The UK votes to leave the European Union

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danowat said:
What are the betting odds on Britain not leaving the EU after all?
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Right now, I'd give you 70-30 on leaving. Honestly, right now I'd say leaving is closer to 90-95% likely - but I can be charitable with the betting odds.

Early days, anything can happen, plenty of time for this shit storm to be turned around yet.
 
Daemul said:
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How have I never seen that gif. Beautiful. Amazing.
 
Dizzy said:
Never said that at all.

Clearly though the Remain side is making all the fuss right now because they lost. Also younger generation, more likely to use social media to voice their opinion etc etc and so what I'm seeing is mostly remain.


Look I think the UK would be better in the EU. However I believe we can stand on our own two feet if we leave. I'm not that scared of leaving.

However you know what would scare me? A future where the Government ignores the will of the people. Or removes the rights to vote from certain groups. Or redoes referendums just to get the result they wanted. That kind of future scares me far more than the UK leaving the EU.

That's what I'm unhappy with and trying to address here. Deep down would anyone really want a Government like that?
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I'm more than happy to shut up and get on with it when someone explains to me what benefits we've gained and what the plan is going forward.

As of yet though, no-one has, and quite frankly you're going to keep seeing what you're seeing now until the leave side actually tells us all what's going on.
 
Clear said:
On the other hand, should the results of this referendum be ignored - which I believe is a constitutionally legal possibility - what would that mean for any future referenda on, say, Scottish Independence?

Objectively speaking, one could view the referendum as simply signifying a vote of no-confidence in the EU (which I honestly believe a lot of "leave" voters expected it to be), as opposed to a decree of executive action. But that would obviously have major ramifications regarding precedent.

Honestly I think its a fascinating situation if you take a step back from the hysterics. Because essentially so far every act and piece of rhetoric has been politically symbolic only, the Rubicon has not been crossed until Article 50 has been triggered.
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I think it just means more stringent criteria for a referendum "passing" would need to be implemented. Like we have for Constitutional Amendments here in the States.
 
Ashes said:
She's not a dictator. She's not a president. She is the head of state. Now I'm not saying that democracy is higher in import than economic and fiscal responsibility, but those 17m people need to have their voice heard.
We simply cannot go back from this. We have to look forward and find another way.
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17 million people had their voice heard through their vote. Someone now needs to decide what to do, whether that's parliament or the queen.
 
EdwardTeach said:
No it is not a given, it is a worse case scenario.

Johnson, Gove or whoever else ends up doing the negotiations, know it would be utter suicide to negotiate any settlement where we lose our financial passport. The UK is totally dependent on tax revenues generated from the city. We will be irrevocably fucked if we lose the passport. (We won't be able to afford to keep up benefit payments to all the outers.)
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And it's political suicide to do the sort of deal which ends up with the associate membership which would be required to keep the passporting

Interesting Mexican standoff we've got ourselves here
(oops shouldn't have brought the Mexicans into this while the leavers still have their pitchforks out)
 
Crumpo said:
TBF I agree with you. We can't go on about tolerance, denounce racism etc and then in the same sentence say that old people don't deserve the same rights as us...that shit is just not correct.

I'm really hoping that bit is chalked down to emotion and goes away fast.
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Social media discussion/comment on any or all contentious issues is a fucking joke, if you take it seriously you'll drive yourself insane.

Its funny to me when people start arguing that x group of people don't deserve their say via a medium the defining concept of which is allowing anyone to have an equal say!
 
TatteredHat said:
Seems like it. Just let the uncertainty fester, I'm sure nothing bad will happen by doing that.
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The idea is to drag uncertainty to negotiate with the EU.

But I know exactly how that will go; exactly like with Greece. They'll hear none of it, and Boris will ride on that, refusing to "rush the article 50 process" in the UK's interest, and put all the blame on the EU, forcing them to negotiate or force the UK out somehow.

Win-win for him.
 
EdwardTeach said:
No it is not a given, it is a worse case scenario.

Johnson, Gove or whoever else ends up doing the negotiations, know it would be utter suicide to negotiate any settlement where we lose our financial passport. The UK is totally dependent on tax revenues generated from the city. We will be irrevocably fucked if we lose the passport. (We won't be able to afford to keep up benefit payments to all the outers.)
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Well, in all likelihood that's not happening without the UK accepting freedom of movement. So...
 
oti xero said:
I agree. No democracy has the power to overturn this decision, but the Queen is such a political oddity that she could play that card. It would likely mean the end of the Monarchy as we know it but this shouldn't be her first concern
but of course it is
.
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The funny thing is, alot of the working class still hold the queen in somewhat reverance. If she was to come out making a statement pro-eu, carefully explaining why we would need to stay, it's far more thorny for the media, ukip and the leave to attack her.

I'm sure there would still be a very strong anti-eu and immigrant sentiment, but she would at the very least divide the Brexiters to the point they are irrelevant.
 
Countries like England Germany Italy Spain have an undercurrent of people who would vote leave, probably 30-35% and mostly motivated by xenophobia and racism.

What has happened is Gove and Johnson have sold people in the middle a lie, a pipe dream. That we can load up the removal truck and leave the crumbling EU. Unleash the shackles on the UK in business and decide better who comes in and out and the rate of immigration if we vote Leave.

They did too good a job selling it to frustrated people and the expected 60-40 or at worst 55-45 remain never happened. Without the fairytale story forefront in the media I'm sure it would more like 65-70% remain.

People like Boris and Gove don't want to go through with it, they want to make more deals. A good get out would be come clean and say Scotland is vetoing and we've looked at it and the breakup of the UK, its not worth the trouble. Put the proper facts out there of how intertwined UK and London is to the EU, show people our high influx of recent immigration is down to UK government, have a revote to show Europe we're actually pro EU and get back to business.

What is stunning is how the lies and nightmare was allowed to be played out, as if somehow people at the top want to poke and prod the EU or fancy their chances. How a simple 2% majority can be called crystal clear that Britain has decide to leave.

Gullible and vulnerable people with real issues have been hoodwinked.
 
Dizzy said:
These people champion democracy but then try and throw it out of the window when they don't get their own way. Saying people should have their right to vote taken away? Redoing a referendum because you didn't get the results you wanted? Asking the Government to ignore what people voted for? Lmfao. If we read about this happening in some other nation people would be up in arms about how corrupt it is if the Government started doing that. People need to read what they write before they post.
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As a pro-remain support I 100% agree with this sentiment. I've already said I won't sign any second referendum redo petition and would actively vote leave, despite my personal feelings and misgivings, on a straight re-run.

An are you sure referendum following proper leave negotiations is another matter though.
 
ThoughtsOfSpeaking said:
The funny thing is, alot of the working class still hold the queen in somewhat reverance. If she was to come out making a statement pro-eu, carefully explaining why we would need to stay, it's far more thorny for the media, ukip and the leave to attack her.

I'm sure there would still be a very strong anti-eu and immigrant sentiment, but she would at the very least divide the Brexiters to the point they are irrelevant.
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Sigh, why didn't she do it before then. (I'm sure she's not allowed and she has to drag neutral.) She could have prevented this mess for all of us.
 
EdwardTeach said:
No it is not a given, it is a worse case scenario.

Johnson, Gove or whoever else ends up doing the negotiations, know it would be utter suicide to negotiate any settlement where we lose our financial passport. The UK is totally dependent on tax revenues generated from the city. We will be irrevocably fucked if we lose the passport. (We won't be able to afford to keep up benefit payments to all the outers.)
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Oh yes, what a wonderful position in which to go into a negotiation - where the ones you're negotiating with know exactly what will fuck you horribly.
 
Ether_Snake said:
The idea is to drag uncertainty to negotiate with the EU.

But I know exactly how that will go; exactly like with Greece. They'll hear none of it, and Boris will ride on that, refusing to "rush the article 50 process" in the UK's interest, and put all the blame on the EU, forcing them to negotiate or force the UK out somehow.

Win-win for him.
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Don't give him ideas. The nasty piece of shit appears to have been caught without a ready line for once.
 
kmag said:
And it's political suicide to do the sort of deal which ends up with the associate membership which would be required to keep the passporting

Interesting Mexican standoff we've got ourselves here
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Yup, but the country would literally go bankrupt without the passport.

When that reality hits you would see a split between the nostalgic shire tory outers and the poor "fuck the elites" outers. With only the latter actually wanting to destroy the UK economy.
 
nOoblet16 said:
About right to vote being taken away.
It's not unreasonable to assume people who are 65+ might not have the best interest of the younger generation, or they might not be as informed.
Why is it that children and people under 18 can't vote? Because it is assumed that they do not have the capability to make sound decisions regarding a country's future, in which case why is it unthinkable to assume old and sick or soon to be sick people have similar issues?
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One of those is not like the other. What motivates a person's vote, whether it's in their interest, or the country's should never be brought into the equation. Disenfranchising is contradictory to democracy. If you're fit to vote and it is legal for you to vote, you should be allowed to vote.
 
I voted remain - when the calls for a second referendum started coming in and that petition appeared I said we shouldn't do that. We have to accept the result.

But I'm actually starting to change my mind now the full full magnitude of leaves lies and incompetence is coming out.

I find this genuinely scary:

https://youtu.be/HNe-yHr7uJc
 
jakonovski said:
Am I interpreting it correctly that the plan right now for Leave, at least as seen in this thread, is to just drag your feet in the belief that as long as you never chant the magic words of Invoke Article 50, nothing bad will happen?
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There are 27 other member state who might not want to live with that level of uncertainty. As a plan it's one that one work for very long.
 
shinra-bansho said:
Well, in all likelihood that's not happening without the UK accepting freedom of movement. So...
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Free movement needs looking at, the poorer economies lose at their brains and the richer economies end up with an over supply of skills driving down prices.

Noble an idea as it is, it is the single biggest problem area with the EU today and the reason this vote happened
 
Ether_Snake said:
The idea is to drag uncertainty to negotiate with the EU.

But I know exactly how that will go; exactly like with Greece. They'll hear none of it, and Boris will ride on that, refusing to "rush the article 50 process" in the UK's interest, and put all the blame on the EU, forcing them to negotiate or force the UK out somehow.

Win-win for him.
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Business isn't going to wait and I'm pretty sure the eu is going to start pulling out the regulatory bodies based here as quickly as they can
 
Morat said:
Don't give him ideas. The nasty piece of shit appears to have been caught without a ready line for once.
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Well he pretty much already said there is no point in rushing article 50, and that's because he doesn't intend to call for it, it was never the point, it was always about crystallizing a new voting block in the UK through dissatisfaction on the back of the EU in order to eventually become PM. The referendum just gives him the leeway to drag this on as long as he wants, and both pro-Leave and Stay will give him the moral justification to do so since even among those who voted to Leave a large chunk don't actually want out.

kmag said:
Business isn't going to wait and I'm pretty sure the eu is going to start pulling out the regulatory bodies based here as quickly as they can
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Sure but if the EU kicks the UK out he'll absolve himself of the fallout, which is fine and dandy for him. Right now the EU needs new legislation to kick the UK out.
 
Cheeseman Battitude said:
Any chance of Farage leaving UKIP, joining Conservatives and going for leader?
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None, he is despised by the tories more then anyone else. If Cameron could have done it without giving ukip even more attention there would have been a news story one day about Farrage being found dead at home after a suicide, apparently shooting himself in the back of the head... twice.

Although to be fair most of the UK would have gone 'yep that sounds reasonable, best burn the body and move on.'
 
PipefishUK said:
I voted remain - when the calls for a second referendum started coming in and that petition appeared in said we shouldn't do that. We have to accept the result.

But I'm actually starting to change my mind now the full full magnitude of leaves lies and incompetence is coming out.

I find this genuinely scary:

https://youtu.be/HNe-yHr7uJc
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I don't see offering a more informed referendum before jumping as being a democratic failure.

Let's see the goods before we buy.
 
oti xero said:
Sigh, why didn't she do it before then. (I'm sure she's not allowed and she has to drag neutral.) She could have prevented this mess for all of us.
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Same reason any rich any powerful person didn't speak up. It really doesn't hurt them either way.

Even people who have lost millions on the stock markets will bounce back far faster than typical brexiter will see any benefit from this (and that's pretending their fantasies of stopping immigration and jobs returning to the English was actually true).
 
Ether_Snake said:
The idea is to drag uncertainty to negotiate with the EU.

But I know exactly how that will go; exactly like with Greece. They'll hear none of it, and Boris will ride on that, refusing to "rush the article 50 process" in the UK's interest, and put all the blame on the EU, forcing them to negotiate or force the UK out somehow.

Win-win for him.
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The EU will never ever take the UK seriously again, and all these little advantages the UK had over all the other countries will hopefully be nil.

And once more, the UK will have shown they give a shit about the EU and how it fares, anyway..

I hope so much they just leave for good, and doing that fast.
 
Ether_Snake said:
The idea is to drag uncertainty to negotiate with the EU.

But I know exactly how that will go; exactly like with Greece. They'll hear none of it, and Boris will ride on that, refusing to "rush the article 50 process" in the UK's interest, and put all the blame on the EU, forcing them to negotiate or force the UK out somehow.

Win-win for him.
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What is he going to say? We left the EU because we couldn't strike a deal? Didn't the ballot paper say 'leave the European union'? What would blaming EU possibly be do here for him? What is he blaming the EU even for.
 
I see that we are continuing with the hyperbole that all leave voters are xenophobic racists.

The oh so tolerant left i praise you for finally showing your true colours.

godelsmetric said:
'The person with the most thought-through plan, as evidence by the past 48 hours, is, astonishingly, Nicola Sturgeon, the first minister of Scotland.'

nail meet head
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Nobody, absolutely nobody should be taking any notice of Nicola Sturgeon.
 
PipefishUK said:
I voted remain - when the calls for a second referendum started coming in and that petition appeared I said we shouldn't do that. We have to accept the result.

But I'm actually starting to change my mind now the full full magnitude of leaves lies and incompetence is coming out.

I find this genuinely scary:

https://youtu.be/HNe-yHr7uJc
Click to expand...

'The person with the most thought-through plan, as evidence by the past 48 hours, is, astonishingly, Nicola Sturgeon, the first minister of Scotland.'

nail meet head
 
phisheep said:
They didn't so much choose to ignore these authorities, they were never properly informed of them. Blame the campaign not the electorate.

Hell, even I didn't know some of these.
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This is a cop out. In the age of the internet there is zero excuse for not being informed with the only exception of those who cannot access the internet.
 
Jimbob Smalls said:
Free movement needs looking at, the poorer economies lose at their brains and the richer economies end up with an over supply of skills driving down prices.

Noble an idea as it is, it is the single biggest problem area with the EU today and the reason this vote happened
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It's only a problem because people think it's a problem. It doesn't bring anything but profit. The net migration rate of UK is extremely low and they always lump in the numbers from non EU countries to make it look big...and include non EU students who make up for the biggest group of non EU migrants and do nothing but pay.

People also have no clue about what Freedom of Movement actually is hence the sentiments that the migrants come here and reap benefits and do nothing. Despite the freedom of movement, you cannot just travel and do nothing except take job seeker benefits for more than 3 months, if you are then you will most likely be asked to leave. That's how it is in EU.
 
-Plasma Reus- said:
What is he going to say? We left the EU because we couldn't strike a deal? Didn't the ballot paper say 'leave the European union'? What would blaming EU possibly be do here for him? What is he blaming the EU even for.
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He has no reason to call for article 50 because he'll want to negotiate the post-exit partnership with the EU through this process. He'll say it's the EU that is dragging things out, and that they are free to force the UK out now if they want to.

If they don't, blame is on them for not working with him to manage a proper exit, if they do kick the UK out then he'll blame them for rushing things through.
 
Jimbob Smalls said:
Free movement needs looking at, the poorer economies lose at their brains and the richer economies end up with an over supply of skills driving down prices.

Noble an idea as it is, it is the single biggest problem area with the EU today and the reason this vote happened
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The Finances Services Sector needs it - London is the world's largest financial centre. Heck the services industry in general make up nearly 80% of the UK GDP. Not that that's related to migration. But to the former in some key parts, free movement of labour is.
You would wreck the economy. Please abandon your prejudices. Or try and come up with an alternative.


edit: checked: it's 78%.
 
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