Bernie Sanders demands Democratic Party reforms

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Does your country have a similar voting system?? How would you feel if a bunch of competition voted in your party to sabotage the outcome?

If independents want to vote for a non democrat, like Bernie, A) he should run independent, and B) they shouldn't hyjack that party.

Not really, much more parties to choose from here representing a wide range of themes. We choose the parties, the parties choose the people. Prime Minister is chosen by the parties that will make up the government, voters have no actual say in it. Then again the power of the prime minister is nonexistent compared to the American presidency so that's not really an issue.

The thing is that different ideologies have a chance of succeeding here in winning an election. In the US you are screwed if you are not aligned with one of the two main parties or if your ideology differs too much from the party leadership. Consolidation of power stuff like superdelegates and closed primaries don't really help with that imo.

I'm from Belgium by the way. Not really the poster child for representative democracy, I'm aware.
 
I think it's funny. Please ROCK THE VOTE and choose one of the only two viable candidates.

Unless you're a Pinko. Then you can wait until November when your vote won't matter!
 
It isn't 2000. The demographics of the United States have changed in ways that greatly empower the Democratic Party. If there's any time to embrace actual progressivism, it would be now.

Kirblar, we've been arguing about this on Gaf for nearly a year now. Seems to me that you just don't believe the US needs to move away from lasseiz-faire capitalism. I emphatically disagree.
Until the youth actually vote kirblar is right on the this.
 
You're either being hilariously defensive or not understanding.

You are attempting to argue that non-Americans mischaracterize American political culture or American political institutions, as part of your argument pushing back at people trying to situate America in political context. You weighed into this debate by for some reason questioning my nationality. When I jumped through your hoop, you said that you notice non-Americans just don't get America. The entire line of argument is offensive and nativist and you haven't even identified what it is that non-Americans, writ large, are apparently getting wrong about America. Having your loyalty or your right to participate in a discussion questioned because of where you born is just awful.

The truth is that among developed countries America is one of those that most suffers from political myopia and exceptionalism. Some of this comes from pre-independent political culture in the colonies, some from the framers, some from westward expansion, some from America's post-20th century military and economic power, and some understandably because of American institutional exceptionalism. This is a pathological problem in political discussions, where what people see as possible or desirable are coming mostly from gut checks and reactions to whatever they heard happened yesterday rather than a reasoned analysis of what people have tried and what we've learned from it. Mandatory minimums, gun culture, partisan control of elections and redistricting, OECD-worst access to healthcare, and unlimited money in politics are some of the many policies the Democratic party is against but about which public debates are derailed due to unwillingness to look abroad or through history for answers. It's hilarious and ironic that American institutional design and federalism gave birth to what Brandeis characterized as "laboratories of democracy" between the states, implying that what's great about America is a willingness to learn from successes and failures, when precisely the opposite happens so often.
 
Work on your reading comprehension. I'm explaining that a leftward shock to the Democratic party wouldn't magically ensure GOP victories nationwide. Americans are much less ideological than we like to think. Sanders and Trump both prove that unthinkable policies can be well-received by many Americans.

Ah sorry, I'm having a pre-Brexit meltdown as my fellow countrymen are seemingly about to voluntary fuck themselves over.

I come back to my previous point. The candidate which you described literally does not exist in the Democratic party because being as leftwing as Sanders means that candidate would never have been able to garner the same experience as Clinton for the precise reason that such an ideological firebrand would never have been made Secy State.

Sanders may have been received well by many Americans. Not most.
 
I think it's funny. Please ROCK THE VOTE and choose one of the only two viable candidates.

Unless you're a Pinko. Then you can wait until November when your vote won't matter!

arguing about amending the constitution and the entire functional nature of the federal government is one way to go about it sure. I mean we can all one day want to live in fantasy land
 
1 is happening. Maybe not when Bernie wants but it will happen rather soon.

2 is possible but not likely.

3 will not be happening considering that the left is scared of a candidate like Bernie and what happened to the poor right.

4 is not happening for another 2 cycles after Hillary leaves. Which isn't that bad since I think Hillary is a 1 term president.
 
You are attempting to argue that non-Americans mischaracterize American political culture or American political institutions, as part of your argument pushing back at people trying to situate America in political context. You weighed into this debate by for some reason questioning my nationality. When I jumped through your hoop, you said that you notice non-Americans just don't get America. The entire line of argument is offensive and nativist and you haven't even identified what it is that non-Americans, writ large, are apparently getting wrong about America. Having your loyalty or your right to participate in a discussion questioned because of where you born is just awful.

The truth is that among developed countries America is one of those that most suffers from political myopia and exceptionalism. Some of this comes from pre-independent political culture in the colonies, some from the framers, some from westward expansion, some from America's post-20th century military and economic power, and some understandably because of American institutional exceptionalism. This is a pathological problem in political discussions, where what people see as possible or desirable are coming mostly from gut checks and reactions to whatever they heard happened yesterday rather than a reasoned analysis of what people have tried and what we've learned from it. Mandatory minimums, gun culture, partisan control of elections and redistricting, OECD-worst access to healthcare, and unlimited money in politics are some of the many policies the Democratic party is against but about which public debates are derailed due to unwillingness to look abroad or through history for answers. It's hilarious and ironic that American institutional design and federalism gave birth to what Brandeis characterized as "laboratories of democracy" between the states, implying that what's great about America is a willingness to learn from successes and failures, when precisely the opposite happens so often.

I thought that your original post was condescending and nonconstructive, so I replied in kind.

Not sure where you got the part where I think that all foreigners are clueless about America and shouldn't comment about it.
 
i'm not reading any posts here that properly explain why removing superdelegates and closed primaries would be a good thing for everyone and not just for independents to hijack a different political party than their own.

also, those of you getting close to saying a pure popular vote would be better scare me. there's a reason the system (and the EC for instance) exists and functions the way it does and has for so many years. populism can be dangerous, period, along with subsequent ideologues and demagogues

losers demanding changing the rules for their own benefit can be as well.
 
googleplex said:
5) Each Southern black votes will count as 3/5 of a vote.
6) Each Reddit upvotes counts as double the votes.

7) You get as many votes as rallies you attend. Attend five rallies? You get to vote five times!
 
I'm getting pretty tired of Bernie thinking that any policy position which diverges from his by even a little bit is no longer progressive.
 
I can give you multiple,

1) plularity is not majority ideally you want additional ballots where ppl drop off revote on new ballot etc
2) it's a party and you're well within your rights to go as an independent
3) the whole concept of why we just do votes on any legislation as a general populace vote

1) A agree that runoff votes would be better, but a plurality is all that's required for a FPTP system
2) That has nothing to do with the party honoring the results of the election they decided to hold
3) Because in representative democracies, representatives are supposed to have political and legal knowledge to craft and approve legislation for their constituents. Delegates just vote for the candidate that the people were trying to vote for to begin with.
 
arguing about amending the constitution and the entire functional nature of the federal government is one way to go about it sure. I mean we can all one day want to live in fantasy land

Where in the constitution does it mention two political parties exerting extreme power over the election of governmental agents and officers?

Closed parties make it so this political cabal is never threatened.
 
This is such a bad look on anybody. People might not like Clinton, but everyone hates a sore loser.

Say what you will, but this was pure class.
 
Where in the constitution does it mention two political parties exerting extreme power over the election of governmental agents and officers?

Closed parties make it so this political cabal is never threatened.

Electoral college + first past the post = no more than two parties will ever be viable.
 
Where in the constitution does it mention two political parties exerting extreme power over the election of governmental agents and officers?

Closed parties make it so this political cabal is never threatened.
But parties aren't closed. You can come and go as you please.
 
I thought that your original post was condescending and nonconstructive, so I replied in kind.

My original post, which identified political myopia as a problem in America, in response to someone saying they were sick of people saying what America should do [by referencing other countries] because context means things can't compared? Or my original post where I responded to someone saying they don't give a shit about how other countries work?

And even if you believed me to be "nonconstructive", responding to nonconstructive stuff with blatant America First nativism seems not in kind, but an abusive escalation.

Not sure where you got the part where I think that all foreigners are clueless about America and shouldn't comment about it.

The argument that you believed was condescending and nonconstructive was me suggesting that Americans should a) look abroad and b) access those abroad looking in, and you replied to it by questioning my nationality, and then when I jumped through your hoop you told me about foreigners unfairly judging America.
 
Where in the constitution does it mention two political parties exerting extreme power over the election of governmental agents and officers?

Closed parties make it so this political cabal is never threatened.

Nothing says that Bernie Sanders can't become a Democrat.

Nothing says that people who want to vote for Bernie Sanders can't become Democrats.

It shocks me that people are willing to bend over backwards to defend the idea of superdelegates.

Try and actually imagine a world where party insiders actually overturn the vote of the people where the people are like "yeah okay we're cool with that". If the superdelegates actually overturned the majority of pledged delegates it would be chaos.

Get your heads out of the mechanics of this one individual race, please.

But such a thing has literally never happened...

In fact that's exactly what super delegates are designed to protect against.
 
It shocks me that people are willing to bend over backwards to defend the idea of superdelegates.

Try and actually imagine a world where party insiders actually overturn the vote of the people where the people are like "yeah okay we're cool with that". If the superdelegates actually overturned the majority of pledged delegates it would be chaos.

Get your heads out of the mechanics of this one individual race, please.
 
It shocks me that people are willing to bend over backwards to defend the idea of superdelegates.

Try and actually imagine a world where party insiders actually overturn the vote of the people where the people are like "yeah okay we're cool with that". If the superdelegates actually overturned the majority of pledged delegates it would be chaos.

Get your heads out of the mechanics of this individual race, please.
But they haven't overturned the will of the people thus far, because they know the blowback that would happen. This is why Clinton didn't try to go after them in '08. The incentives keep them in line.

They're there to settle a 3-way+ race, or to prevent a national nightmare (Trump) from occurring.
 
Good, hope he gets them.


I mean, I like the other candidate so fuck you! Superdelegates forever!
Super delegates are absolutely necessary to avoid a Trump like situation on the left where the voters pick a unwinnable awful candidate.
 
Good, hope he gets them.


I mean, I like the other candidate so fuck you! Superdelegates forever!

and the Superdelegates had no effect on the outcome of Pledged Delegates this year.

take them away, she would have clinched pledged and popular regardless
 
But they haven't overturned the will of the people thus far, because they know the blowback that would happen. This is why Clinton didn't try to go after them in '08. The incentives keep them in line.

They're there to settle a 3-way+ race, or to prevent a national nightmare (Trump) from occurring.

Okay, so the superdelegates haven't overturned the will of the people yet, but they're there to to overturn the will of the people just in case.

I'm sure the blowback absolutely will not happen in that just in case scenario. I'm sure that won't split the party or anything.

/s
 
It shocks me that people are willing to bend over backwards to defend the idea of superdelegates.

Try and actually imagine a world where party insiders actually overturn the vote of the people where the people are like "yeah okay we're cool with that". If the superdelegates actually overturned the majority of pledged delegates it would be chaos.

Get your heads out of the mechanics of this one individual race, please.

When have they overturned the will of the people?
 
Super delegates are absolutely necessary to avoid a Trump like situation on the left where the voters pick a unwinnable awful candidate.

I don't particularly care about political teams, so I am not sure it matters. I also may fear Democracy less than you.

and the Superdelegates had no effect on the outcome of Pledged Delegates this year.

take them away, she would have clinched pledged and popular regardless

What if we fix stupid things before they affect us?
 
Okay, so the superdelegates haven't overturned the will of the people yet, but they're there to to overturn the will of the people just in case.

I'm sure the blowback absolutely will not happen in that just in case scenario. I'm sure that won't split the party of anything.

/s
In the case of a Trump, the blowback is worth it. It's less damage than actually nominating a crazy person, because you're pissing off your own side, not the voters in the middle.
 
Because there are only two parties, allowing the parties to control who is the nominee unfairly restricts the political spectrum of candidates that every American will have to choose from in the general election.

Back during Nader's reign of terror, one of the arguments against third party so-called 'spoiler' candidates was that the democrat and republican primaries allowed a diverse field of candidates to be presented before the election. But that's only true if every American can vote in the primaries. If not, then we have an oligarchy with a small group of people determining who is permitted to run for president. The same problem exists with super delegates.



The reaction to this seems dramatically disproportionate to what's actually being proposed.



Yikes.



This. It's driving me insane because I don't even like Bernie. But Hilary's supporters are an absolute nightmare.

Here's the thing, Bernie and his supporters keep railing against the ESTABLISHMENT like were living in cold war Germany and we've been stripped of all our civil liberties and were just a destitute nation of vagabonds. But some of us are ok with the ESTABLISHMENT because as black man they made it so I can share a classroom with white people or as a gay man that i'm afforded certain protections that will keep me from getting fired for living my truth. So when someone want to come in from the outside, shout at us how were being mislead and don't know any better and dismantle a system that has lifted so many up, just to fit his narrow world view of how everything should work people like me have a problem with that and will fight to defend it while still trying to improve it from the inside. If he was really about his shit he would've been trying to solve these issues DECADES ago, you know, maybe after he marched with MLK, but where was he since then?
 
I was just about to say this lmao. Y'all loved him like a month ago.

He isn't saying these things because he's a loser, he's the only candidate who cared about changing shit.
This is bullshit. He IS saying this because he's a loser. He's not campaigning to remove caucuses because they helped him. He's campaigning for open primaries because he thinks they do help him. He's asking for DWS to be removed because he's convinced she was out to get him. He's asking to remove supers because they're voting against him (even though just half a week ago he was campaigning that supers should vote for him and ignore the people's voice).

Lots of people in Washington want to change shit. All of the people running for President want to change shit. Its in their platforms. Its WHY they're running. No one is running on, "things are really great right now, lets change nothing". Even fucking Obama isn't happy with how things are right now and wants to change shit.
 
When have they overturned the will of the people?

They haven't, yet. But they exist to do that very thing. So if you are against the idea of them overturning the will of the people, why have them?

In the case of a Trump, the blowback is worth it. It's less damage than actually nominating a crazy person, because you're pissing off your own side, not the voters in the middle.

If you split the party you're going to have an unwinnable candidate anyway.
 
Nothing says that Bernie Sanders can't become a Democrat.

Nothing says that people who want to vote for Bernie Sanders can't become Democrats.

Everything says Bernie Sanders can't win as a non-Democrat.

Everything says people can only be franchised if they conform to a party they do not believe in.

It's an additional barrier that makes it more difficult for non-establishment candidates to influence elections. Candidates that may appeal more to independents. One more barrier than is necessary to represent people who could potentially vote for a democratic candidate in November.

I think it's reasonable to want candidates with different levels of connection to the party to have a chance to compete. Preventing outsiders from voting protects party dogma.

This is my opinion. Many are happy with the slow change as it usually has been. I think new ideas and less entrenched party lines improve the democratic process.
 
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Everything says Bernie Sanders can't win as a non-Democrat.

Everything says people can only be franchised if they conform to a party they do not believe in.

It's an additional barrier that makes it more difficult for non-establishment candidates to influence elections. Candidates that may appeal more to independents. One more barrier than is necessary to represent people who could potentially vote for a democratic candidate in November.

I think it's reasonable to want candidates with different levels of connection to the party to have a chance to compete. Preventing outsiders from voting protects party dogma.

This is my opinion. Many are happy with the slow change as it usually has been. I think new ideas and less entrenched party lines improve the democratic process.

Nothing is stopping people from voting. If your message doesn't resonate with the majority of people it doesn't matter if you're a Democrat or Republican. Being loud isn't and popular isnt going to win you anything.
 
They haven't, yet. But they exist to do that very thing. So if you are against the idea of them overturning the will of the people, why have them?



If you split the party you're going to have an unwinnable candidate anyway.

cause we live in a world of checks and balances.
 
Sanders was an independent, he could have ran as an independent and not have to deal with the DNC at all. Why didn't he?
 
It shocks me that people are willing to bend over backwards to defend the idea of superdelegates.

Try and actually imagine a world where party insiders actually overturn the vote of the people where the people are like "yeah okay we're cool with that". If the superdelegates actually overturned the majority of pledged delegates it would be chaos.

Get your heads out of the mechanics of this one individual race, please.

Its probably more likely that a system without super delegates would overturn the will of the people. Super delegates are also there to avoid a brokered convention where backroom deals and promises can lead to the candidate without the most votes or delegates getting the nomination.
 
Correct, but you're limiting the fallout by putting up a dome.

If you let a Trump happen, you're letting the meltdown go all the way.

I don't think this is true. The Republican party is highly likely to lose in November but their endorsement strategy is probably going to hold the party together long enough that the blame can be shifted on Trump, and then they can put forth a viable candidate for 2020.

Either way, people keep talking about some character like Trump emerging in the Democratic party and I sure as hell don't see it.
 
Sanders was an independent, he could have ran as an independent and not have to deal with the DNC at all. Why didn't he?

Or if he wasn't such a purist and not so stubborn he couldve joined the Democrats and pushed for reform.

A third party is not going to happen in modern politics and he should realize that a long time ago.
 
I don't think this is true. The Republican party is highly likely to lose in November but their endorsement strategy is probably going to hold the party together long enough that the blame can be shifted on Trump, and then they can put forth a viable candidate for 2020.

Either way, people keep talking about some character like Trump emerging in the Democratic party and I sure as hell don't see it.
They are going to take damage in the House/Senate. More than if they had "not Trump."
 
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