The Chinese Room accuses CD Projekt Red of making sexist games

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uhh wasn't Everybody's Gone To The Rapture sexist as hell too? all the female characters were either bitter old women or young girls who couldn't control their emotions and had to be "rescued" by men.. they wrote female characters that were so one-dimensional and without nuance that it almost made me puke. obviously written by men who don't understand things.

and where were all the other minorities in the game? yeah, nowhere.
 
Whether it's "objectively" sexist or not is entirely irrelevant: anyone in a marketing department would know that there would be people who would find it sexist, even if the grand beholder wouldn't. That's the controversy that would be stirred up (and it was and now is again) and is good for promotion.
I think this is reaching a bit. I really doubt that the mindset behind that 2 minute teaser was to stir up controversy.

I specifically cited that CDPR has been dealing with these modern culture war issues with all of their games going back to TW1. First with the cards, then the Playboy spread for W2 (as well as general sexuality), then with Ciri's peekaboo costuming and the all-white-people-only world of the W3.

In my statement, I'm not taking a side on any of the controversies, I'm just saying that CDPR has been dealing with this since their infancy and their general MO is to say nothing. Which has been working for them because people will argue for them based on their own political leanings.
And I think it is strange to bring up things from a game 10 years ago when the last few years have shown significant changes and progress on these issues.

Of course people argue based on their own political leanings. That goes both ways. Some argue in favor, some against. I don't see how that has any relation to this current issue.

Some issues you point out are also pretty strange. The "all-white-people-only world" has been discussed before a dozen times I feel and really isn't an issue when looking at the setting of the game. Just like some sexism and racism issues being handled in the game does not make it a sexist or racist game.
 
I defend their right to do it. It's not causing any harm or hurting anyone.

The ESRB agrees with me as well, and so do other ratings boards. Or it wouldn't have received an adult rating and been cleared for release.

Personal opinion on how crass they are withstanding, but like any other adult medium using sex appeal, it's the buyers wallet that votes for them, not censorship.

I don't know how some of you posters watch Game of Thrones or any HBO series for this matter. Or read books. If you're triggered at nude pictures on cards it must be a hell of a life to navigate through in the real world.

Evidently it is hurting someone if it's got you convinced it's something worth defending.
 
uhh wasn't Everybody's Gone To The Rapture sexist as hell too? all the female characters were either bitter old women or young girls who couldn't control their emotions and had to be "rescued" by men.. they wrote female characters that were so one-dimensional and without nuance that it almost made me puke. obviously written by men who don't understand things.

and where were all the other minorities in the game? yeah, nowhere.

I haven't played the game so I would know but I thought all characters were essentially orbs of light? So I'm not sure how minorities would be shown?

(Again never played it so asking more out of curiously)
 
Eh, I guess I could see where one could consider Witcher 3 to be a bit sexist... that being said the game also features some of the most compelling and memorable female characters I've seen in gaming. Characters that could easily carry a game on their own.
 
I think this is reaching a bit. I really doubt that the mindset behind that 2 minute teaser was to stir up controversy.

Do you think they picked that subject matter because it was staid and boring?


And I think it is strange to bring up things from a game 10 years ago when the last few years have shown significant changes and progress on these issues.

Of course people argue based on their own political leanings. That goes both ways. Some argue in favor, some against. I don't see how that has any relation to this current issue.

Some issues you point out are also pretty strange. The "all-white-people-only world" has been discussed before a dozen times I feel and really isn't an issue when looking at the setting of the game. Just like some sexism and racism issues being handled in the game does not make it a sexist or racist game.


This goes back to the "objective perspective", which really doesn't exist.

You don't think any of it is an issue.
Some people think it is an issue.

What do we do now?
 
I was way too focused on their reaction to an image, that i ignored the fact that they said the witcher 3 was sexist lol. Please tell me another game from last year that came even close to having the amount of empowered women witcher 3 has...
 
Do you think they picked that subject matter because it was staid and boring?





This goes back the "objective perspective", which really doesn't exist.

You don't think any of it is an issue.
Some people think it is an issue.

What do we do now?

To be fair, exciting setting doesn't always equate to controversial :p
 
Evidently it is hurting someone if it's got you convinced it's something worth defending.

I'm not hurt, just bemused at the inability for some to live in the real world as other adults can and do.

I'll happily defend their right to do it as I personally find the modern era of unnecessary censorship dangerous and disgusting. I'd rather people be empowered to make their own decisions and enjoy adult content at will. Anything illegal, genuinely threatening or violent I'll speak out against and hope legitimate forms of censorship can defend.

Otherwise I really don't find a future where I'm policed to death about what adult content I consume in my own home becomes such a deafening reality. Understandably I don't enjoy being called a sexist when I'm possibly one of the kindest and most caring people you could meet. Simply enjoying or not bothering about sexual content does not make someone bad or ashamed.
 
uhh wasn't Everybody's Gone To The Rapture sexist as hell too? all the female characters were either bitter old women or young girls who couldn't control their emotions and had to be "rescued" by men.. they wrote female characters that were so one-dimensional and without nuance that it almost made me puke. obviously written by men who don't understand things.

and where were all the other minorities in the game? yeah, nowhere.

The head of the observatory was!a black American. Does that count?
 
Do you think they picked that subject matter because it was staid and boring?
I am not that familiar with the game and background, but someone else in this thread said it was a callback to the source material. Of course you don't use boring stuff for a teaser, but that is something different then trying to be controversial on purpose. I really, really doubt people at CDProjekt when approving the teaser were thinking "good, now we get some discussion going on sexism in our game and get more sales from that."

This goes back the "objective perspective", which really doesn't exist.

You don't think any of it is an issue.
Some people think it is an issue.

What do we do now?
What we do is not putting developers on blast for issues that are not really there. Certainly not in a drive-by tweet that takes material out of context.

The Chinese Room blames CDProjekt for being sexist, while their latest product (The Witcher 3) wasn't that.
 
I don't find some of the portrayals of females to be very suave in those games, but it's hardly on a level where i would give a crap. Might as well complain on how similarly the men are portrayed like power hungry morons, kinda goes with the style.
 
I don't find some of the portrayals of females to be very suave in those games, but it's hardly on a level where i would give a crap. Might as well complain on how similarly the men are portrayed like power hungry morons, kinda goes with the style.

Not sure what you mean by suave? (English isn't my first language so I might be misunderstanding you)

Could you elaborate? My apologies
 
I don't find some of the portrayals of females to be very suave in those games, but it's hardly on a level where i would give a crap. Might as well complain on how similarly the men are portrayed like power hungry morons, kinda goes with the style.

Pickup any modern romance novel aimed at women. Strong, outgoing, masculine protagonist who is a doctor or neuro scientist and amazing in bed. Point being? It sells to an adult market who understands it is fiction and to be enjoyed as such. Those not wanting to read such fantasy? They don't buy it, not try to censor it.
 
It is funny because some in this thread are trying to police tweets that are trying to police sexist game content. Weez all the same.
 
It is funny because some in this thread are trying to police tweets that are trying to police sexist game content. Wees all the same.

Very true, I prefer to look at it as an opportunity to discuss point of views more than anything.

It's just a shame the tweet didn't include actual arguments to support its claim.
 
I don't find some of the portrayals of females to be very suave in those games, but it's hardly on a level where i would give a crap. Might as well complain on how similarly the men are portrayed like power hungry morons, kinda goes with the style.

Exactly both genders are stereotyped and objectified in their own ways and its not just a one gender attribute. An anyone that says that they haven't done so are fucking lying to themselves even if they don't know it.


Pickup any modern romance novel aimed at women. Strong, outgoing, masculine protagonist who is a doctor or neuro scientist and amazing in bed. Point being? It sells to an adult market who understands it is fiction and to be enjoyed as such. Those not wanting to read such fantasy? They don't buy it, not try to censor it.

Yep that's why it's called fiction, a heightened reflection of reality or a fantasy alone in it's own context.
 
I am not that familiar with the game and background, but someone else in this thread said it was a callback to the source material. Of course you don't use boring stuff for a teaser, but that is something different then trying to be controversial on purpose. I really, really doubt people at CDProjekt when approving the teaser were thinking "good, now we get some discussion going on sexism in our game and get more sales from that."

The source material has literally thousands of pieces of art in it that ranges from mechanized forms to dudes with guns to beautiful cityscapes to fascist imagery to high technology to women in tube tops. They picked this image to use.

Do you think that they thought, in the current (even for then) political games climate, that no one would say anything? Do you actually think that they didn't consider it, but thought the pros of the imagery were more beneficial than the views of the opposition?

I'm not trying to portray them as monsters. But you're trying to portray them as idiots.

It should also be noted that the CG release trailer for Witcher 3 featured an attractive nearly nude model in it as well. Why do you think they chose that imagery instead of, say, fighting a monster or something?


What we do is not putting developers on blast for issues that are not really there. Certainly not in a drive-by tweet that takes material out of context.

The Chinese Room blames CDProjekt for being sexist, while their latest product (The Witcher 3) wasn't that.

Some people think those issues really are there. And they think that they are harmful to the overall health of the industry.

You do not think they are there.

What do we do now?
 
Pickup any modern romance novel aimed at women. Strong, outgoing, masculine protagonist who is a doctor or neuro scientist and amazing in bed. Point being? It sells to an adult market who understands it is fiction and to be enjoyed as such. Those not wanting to read such fantasy? They don't buy it, not try to censor it.

Calling distasteful and potentially sexist material isn't censorship. It's like Quiet in MGS5. You didn't have to buy the game to know the way she was represented was horrible.
 
The source material has literally thousands of pieces of art in them that range from mechanized forms to dudes with guns to beautiful cityscapes to fascist imagery to high technology to women in tube tops. They picked this image to use.

Do you think that they thought, in the current (even for then) political games climate, that no one would say anything? Do you actually think that they didn't consider it, but thought the pros of the imagery were more beneficial than the views of the opposition?

I'm not trying to portray them as monsters. But you're trying to portray them as idiots.

It should also be noted that the CG release trailer for Witcher 3 featured an attractive nearly nude model in it as well. Why do you think they chose that imagery instead of, say, fighting a monster or something?




Some people think those issues really are there. And they think that they are harmful to the overall health of the industry.

You do not think they are there.

What do we do now?

Let the medium progress with the same artistic freedom books and movies enjoy and stuff people don't want won't sell. That is the philosophical and in my opinion correct way to approach it.

Genuine issues with sexism and degradation in the work place, well, that should be treated like it is in any industry. With disdain and legal inquiry.

Calling distasteful and potentially sexist material isn't censorship. It's like Quiet in MGS5. You didn't have to buy the game to know the way she was represented was horrible.

Sure but I'm also weary of the modern day lynch mobs that go after writers and directors publicly. It sucks if they manage to push creative freedom out of the window with ironically harassing those they don't like. Obviously for CDPR this probably won't ever be an issue as they refrain from responding or seemingly caring about the online blowback.
 
They should have used a man with his head blown off and his brains exposed. Then it would have been perfectly okay.
You know, even ultra-violence would probably be a much more interesting image to have in your head for your cool Cyberpunk game than just a sexy cyborg chick.

And I actually blame the media on this one. CD Projekt has not yet started an actual marketing campaign and already released concept art that captures the spirit much better than that drab CG video. This one is great, for starters. But noo, everyone is focusing on naked ladies. Video game journalists are a bunch of cretins (when it comes to picking good header images).
 
See the rating on the game? It's an adult game with adult themes.

Can't handle that then go hug a blanket and watch some children's cartoons.

Spoken like a true adult.

Why young men? Can adults of all ages, both male and female not enjoy adult themes?

They most certainly can.

However, the problem being that most adult themes don't appeal to all genders simultaneously, developers by in large have their adult themes appeal to straight males because a) it's usually what they are most familiar with and b) they assume that is the lion's share of their target audience.

It's also not real life, it's a game. Real life sexual discrimination is a worthwhile topic, a video game really isn't. Just like books and movies can depict adult themes and people can manage to differentiate real life from fiction.

It's a politically correct social justice warrior approved tweet that I hope CDPR laugh at.

Why are video games excluded from this sort of criticism? You certainly don't see the same level of reaction when someone dissects similar themes in other media.

Exactly.

And for those on the SJW front, go browse Tumblr for a few days. Half of the modern day feminists reblog pictures of naked women and "arty" sexual pictures. Tumblr is almost more of a porn site than Porn hub. But I guess it's okay to see females enjoy sexually stimulating material, but if you can nail guys for doing it, you can shame them and call them sexist.

I...don't even know what to say.

The "women" you talk about are fictional characters. Polygons don't have hurt feelings, emotions and can suffer from PTSD after violence, sexual or non.

Equality is rightfully fought for in real life, in work environments and for women/men abused and in danger.

Make that distinction and you can actually start looking for real inequality and sexism in the world. Not within polygons and fiction.

Why discredit the argument entirely with this? Why can't we have both?

If the model wanted to do it, so what? It can be viewed as good or bad depending on personal opinion and aversion to sex/nudity, but it is not sexist.

This is completely wrong.

Well that's what parts of the world genuinely want, and want with law/force. So it's not surprising that spills over into any medium that allows female or male characters to be depicted otherwise. Sex and nudity has forever been the bogeyman, violence tends to have made strides further to be less harassed and policed, and simply governed through ratings for content. America in the western world is still terrible with nudity, and still clutches to shaming around sex and ones biological urges to feel okay at being sexually stimulated/engaging in sex or masterbation.

It's more serious and dangerous in real life though. As a guy I've been warned by UK government travel advice for example not to wear shorts if I visit Saudi Arabia. Hahaha.

In all seriousness though that is a real problem, not nudity and sex in ESRB rated optional adult content.

You seem to think that the discussion as a whole is leading the industry towards some sort of extreme/puritan movement, which is simply not the case.

If the general concept of the game appeals to all genders, shouldn't the adult content in question appeal to all genders too?

If it's consensual it's no more sexist than a consensual gang bang or swingers party. It's an adult world with adult themes. Let adults be adults and live their lives if it's all legal, consensual and not harming anyone.

Personally I like to leave the sexist remark to women or men forced into something, harassed at work or in real life without consent or possibly denied a job simply due to their gender. You know real serious issues, not bickering over nudity and consensual sexually stimulating material. No one is forcing anyone to consume adult entertainment or look up sexy women posing on Google.

Vote with your wallet and ignore books, movies or games with sex or sexual themes. Leave other adults to make that decision themselves, and if they enjoy such entertainment don't try to shame or censor them.

Your self definition of sexist has no bearing on this discussion so why you keep trying to defuse the argument with it is beyond me. Game censorship is a wholly different can of worms, largely stemming from localizations citing cultural differences. Outcry on such topics and viewing it as shaming your personal tastes misses the point.

Your posts on this have, by in large, been astonishingly reductive. For something you repeatedly state is not worth discussing, you sure have a lot to say about it!
 
I played and did not enjoy Everyone's Gone to the Rapture despite being really excited for it. This comes across as kind of sour - even if it's not intended this way - because they are the little fish nipping at the reigning king. Kind of a poor look for their brand.

Also, those who want a more nuanced discussion than Walker simulator jokes: what are we to discuss? TCR made a one sentence sexism joke. It's not surprising that people are just chiming back with one of their own.
 
Let the medium progress with the same artistic freedom books and movies enjoy and stuff people don't want won't sell. That is the philosophical and in my opinion correct way to approach it.

Genuine issues with sexism and degradation in the work place, well, that should be treated like it is in any industry. With disdain and legal inquiry.

The artistic freedom that books and movies enjoy is the freedom to be criticized from varying perspectives that may be uncomfortable to hear.
 
They're drawing this conclusion based off a picture of a scantily clad woman?

So anything sexy is "sexist" now, is that what I'm getting here?

This is coming from someone who thinks there's too much of that shit in gaming as is but still, come the fuck on.

Yeah im getting tired of this
 
Calling distasteful and potentially sexist material isn't censorship. It's like Quiet in MGS5. You didn't have to buy the game to know the way she was represented was horrible.


I couldn't disagree more, in a work of fiction context is EVERYTHING.

Without context l, shots from bayonetta are sexist, in context brings new meaning. The same can be applied to Triss, Jenniffer, or dozens of other examples.
 
The artistic freedom that books and movies enjoy is the freedom to be criticized from varying perspectives that may be uncomfortable to hear.

I agree with this, while I disagree with the conclusion that some make, they are free to their opinions.
 
The first thing I see when meeting Kiera Metz is her naked in a bath.

Also nearly all characters are white for some reason.
Its Witcher lore for female mages to use magic to appear hotter. Geralt also first meets Yennifer as she takes a bath so I think its just something their order does.
 
Not sure what you mean by suave? (English isn't my first language so I might be misunderstanding you)

Could you elaborate? My apologies

fig1-nicholls.jpg


That's suave.
 
Spoken like a true adult.



They most certainly can.

However, the problem being that most adult themes don't appeal to all genders simultaneously, developers by in large have their adult themes appeal to straight males because a) it's usually what they are most familiar with and b) they assume that is the lion's share of their target audience.



Why are video games excluded from this sort of criticism? You certainly don't see the same level of reaction when someone dissects similar themes in other media.



I...don't even know what to say.



Why discredit the argument entirely with this? Why can't we have both?



This is completely wrong.



You seem to think that the discussion as a whole is leading the industry towards some sort of extreme/puritan movement, which is simply not the case.

If the general concept of the game appeals to all genders, shouldn't the adult content in question appeal to all genders too?



Your self definition of sexist has no bearing on this discussion so why you keep trying to defuse the argument with it is beyond me. Game censorship is a wholly different can of worms, largely stemming from localizations citing cultural differences. Outcry on such topics and viewing it as shaming your personal tastes misses the point.

Your posts on this have, by in large, been astonishingly reductive. For something you repeatedly state is not worth discussing, you sure have a lot to say about it!

Just for your effort alone, thanks. Not being sarcastic at least you engage with me with argument.

I'll happily accept your rebuttals but in reality I think we are too far away from each other on the spectrum to really influence either.

I take your views and points on board but will simply finish by saying I don't think anything is not worth discussing. The battle of ideas is how I personally shape myself as a human being.

The artistic freedom that books and movies enjoy is the freedom to be criticized from varying perspectives that may be uncomfortable to hear.

This I agree with. I guess I'm just jaded that in gaming the debate and criticism is still largely based around buzz word throwing, and largely in my opinion seriously overblown outrage.

As I said above I worry more for developers that they compromise their artistic freedoms than any individuals win an argument on a message board. We've not that long ago gone through the nonsense with game ratings in Australia and still occasionally deal with politicians and government trying to censor games or not treat them like other mediums. I don't want criticism to be outlawed, I just simply don't want censorship to stop games being able to be treated as respectfully as a medium as movies and books do.
 
"not parading around half-naked women is censorship, and let me explain why by telling you that you can't think, speak or act in a certain way or else i'm the one being censored"
 
Sure but I'm also weary of the modern day lynch mobs that go after writers and directors publicly.

It isn't just creative types that get targeted: try having a serious conversation about climate change or Donald Trump that doesn't adhere to popular wisdom.
 
Its a bit rare for devs to come after over devs like this.

I dont know much of CDPRs other projects but based on the witcher 3, accusations of sexism seem way off base. Just because there is nudity does not make something in itself sexist. I thought all the female characters in the game were extremely well written and showed a whole gamunt of attitudes, looks and emotions.

You could argue that having a hero that had the option of having sex with some of these women was sexist, but thats ignoring the implict and explict participation that these women were guilty off.

It was never a simple Male power fantasy like God of war, or Eye candy like DOA.

In some cases (Kiera in particular) It was clear the women seduced and manipulated the hero just as much.
 
"not parading around half-naked women is censorship, and let me explain why by telling you that you can't think, speak or act in a certain way or else i'm the one being censored"

Again with these posts....

You're not making an argument man, you're literally providing a straw man and ignoring valid points people are making.

What you're doing isn't clever, funny, or helping the discussion progress. It's mocking.
 
I thought all the female characters in the game were extremely well written and showed a whole gamunt of attitudes, looks and emotions.

(...)

You could argue that having a hero that had the option of having sex with some of these women was sexist, but thats ignoring the implict and explict participation that these women were guilty off.

What proportion of them is Geralt unable to have sex with?
 
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