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Western Localisation Of Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE Features Costume And Age Changes
- Thread starter Storm Chamber
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Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
I know nothing about that game in particular. It's not really recent, but it also doesn't mean it has completely disappeared. I just mean over the years more and more games that feature content which would most assuredly have been censored in the past got released unaltered in that regard. Publishers actually advertise lack of censorship on the box now because of how stigmatised it has become. There's a German site tracking censorship of media, and their news list give a better picture of the situation. Rough translation of the first few headlines here:
And so on. All games you could expect to be censored here in the past. Especially the bit about old GTA games being un-censored after only being available censored in the past indicates healthy change. Similarly, this Steam group has been doing a similar job and even got games that were initially censored on Steam uncensored for German customers. Compare those news to around 7 years ago:
- Capcom Super Turbo HD Remix! censored
- Dead Island: Definitive Collection uncensored
- Western versions of Nioh ramp up the violence [lol]
- Mirror's Edge uncensored
- Doom uncensored
- Quantum Break uncensored
- Why The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth isn't coming for the iPad
- The Division uncensored
- No western release for DOAX3 [
]
- Far Cry Primal uncensored
- Rainbow Six: Siege uncensored
- Just Cause 3 uncensored
- Rise of the Tomb Raider uncensored
- Halo 5 uncensored
- Call of Duty: Black Ops III uncensored
- Three older GTAs now available uncensored [!]
And so on. Uncensored was definitely the exception back then, whereas it's the norm now. It does happen still, and even larger releases like The Last of Us had the violence in the multiplayer censored, but it's definitely going away -- thank God!
I hope people look at that second list as an example of what happens when offence actually dictates what's "allowed" in art.
Eolz
Member
Just to react on that, you don't need to put a game on the same platform to reuse/share assets or resources.
bishopcruz
Member
So we agree that the changes were unnecessary, all we have then is Nintendo pandering to a particular market.
As for the current situation. I don't buy it at all. Japanese games, especially those which have an anime aesthetic have been linked to the norms of the time pretty much since the first ones started showing up on systems like the FM-7 and the PC 8001. Hell, one of the first Enix games was ero. Things were toned down on consoles, but fan service has never gone away, or not been a thing, especially in anime inspired RPGs. Look at Telenet's output, or Game Arts with the Lunar series, hell even DQ has had its fan service moments, especially looking at 8. And those are just a few examples. Anime inspired games tend follow the looks and norms of the times, no one is forcing them to, it's just how it works. Also, fan service has been a part of anime since at least the 1970s. So let's not pretend that fan service is some new form of cash grab. It's a trope that is used, and has been used for decades.
If you are arguing that SMT games haven't been big on fan service, that argument could be made, but Persona, the series that seems to have been the biggest influence in the look and style of TMS #FE, and the Persona series has had fan service in it since at least 2006, it's been a decade. This isn't some new form of cash grab, this is how they want to make their games, or at least the ones in this style.
Either way though, the game was released as it was in Japan. The changes made are pointless, insulting, and by your own words, unnecessary.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I know about the boob slider change and I agree it was a totally unnecessary change, but I was specifically talking about the top change for the 13 year old which in my opinion was very insignificant and unlike #FE I could see Xenoblade X having a wider audience, in part thanks to Shulk in Smash. It also seemed like since that change was known ahead of its release it got way more attention/drama than the more legitimately dumb boob slider removal for the avatar creation was.
It's been awhile since the Fatal Frame drama; what was the story content that was changed? I just remember the fan service costumes where removed, but my point was more I can at least live with those sort of changes if an attempt is made to replace them with other content (in that case, the Samus and Zelda costumes) compared to say Fates or here where there's nothing in place of what's getting removed and altered.
Honestly, same here. It looked interesting, but I'd rather not give my money to someone advocating for content censorship. Sale lost.
bishopcruz
Member
I don't know how fair that is, I mean your money, your decision. But I learned long ago, that if you ignore works from people whose views you disagree with, JUST because you disagree with them, you'll often find yourself missing out on some great stuff. If the game looks bad, or it doesn't look interesting to me, that's one thing, but over someone's personal politics? So long as it doesn't adversely affect their work, I'm cool.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
It sold out near instantly before it was even officially announced for Australia.
I've had it pre-ordered since last year and I've nervously asked a few times at my local EB Games if it even still exists since it doesn't show up on their site anymore (but it shows up on my orders list), but they insist it's still coming for a lucky few.
Also, I don't think that's a fair characterization of his position. He's stated that he doesn't think the changes are particularly necessary, but is far less upset than others about it, and finds them to be a very minor improvement. That's hardly "advocating for content censorship." That's more like "not being bothered about what he takes to be a mild instance of localization".
Eolz
Member
cm osi
Member
This. Judge the game/final result (post localization) if you can, not the dev.
that's what we're pretty much doing, isn't it? we're judging the game for the changes that were done. we're not judging atlus. some people are not ok with it and will wait sales or buy used.
bishopcruz
Member
We were talking about Cosmic Star Heroine. Or at least I was.
Eolz
Member
Oh yeah, but wasn't what I replied about the topic switch about the Cosmic Heroine dev posts in that thread?
cm osi
Member
True, if it's good, it's good, and even if I disagree with Robert, there are other people working on the game to make it great. It's just disappointing to see a developer "glad that they're editing" content like this, when he's pretty much the face for his company.
If it turns out well, I'll give it a shot, but my enthusiasm for CSH has sure taken a nosedive after this thread.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think it fair to factor this into the judgement of Cosmic Star Heroine either. Obviously, it might "just happen" because brains are kind of shit, but I neither took Robert's posts in here as being representative of the company (I know his name is literally "Robert at Zeboyd Games" but this was clearly private use of the account) or the game. That entire principle of disliking a product because a person behind it might have a different view on something unrelated to the product's quality is something I don't agree with. At best, him being glad the fanservice is being edited reflects on the state of fanservice in Cosmic Star Heroine, which isn't really any indicator of quality per se and he's free to make any game with however little or much fanservice without fear of derision for the desire to do so.
To kind of bring this back to topic, though, looking at some of this game's art I'm baffled at even an attempt to un-fanservice this game because gaddayum:
To kind of bring this back to topic, though, looking at some of this game's art I'm baffled at even an attempt to un-fanservice this game because gaddayum:
bishopcruz
Member
Look, I don't disagree, especially since the games that were a huge influence on his style were often censored mainly back then because they had to be. We got away from a lot of censorship in the 2000s, but its recently come back. And again, it's not like fan service on cutesy looking characters or risque outfits weren't a thing back then.
But CSH looks good, I like what he's doing with sprite art and the pixel based cinematics. I'm still looking forward to CSH, but that doesn't stop him from being dead wrong on this issue.
kunonabi
Member
One of the bikinis was used in a cutscene and they replaced it with her default costume which heavily impacted the entire scene. I could have put with the costumes being removed as unlocks but the cutscene change was completely unacceptable.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
I'm not a fan of sexual fanservice in RPGs. This should come as no surprise to anyone who has followed the development of our games and is self-evident in the female character designs of Cosmic Star Heroine (modest attire for all).
Now as far as Tokyo Mirage Session goes, this is my overall stance.
1) There are many different responses to what Nintendo is doing here. Some people dislike it because they like sexual fanservice in games, some people dislike it because they think it's censorship, some people think it's minor and don't really care, and some people are in favor of it because they're not a fan of sexual fanservice. The idea that the potential fanbase are unified in their opinion on this action is not true as is obvious by all the arguments in this thread.
2) I feel what Nintendo is doing here is consistent with their actions in the past. There's no slippery slope - Nintendo of America has long had a strict policy of editing their games when it comes to underage sexualization. Their editing of TMS should come as no surprise to anyone. And no other company is following Nintendo's action except in instance where edits are necessary to avoid an AO rating.
3) I feel what editing is being done is minor. Some image changes & the removal of paid DLC with no gameplay content (just outfits & a handful of non-interactive short conversations).
4) I don't feel that editing TMS will have any noticeable effect on sales. TMS is a unique game - it's a turn-based RPG with a decent budget on a console (rare these days), it's one of only a handful of major Wii U releases this year, it's an Atlus RPG that isn't a direct sequel or remake, and the subject matter (Japanese entertainment industry) is unusual. In short, there are few direct substitute goods for this game. The vast majority of people who were planning on buying the game are unlikely to change their mind due to the changes. Most people here who are saying they aren't going to buy this game because of these changes were on the fence to begin with.
5) If the edits have any effect on sales, they will have a positive effect. Other Nintendo games have had edits and sold well (the Fire Emblem & Xenoblade series being two obvious examples). The audience for "Good RPGs" is bigger than the audience for "Games with sexualized fanservice." In general, I feel that people underestimate how popular RPGs & JRPGs are in general. With TMS, it may seem super niche at first, but it's easy to see how Nintendo could think that a collaboration between series that have become much more popular lately (Fire Emblem & SMT/Persona) could result in something successful.
6) Nintendo doesn't care about niches with niches. They're a huge company and they don't care about small successes, not with their retail games (saving that for cheap experimental digital-only games). Even if the edits DID hurt their status with the hardest of the hardcore (which I don't think it will to any noticeable effect), they don't particular care. They want to sell to the general JRPG fandom, not hardcore American otakus (even if Nintendo of Japan has no problem targeting the Japanese otaku demographic).
7) Conversely, Nintendo of America's main demographic is children & the parents of those children. Although they'll occasionally take a chance with a hard M-game that is obviously for adults, for the most part, they want to preserve their image. The West is particular harsh about the sexualization of underage individuals and so they don't want to take unnecessary chances.
I have no problem with people disagreeing with my stance, but when people make comments like "Nintendo has alienated the only people who would buy this game and their actions have guaranteed a bomb" I feel that they're being solipsistic and not seeing the bigger picture of Nintendo strategy. Nintendo's actions are primarily 1) to protect their image and 2) to increase the possibility that the game will be a more mainstream success (emphasis on MORE - nobody's expecting a Mario Kart or even a Splatoon out of TMS).
Now as far as Tokyo Mirage Session goes, this is my overall stance.
1) There are many different responses to what Nintendo is doing here. Some people dislike it because they like sexual fanservice in games, some people dislike it because they think it's censorship, some people think it's minor and don't really care, and some people are in favor of it because they're not a fan of sexual fanservice. The idea that the potential fanbase are unified in their opinion on this action is not true as is obvious by all the arguments in this thread.
2) I feel what Nintendo is doing here is consistent with their actions in the past. There's no slippery slope - Nintendo of America has long had a strict policy of editing their games when it comes to underage sexualization. Their editing of TMS should come as no surprise to anyone. And no other company is following Nintendo's action except in instance where edits are necessary to avoid an AO rating.
3) I feel what editing is being done is minor. Some image changes & the removal of paid DLC with no gameplay content (just outfits & a handful of non-interactive short conversations).
4) I don't feel that editing TMS will have any noticeable effect on sales. TMS is a unique game - it's a turn-based RPG with a decent budget on a console (rare these days), it's one of only a handful of major Wii U releases this year, it's an Atlus RPG that isn't a direct sequel or remake, and the subject matter (Japanese entertainment industry) is unusual. In short, there are few direct substitute goods for this game. The vast majority of people who were planning on buying the game are unlikely to change their mind due to the changes. Most people here who are saying they aren't going to buy this game because of these changes were on the fence to begin with.
5) If the edits have any effect on sales, they will have a positive effect. Other Nintendo games have had edits and sold well (the Fire Emblem & Xenoblade series being two obvious examples). The audience for "Good RPGs" is bigger than the audience for "Games with sexualized fanservice." In general, I feel that people underestimate how popular RPGs & JRPGs are in general. With TMS, it may seem super niche at first, but it's easy to see how Nintendo could think that a collaboration between series that have become much more popular lately (Fire Emblem & SMT/Persona) could result in something successful.
6) Nintendo doesn't care about niches with niches. They're a huge company and they don't care about small successes, not with their retail games (saving that for cheap experimental digital-only games). Even if the edits DID hurt their status with the hardest of the hardcore (which I don't think it will to any noticeable effect), they don't particular care. They want to sell to the general JRPG fandom, not hardcore American otakus (even if Nintendo of Japan has no problem targeting the Japanese otaku demographic).
7) Conversely, Nintendo of America's main demographic is children & the parents of those children. Although they'll occasionally take a chance with a hard M-game that is obviously for adults, for the most part, they want to preserve their image. The West is particular harsh about the sexualization of underage individuals and so they don't want to take unnecessary chances.
I have no problem with people disagreeing with my stance, but when people make comments like "Nintendo has alienated the only people who would buy this game and their actions have guaranteed a bomb" I feel that they're being solipsistic and not seeing the bigger picture of Nintendo strategy. Nintendo's actions are primarily 1) to protect their image and 2) to increase the possibility that the game will be a more mainstream success (emphasis on MORE - nobody's expecting a Mario Kart or even a Splatoon out of TMS).
Found another edit being discussed, apparently they removed the pelvic shading on Tsubasa in cutscenes. When this comes out, it's going to make for one hell of a game of spot the difference.
NA on top, Japan on the bottom.
NA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNiIJtWcMIg
JP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVOh85A1lLg
NA on top, Japan on the bottom.
NA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNiIJtWcMIg
JP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVOh85A1lLg
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
I can't
Found another edit being discussed, apparently they removed the pelvic shading on Tsubasa in cutscenes. When this comes out, it's going to make for one hell of a game of spot the difference.
NA on top, Japan on the bottom.
NA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNiIJtWcMIg
JP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVOh85A1lLg
Like what is even the point lol
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Maybe. An artist clearly cared enough about it to put the time into those details, so it doesn't seem that weird to me that people notice them. At the very least your brain does.
This is the post.
Perhaps they went through and edited the whole game before realizing they could up her age to 18?
I like this answer.
Its also a funny one to me.
Rather specifically my brain did not notice the difference because its a light shading in a region that isn't attracting my eyes over the massive bright light source in the middle. And in gameplay I'd have never known it was missing.
Someone on the art team (why?) noticed, and someone scouring youtube for differences (why?) noticed.
dakkumauji
Member
thank goodness nintendo put in all the effort to shield our eyes from the unpure pelvic shading
Perhaps they went through and edited the whole game before realizing they could up her age to 18?
*atlus worker coming home after an 80 hour week and collapses on couch*
*daughter walks over*
"daddy daddy, why are you so tired all the time?"
"well honey, daddy has to edit a game because the characters are apparently too young to be wearing the clothes they have"
"...why doesn't daddy just change the age of the characters then?"
*cue atlus worker with the thousand yard stare, mouth agape*
"wat"
For the latter, it makes complete sense that now people would notice these things because we've already discussed how absurd some of the previous changes had been and now people are alerted to look specifically for that stuff. Personally, if I wasn't scared of spoiling this game for myself, I'd also be scrutinizing certain details just to spot the difference, because it's pretty fun and ridiculous to notice something like "no pelvic shading."
Like, geez, "pelvic shading"? Like you said, it's not even something I would have ever noticed if it hadn't come to this point. NO ONE would have noticed something like that in whatever split second it's visible. And yet... well, here we are. It's just funny now.
It doesn't even make sense.
Camilla (Fates) put this girl to shame in terms of what she shows and how she shows it off. She wasn't touched and her dialogue is are raunchy as can get with Corrin before she takes the series into M-rated territory.
I do not understand. I cannot comprehend.
Was this game given to some other group in Treehouse... one that, perhaps, lives in a Bastille?
Camilla (Fates) put this girl to shame in terms of what she shows and how she shows it off. She wasn't touched and her dialogue is are raunchy as can get with Corrin before she takes the series into M-rated territory.
I do not understand. I cannot comprehend.
Was this game given to some other group in Treehouse... one that, perhaps, lives in a Bastille?
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
the niche were going to buy this game on the amount of skin the girls show?
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Well, I meant the artists who made the model clearly cared enough to add details like that. I wouldn't call the people removing them artists -- puritans more like. However, why they noticed is that they're clearly going over this game with a much finer toothed comb than we had guessed and now people are having the same reaction.
And how small and minor (heh) a change is -- much like any time that specific point is made -- only makes the fact that they cared enough to perform them more ridiculous. We're actually at a point where self-shadowing is getting censored.
Some people theorized that they recorded the altered dialog, where Taubasa says she's 18, during the initial recording. Either they did, and then made the totally unnecessary cutscene edits, or they made the changes first and then dragged the JP voice actors back into the studio to record new dialog for an audience who's majority wouldn't even understand it.Perhaps they went through and edited the whole game before realizing they could up her age to 18?
It's ridiculous either way.
That's the thing. Why change something at all if no one would've noticed being there anyway?
"If we leave that shadowing someone may not buy the game! Call atlus immediately and have them change it!"
The niche are those who've probably followed the game more closely and some may not feel comfortable with so many changes being made.
kunonabi
Member
Except it isn't because the lack of a dub eliminates any chance of increasing the audience and missing "fan-service" is not the issue.
This edits transcend the whole "we're making these to increase our sales range" since they're so minute. At this point, I'm willing to believe "spite" or "we're getting paid to request edits here in America" arguments, that's how ridiculous this has gotten. Especially if you compare it to Camilla like Vena did earlier.
Nothing is consistent....
Nothing is consistent....
Found another edit being discussed, apparently they removed the pelvic shading on Tsubasa in cutscenes. When this comes out, it's going to make for one hell of a game of spot the difference.
NA on top, Japan on the bottom.
NA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNiIJtWcMIg
JP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVOh85A1lLg
This has to be some sort of joke. This is beyond unnecessary.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Why beat around the bush? The changes were related to the revealing costumes. Making them wear less revealing makes these fans uncomfortable? Somehow puts them off the game?
The lack of a dub is more than likely due to budget and time constraints. Many seem to be upset about the changes being made, fan-service or not.
The pelvic thing is a bit odd though, for some reason I instantly thought of a character from one of the most prominent DS titles:
Isn't that essentially the same outfit? Then again, that was 9 years ago...
Well... I don't know if I'd actually use that as a positive reference given what that character's appearance means in the story.
Seeing as that's not her real appearance and she's assumed the form of the "sexy girl" despite her own modest looks because she thinks she's inadequate in her real form. The juxtaposition and moral doesn't work if the "sexy girl" isn't sexy and suggestive.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
No, making changes that are far outside the jurisdiction of localisation is.
Oh, you get to decide what that is?
bishopcruz
Member
That's fine, that's a great part. In your own game, you can do what you will. I don't go seeking out fanservice myself, but it doesn't bother me.
But Nintendo's consistency isn't the issue, and I would argue, that this became more of an issue in recent years. During the GC/Wii era, I haven't been able to find many examples of censorship. Though I admit, I may have missed some.
It does change the tone and context of a particular dungeon, so I would argue that that is more than just "some image changes".
That's a fair argument. I would say that the Wii U hasn't quite proved itself as a system that has a decent number of traditional JRPG fans. I know you say most were on the fence before, but this game was absolutely a day 1 purchase for me, and I don't even own a Wii U. Now not so much.
What evidence do you have that this is the case. Now, you argue that most who won't buy the game due to censorship were on the fence to begin with, and won't make an impact. I am unsure of that, but it is likely not tens of thousands, and probably a lot less. On the other hand, at least I have seen people say that they wouldn't buy the game because of the edits. I have yet to see one say, "yknow what? I just am so offended by anime girls in bikinis that I wasn't going to buy TMS#FE, but now that Nintendo changed it, I'm a-OK!"
No one is going to hear about edits to a game, and then go "Day 1!" No parent with this game on the radar, is suddenly relieved due to minor cosmetic changes.
Not to mention the way you speak of the unedited version, you'd think the game was Senran Kagura. Nothing I have seen in the game is any worse than regular photshoots in the US, and it barely even counts as fanservice.
General JRPG fandom has had worse stuff than what is in this game for years. Nintendo also gave up on this game being a hit the second they didn't do a dub. This screams of contractual obligation. They should have just left the publishing in the US to Atlus.
Ok, so change the age to 18 and make that the extent of the changes, no one, outside of the truly hardcore like Tom from Xseed would even care. But they did more than that. A lot more. We also have no evidence that this game would have been an issue at all, OR that it would have hurt their image. It was preemptive, and a poor move, as much as you don't want to admit it.
As I said before, Nintendo's decision not to dub the game will hurt its sales far more than any edits will. However as they have already limited the market of the title, on a system that is at the end of its life, and basically dead, a system that didn't even sell that well in the first place, alienating any part of that limited market is a bad idea. Once an Anime based game isn't dubbed, you are saying that your focus is the hardcore JRPG market. That market tends to frown on things like this. At least historically.
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