Major Gripex
Member
Well that was a disappointing revelation.
Why is everyone anti Bruce x Barbara? (Batman)
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What do you know
Timm's little fanfiction started in TAS finally came to fruition https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vnBk3lUuwY
Timm's little fanfiction started in TAS finally came to fruition https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vnBk3lUuwY
Oh my god I love this post so much thank you.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
Her reaction is bothering me way more than the existence of the relationship. Calling on the batphone and pulling a "pls respond." Seriously? You're going to do the female lead of the movie that dirty in a story that is heavily criticized for doing that same female character dirty?
This really turned me off from wanting to watch the movie. *Sigh* But I know I will anyway.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Yeah, the only reason it better fit into the DCAU was because batman beyond allowed it to end on a more positive note by having bruce change through his relationship with terry (as opposed to the robins) and begin to repair the relationships with the people he'd harmed.
UberTag
Member
It's not like he'd have an R-rating to work with any other time.
That's DC's fault for humoring him and allowing Timm to be opportunistic and exploiting the loophole that rating provided.
He's not a real person and I really don't want him to be. Batman doesn't function as a concept with this much realism injected into him. Murdering the Joker (or most of his worst villains, really) is also an understandably human reaction, but he'll never do that either. Grim and brooding though he may be, Batman is meant to be an absolute moral good. How did the Joker describe him in the Dark Knight? "Completely incorruptible" I think? Not exactly ambiguous. And that was a pretty freaking dark interpretation of Batman.
He's, in part, a surrogate father figure, not just to his wards in story but hundreds of actual children in the actual world. Of which I am one. Which I recognize is kind of sad and pathetic in it's own way, but I didn't have a choice in how I grew up. So, this is understandably a little more personal to me than maybe it ought to be. It's not a fascinating exploration of a character for me. It's taking something that helped me more than anything else just barely get through a terrifying and hostile childhood and making it broken and pathetic and sad. I'm completely fine with an awkward moment of temptation being presented to Batman, but I'm not in any way into a story where he succumbs to that temptation.
There are characters where an exploration of that could work and would be very interesting. I could see maybe, maybe an argument being made for Cyclops being put in that position, for example. Not Batman. I'm sure that makes me some kind of blind fanboy, but this is one of those few instances where I just don't give a good god damn. Real people let you down enough. Characters like Batman, Superman, Spider-Man...you have to be able to count on them to do the right thing. That is important to people. Real people. And I know ultimately I'll just ignore this shit and move on, but Timm was one of the architects of what began my love of this character. It just really hurts.
ThusZarathustra
Member
I still don't fully get how people can like the killing joke in a modern context. I'm sure it was edgelord as all hell in the late eighties, but now? It just feels shallow and cruel. Alan Moore strangled by his weird formalist tendencies and personal tics. I know folks hate that dude now, and yeah he's a cranky old man in tons of ways, but he's hated that story for years and with good reason.
I've never understood the reverence for it. Great art though.
I've never understood the reverence for it. Great art though.
People "adapt" other people's stories all the time, especially if a big corporation owns the rights.
Richard Donner adapted Superman comics (very generally) into the 1978 film, and he changed a bunch of it, and everyone loved it and they made that the new definitive version of Superman.
Tim Burton adapted Batman comics (very generally) into the 1989 film, and he put his own spin on things, and everyone loved it and it washed away the Adam West Batman (which was itself just another adaptation).
Bruce Timm and Paul Dini worked together to make the "Batman: The Animated Series" cartoon in the 90's, and it's regarded as one of the best cartoons in decades and one of the best versions of Batman. Timm and Dini followed Batman TAS with a Superman cartoon, and a Justice League cartoon, all of which have been fantastic.
Zack Snyder adapted Frank Miller's "300" comic book into a movie and made a ton of money. He adapted Alan Moore's "Watchmen" into a movie as well. DC Comics hired him to reboot Superman with "Man of Steel", and then he followed that up with "Batman V Superman", which was an adaptation of another Frank Miller story. And he's got the upcoming Justice League movie.
DC Comics is currently desperate to have someone turn their comic books into movies, because Marvel Comics movies are doing spectacularly well. They'll pin their hopes on anyone, even a hack like Zack Snyder.
But from another perspective, DC's cartoons have been gold ever since Bruce Timm and Paul Dini took over that department in the 90's. Sure, Paul Dini retired, and the quality of the cartoons has been going steadily downhill, but they still exist, and DC still makes direct-to-video sequels that make them feel like the glory days of Batman TAS and Justice League Unlimited are still within reach.
That's why Bruce Timm can take a popular story and ruin it by putting his own spin on it. He's resting on his (and Paul Dini's) laurels. He can ship Bruce x Barbara as much as he wants and get away with it. And he can "borrow" from anyone who's ever written a story for DC (just as they can borrow from him, like Harley Quinn starring in the Suicide Squad movie). He wasn't assigned to animate Alan Moore's story, he's "adapting" most of that story into his own cartoon universe. Which is why people are complaining that he's injecting new (and terrible) ideas into the story, while also complaining that he's lazily lifting the rest of the story straight out of Alan Moore's book, almost frame-by-frame copying.
Fans of the Killing Joke wanted an extremely faithful adaptation, as close to the source as possible.
From what I hear, everything that is from the graphic novel IS good... and it's the new material that doesn't work, even on its own merits.
Taken within the context of modern sensibilities and altering Barbara in this way is HIGHLY problematic and I really can't understate how misguided this decision is. Her treatment in the original was already a heavy point of contention, and this only makes it much worse.
That's not even factoring in how none of it was in the original story or the insufferable mindset and trope that "men need more motivation to avenge damaged women they're in relationships with" that persists so hard to this day.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
It's THE Joker story. I always said, if DC wants the world to forget about The Killing Joke they need to get a creator to write another Joker story in the same vain but not copy it. Hype it up to be the next great Joker story.
What did he mean by this?
Member
WHAT THE FUCK
You did this 5 years ago with Catwoman and got in trouble yet you do it again but with the addded age difference creep factor too???
I greatly look forward to this adaptation of The Killing Joke, which has now boldly transformed the original story into a newly spun tale that depicts how Batman came to laugh uproariously in response to the Joker crippling the teenage protege he's just fucked.
What's more, I'm sure absoloutley no controversy will be borne of this decision whatsoever.
What's more, I'm sure absoloutley no controversy will be borne of this decision whatsoever.
Frozenprince
Banned
i mean there's a reason DC took everything except "Barb gets crippled" out of the story from continuity.
The rape/sodomy stuff in particular, yeah.
Another good post. I do think there's room to explore different interpetatons of the character but it seems like outside of the comics no one is interested in the Batman as a father nor as a hopeful character.
Like you, I latched on to Batman during my childhood because of trauma. My dad was kidnapped when I was young and while fortunately we got him back, I grew up with a father with PTSD as well with my own trauma. Seeing Bruce and his kids interact in a loving but not perfect way felt real and comforting when no one else around me had to deal with anywhere near the same shit. To this day I know I have my own mental and emotional hurdles to overcome, but to me Batman is about how mental illness and trauma doesn't mean you're automatically doomed to be a terrible person but that you can do good and still have a loving family around you.
What did he mean by this?
Member
Also, if theyre changing shit from the comics screw it have Batman kill the Fucker finally for the R-rating
Razgriz-Specter
Member
But see, this whole ship really started with BTAS which is based completely around that awful aspect of that version of Batman.
BTAS doesn't really have a Batfamily,
Dick leaves(and doesn't get along as well as comics)
Jason is never a big deal
Tim becomes Joker jr, then leaves
Barbara hooks up with Bruce for a bit and then gets shot and quits
Cass doesn't exist
Damian doesn't exist
BTAS Selina sucks
Talia gives her body to Ra's
Nothing happens with Zatanna
Nothing happens with Diana
Lois has Clark
Terry is the only good thing BTAS Bruce has in the end, and Bruce and Amanda Waller actually inspire him to be a better than Bruce by simply not screwing up a personal relationship.
God I wish we could get an actual Batfamily show where the entire family exists and functions episode to episode instead of guest appearances here and there.
The thing about that is, to make a signature Joker story like that or Death in the Family (both of which really haven't aged that well when you go back to read them, especially Death in the Family) you have to let the Joker do something unspeakably terrible to someone the readership/the main characters care about a lot. And it has to stick. That's what all those big stories people tout as being required reading for the Joker seem to have in common. He has lots of great stories, but it seems like it's the ones where he "wins" that are held up as classics.
Is that even possible in the modern environment of comics?
Frozenprince
Banned
Considering they magiced Barb out of the wheelchair?
I think they can retell Death in the Family if they want to but honestly I'm okay with no more Joker stories.
I like it because it's the most humanized depiction of the joker I've seen. It definitely is cruel, but hidden under all this is something I feel that people often miss: Batman us trying to save the Joker from his madness. And the joker is someone who wants to be saved. It's a rare depiction where he actually hates doing the monstrous things he does. The art work is pretty on point with this, because a lot of the time the Joker smiles, it never reaches his eyes. And his whole plan is a desperate attempt to just prove he's not alone in the world.
That said, I think Scott Snyder successfully improved on the origin story in his Zero Year event.
Major Gripex
Member
As someone who never liked Batman Beyond, I feel somewhat vindicated.
Still though, I can't believe Timm went with this in the Killing Joke. The only way the movie doesn't suck is if Batman actually Kills the Joker like Alan Moore intended. No subtle Inception like ending, we have to see Batman kill the Joker with his hands. That way, it will be easier to accept it as an elseworld story.
ThusZarathustra
Member
I'm weird because I just cannot bring myself to care about that kinda thing.
"THE Joker story!"
"Who... gives... a ... shit?"
I do "get it" but only in an intellectual sort of way. I've never been able to feel anything but disgust for that story. And maybe some hipster bemusement at how exxtreme Moore was trying to be. But then I've always followed creators rather than characters and have always been able to mostly enjoy superhero stuff selectively via my own head-canon.
I'm just baffled by the intense excitement I've seen from people for this adaptation. People seem to be positively salivating for it.
We were close.
I want a show where the new kid is the focus of every season with time skips.
Season 1: Dick (& Babs)
Season 2: Jason (& Babs)
Season 3: Tim
Season 4: Cass
Season 5: Damian
Frozenprince
Banned
See I'm of the opposite camp. I'v never liked the "twin sides" thing people try to do with the modern Joker. To me, Joker should remain an unknowable, insane force of nature that manipulates and abuses everyone and everything because it amuses him in his own psychotic brain. Giving him the only form of joy, catharsis, closure or semblance of stability possible.
The Joker isn't a human being anymore, he's Id made flesh, Batman wanting to cure this obviously far gone lunatic isn't meant to show how broken Bruce is, but how strong his moral center and code is. That no matter who you are, he doesn't believe anybody is beyond saving.
Then again I'v never really liked the Joker in general. Animated Hammell Joker is great and everything, but the Joker is such a one note, empty character really that he's probably the worst of the major Batman villains to me. There's no real conflict when he appears, he's just a walking writers tool to cop out of convoluted situations with the whole "HE'S CRAZY!" thing.
/thread
Yeah, to be clear, I don't care this passionately about what Timm did with that relationship in Batman Beyond. I'm not into it, but that's his own thing. It's practically fan fiction. This is a little too close to mainline Batman for my liking, though. Feels different somehow.
I'm sorry to hear about your dad. No one should have to go through that kind of thing, especially not a little boy. I'm glad you found something that could help, at least a little.
ThusZarathustra
Member
I basically agree with this. To me it's very very possible to overly humanize superheros to the point of bringing reality too far into their world and breaking all of the metaphorical, playful, bullshit that is superheroes.
There's a comparison that people do 'tween Moore and Morrison that I've seen around occasionally: Moore brings the heroes to the audience's world, while Morrison brings the audience to the hero's world. It's not a perfect comparison, and I'm fans of both those dudes, but I usually much prefer the latter to the former.
I do think he personally doesn't want the Joker to be cured or doesn't think it's possible but I agree his not killing the Joker is about him trying be moral. I see it more ad he's trying to not put himself above others. Countless villains or hell "regular" people have killed other people's children. Only thing that makes the Joker different is that he killed Bruce's.
(I also don't tend to think of the Joker as someone who has a vastly higher kill count than any other DC villain so there's that.)
Yeah, Morrison is a better writer of Superheroes (not the same as being a better writer. Moore is undeniably a genius) for this reason, imo. He's also just kind of a better human being from everything I've seen and read, so that may color my opinion somewhat.
But Why? Why is Bruce Tim keeping forceing this, I think it's time for Batman to end his love affair with Bruce Tim.
I am shocked no body stopped this man,out of all the 100s of people working on it, stood by and said nothing.
Frozenprince
Banned
I think there's clear reasons that Grant Morrison can still write great superhero stories and Alan Moore can't.
Firstly, Alan Moore hates superheroes. Secondly, Alan Moore lost the plot in terms of what a good superhero story is meant to be.
But that's another discussion for another day.
Yeah, I get you. I can enjoy the DCAU for what it is but if the majority of the new stories were like this I'd be pretty bummed.
And thanks.
I'm sure lots of folk think it's silly and dumb but Batman really is a character dear to me. (Also, I'm a girl. Probably why I try to rep his daughters as much as I can. )This post has a few things that confuse me.
First off, I wasn't arguing a 'twin sides' notion. The thing about the joker isn't that he's multisided, but he's constantly shifting. One comic, he'll be just a raving madman, another he'll be a psychologically inclined terrorist with a point to make, another he'll be a man wallowing in his own misery and spreading it to others, another he'll be on a twisted love quest to embrace batman. Again, what I like about killing joke is that that story is where he is at his most human because in that state, he's the Joker tied to inevitability. He views madness as a kind of black hole, inescapable that makes him do the things he does. For me, that speaks to me, because I relate to feeling helplessly chained to my own personality flaws I'd like to be rid of, but I can't because that's who I am. (to be clear, I don't think like the joker where I think these things are unchangeable, but I relate to living in notion that they are). Which is what the killing joke really is, in the story. That joker can't trust it because it won't work, but in reality....he would walk the beam of light that Batman provides, and he'd be healed. He's just stuck in a mental state that simply refuses to believe it could work. To me, that's not a twin side of the joker, just one version of him that exists temporarily in the moment.
Second, you seem to argue that Joker should be basically a shallow character while also complaining about his shallowness. Like, if Joker is a nothing but id made flesh and he's seriously just this insane.....problem, not a person, then Batman wanting to cure him does not show moral strength, it shows ineptitude to see something for what it is. It's like the Gollum problem, everyone acknowledges that the chances of rehabilitation are very, very small, but all the same there. If no one believed that Joker is able to truly be helped...then Batman's desire to is simply foolish. For Batman's moral grounding to be firm, the Joker needs to have a chance. Now, granted, he will never reform because comics, but that's a different issue, because at that point it's not about Joker's psychosis and more about story exposure.
But yeah, it seems odd to me that you complain about him being one note while saying that's all he should be.
Yeah, I get you. I can enjoy the DCAU for what it is but if the majority of the new stories were like this I'd be pretty bummed.
And thanks.
Oh, my bad. Sorry. Internet. Hard to tell.
whatsinaname
Member
Hey, he can do Identity Crisis next! Wonder how he would make it darker.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
I think you seriously underestimate how many people REALLY like the Joker. Like, really...REALLY
REALLY
like The Joker
Despite what I just said, I'm going to disagree with this a bit. He's done good to outstanding work with superheroes since he hit the peak of his disillusionment with them during Watchmen. He just doesn't do it in mainline comics due to his relationship with them. Tom Strong/Promethia (maybe also Top 10 to complete the ABC line? I dunno. I didn't ever read that one.) I think should both count. You could probably make an argument for Supreme also.
No worries!
I would argue that's A Death in the Family
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Best Joker story is still the "The Laughing Fish" Detective Comics #475-476. Everything about the Dini written/Bruce Timm design/Mark Hamil voiced TAS' interpretation in particular comes from that definitive story
DrunkShogun
Member
Will never understand why people try to push the Brucexbarbara pairing. She clearly has a more natural growth with Grayson while Bruce benefits from having a weird family that helps him find some comfort in his crime fighting obsessed world. Think timm needs to stop trying to live through batman.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
There are like a dozen Joker stories I'd put above Killing Joke including that Chuck Dixon one during Knightfall where Joker is trying to direct a movie about Azrael.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Bruce Wayne is a messed up guy. He isn't some man of justice; he beats people almost to death, tortures, etc as some moral code to get back at crime. Him sleeping with his protege even though he helped train her isn't something out of this whackos league. The whole point of The Killing Joke is to show Batman is more like the Joker than previously thought (he was mentally screwed up after seeing his parent's death), so I can see this part either being good or bad. I'll have to wait and see.
Yeezus H. Christ
Banned
title of the article
"most anticipated animated movie of all time"
LOL
"most anticipated animated movie of all time"
LOL
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