Anything to say about the subject at hand or do you plan to continue derailing the thread into a GG thing ?
Atlus handling the western localization of Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE
- Thread starter Ridley327
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Anything to say about the subject at hand or do you plan to continue derailing the thread into a GG thing ?
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
It's irrelevant, stop derailing.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
Honestly what makes 1 tough for me is that while I get people have principles, I just think it's a shame people will miss out on a game they might enjoy due to something relatively minor in the long-run. If they want to skip it because of the cut DLC or whatever then yeah, I can see that. I'm just not sure about posters being the hill to die on but eh. It's not my loss so not my concern, I guess.
Never played Fatal Frame V to be honest so I can't speak for it. What was the issue of that again? Was it some optional swimsuits or something?
Who are you arguing for/against? In those threads I'm seeing plenty of people either annoyed that the change affects all regions, or okay with it because they're personally uncomfortable with gory stuff. Those are both valid reactions to have in a case like that for different reasons.
Sparrowhawk
Member
I really wish they wouldn't change anything, but I'll still buy and enjoy the game.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I'm discussing the wider issues of the localization criticisms, which includes GG. I discussed the fact that this game will probably reignite the harassment campaigns, and when the issue came up of why people object to removal of sexual elements more than violent elements, I noted that the recent kerfuffles were absolutely co-opted by GG and thus became more visible, while GG did not exist in the case of the example offered.
Okay, let's talk more about The Last of Us then
Ignore GG, the point is that the conversation about censorship in 2014 is different than in 2016. You may have a point, but that example does not make that point.
those people were able to have a valid conversation to arrive at their valid reactions because there wasn't a small snark army jumping in at the chance to derail the discussion with a stupid semantic argument, is his point, i think.
just picture how that thread would have gone if the sixth, seventh and tenth posts were "lol this isnt censorship look at a dictionary nerds"
I'll quote myself for the new page, since I think the changes here are something NoA in general seem to not like and have done it in the past. I wonder what the reason for it is, though.
I wouldn't be surprised if the changes were similar, as well, to how they altered Fatal Frame. The implication remains but the associated imagery is toned down. It seems, in general, that NoA is afraid of "explicit imagery" but do not care about implicit tone or underlying currents.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
It is okay to be uncomfortable with those things, as it is to be with the subject matter of this game. I'm pointing out how there's a double standard when it comes to what is considered localisation and what is considered censorship and with changes like these there's usually a semantic debate regarding the terminology distracting from the subject matter that doesn't happen in regards to lavishly produced violence, apparently.
This.
kunonabi
Member
The optional swimsuit is actually worn by one of the characters in a flashback during the main story. It's actually a really unsettling scene that plays into the character's state of mind and loses a lot of the impact by just keeping her in normal attire.
phoenix296
Member
This topic is about problems with localization about a particular game. Coming in and stating GG has problems with localization as well is all fine and good but what does it have to do with the topic at hand? If you want to talk about GG harassment there are plenty of other places but in this thread it's little more than a factoid.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
I think the key thing is that violence in games is straight-up illegal in Germany.
Meanwhile sexuality is not illegal but society is moving to a point where we're trying to acknowledge the difference between empowered sexuality and objectified sexuality, and the latter is becoming more frowned upon.
The Last of Us's case is also different because the German law forced all European countries to be the same, even though the laws are very different.
Can you say there's a double standard? I suppose you can, but that's because the context is different. Agree with it or not but no two issues are truly the same. They're both societal but one actually has legal implications.
I would argue that this game's case, and the German version of TLOU are localization, but the rest of Europe getting the same changes as Germany in TLOU would be censorship since the change is irrelevant to their legal standards and enforced by a board that shouldn't matter to their country.
Regardless, it's all just semantics and these two cases are very different because of their context.
I see. So, if I'm understanding this right:
1 - the character wears the swimsuit during this flashback
2 - you can also wear the swimsuit during normal gameplay
But both cases were changed in the west.
And is part of the concern also that the characters are underage?
I think given the context it is a grey situation, but the story case seems like it was deliberately meant to create an uncomfortable atmosphere so that is one that a case could be made for. But at the same time in the gameplay context I'm not chuffed by its removal just because things tend to get murkier (optional, but why is it playable - to titillate or to create discomfort? is it right to control an underage character in skimpy attire?). I guess that's a different subject though.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I'm expressing my worries about what could potentially happen at this game's launch, though perhaps my original post focused too much on bluntness/snark than on actually contributing to the thread.
They did a similar change in Fatal Frame with a very similar flashback with one of the girl being exploited in a modeling shoot and it was used in very much the same way to speak on her mental state and past scars. Actually its basically the exact same plot point between the two games. And in as of so far the changes we've seen are... the same as how they changed FF in said scenario.
The way they edited it in Fatal Frame was to change her clothes during it to be less revealing and explicit but the implication was left as it was. One could say that the impact was lessened, though I'd say it was all in all the same end result just a variation in presentation with the localized version being, rather obviously, easier to swallow. I can't say I felt anything was lost in my play through of FF but I could see how the alterations could, for some, spoil the impact of the scene.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
It's not. You're excluding the parts about glorification and rendering them harmless, and completely ignoring how censorship of violence here (I am German) has changed over the last decade, with no changes to these clauses in the Grundgesetz whatsoever. Do you really think Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain or even Wolfenstein: The New Order which has had its violence unaltered but only fascist symbols removed were released here in violation of our constitution? What about Resident Evil 4 which has had its censorship removed due to protests from German customers? Did that violate that one bit you're selectively interpreting too?
Localisation and censorship don't mutually exclude each other. Again, trying to find a clear-cut distinction is pointless.
kunonabi
Member
Pretty much.
I can understand the age being an issue and could deal with her being aged up. It's not ideal but it is understandable. I don't like losing the costumes but I typically don't use those kind of outfits in horror games so it isn't a dealbreaker by itself for me personally and they did at least replace them. To be fair everything about Fatal Frame V's western rollout was a mess.
Hum? I thought that was actually a pretty good idea for such a tiny franchise. Though I have no idea if the free-to-start ended up working in their favor or against it given the rather... poor quality of the game mechanically.
Eolz
Member
Read the thread.
Assets, costumes, gameplay content removed, and plot points possibly changed as well.
This.
But is it happening now?
Not that I know of, unlike the localization issues being discovered at PAX and elsewhere lately.
Yeah, it's basically losing a lot of the subtext with this kind of change.
That said, the plot wasn't changed in FF, so I guess they're going a step further here, which is a shame.
As you said in your previous post, this really seems to be linked to swimsuits and gravure, which is really weird.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
Well, forgive me for misinterpreting based on what I'm given as someone who isn't an expert on the situation.
Anyway the point is, it's all semantics. The Last of Us's case is a very different case from this game's, so I'm not sure why it needs to be brought up really.
Hmm, I see. I obviously wouldn't know if I don't play it, but since Fatal Frame is a horror game rather than a lighthearted JRPG I can at least get a clearer idea of the confusion - since it sounds like that element of discomfort is more central than the posters.
Yeah, no worries, I get where you're coming from on the Fatal Frame instance at least. For me I guess it comes down to:
- Story/gameplay stuff being changed = Not so good
- Cosmetic/optional stuff being changed = Doesn't matter so much
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Not sure about this. As I remember the kerfuffle, the assumption that these changes were made to comply with the USK wasn't really confirmed, just a logical conclusion most people jumped to (and one I'm actually inclined to agree with even though I've seen much more violent games get released unaltered here.) This isn't too different from the people assuming the changes in here are done to get a lower ESRB rating, which we also have no confirmation for and regardless of that claim's veracity, we are yet again entangled in a semantic debate.
Though to be fair, the "we" here isn't about you specifically since you are discussing the actual subject matter at hand alongside
I realized, being someone who fluently speaks Japanese, will make playing this game harder for me than i thought. If they do major changes to the story/plot, anytime they say something in japanese will be entirely different to what's being displayed in text. I may be overthinking it, but it will be a bother if true.
phoenix296
Member
I have no doubt in my mind that it will happen. But I also think this game is so niche that it won't even hit GG's radar. lol
Flame Lord
Member
I don't even slightly get these changes. You have here a Wii U game (already niche) so niche that it even bombed in Japan, you don't dub it making it even more niche, and then you take out any hint of bare skin which will probably cut out they few hundred people left that were actually interested in the game. Sadly, I guess they haven't cut enough to dissuade me from purchasing it; well they have, but this game's print will probably be so limited that used copies will end up being rare and expensive.
I don't actually know if the plot is being changed, they may just do the same thing they did with FF. Now, FF was actually rated M (or was it T?) so they may have left most of the subtext intact in that scenario just changed the severity of the presentation through imagery changes as per how they handled FF.
In general, it just seems that NoA does not take kindly to exploitative implications with photography and would-be minors or women.
The discomfort is still present, it is considerably toned back in the immediate explicit presentation. The girl is in a swimsuit/revealing attire in the original which makes the scene much more heavy-handed as she's presented as very vulnerable and exploited for her body, the overall tone and forcefulness of the scene (to the point of being mentally traumatizing) is still in the English version but she's in more normal clothing (full body) so some of the symbolism has been stricken from the presentation.
You've lessened the explicit imagery of the objectification the girl experienced, though she's still being objectified and forcefully exploited in either version. The English version is easier to swallow but delivers the message with a dulled edge, the original is a knife to the heart.
meltingparappa
Member
That... is actually a really good point.
Maybe they'll just take out the voiced dialogue for those parts. I'm willing to be every single line in the game isn't voiced, so it shouldn't be too jarring, but it might make that section feel "cheaper."
Eolz
Member
Yeah, nobody really knows yet, I guess we'll have to wait for review copies.
FF was M yeah, and TMS has the same rating that it got in Japan as well. No changes would have been needed to keep the same age rating, so it's editorial reasons being behind that.
For the last part of your part, that's what made sense for Lyn in XCX, but for other characters being already legal and getting their age up as well...
After that, implications are a whole other debate and likely off-topic
edit: whoops posted without seeing your second answer. Yeah, that's what I meant by environmental storytelling and subtext missing. Changing that removes a lot of what makes it interesting/impacting.
If you look on twitter, it seems that any localization changes questions will have to be answered by Nintendo btw (or at least, for Atlus to get the greenlight for them to talk about that). So we'll probably never know...
As a fan of jrpgs, every single time something like this has come up in the past few years the single biggest thing that has bothered me is the utter silence regarding the changes being made when bringing these games over. As a fan, being told nothing is akin to being told that I should just be glad they brought these games over in any condition and should glady shell out whatever price they ask for them. It's easy to say that the changes arn't a bit deal and don't matter but when they get snuck in and need to be dissected by fans looking through limited promo footage and leaks, It's clearly a big enough deal to not announce them until after people have paid for their copy. While they game may largely be the same, it sure is a bummer to have to replace my typical hype for new Japanese games coming to the west with worry that the next one will be the game to finally change too much and go too far.
Yeah, nobody really knows yet, I guess we'll have to wait for review copies.
FF was M yeah, and TMS has the same rating that it got in Japan as well. No changes would have been needed to keep the same age rating, so it's editorial reasons being behind that.
For the last part of your part, that's what made sense for Lyn in XCX, but for other characters being already legal and getting their age up as well...
After that, implications are a whole other debate and likely off-topic
Hardin implied on twitter that any localization changes questions will have to be answered by Nintendo btw (or at least, for Atlus to get the greenlight for them to talk about that). So we'll probably never know...
XCX is pretty tame, I don't really much of an issue there since none of the characters are put into this scenario so no real reason to alter anything other than Lyn's rather tasteless attire given her age.
I don't think its the legality that so much the issue but that we're dealing with past-tense with a teenager who, even if aged up, would have been under-aged in the past. Also, as I said, I think it ties into a distaste for the presented imagery as exploitation of women, not just minors.
AcademicSaucer
Member
Is amazing that NOA took a game that had a tiny audience and made that audience even smaller.
I'll play the inevitable handheld port tho, the dungeons and the combat are supposed to be amazing.
I'll play the inevitable handheld port tho, the dungeons and the combat are supposed to be amazing.
XCX is more risque than this game in terms of outfits, and it also has a T rating. You can get bikini, thong armor and seductive bunny suits for all the characters except Lin, but we can't even have regular bikinis in this game for some reason even though they're aging the characters up to 18. Nintendo's censorship is just incredibly inconsistent from game to game, and they're unwilling to talk about any of their standards or anything, which makes it more frustrating.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Holy cow, do we need to do this same idiotic song and dance around the definition of censorship every time something like this happens? Self-censorship is a thing and so is corporate censorship. They exist, they really happen, and they are often what is going on in these scenarios.
Some of us may not care about it much (I know I'm not particularly perturbed), which is a perfectly valid opinion, but we don't need to deny it happening.
kunonabi
Member
is there a reason we keep referring to "Lyn's tastleless attire" when it's just clothing options that all the women could pick from? All the articles in favor of the censorship kept trying to spin it as sexed up 15 year-old designed by Nintendo when that was never the case.
This is such bullshit, Nintendo shouldn't work with Atlus any more if they can't handle content like this (although it seems to be more of an issue on NoA's end and not with NCL apparently). SMT is known for it's content around the primal nature of humans: sexuality, tribalism etc, yet Atlus localises all their games without changing anything.
Imagine if Nintendo helped with Persona 4: Kanji's bath house can't have any sexually ambiguous scenes. Strip Club, now a toned down night club. Those dungeons in Persona 4 were manifestations of the characters thoughts and emotions, just as the dungeons in TMS#FE are manifestations of the characters that created them, gravure idol shots included.
I don't know why I bother any more... all this emotion and effort over a game would be better spent elsewhere I think. I don't have to put up with this with any other publisher. Good job Nintendo, please don't waste Atlus' time/ resources in the future.
I will definitely agree with others that the lack of consistency between games is the biggest problems with any of the edits that any western branch of Nintendo enacts. The Xenoblade X situation was so mild and still resulted in a lot of skin on top of the dark undertones in the sidequests that implied a lot of really graphic violence and anti-religious sentiments.
The silence is unfortunate, but less surprising given that it's right in line with how they handle everything at the company from a PR standpoint. New information on announced products, preview builds, you name it. It surprised me that NOA already leaped in front of Atlus with the announcement about their hand in the localization, since they rarely ever talk about any kind of third party company that they hire on for localization purposes.
The silence is unfortunate, but less surprising given that it's right in line with how they handle everything at the company from a PR standpoint. New information on announced products, preview builds, you name it. It surprised me that NOA already leaped in front of Atlus with the announcement about their hand in the localization, since they rarely ever talk about any kind of third party company that they hire on for localization purposes.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
It's been said before, but it's worth considering again for sure. From a more business-ended perspective, I don't get the ideas behind the move.
This game has been mocked before as a kind of "lol Vita title," and even I've complained about things I didn't like. But I never thought they'd change the stuff. It's a game with a seemingly niche audience, so why would you potentially piss off that niche audience trying to make the game have a wider appeal? Are they actually going to try to push the marketing now to try to get the FE people? Are they just trying to avoid internet-shit-storms? What's the end-game here?
Olengie
Member
I like to believe that it is this.
My point is that XCX does not have scenes like FF where the attire is put into a specific context. That's what I am discussing with Eolz.
I really doubt there would have been any, because this game is so niche that it's not even getting a dub, and the girls are now 18 anyway so seeing bikinis (which have been in other Nintendo games, as mentioned previously) which are actually relevant to the plot for once, in this case, wouldn't be an issue.
Well, in both Fatal Frame and this game the gravure stuff is part of the plot, so it's not like it's just something thrown in for fanservice.
But which shit storms would actually happen/be more significant: the ones happening right now due to "censorship," or ones that could theoretically happen from outrage for the content in #FE?
Yes, this is part of the discussion as well, and goes back to what we were discussing. It seems that someone (or all of) NoA has a problem with the explicit showing of exploitation of this sort with young adults/children or women. The scene/plot point in FF, for example, is preserved in its meaning and implications but the explicit imagery is changed and blow softened but, regardless of which scene you watch, you know exactly what's going on. The presentation is altered to soften its explicit connotations, nothing is done to change the implicit meaning. I suspect a similar alteration is occurring here.
The question that I posed and that is hard to answer is where this is coming from but it is definitely a consistent theme with their work and I don't think it has anything to do with being "prude" (they have plenty of examples of not caring even recently but the context seems to be the key in when they will or won't edit a scene) but with a simple distaste in the material and presentation.
You can run around in XCX in bikinis or space-bras, you can have sexually charged Hot Spring banter between a male Corrin and Camilla. The idea of "being prude" is out of the window, it has something to do with context that gets to them.
Eolz
Member
I agree on that. The problem with Lyn is that they didn't put any limitations on her attire given her age, and there was no reason for it. It wasn't a bad change (unlike some customization sliders and some costumes still removed for the other characters for no reason).
As said above in several posts, removing content in anticipation of a potential shitpost is a bit idiotic in this age when people know what is getting cut, and when what is getting changed didn't really need a change in the first place.
Big differences between Fates, this, FF and XCX, but in the end, completely different standards for the same thing.
Olengie
Member
Probably from the outrage for the content in #FE? Idk. Just spitballing here.
A part of me just wishes Nintendo decided to release a title w/o censorship, just to see if there would be an actual shitstorm. If there was, it would validate their concerns. If there wasn't, they'll just proceed without any edits. That's just my opinion though.
Like no joke, I just think this would happen, despite it probably not happening.
Olengie
Member
Probably from the outrage for the content in #FE? Idk. Just spitballing here.
A part of me just wishes Nintendo decided to release a title w/o censorship, just to see if there would be an actual shitstorm. If there was, it would validate their concerns. If there wasn't, they'll just proceed without any edits. Unless this already happened. That's just my opinion though.
Like no joke, I just think this would happen, despite it probably not happening.
Like no joke, I just think this would happen, despite it probably not happening.
But the thing is is that #FE is a niche Wii U JRPG about the Japanese entertainment industry that performed poorly sales-wise even in Japan. Content outrage happens to high profile titles like Mass Effect or Grand Theft Auto, not games no one's even heard about.
Like, have we ever heard mass media outrage for games like Senran Kagura? Criminal Girls? Dungeon Travelers? Conception? It just doesn't happen. Because those games have very specific audiences and they're not nearly big enough for mass media to even care.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Yup, and it's highly unlikely any of these changes give this game any chance to gain mass media appeal or recognition since at its core it's only interesting to a very small niche, one which would be largely opposed to such changes.
Could always ask for Jack Thompson to be reinstated. The guy tried to make Killer7 moral outrage a thing!
kunonabi
Member
Neither would be significant. Tokyo Mirage Sessions was never a name you were going to hear on the news, bikini haters on twitter aren't buying the game one way or the other, and the anti-censorship crowd doesn't get taken seriously since a large portion of them will still buy the game and they don't carry the same weight on social media as the pro-censorship side does.
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