How much would this game have to sell to be reach the level of "well". Changes or not, I can't believe this game actually sells well. Unless whoever is evaluating the numbers have their expectations firmly in check.
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Western Localisation Of Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE Features Costume And Age Changes
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How much would this game have to sell to be reach the level of "well". Changes or not, I can't believe this game actually sells well. Unless whoever is evaluating the numbers have their expectations firmly in check.
cm osi
Member
it was niche from the beginning, and they managed to alienate even the niche. good job nintendo
I find that interesting since it makes me wonder if it's a step from the Japanese branch to try and step away from games or modify their own games without those elements. Obviously, games that had been in development for at least the past couple of years couldn't be changed too much at this point.
It's only being localized because they funded/published it in the first place.
it'll also put you on a list with the cia, kgb, mi6, mib, nfl, and trump's
What were they even realistically expecting? At most, probably a bit more than Japan's sale based on the sole fact that the rest of the world's population with a wii u is bigger than japan's. Otherwise splatoon this is not.
KratosEnergyDrink
Member
As long as some Japanese developers put childlike characters in sexy outfits the localisation process will change this. And let's be honest, these naked young characters are in there to target a specific group in Japan.
As long as they do not change substantial things in the localisation process, like story or gameplay, it doesn't bother me. The last few rants about localisation (Fire Emblem, Fatal Frame, etc.) were all laughable.
Yeah, a real colossal boner.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Omnishambles.
KratosEnergyDrink
Member
I don't think they alienated the niche, they probably alienated a very small niche inside a niche. Xenoblade, Fire Emblem, Bravely Second seems to sell well, despite a vocal niche boycotting them. The only people harmed in this process were the boycotting players that missed these games.
But perhaps on the other hand they made it possible for not niche-niche players to show these game to some people outside of the niche without getting weird glances.
Guys, localization decisions are made a on a per-game basis, with the exception of games in series... and TMS is not getting a sequel. There's no need to stir the "support or everything dies" pot.
If you've played or watched the game for more than a minute you know that's impossible. This game is pretty unabashedly super-anime, you either like that stuff or you don't.
If you've played or watched the game for more than a minute you know that's impossible. This game is pretty unabashedly super-anime, you either like that stuff or you don't.
KratosEnergyDrink
Member
It is still super-anime. But anime does not necessarily mean underage characters in slips. So making some characters older or more dressed does not bother most of its western audience.
Not all that interested in this game to begin with, even less so hearing of all these edits but I just gotta chime in and say that I've always found this "be grateful we're even getting the game at all!" rhetoric to be just straight up bullshit. Consumers should not have to bow down their heads in humble acceptance of whatever scraps they get after games go through the chopping block and get "sanitized" for the west's perceived delicate sensibilities. That shit was unacceptable back then and it should be unacceptable now, no matter to what degree it happens.
I don't know what game you're thinking of, but it's not this one.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
The story isn't the same and outrage != post count.
Excuse me, but where in the article does it state that the story has been altered? Or am I missing something entirely? And perhaps outrage isn't the apt word to use in this situation. Is 'disappointment' suffice?
I don't understand whats to gain from this. I could maybe see the argument for Fire Emblem because that franchise has the potential to cross over and become popular with kids or people less familar with JRPGs due to it's inclusion in Smash.
But the only people who will buy this game are the exact people who don't want this stuff cut/altered. No parent is buying this game for their kids this christmas. All thats going to happen is that people are going to get pissed
But the only people who will buy this game are the exact people who don't want this stuff cut/altered. No parent is buying this game for their kids this christmas. All thats going to happen is that people are going to get pissed
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Disappointment is fine, but there's no need to generalise. The thread is this long because people have been discussing it, and that article was written because it's newsworthy, no need to tie an emotional state to that. And we're now 11 pages past that original article, which both contains information that's plain false and is incomplete because we've since learned about more changes, such as Tsubasa's scenario being rewritten. Read the thread for more details.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
I'm glad they're bringing it over, I'm glad they haven't cancelled it, and I'm glad they're editing it. I'm not accepting humble scraps.
kunonabi
Member
They're still scraps whether it bothers you or not.
Gaiaknight
Member
well yea but thats because certain jrpg series i have been playing for 15-20 years so its easier to look past some stuff when it comes to newer entry in those series like fiore's character design. If i was gonna name a game that takes it to far for me it would be Omega Quintet but thats a discussion for another day lol.
bishopcruz
Member
Glad they are editing it? Fine with editing, I disagree, but I can at least understand. GLAD they are editing it? Well, at least you've outed yourself as pro-censorship for something you find icky.
I guess it's great that you're cool with a lack of respect for the audience, and apparently you have none either.
There's nothing wrong with being happy to have a product that fits your tastes better. Personally I think making this game full of fanservice in the first place was fairly disrespectful to the audience to start with.
This. It'd also be best to tone down the hostility.
bishopcruz
Member
That came off as harsher than intended. In either case though, I'm not particularly thrilled at getting something to better fit my tastes while changing the product and discounting the tastes of others.
Had the game always been as it is now, no issue. But the fact that it was changed from the original to not just be understandable, but to conform to the tastes of those who, apparently didn't care much for the tone of it in the first place is problematic.
In other words, if the original version bothered you so much that you felt that these changes were necessary, then this wasn't the game for you.
Look at it this way, let's assume that the situation were reversed. That the version we are getting now is the one that was originally released in Japan, and because of market research Nintendo figured they needed to sex up the game a bit and so they changed it to add bikinis more cleavage and the like. I would be just as against that. Not because I have an issue with the bikinis and the like, but because the tone of the game changes, for purely marketing reasons. I would be just as against that, even IF the changes fit my taste more.
Had the game always been as it is now, no issue. But the fact that it was changed from the original to not just be understandable, but to conform to the tastes of those who, apparently didn't care much for the tone of it in the first place is problematic.
In other words, if the original version bothered you so much that you felt that these changes were necessary, then this wasn't the game for you.
Look at it this way, let's assume that the situation were reversed. That the version we are getting now is the one that was originally released in Japan, and because of market research Nintendo figured they needed to sex up the game a bit and so they changed it to add bikinis more cleavage and the like. I would be just as against that. Not because I have an issue with the bikinis and the like, but because the tone of the game changes, for purely marketing reasons. I would be just as against that, even IF the changes fit my taste more.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
At a point you're just being self-centred. I like fanservice and you don't see me complain that men or women should be more naked in threads for games that don't indulge in it. That would be insane. Yet the opposite the norm whenever fanservice pops up, because such pure and refined tastes apparently supersede those of people that enjoy it, of whom there are plenty considering the usual explanation is based on how marketable fanservice is. Considering yourself [saying "the audience" doesn't change the fact you were expressing your own feelings] disrespected by a product not catering to you specifically is even more indicative of the egocentric attitude behind that.There's nothing wrong with being happy to have a product that fits your tastes better. Personally I think making this game full of fanservice in the first place was fairly disrespectful to the audience to start with.
And if the unthinkable event of games being somehow localised to be more lewd ever happened, I'd still oppose those changes just as much. I want localisation to convey the original to me, not a kiss on the foot.
Edit: lol, bishopcruz' and my wires crossing ( ≖‿≖
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
I don't feel the changes are NECESSARY, but I understand where Nintendo is coming from and the changes make the game slightly better for me. I would have bought the game unedited (just like I think most people who were planning on buying the game will buy the game anyway even if they dislike the changes).
Actually, I think that's not far off from the current situation. Japanese RPG companies sex their games up because sexualized teenage girls sell well to the otaku demographic that's dominant among the hardcore Japanese game playing audience. And the fact that there's Japanese audio for both the Japanese version and the US edits of this game supports the idea that Nintendo planned these two versions all along - each one to better cater to what they view as their market in the different regions. I don't view the US version as censorship but rather localization.
Most of the changes that have been made are fine with me.
But then again, I wasn't too happy with the direction they took this game aesthetically. I had a VERY different image in my head of what this project would turn out to be.
I agree. The amount of fanservice being pumped into the FE and some SMT games has been sort of disturbing to me. (The waifu rubbing mode being one, straight up creepy shit IMO. Keep that garbage out of my SRPGs.)
But then again, I wasn't too happy with the direction they took this game aesthetically. I had a VERY different image in my head of what this project would turn out to be.
There's nothing wrong with being happy to have a product that fits your tastes better. Personally I think making this game full of fanservice in the first place was fairly disrespectful to the audience to start with.
I agree. The amount of fanservice being pumped into the FE and some SMT games has been sort of disturbing to me. (The waifu rubbing mode being one, straight up creepy shit IMO. Keep that garbage out of my SRPGs.)
I can't believe they greenlit this under the assumption it was going to be localized. Like...it's basically un-localizeable with the Japanese vocals.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
There's no denying that there's a marketing and profit motivation behind fanservice, but that just means enough people like fanservice to warrant it being a marketing consideration. Since developers are people too, they can enjoy fanservice they are producing as well -- regardless of Paul Marketing's endorsement. I know they might have faked their entire public personality, but it was always pretty obvious to me that people like Yosuke Hayashi (DOAX3) or Takashi Watanabe (SK) genuinely like the fanservice they feature in their games, and even though those are obviously extreme examples, the same can be true to a lesser extent for games that aren't as fanservice heavy.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Just to throw out an example - arguably the biggest new IP success in the West in recent years when it comes to anime-style RPGs is Ni no Kuni and that's very low on the sexual fan-service.
I think their idea was that Fire Emblem was getting big outside Japan and so was SMT/Persona so a cross-over game had the potential to be huge. Whereas the actual result seems to have alienated a bunch of fans from both franchises.
I'm a bit of an outlier in that I'm really excited for this game because I'm not a fan of Fire Emblem but I'm a big fan of Atlus RPGs and miss the PS2 era when they were constantly releasing new games and spin-offs. And from what I've heard, a lot of Radiant Historia staff worked on this game and that game was great.
Definitely agree with you that some fan-service games are made because the developers want to make a fan-service game and not just because of marketing. Those are the two series I would have chosen as examples as well.
I think their idea was that Fire Emblem was getting big outside Japan and so was SMT/Persona so a cross-over game had the potential to be huge. Whereas the actual result seems to have alienated a bunch of fans from both franchises.
I'm a bit of an outlier in that I'm really excited for this game because I'm not a fan of Fire Emblem but I'm a big fan of Atlus RPGs and miss the PS2 era when they were constantly releasing new games and spin-offs. And from what I've heard, a lot of Radiant Historia staff worked on this game and that game was great.
Definitely agree with you that some fan-service games are made because the developers want to make a fan-service game and not just because of marketing. Those are the two series I would have chosen as examples as well.
What difference does it make if it's a cartoon or not as long as it has the appropriate age rating on the box? This what the entire rating system should be for. To allow the consumer to decide based on an informed decision about what a game contains
For me I'm getting sick of Nintendo is essentially treating me like a kid by unnecessarily censoring stuff in games that were never meant for kids in the first place. It's very annoying that they are going above and beyond the standards required for the ratings the games are getting.
I mean it's just swimsuits! Hardly something inappropriate for a Teenager to see! That type of thing shouldn't be cut in a T rated game let alone an M rated one and yet they are doing it anyhow
Plus why bother aging a character up in the first place they are going to cut out even the slightest risque stuff anyhow?
I absolutely love rpgs but I'm starting to think I've become a little too lax just being happy to get them at all if this is going to be the result. I gave an inch with buying minorly censored stuff like Xenoblade X before and now if feels to me like they are trying to take a mile.
I try to keep hoping we get more SMT-type games on the PS3/4 once Persona 5 releases, so they can share resources to make development cheaper on the other games.
I don't understand what you mean by not tying in an emotional state to this discussion. This thread by and large is comprised of people expressing their feelings about this particular subject. I'd also venture to say that the reason this thread is as big as it is because people are passionate about the issue of censorship in games. This topic and the opinions of many is entirely emotionally based.
As far as Tsubasa is concerned -- Her scenario being rewritten does very little to the overarching theme of the game. If I'm not misinterpreting things, the original story is essentially still intact.
BassForever
Member
The only thing that I'm sad we're losing is the hot springs dlc, but considering the game isn't being dubbed anyways it really doesn't matter and watching the dlc on YouTube will probably give the same result
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Sure, but having been in plenty of threads like these there's always an undercurrent of people attacking supposed outrage instead of the actual topic discussed, that's why I have an averse reaction to that. It's obvious that people are feeling some emotion that motivates them to post, but by and large this thread has also focused on the actual discussion of these changes. By which I mean it's not just 11 pages of people going "I don't like this!!" or "I like this!!" but having actual arguments, which I feel are more important than whatever emotional state they're in. Sorry if that was an overreaction -- kind of a conditioned response by now, lol.
Maybe, that's something you have to decide for yourself. To avoid spoilers I didn't want to delve too deeply into how it affects the story as a whole, but rewriting the background of a character does count as changing the story, in my opinion. I wouldn't consider a story to merely consist of the overarching theme, so that maybe staying intact doesn't mean the story hasn't changed. Obviously, you're free to not care about how it changed, but it has changed.
lol at the accusatory tones here. You really need to lay off, dude. I wasn't calling for these changes and wouldn't have been if they weren't made. I have even said multiple times in this thread that actually making them was a stupid idea. It would have been a very minor impact on my potential enjoyment of the game if it was released in its original fashion.
By disrespecting the audience I meant operating under the assumption that the way to sell this game had to be to people for whom it's specifically a draw, which the sales figures have shown wasn't true! I mean it's not like Fire Emblem or SMT are particularly fanservicey series (FE Fates is the worst of that and it's still pretty mild), so taking things in this direction was frankly bizarre to me.
This right here, this is pretty much what I think.
God yes.
This is also a fair summary of how I feel.
Unrelated: I'm looking forward to Cosmic Star Heroine!
I was too until I saw how the main developer has been acting. Very disappointed in his professionalism and conduct.
That's really great for you but I still don't think this game got the treatment it deserved and it kinda sucks to see it being sent out to die by alienating it to the niche who were interested in it for seemingly no real good reason other than "Nintendo gonna Nintendo".
Off-topic but I also have to say that regardless of our disagreement in this topic I'm really looking forward to Cosmic Star Heroine. Game looks really rad.
I don't think the game was destroyed myself but these types of changes are worrisome for me. I can't agree to normalizing this behaviour.
I look at Germany's stance on video game censorship and germans constantly trying to circumvent them, and I don't want things to reach that level. This is why I will not be supporting Nintendo's releases with such things, and it appears that they will only double down from now on.
I look at Germany's stance on video game censorship and germans constantly trying to circumvent them, and I don't want things to reach that level. This is why I will not be supporting Nintendo's releases with such things, and it appears that they will only double down from now on.
Ya, just like P5 after Catherine...
When it comes to Atlus, you'll have more luck picking up a handheld to actually get their RPGs with any regularity. Especially if their home market continues to buckle around all but the 3DS.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
I never said you did and it was in response to the general principle of endorsing censorship just because it happens to suit one's tastes better. I know you agree the changes are stupid. You've side-stepped the point of the attitude behind wanting a game changed to cater to your tastes at the expense of others' -- not just regarding these changes specifically.
Well, I still don't think you're an ambassador for "the audience" -- whoever that may be -- and my problem lies in hiding behind them supposedly being disrespected when that's probably more representative of your own feelings, which you are free to have.
And remember, this game is developed by Atlus. SMT might not be as fanservicey (at least if you don't count Persona as SMT which it technically is) but Atlus usually indulges in fanservice.
lol are you fucking kidding me?
That's fine, I think you're doing the same thing, despite repeatedly pulling this card. That said, I think you're exaggering my position, which may not have been helped by my flippant language, so I have to apologize if there's a misunderstanding there. I never meant to imply that the entire audience for these games doesn't like fanservice (I don't even dislike it, depending on the game), I'm just saying that if I'm making an SMT x Fire Emblem game, I would think about what those franchises bring to the table and work from there, instead of making this pop culture fanservice thing that doesn't represent the character of either franchise.
Also I'm not talking about Persona, even though I admit this game has clear inspiration from it, because it was never billed as being such and there were actually an interview or two where the similarities were downplayed, oddly enough.
Rabid Dwarf 76
Member
At a point you're just being self-centred. I like fanservice and you don't see me complain that men or women should be more naked in threads for games that don't indulge in it. That would be insane. Yet the opposite the norm whenever fanservice pops up, because such pure and refined tastes apparently supersede those of people that enjoy it, of whom there are plenty considering the usual explanation is based on how marketable fanservice is. Considering yourself [saying "the audience" doesn't change the fact you were expressing your own feelings] disrespected by a product not catering to you specifically is even more indicative of the egocentric attitude behind that.
And if the unthinkable event of games being somehow localised to be more lewd ever happened, I'd still oppose those changes just as much. I want localisation to convey the original to me, not a kiss on the foot.
Edit: lol, bishopcruz' and my wires crossing ( ≖‿≖
Well said.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
We've been fighting against it for decades now and luckily the pushback has brought us to a point where plenty of games that feature a lot of violence are released uncut. What remains is the ban on fascist symbols, but even that is something I feel publishers could circumvent if they actually had a spine and stood up for their work since that ban does not include art and education (films feature them just fine and we have a damn The Office parody starring Hitler.) Worth pointing out that our ridiculous censorship has never affected sexuality in games, only violence and fascism. Scary to see thoughts that are associated with lunatic conservative politicians in this country expressed from the bottom up now.
Is this very recent? Because I saw people complaining about not being able to activate their steam key for Gemini: Heroes Reborn yesterday, and the game is from this year.
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