LegendofDragoonLives
Member
So gist of it is UC is better than Theatrical release then? Might get it on bluray and check it out.
Batman v Superman Spoiler Thread: Don't believe everything you read, Son
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GringoSuave89
Banned
Yes sir. They never call him KGBeast, but they do show/say his real name.
It is a much better cut. To the point I'm pretty mad that WB/Snyder let the theatrical release out the door. I get not wanting a 3 hour long movie in the theater, but the stuff that was cut was pretty important
brochiller
Member
I've only seen people say positive things about it who have seen it. Hopefully it's not a repeat of the hype before the theatrical version but this is coming from more than just a couple individuals.
yanipheonu
Member
Problem with that is it's still really contrived and there's no way to know if that's what Superman meant because the movie doesn't tell us. It's sloppy writing.
So... does Cavill get any more to actually say or do or express in this cut?
I mean I know there are more scenes with him, but the biggest issue with his Superman is that we have no real perspective of how he views what he does or why he does it. He's just Superman because... I dunno, the fiction demands he be Superman. He goes to Capital Hill, and you'd think that that's the chance for him to declare and defend himself, but no, EXPLOSION TIME! Is any of that alleviated?
I mean I know there are more scenes with him, but the biggest issue with his Superman is that we have no real perspective of how he views what he does or why he does it. He's just Superman because... I dunno, the fiction demands he be Superman. He goes to Capital Hill, and you'd think that that's the chance for him to declare and defend himself, but no, EXPLOSION TIME! Is any of that alleviated?
beyond_death
Member
The UC is very much an improved version of the film. It should be considered the real version in my opinion. I wonder if there will be anyone that prefers the theatrical cut over the UC when this is released to the masses next week.
People are already complaining on Reddit that Lois' scenes were cut down and that "Lex is so much more cold, chilling, calculating" in the theatrical cut.
wut
Absolutely, yes, this cut makes things even for Superman and Batman, I think if you count scenes now Clark miiight be above Bruce this time. He's still moody most of the time, but he's a character with lines now. Some of them quite charming.
No way in hell
beyond_death
Member
broncobuster
Banned
I've yet to see the whole ultimate cut. Of what I have scene there are but three super minor parts I'd give the theatrical.
About a second of Superman entering Africa with a sonic boom is replaced with flying into a missile. Batman flinging a crate creates blood splatter on the wall. And it's cool to see, but Superman throwing Batman into an alley before pushing him through a building is redundant.
Discotheque
Banned
Damn, I hate when directors cuts mess with the good scenes. Superman's entrance in Africa was really well done in the theatrical version. He looked so omnipotent.
Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!
One of my biggest problem with the Martha scene is that, well, using your parents name instead of referring to them as mother or mama seems symbolic of disrespect and irreverance to your mother.
Bart sure isn't being respectful calling his dad by his name.
It actually would have been more interesting if Superman had reverted to a childlike "mama...mama..." showing the rough state he was in.
Like a shell shocked soldier going from bravado to childlike behavior.
Superman: Save Mama
Batman: WHO IS SHE?
Superman: Mu... Mummy.
Batman: WHERE IS SHE?
Lois: It's his Mum.
Batman: TELL ME HER NAME.
Just had the opportunity to watch this cut.
It's an improvement particularly in the first act of the movie.
Chronologically these were the additions/changes I saw:
That said a lot of the same faults of the movie exist. There is still a huge chunk of the movie where nothing exciting happens (I counted it, in the extended edition over an hour passes by between the opening Metropolis scene and the Knightmare scene), just a bunch of development and exposition which slogs down the movie. Tone and story elements are still the same just with more holes filled in and better scene to scene transition earlyon. There are still way too many side plots in the movie like originally and the vision sequences and JL tie-ins are still intrusive. The ending fight scene is still a big CG mess.
People who liked the TC will enjoy this version quite a bit more I feel. People who hated original will still hate it, maybe even more because it's just simply longer.
Also I don't think this version of the movie is very R rated at all, it's a hard PG-13 at best. I am surprised the MPA rated it that high to begin with.
It's an improvement particularly in the first act of the movie.
Chronologically these were the additions/changes I saw:
*In the opening prologue, there's a better close up of Martha's face just before she is about to get shot.
*When Bruce is saving people in the aftermath, there's a shot of a lady leading a bunch of kids through the destruction. That felt very surreal and weird for some reason, I can understand why it was cut.
*Africa scene is a lot more fleshed out and makes a whole lot more sense especially in its transition to the senate hearing with the African lady. This is also the first time where the R rating is felt because people are burnt to a crisp and their bodies are piled up.
*Before the Batman intro scene, the cops are seen watching a football game and I think Vic (Cyborg is in it), it was hard to tell. A fight breaks out in the game and I guess that's why Perry was so gungho about Clark covering the game.
*Scene of Lois taking out her bloody clothes after getting back and then figuring out there's a bullet in her book before she starts prying it open like in the TC.
*Clark takes a ferry over to Gotham and then a bus ride to check up on the African lady who was complaining about Superman. She wasn't at her apartment. He runs into that guy who is ranting about Batman and how he has a new kind of "mean" to him now. Which makes a following scene about Clark talking about Batman to Perry makes a lot more sense (because you know he has actually been in Gotham talking to locals and stuff).
*Clark has reservations about Lois going to investigate the bullet in DC while Perry tells Clark to go to the charity event that Luthor is holding. Interesting thing here is that Clark was invited by name by Luthor so that's why Clark is there which pretty much tells us that Lex knew who Clark is even before this very moment.
*Naked scene of Bruce in the shower (can see his ass).
*After the Superman saving people montage, he calls Martha and they have a chat about how they wish life was simpler but it isn't.
*Lois gets the bullet analyzed by Jena Malone's character. No idea who she is.
*Clark back in his office investigating the Batman, learns about the Bat Brand.
*Scene of the dude Batman branded earlier in prison. He's begging not to be put into prison because "they are gonna kill me" which transitions well into Scoot McNairy's character being bailed out of jail by Lex.
*Scoot McNairy is in the Senator's office and he has extended dialogue about "how he can't piss standing up".
*This is interesting. The Russian guy makes a call to some guy in prison to take out the guy in the Bat Brand. Seems like that wasn't just a random act of violence in prison but a targeted kill by Lex Luthor to further fan the flame of the Batman/Superman conflict (and the whole judge, jury thing).
*John Colbert seen on TV talking about Superman which transitions into the Bruce/Diana in the museum. It flows better than how I am describing it to be. There's a museum curator who introduces the sword of Alexander to Diana.
*More scenes of Clark investigating this time at the prison where the inmate was killed. He has a conversation with the inmate's wife/SO and she is pissed about the Batman obviously. The trailer was misleading as most thought she was talking about Superman.
*Scene of the African lady being hunted down by the Russian guy, then she goes to the Senator to tell her that she wasn't telling the truth about Superman.
*Lois tips off Perry about the set up and that Luthor is behind all of this, as usual Perry says screw you. Meanwhile the Senator is starting to realize something is up because of her talk with the African lady and is very suspicious of Luthor now. Then the African lady gets assassinated by the Russian by throwing her in front of a moving subway train.
*Superman seen helping the victims of the Senate bombing in the aftermath, then flies off.
*Cut to Alfred chopping wood in the forest then he goes in to see the news about the bombing and gets legit shook.
*Some security footage of Batman swooping in and then swooping out a guard when he broke into Lex's place. Not a lot here sadly.
*Turns out Lex Luthor was feeding the media evidence about Superman's involvement in the bombing that's why the media was so hell belt on putting the blame on Superman for the bombing.
*Lois goes into the wheelchair guy's apartment which has been tagged all around with evidence. She sees all the food in the apartment and realizes that the wheelchair guy didn't go into the Senate thinking he was gonna die.
*Now here's the DOOZY folks. Lois had Jena Malone do the analysis on the bombing and she figures out the bullet and the bomb material were related. In addition, she finds out that the wheelchair was lined with LEAD so Superman couldn't see through it! That's one big plothole covered right there about people saying why Superman couldn't just see through the wheelchair for the bomb.
*Superman first throws around Batman once more before taking him up on the rooftop. Rest of the fight was still the same mostly, to my disappointment.
*Slightly extended Batman vs Luthor goon fight scene, more bone breaking than I remembered in the TC.
*The police show up at the warehouse where Batman fought the goons and Martha is taken into police custody while the Batjet flies away above.
*Nothing significant was added to the Doomsday fight, maybe more zoom on the Superman being impaled part.
*Of course there's that deleted Lex scene at the end, happens right after Superman's death.
*Perry White and the other reporter girl are seem prominently at Clark's funeral, I may have missed this in the TC. I always felt it weird that Perry wouldn't attend his funeral. Also apparently Bruce Wayne paid for the funeral proceedings.
*I think they re-arranged the final funeral scene + prison Luthor scene so that all the funeral scenes are all just continuous with each other and the prison scene is all at the end. I remember there being cuts going from Luthor in prison back to funeral and stuff. More extended talk between Batman and Luthor though, he tells Luthor that he's going to Arkham Asylum via transfer he put through.
*When Bruce is saving people in the aftermath, there's a shot of a lady leading a bunch of kids through the destruction. That felt very surreal and weird for some reason, I can understand why it was cut.
*Africa scene is a lot more fleshed out and makes a whole lot more sense especially in its transition to the senate hearing with the African lady. This is also the first time where the R rating is felt because people are burnt to a crisp and their bodies are piled up.
*Before the Batman intro scene, the cops are seen watching a football game and I think Vic (Cyborg is in it), it was hard to tell. A fight breaks out in the game and I guess that's why Perry was so gungho about Clark covering the game.
*Scene of Lois taking out her bloody clothes after getting back and then figuring out there's a bullet in her book before she starts prying it open like in the TC.
*Clark takes a ferry over to Gotham and then a bus ride to check up on the African lady who was complaining about Superman. She wasn't at her apartment. He runs into that guy who is ranting about Batman and how he has a new kind of "mean" to him now. Which makes a following scene about Clark talking about Batman to Perry makes a lot more sense (because you know he has actually been in Gotham talking to locals and stuff).
*Clark has reservations about Lois going to investigate the bullet in DC while Perry tells Clark to go to the charity event that Luthor is holding. Interesting thing here is that Clark was invited by name by Luthor so that's why Clark is there which pretty much tells us that Lex knew who Clark is even before this very moment.
*Naked scene of Bruce in the shower (can see his ass).
*After the Superman saving people montage, he calls Martha and they have a chat about how they wish life was simpler but it isn't.
*Lois gets the bullet analyzed by Jena Malone's character. No idea who she is.
*Clark back in his office investigating the Batman, learns about the Bat Brand.
*Scene of the dude Batman branded earlier in prison. He's begging not to be put into prison because "they are gonna kill me" which transitions well into Scoot McNairy's character being bailed out of jail by Lex.
*Scoot McNairy is in the Senator's office and he has extended dialogue about "how he can't piss standing up".
*This is interesting. The Russian guy makes a call to some guy in prison to take out the guy in the Bat Brand. Seems like that wasn't just a random act of violence in prison but a targeted kill by Lex Luthor to further fan the flame of the Batman/Superman conflict (and the whole judge, jury thing).
*John Colbert seen on TV talking about Superman which transitions into the Bruce/Diana in the museum. It flows better than how I am describing it to be. There's a museum curator who introduces the sword of Alexander to Diana.
*More scenes of Clark investigating this time at the prison where the inmate was killed. He has a conversation with the inmate's wife/SO and she is pissed about the Batman obviously. The trailer was misleading as most thought she was talking about Superman.
*Scene of the African lady being hunted down by the Russian guy, then she goes to the Senator to tell her that she wasn't telling the truth about Superman.
*Lois tips off Perry about the set up and that Luthor is behind all of this, as usual Perry says screw you. Meanwhile the Senator is starting to realize something is up because of her talk with the African lady and is very suspicious of Luthor now. Then the African lady gets assassinated by the Russian by throwing her in front of a moving subway train.
*Superman seen helping the victims of the Senate bombing in the aftermath, then flies off.
*Cut to Alfred chopping wood in the forest then he goes in to see the news about the bombing and gets legit shook.
*Some security footage of Batman swooping in and then swooping out a guard when he broke into Lex's place. Not a lot here sadly.
*Turns out Lex Luthor was feeding the media evidence about Superman's involvement in the bombing that's why the media was so hell belt on putting the blame on Superman for the bombing.
*Lois goes into the wheelchair guy's apartment which has been tagged all around with evidence. She sees all the food in the apartment and realizes that the wheelchair guy didn't go into the Senate thinking he was gonna die.
*Now here's the DOOZY folks. Lois had Jena Malone do the analysis on the bombing and she figures out the bullet and the bomb material were related. In addition, she finds out that the wheelchair was lined with LEAD so Superman couldn't see through it! That's one big plothole covered right there about people saying why Superman couldn't just see through the wheelchair for the bomb.
*Superman first throws around Batman once more before taking him up on the rooftop. Rest of the fight was still the same mostly, to my disappointment.
*Slightly extended Batman vs Luthor goon fight scene, more bone breaking than I remembered in the TC.
*The police show up at the warehouse where Batman fought the goons and Martha is taken into police custody while the Batjet flies away above.
*Nothing significant was added to the Doomsday fight, maybe more zoom on the Superman being impaled part.
*Of course there's that deleted Lex scene at the end, happens right after Superman's death.
*Perry White and the other reporter girl are seem prominently at Clark's funeral, I may have missed this in the TC. I always felt it weird that Perry wouldn't attend his funeral. Also apparently Bruce Wayne paid for the funeral proceedings.
*I think they re-arranged the final funeral scene + prison Luthor scene so that all the funeral scenes are all just continuous with each other and the prison scene is all at the end. I remember there being cuts going from Luthor in prison back to funeral and stuff. More extended talk between Batman and Luthor though, he tells Luthor that he's going to Arkham Asylum via transfer he put through.
That said a lot of the same faults of the movie exist. There is still a huge chunk of the movie where nothing exciting happens (I counted it, in the extended edition over an hour passes by between the opening Metropolis scene and the Knightmare scene), just a bunch of development and exposition which slogs down the movie. Tone and story elements are still the same just with more holes filled in and better scene to scene transition earlyon. There are still way too many side plots in the movie like originally and the vision sequences and JL tie-ins are still intrusive. The ending fight scene is still a big CG mess.
People who liked the TC will enjoy this version quite a bit more I feel. People who hated original will still hate it, maybe even more because it's just simply longer.
Also I don't think this version of the movie is very R rated at all, it's a hard PG-13 at best. I am surprised the MPA rated it that high to begin with.
Most other places kept the rating the same as the theatrical cut, lol.
Doesn't seem like "padding" at all to me. Seems like connective plot tissue that's kind of crucial to understanding the nuts and bolts of the story
Most of it is legit, the issue is that even in the theatrical cut the movie felt padded and just had way too many plot points going on at once. Instead of just taking away entire sub plots they took the route of taking off scenes from all of the sub plots which resulted in everything feeling undercooked.
I felt the Clark and Lois investigation were pretty integral stuff as were the finer details of Luthor's plot. You always knew Luthor was pulling the strings in the TC but in this version the extent of his plotting is much more large scale.
The UC also addresses some plot hole stuff that people were like "LOL why would Superman do that?" like:
*Why didn't Superman stay after the Senate bombing to help the victims? Well he did, it was just cut out.
*Why didn't Superman see the bomb in the wheelchair? He couldn't because it was specifically lined with lead by Luthor.
*How did Lois Lane have "proof" of Luthor's involvement in the whole thing with just a random bullet? She had a lot more proof than that.
*Why did Clark hate against Batman after just seeing one news report on him? He was actually in Gotham interacting with people there and investigating, a lot of people were scared of Batman and disapproved of him.
*Why did Perry wanted the game covered so much? A fight broke out in it.
*Why was Luthor mental at the end? He had a communion with an alien.
Plus everything related to the African subplot, made way more sense in this version than in the original... I don't think anyone can deny that.
bishopcruz
Member
I liked the film initially, so take that how you will,
I just saw the UE, and it is definitely a much better, clearer movie now than it was in the TC. I will say though, that the early problems the movie had aren't completely resolved in the new cut, some of the dialogue still kinda comes out of nowhere, and it is pretty long. It does however need to be there, The thing is, all of the new scenes actually give the ending more resonance, hell the give the last two acts more resonance. Specifically the scene at capitol hill is AMAZING in the UE, it just works better now, more lead in, better pacing, a much greater feeling of dead, actual understanding as to why Lex did it. It really kicked things into high gear, and from then on the movie now works better than it ever did.
Tonally the film is of course the same, but having the extra scenes with Clark, Lois, and Lex make the film stronger. Lois no longer feels like she's just taking up screen time.
I just saw the UE, and it is definitely a much better, clearer movie now than it was in the TC. I will say though, that the early problems the movie had aren't completely resolved in the new cut, some of the dialogue still kinda comes out of nowhere, and it is pretty long. It does however need to be there, The thing is, all of the new scenes actually give the ending more resonance, hell the give the last two acts more resonance. Specifically the scene at capitol hill is AMAZING in the UE, it just works better now, more lead in, better pacing, a much greater feeling of dead, actual understanding as to why Lex did it. It really kicked things into high gear, and from then on the movie now works better than it ever did.
Tonally the film is of course the same, but having the extra scenes with Clark, Lois, and Lex make the film stronger. Lois no longer feels like she's just taking up screen time.
That doesn't sit well with me. How did Lex know about Supes inability to see through lead. I can see how he'd workout his secret identity, literally anyone not a total moron can. However, how would he know he can't see through lead? How would he have the opportunity to test that? From Zod? Mother boxes? Ship AI? Same for Kryptonite.
He's one of the smartest men on the Earth and Superman has been active for 18 months. If he could get Batman to fight Superman it's not hard to imagine him doing tests while Superman was active.
Lex likely didn't know, but even if Supes had stopped it they could spin the "he makes us afraid" angle. And Supermam would be full of guilt at the idea he'd be indirectly responsible for attempted terrorism.
cr0w
Old Member
I explained this earlier. Think about this as if you're a scientist.
In Man of Steel, Superman shows and proves that he can see through solid objects when he's being interrogated. He tells Hamilton what's in his pocket when he's in the other room.
Now assume Lex finds this out. Then Lex takes what is scientifically proved with x-rays, in that they can't penetrate lead. He extrapolates that, if Clark's x-ray vision works the same, it has the same limitations. He lines it with lead as a precaution, assuming Supes' abilities line up with known science.
Lex is a brilliant scientist, it's not hard to believe he could figure this out.
Unless you're the world's greatest detective
I think the difference is Bruce never tried. It never occurred to him that an alien with near omnipotent power would try to fit in. That's a fairly important detail that gets overlooked for a silly joke. That's a fairly common blind spot for Luthor normally who is, depending on the day, smarter than Bruce.
Normally, his identity is really difficult to deduce though. I mean, yeah, for any of us the glasses disguise is terrible and obvious but in-universe for the comics, it's an accepted plot contrivance. Except in these movies, Lois figured it out with relative ease, and Luthor with such nonchalance it was done off-screen. In BvS, Bruce never bothering to investigate Superman's origins in spite of his detective background is a dumb plot coincidence that's necessary for the sake of both the primary conflict between the titular protagonists as well as the conflict's resolution, which is why I think it's a fair criticism and an example of really poor writing.
Who said he didn't? The "freaks dressed like clowns" sounded a lot like he was being facetious.
He doesn't know Clark's mom's name is Martha. If he knew, the turn later on wouldn't make what little sense it does.
The freaks dressed like clowns line seemed to be more of a jab at the Daily Planet than it was at Clark personally.
Ok fair enough at the interview interrogation. The limitations bit is still kind of a reach but I guess it makes sense. You pretty much win a no prize. Here's something I thought about, Lex has an army of people keeping track of Supes and Clark, what's stopping them from spilling the beans? Strict NDAs? Bribery?
Did Bruce not realise Clark was Superman at the banquet? The Lex thinking Superman would work a 9-5 and take the train every morning as kinda stupid makes sense. Give me Superman's powers I am seeing a new city every day and funding any entertainment or shit by winning enough at Casino's to fly under the radar but live comfortably
It's part of the plot though. The whole point is Bruce's sort of blind rage. This is the same guy who completely ignored Alfred's warnings and told him he was straight up going to murder Superman. Remember? "If there's even a 1% chance..." Bruce is not thinking rationally about this. He doesn't care who Superman is. It would be out of character within the movie if his motivations suddenly went away because he decided to find out Superman had a human identity. And even if he does, what does that change? Does Superman being Clark Kent somehow negate what happened in Metropolis two years before?
Here's the thing. He might have known. The movie never explicitly states that Bruce didn't know who he was. The reason people assume that is because they misunderstand the Martha thing. It wasn't just the name Martha that triggered Batman's PTSD. It was the situation. I'm sure Bruce doesn't go around having an episode every time someone mentions the name Martha.
If Bruce's rage has really turned him into such a stupendous moron that he can't fathom how investigating everything he can about Superman might be advantageous to helping eliminate him, then it kind of nullifies a lot of the tension of the plot. I mean, when every answer to this comes down to "Batman was too mad to be rational" then you're no longer dealing with a character, just this angry ball of angerness. What is supposed to be compelling about this?
Lets pretend for a moment he wouldn't have a revelation about Clark's mother wouldn't have changed his mind. So here you have an easy power play against him, basically the same thing Luthor did. "Hey, Superman, do as I say, or I cut your mother's throat." From there, just make him eat a chunk of Kryptonite and proceed from there. The only reason that Luthor, probably the only man in the city that hates Superman more than Batman, fully beat Superman without ever throwing a punch is because he did what Batman is apparently too much in a blind rage to do.
I am curious what they cut out in the 4hr work cut of the film. I would imagine this sort of stuff would have been investigated and tested. Imagine if you saw deleted scenes of Lex staging scenarios where Clark is forced to rescue random people and Alex tests his powers or the "Day the world is introduced to the Superman" opening with scenes from Lex's perspective and not just Bruce's
cr0w
Old Member
Yeah, that's the plot, and I'm saying it's not very good!
Except that's exactly what happens in the movie for Bruce.
Characters can be irrational, for good and bad reasons, and it can work as long as the behavior can be at least somewhat empathized with despite not adhering to reason. But flipping from being completely irrational to completely rational on a dime has to be done with some finesse which Snyder did not do at all. It would have made more sense to me, considering Bruce's irrational behavior and inability to see things clearly that you pointed out, that he would have known all of Clark's background to begin with and simply not cared. In which case, the whole Martha bit would have to have been replaced with something else because it's something he should have already known about.
In either case, the movie still fails to give a good explanation of why Clark is suddenly absolved of all the grievances Bruce had with him just because he happened to have a human mother he cared for.
Yeah, that's the plot, and I'm saying it's not very good!
Except that's exactly what happens in the movie for Bruce.
Characters can be irrational, for good and bad reasons, and it can work as long as the behavior can be at least somewhat empathized with despite not adhering to reason. But flipping from being completely irrational to completely rational on a dime has to be done with some finesse which Snyder did not do at all. It would have made more sense to me, considering Bruce's irrational behavior and inability to see things clearly that you pointed out, that he would have known all of Clark's background to begin with and simply not cared. In which case, the whole Martha bit would have to have been replaced with something else because it's something he should have already known about.
In either case, the movie still fails to give a good explanation of why Clark is suddenly absolved of all the grievances Bruce had with him just because he happened to have a human mother he cared for.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wzUx938YcBU
This makes no sense. Batman is angry but that doesn't mean he's just going to start taking hostages and making demands.
Yeah, that's the plot, and I'm saying it's not very good!
Except that's exactly what happens in the movie for Bruce.
Characters can be irrational, for good and bad reasons, and it can work as long as the behavior can be at least somewhat empathized with despite not adhering to reason. But flipping from being completely irrational to completely rational on a dime has to be done with some finesse which Snyder did not do at all. It would have made more sense to me, considering Bruce's irrational behavior and inability to see things clearly that you pointed out, that he would have known all of Clark's background to begin with and simply not cared. In which case, the whole Martha bit would have to have been replaced with something else because it's something he should have already known about.
In either case, the movie still fails to give a good explanation of why Clark is suddenly absolved of all the grievances Bruce had with him just because he happened to have a human mother he cared for.
And again, it wasn't the name alone. It was the situation. Even if Bruce had known beforehand that Clark had a human mother named Martha it wouldn't have pieced together or him until then anyway. Sitting at his computer he wouldn't have felt like Joe Chill. It wasn't until he's standing over Superman and Lois (who is afraid and trying to protect him (literally in the face of the spear like his own mother was in the face of the gun)) that he realizes. More finesse? Sure but this idea that it was just uttering the name Martha and suddenly they are "besties" is ignorant.
I've seen that video and understand the scene just fine. That doesn't mean it was at all convincing or a satisfying resolution for me.
Why not?
No, seriously, if we're in the depths of his anger of a man who is already perfectly willing to kill people willy-nilly, and we're dealing with what he classifies as a world ending threat, why is threatening the life of one woman not an acceptable means of action to detaining him?
Hell, he could lie about it if you think he's still not hard enough to murder innocent woman. It's not like Superman will know, just have her placed in a secret location somewhere he can't find her and tell Supes she'll die if he doesn't comply.
There's no real reason not to except for the fact that it would be too heinous a thing to consider in the traditional batman interpretation...but this isn't the traditional batman interpretation, a man who is completely lost in anger and hatred. He's already a shitbag, seeking to murder an innocent being just for existing with too much power. The only real change here is that by doing this, he'll be a competent shitbag, rather than one who does not see the advantage of investigating your enemy.
Well I bought it on Cineplex, that's how I'm watching it.
cr0w
Old Member
Yeah, that's the plot, and I'm saying it's not very good!
Except that's exactly what happens in the movie for Bruce.
Characters can be irrational, for good and bad reasons, and it can work as long as the behavior can be at least somewhat empathized with despite not adhering to reason. But flipping from being completely irrational to completely rational on a dime has to be done with some finesse which Snyder did not do at all. It would have made more sense to me, considering Bruce's irrational behavior and inability to see things clearly that you pointed out, that he would have known all of Clark's background to begin with and simply not cared. In which case, the whole Martha bit would have to have been replaced with something else because it's something he should have already known about.
In either case, the movie still fails to give a good explanation of why Clark is suddenly absolved of all the grievances Bruce had with him just because he happened to have a human mother he cared for.
To be honest as an unashamed defender of the film, there are dozens of reasons I could put there that make perfect sense to me, but they're things I figured out in my own head canon based on what the movie gave us, which wasn't much. If it's not included on the movie, there's no defending it based on my own interpretation of what the screenwriters hoped to accomplish. I think that's a problem.w with this movie, because it was seemingly constructed with the assumption, based on Zack Snyder's "familiarity" with the comics that viewers would also be familiar enough with all the shit they threw in that they'd be willing to just create their own pieces of the puzzle to fit into the empty spaces.
Now whether you think Snyder is actually familiar with the comics or he's just paying lip service is entirely up to you. I will say that as someone who's lived and breathed DC for 30 years, motivations and references and other small stuff that made sense to me would make absolutely no sense to someone who isn't as familiar with the comics. Even then, if someone isn't fond of the same comics I am, they won't view the film the same way. It's an extraordinarily subjective film, and one that basically tells you that if you're not a fan of the comics Snyder is, you can go fuck yourself. Which isn't a good thing for a blockbuster film designed to start a franchise.
For me, it was almost a perfect DC film, which I know will make some people's heads explode. But I'm not under any illusions that other people are wrong about the film, or didn't "get" it. It's just a film made by a guy who used an era that a lot of people don't like as the basis for a massive movie. It wasn't accessible whatsoever to anyone but those who wanted the tone they went with. I'm damn mystified at WB's insistence on cutting it, because from all reports the UC is a more coherent film, which wouldn't have done anything for those who don't like the story and tone, but it could have at least fixed the glaring editing issues.
Because his anger and rage is towards Superman. How does Superman's mother play into that? If he had done the research she's a nobody with a clean record who (from what we as the audience can gather) has only worked small jobs at Sears and some cafe. She's an innocent. If that was something he was willing to do why doesn't he go after everyone's mom? Or their kids? Or just kill everybody to make sure all crime ends and it's just him and Alfred. And then why not kill Alfred? He may turn too!
This is a very self aware and well thought out response and I appreciate that greatly. I ain't gonna knock you for loving something just because I don't see things the same way.
MegaManTrigger
Banned
The problem is the 3 hour run time goes against market research, especially when internet reviewers/etc. complain about a movie being too long. Warner Bros wants to appeal the the lowest common denominator to maximize on profits (all the more ironic considering how dark and depressing the movie is even after being cut in the eyes of many people). That's why you typically see superhero movies going for 2:30 maximum run time, with a few exceptions. In addition, I think the problem is at the fundamental level; there are scenes that don't really go anywhere which hurts the pacing of movie and results in jarring cuts when edited.
- Status