Why is everyone anti Bruce x Barbara? (Batman)
- Thread starter Lights and Waves
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UberTag
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She initiated everything in the entire scene. Bruce's crime is that he didn't push her away after she straddled him and stuck her tongue down his throat (and he did think about doing just that).
She was hardly a victim here - but the reactions that she was are entirely understandable given that this scene takes place within the confines of the Killing Joke - a comic story that's infamous in large part due to Barbara being victimized. (That... and Bruce Timm didn't need to go there.)
Which would be entirely fair if not for the fact that these reactions would happen regardless of the context of this particular story.
That said, this story is a ridiculously hairy place to put all this extra stuff in.
I think they wanted to add stakes and bond between Barbera and Bruce, but did not want to have to introduce Nightwing. This was of course a lazy way to approach it, but I get it. I think.
Mutanthands
Member
Who knows what they were thinking. It's a revered Alan Moore story, they should have known that doing anything other than playing it straight was going to displease people on multiple levels. On top of it, they double down on the most controversial part of the narrative, and turn it into even more of a semi-fridging by making
Barbara Bruce's romantic partner.
flaxknuckles
Member
No. He still gave us the JL animated universe. But damn he is weird for this. I can see Didio cackling right now
exmachina64
Banned
Just found out about this and I can't handle it.
Just...why?
Just...why?
I can understand Barbara being into Bruce. Between hero worship, Bruce being, in his own words, "The ultimate alpha male" and the life or death bond of being essentially comrades on the battlefield, I can understand feelings forming for her.
What I can't understand is why Bruce would ever reciprocate. He knew her when she was still a child. She's the daughter of one of his best friends, a constant romantic partner of his adopted son. She's one of his students, one of his soldiers. One of his family he's been building to replace what he lost in the alley. It makes this feel like an incestuous act and it makes Bruce seem tiny and fucked up and not someone who should be looked up to.
I just don't want to feel that way about Batman.
What I can't understand is why Bruce would ever reciprocate. He knew her when she was still a child. She's the daughter of one of his best friends, a constant romantic partner of his adopted son. She's one of his students, one of his soldiers. One of his family he's been building to replace what he lost in the alley. It makes this feel like an incestuous act and it makes Bruce seem tiny and fucked up and not someone who should be looked up to.
I just don't want to feel that way about Batman.
I've always loved the idea of this relationship. Stripping Batman of being this ultimate paragon of justice, and showing deeply hypocritical and flawed parts about him has always brought a grin to my face. He flies around and beats down criminals for a living, but is he really such a great guy deep down? Questions like these are why I've always loved Batman over other superheroes.
Azure Dream
Member
flaxknuckles
Member
Yeah but in the Killing Joke tho
Mutanthands
Member
NealMcCauley
Member
Definitely not what I expected when I read they were expanding Barbara's role, but at the same time I'm not too surprised.
Frozenprince
Banned
UberTag
Member
I'm not sure Batman wants to feel that way about Batman, either... which is why he likely has the very same argument with himself after what takes place and he freezes Batgirl out. It's an understandably human reaction from someone who recognizes how fucked up it was.
spindashing
Banned
Sounds like it's at least treated like an issue and not something both characters are all that happy with either.
I'll have to see the film before judging it. I like the IDEA of the story a lot, it remains to be seen if it's executed well.
EmCeeGramr
Member
ahahaha fucking timm you gotta be shitting me
Wait, what?
I haven't read The Killing Joke in some time now but...this wasn't in it right
Frozenprince
Banned
You know for once, I think Alan Moore is justified in hating the adaptation of his work.
Mutanthands
Member
Maybe they will pull it off. My concern is that it changes things too much, and becomes more evocative of DC's relationship issues. It goes from a friend and colleague falling to this unstoppable evil, and turns it into even more of a fridging as primary motivation. It's just creepy on 3-4 levels.
Azure Dream
Member
They refused to do The Killing Joke unless it could be rated R, so...
KenzinFive
Member
Sheriff_Battlesnake
Banned
What's the age gap? I was 20 and my girlfriend was 15 when we met. We didn't date until I was 24 and she was 19.
Frozenprince
Banned
Alright I need to point out that I'v always hated the whole "Batman is so royally fucked in the head that he's destined to die alone" shit.
The whole point of his kids, and that shit being called the bat family, is that this string of fucked up wards he's taken in, trained, and kept from becoming like him wouldn't ever abandon him because he's their dad. They see the Bruce Wayne beyond the mask, they're the only people beyond Selina Kyle that ever could or would do that. Dick Greyson isn't just some teenager in tights he helped learn some kung-fu, he's his son.
Batman being destined to die alone fighting as the bat forever is the worst ending. Because Bruce Wayne grew as a character by having these kids that he's responsible for and genuinely loves as a parent.
Him fucking Barb, his best friends daughter and sons primary object of affection, isn't some edgy exploration of how deranged Batman is behind the mask. It's just used to objectify Barbra and turn her motivations into "well he's hot I might as well do what he does and maybe he'll love me!" It's not good storytelling or character development it's just making a child he was responsible for into a sex object.
Depending on the adaptations, he would be in his early to mid-20's when she was a pre-adolescent child.
New-52 would make it slightly better I think (he's like 35 and she's early 20's) but not much.
The whole point of his kids, and that shit being called the bat family, is that this string of fucked up wards he's taken in, trained, and kept from becoming like him wouldn't ever abandon him because he's their dad. They see the Bruce Wayne beyond the mask, they're the only people beyond Selina Kyle that ever could or would do that. Dick Greyson isn't just some teenager in tights he helped learn some kung-fu, he's his son.
Batman being destined to die alone fighting as the bat forever is the worst ending. Because Bruce Wayne grew as a character by having these kids that he's responsible for and genuinely loves as a parent.
Him fucking Barb, his best friends daughter and sons primary object of affection, isn't some edgy exploration of how deranged Batman is behind the mask. It's just used to objectify Barbra and turn her motivations into "well he's hot I might as well do what he does and maybe he'll love me!" It's not good storytelling or character development it's just making a child he was responsible for into a sex object.
Depending on the adaptations, he would be in his early to mid-20's when she was a pre-adolescent child.
New-52 would make it slightly better I think (he's like 35 and she's early 20's) but not much.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
Like 35 to 16-17
Frozenprince
Banned
Killing Joke he was on Tim Drake, so I'm guessing early 40's.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Feel bad for Mark Hamill this was his dream project. Between the shitty animation and this, it doesn't look like it's going to turn out very well.
About 20 year gap, I think. Like, he was already Batman when she was in grade school.
But, really... Maybe, MAYBE you could get this relationship to happen in the DCAU (I loathe it), but this was Alan Moore's story, and I don't think it has any place here.
Geez.
No one asked for this in the film adaptation of one of the most critically acclaimed Batman story of all time. NO ONE
Frozenprince
Banned
That's what bugs me, this isn't even Bruce Timm's DCAU where this shit has at least been set up, sick or not, and worked towards.
This is a fucking one-shot elseworlds that has no bearing on the animated universe he created and he still felt the need to force it in there.
This is a fucking one-shot elseworlds that has no bearing on the animated universe he created and he still felt the need to force it in there.
Not just the age difference, he probably knew her since she was born.
It's such a weird thing to add
Frozenprince
Banned
God it's so fucked up.
Hell there are even some runs where he's her fucking godfather FFS.
Or the runs where Gordon is a father figure to him.
Disgusting.
Unspeakable Evil
Member
Isn't Batman x Zatanna the same thing. Hooking up with a friend's daughter. Bruce don't care
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
They should have just added a scene of her having a good time with her father, or even a non-romantic scene with Bruce/Batman. Her feeling dejected about this is just adding insult to injury.
Frozenprince
Banned
It's the time honored story beat for those that don't know how to write a storyline for a woman character.
"WHY DOESN'T HE LOVE ME?"
I'm just glad my boy Tim Drake isn't being completely shit on and forgotten like he was just 4 short years ago.
Hurt my soul.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
True
Mr. Poolman
Member
Haven't read Killing Joke in some years, but yeah this was not in the book. Hell, it actually makes the whole rape scene even worse.
Bats and Batgirl have rough sex, THEN she gets raped.
Somebody tell me I'm on some weird coffee hallucination.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
Unspeakable Evil
Member
I'm mean Bruce didn't have to sleep with Jason to make us care!
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