Presumably of course.
It's set up for Justice League. This is generally stuff that happens in comic books and the animated movies already.
I agree that it shouldn't have been in the movie to begin with. It bloats an already bloated movie.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Dude, if the fight is gonna happen, on Earth, as it did, ultimately, where would the most ideal location be? In the middle of a city or in a desert? Keeping it in space is irrelevant since the script called for the fight to return to Earth.
I mean, fuck, the Dragon Ball Z fights ( for the most part) happen in the middle of nowhere. Massive destruction, low body count.
Especially when there was just an otherworldly fight in that region just EIGHTEEN MONTHS AGO. I have no idea why you are defending this fuckery so much. It was clown shoes but I guess you loved it.
To each their own.
ambar_hitman
Member
Yeah, the movie is tough on non-comic book fans. I enjoyed it, and had to explain it to everyone.
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