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[televator]

RetroRGB opened up pre-orders for SCART/JP21 switches again but they need 30 pre-orders or they won't make any JP21 switches. I feel so much despair right now.

Spoiler

Why do you guys use SCART instead of JP21? The XRGB-3 uses JP21 so it only made sense for me to buy all my cables in that form. Is it because there's more documentation on SCART? Can you make SCART run at 60 FPS?

In America Scart runs @ 60Hz just fine, because of freedom.

J/K SCART and JP21 are just cables. Refresh rates aren't hard wired in to them.

 

[Peltz]

Why do you guys use SCART instead of JP21?

Simply because SCART switches are more common.

 

[Brhoom]

So is a crt capable of 480p worse for 240p?

Should I only go for 240p/480i?

 

[Rich!]

So is a crt capable of 480p worse for 240p?

Should I only go for 240p/480i?

crts are scalable for pretty much any resolution up to 480p (ntsc) and 576i (PAL/SECAM)

 

[televator]

So is a crt capable of 480p worse for 240p?

Should I only go for 240p/480i?

No, not necessarily.

 

[entremet]

It's the LG B6 OLED display.

Cool thanks!

Looks really good. I'm gonna wait unit the prices go down, but I've been sitting on my 720P plasma since it kills most LCDs.

 

[eEK!]

So is a crt capable of 480p worse for 240p?

Should I only go for 240p/480i?

I think it depends on other factors. The main knock I hear against >480i CRT TVs is that they can have internal scalers that produce more lag and a worse picture for <480i content than some LCDs.

 

[Brhoom]

Thanks a lot guys!

Might buy a crt this week, asking around to see if I can get one for free first, heck I know I can find a pvm for free here if I searched but I just want a crt with compenent.

And I think my country follow the pal standard (Kuwait) so I hope I can find a 60hz tv.

 

[grendelrt]

Someone had this problem with their PVM. Anyone know what's the cause and how to fix it?

I believe you are supposed to adjust those out, Fudoh responded to those on Shmups and he super knowledgable when it comes to CRTs.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56028

Can also be caps its seems if you cant adjust it out,

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=57281

 

[New002]

Someone had this problem with their PVM. Anyone know what's the cause and how to fix it?

Here you go

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=883357#p883357

I was looking to buy a PVM with this issue and did a bunch of googling trying to figure out what it was and how to address it. I can't find the post that details what causes it, but if I am remembering correctly Sony used a single incorrect capacitor for some? of their PVMs, and over time that causes the RGB lines to appear.

You can do what the post says, but my understanding is that's only a temporary fix. Seems like the only permanent fix is to eventually replace that capacitor if there comes a time when adjusting those settings no longer does the trick.

I did a bit more googling though and did come up with this post, that references the above: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53247

 

[YesManKablam]

Well, just finished moving to the other side of the country. Wasn't able to bring any of my consoles with me. I tried playing Rondo of Blood on a emulator to pass time last night and it's just not the same. I don't think I'm going to be able to go back to emulators now.

 

[Laevateinn]

While the Framemeister uses a mini-port so it doesn't matter which standard you use. I'm surprised there isn't more of a userbase for Japanese stuff.

For me it's because SCART accessories are much cheaper and easier to come by.

Apparently

Here in Europe our TV's and systems mostly come with RGB scart options to begin with.

Yeah, but they're PAL.

Thanks for updating. Sounds like it could be his last JP21 run one way or another. I'm in for two.

I might buy another when I get paid again if it looks like it's close.

In America Scart runs @ 60Hz just fine, because of freedom.

J/K SCART and JP21 are just cables. Refresh rates aren't hard wired in to them.

I know but native SCART devices are PAL so they run at 50 Hz right?

Simply because SCART switches are more common.

I KNOW!

 

[purdobol]

Yeah, but they're PAL.
I know but native SCART devices are PAL so they run at 50 Hz right?

Don't confuse TVs with consoles.
Most of the PAL TVs can do both 50/60Hz.
PAL consoles are indeed 50 Hz.
SCART is just a multi purpose connector. Can do RGB, component, S-video and composite. Plus audio of course.

 

[Laevateinn]

Don't confuse TVs with consoles.
Most of the PAL TVs can do both 50/60Hz.
PAL consoles are indeed 50 Hz.
SCART is just a multi purpose connector. Can do RGB, component, S-video and composite. Plus audio of course.

I know about the SCART cable but had no idea that the TVs could display at either frequency. That's wild.

 

[Mega]

crts are scalable for pretty much any resolution up to 480p (ntsc) and 576i (PAL/SECAM)

Up to 480i, most don't do 480p.

I think it depends on other factors. The main knock I hear against >480i CRT TVs is that they can have internal scalers that produce more lag and a worse picture for <480i content than some LCDs.

The main problem with 480p TVs is that some aren't 15KHz capable and add considerable lag when converting 240p/480i to 31KHz progressive.

 

[theSlacker]

Cool thanks!

Looks really good. I'm gonna wait unit the prices go down, but I've been sitting on my 720P plasma since it kills most LCDs.

I would say still wait a bit till a tv with lower HDR input lag comes out since that is the "next big thing" and the input lag with HDR active on the current sets just isn't good. Before the numbers on that came out I was looking heavily into the LG oled line as well.

Of course that dosn't apply as much to playing retro stuff on those screens like this thread is more dedicated to, but still something to keep in mind.

 

[Mega]

Some of the Samsungs have 20ms lag with 4k source + HDR and 37ms with 4K + HDR + 4:4:4.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag

I'm jumping in when these numbers are reached with OLED... And when they come down under $2000! The LG E6 is currently the best OLED at $3500 and 67ms lag.

 

[entremet]

Some of the Samsungs have 20ms lag with 4k source + HDR and 37ms with 4K + HDR + 4:4:4.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag

I'm jumping in when these numbers are reached with OLED... And when they come down under $2000! The LG E6 is currently the best OLED at $3500 and 67ms lag.

I'm not to versed on lag, but the lower the number the better?

 

[Timu]

I'm not to versed on lag, but the lower the number the better?

Hell yes!!!

 

[NormalFish]

I'm not to versed on lag, but the lower the number the better?

Xms lag means that there's X milliseconds time between when an input is pressed, and the display changes to reflect that input.

 

[Peltz]

Some of the Samsungs have 20ms lag with 4k source + HDR and 37ms with 4K + HDR + 4:4:4.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag

I'm jumping in when these numbers are reached with OLED... And when they come down under $2000! The LG E6 is currently the best OLED at $3500 and 67ms lag.

Still too slow with HDR as far as I'm concerned. I'm with you on waiting for OLED and under $2k though.

Do you think we're in for a long wait?

P.S. entremet, Here's a crash course on input lag:

Generally anything under 30ms is pretty good. 20ms is the gold standard on 1080p sets although some really fast sets are down to 16ms.

CRT's theoretically have 0ms of input lag. But if you were to measure them the same way as HDTV's then they would basically register as 8ms... That's why they feel so darn good to play on Super fast old school goodness.

If you're playing a game that runs at 60fps, each frame is 16.67ms. So basically you're always looking for HDTVs that are under 2 frames of input lag for a quality experience (in my opinion). Some people are more far sensitive about it than others.

 

[Mihos]

Could do what I'm doing and order from the next batch of these:

http://retrorgb.com/gscartsw.html

After varying experiences with cheaper boxes, I figure I may as well just pay a premium to get something that works without interference and degradation, but also something that's future-proof for me as it has 8 inputs.

I finally got in on this cycle. Figure I should get a hold of it November-ish judging by the message boards. I may need a second one at some point.

Why do you guys use SCART instead of JP21? The XRGB-3 uses JP21 so it only made sense for me to buy all my cables in that form. Is it because there's more documentation on SCART? Can you make SCART run at 60 FPS?

It took all of 20 minutes to change the one cable going into framemeister from JP21 to SCART and forget about it forever... vs. a life of living in the underbelly of occasional eBay finds and multiple cable conversion for JP21 accessories. At least in the US.

 

[Link83]

Can you make SCART run at 60 FPS?

I know but native SCART devices are PAL so they run at 50 Hz right?

I know about the SCART cable but had no idea that the TVs could display at either frequency. That's wild.

You might want to do a bit more reading, because it sounds like you think SCART cables can only support 50Hz, which is incorrect.

All SCART cables are capable of carrying 50Hz and 60Hz signals.

If that was the only reason you thought JP21 was superior, then you may want to reconsider.

 

[Mega]

Still too slow with HDR as far as I'm concerned. I'm with you on waiting for OLED and under $2k though.

Do you think we're in for a long wait?

P.S. entremet, Here's a crash course on input lag:

Generally anything under 30ms is pretty good. 20ms is the gold standard on 1080p sets although some really fast sets are down to 16ms.

Bit of a contradiction in the two bolded statements here!

I really want under 20ms with OLED but I dunno how long that will be, if ever. I read something from 2015? that prices would come down by 2017-2018... and by then I'll settle for 30ms if that's the best attainable performance. I'll be waiting patiently because I really don't like what I'm seeing in the tests of 4K LED panels.

CRT's theoretically have 0ms of input lag. But if you were to measure them the same way as HDTV's then they would basically register as 8ms... That's why they feel so darn good to play on Super fast old school goodness.

The methods for measuring input lag with HDTVs must not apply to CRTs because I can't imagine they're somehow slower than HD gaming monitors. I believe CRTs are under 1ms lag, virtually zero.

 

[Laevateinn]

You might want to do a bit more reading, because it sounds like you think SCART cables can only support 50Hz, which is incorrect.

All SCART cables are capable of carrying 50Hz and 60Hz signals.

If that was the only reason you thought JP21 was superior, then you may want to reconsider.

Not the cables. The cables are obviously the same but wired differently. The issue I have is that I used to use a xrgb3 which is JP standard whereas native scart tvs are 50 hz. I wasn't aware whether euros could use 60 hz or just 50 hz.

If you get into rgb as an American each standard is new to you so why not use the Japanese standard. Seems like everyone instead just modded their xrgbs or used a framemeister and opted for scart adapter instead of Japanese one.

It's not too difficult to find Japanese cables and accessories other than decent switches on eBay or yahoo auctions. I feel like there's something I missed that caused everyone to use scart. Is it that documentation is readily available in English?

 

[Teknoman]

so, the weird CRT colors i was getting definitely turned out to be the SCART to component adapter! tested on gunsmith's setup and yeah, it's that.

bought it last april but didn't have a chance to properly fuck with it for a while, good news is the seller is cool and is sending a replacement. can't wait for proper trinotron colors!

Isn't it one of those that need to be tweaked a bit? Like tuning pots from inside?

Yep, that's what I hate about that.

Yeah thats what happened with my first one, and then it just kept doing it even after adjusting. On my second and I havent had any issues so far (its been like a year or so now). I think that one the neo-geo forums guy made and posts on ebay doesnt have that issue?

I never noticed it until I uploaded my first video (that Dracula XX one for Night of Horror) and saw compared to others, the colors were off here and there.

 

[Khaz]

The methods for measuring input lag with HDTVs must not apply to CRTs because I can't imagine they're somehow slower than HD gaming monitors. I believe CRTs are under 1ms lag, virtually zero.

It comes down to how the measure is down. 8ms is when you register a change in the middle of the screen, as the refresh is continuous from top to bottom at 16ms. I suppose it depends on the console too, whether or not they allow change mid-frame. Because a modern display buffers the whole picture and display it all at once, there is potentially more difference at the top of the display than at the bottom. Anything measured lower than a CRT means there is a problem with the measurement.

 

[Khaz]

Not the cables. The cables are obviously the same but wired differently. The issue I have is that I used to use a xrgb3 which is JP standard whereas native scart tvs are 50 hz. I wasn't aware whether euros could use 60 hz or just 50 hz.

But as you said, the signal goes through the cable just as well, it doesn't matter whether the receiving display can do 50 or 60Hz. I'm confused by your confusion.

It's not too difficult to find Japanese cables and accessories other than decent switches on eBay or yahoo auctions. I feel like there's something I missed that caused everyone to use scart. Is it that documentation is readily available in English?

Everybody in Europe have been using Scart for the past thirty years. When our American friends want to get on the RGB train, the easiest for them is to follow the trend and import the very common hardware from Europe. JP21 was only used in some professional AV systems in Japan, it wasn't meant for the consumer and is therefore much rarer.

 

[Peltz]

Not the cables. The cables are obviously the same but wired differently. The issue I have is that I used to use a xrgb3 which is JP standard whereas native scart tvs are 50 hz. I wasn't aware whether euros could use 60 hz or just 50 hz.

If you get into rgb as an American each standard is new to you so why not use the Japanese standard. Seems like everyone instead just modded their xrgbs or used a framemeister and opted for scart adapter instead of Japanese one.

It's not too difficult to find Japanese cables and accessories other than decent switches on eBay or yahoo auctions. I feel like there's something I missed that caused everyone to use scart. Is it that documentation is readily available in English?

Documentation is available on both types of pin layouts. SCART is simply more popular to the English speaking world. There's really not much else to it.

 

[televator]

Some of the Samsungs have 20ms lag with 4k source + HDR and 37ms with 4K + HDR + 4:4:4.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag

I'm jumping in when these numbers are reached with OLED... And when they come down under $2000! The LG E6 is currently the best OLED at $3500 and 67ms lag.

Yeah, that's way too much dinero for TVs that still don't come close to fulfilling the 2020 standard. Plus, is 4:4:4 mode limited to that set's native res? I bet it is...

I'm still a bit thrown by the HDR standard... I wonder if manufacturers themselves even know what it fully is... I actually think not. 10bit standard is a nice step up from the native 8bit of past and most existing panels, but will we actually see more native 10bit panels or is it going to remain a bunch of marketing fluff where HDR gives manufacturers an excuse to toss "10bit" around when the reality is that the display simply dithers a 10bit signal down to 8bit? Also HDMI 1.3 opened up a 16bit pipeline... Unless I'm mistaken, the option has been there since the PS3 - "HDMI Deep Color." Just Sony's been unbelievably cryptic in explaining WTF it actually does.

I'm not jumping in indefinitely untul some manufacturers can finally sort this out and sell a coherent product. lol

 

[Laevateinn]

Everybody in Europe have been using Scart for the past thirty years. When our American friends want to get on the RGB train, the easiest for them is to follow the trend and import the very common hardware from Europe. JP21 was only used in some professional AV systems in Japan, it wasn't meant for the consumer and is therefore much rarer.

The monitor I use for my X68000 has a JP21 input on it so it was available at least in some consumer grade products.

 

[Peltz]

Do you guys ever watch 480i non-gaming content on your CRTs? Specifically, I'm talking about streaming old 4:3 shows that are Netflix but outputting them to your CRT in 480i. (I'm not sure if this is possible).

I think this may be possible on a PS3 with component cables if I'm not mistaken? I've never done it myself, but I'm about to start watching Twin Peaks (for the first time) and figured it could be cool to watch it on a real 4:3 set for the most authentic experience.

Any thoughts on whether it's worth the trouble?

 

[entremet]

Do you guys ever watch 480i non-gaming content on your CRTs? Specifically, I'm talking about streaming old 4:3 shows that are Netflix but outputting them to your CRT in 480i. (I'm not sure if this is possible).

I think this may be possible on a PS3 with component cables if I'm not mistaken? I've never done it myself, but I'm about to start watching Twin Peaks (for the first time) and figured it could be cool to watch it on a real 4:3 set for the most authentic experience.

Any thoughts on whether it's worth the trouble?

Seems like a Wii would be a better choice as the app was designed for the lower resolution Wii.

 

[Brhoom]

How does the xrgb mini look with a 4k tv?

Should I wait for a 4k version to come out?

 

[mechafan64]

Seems like a Wii would be a better choice as the app was designed for the lower resolution Wii.

Yeah, either Netflix on the Wii or video files playing through WiiMC look great connected to a CRT (all at 480i through component, of course).

 

[speedlolita]

Interestingly enough Netflix was released on PS2 in Brazil if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Mega]

Yeah, that's way too much dinero for TVs that still don't come close to fulfilling the 2020 standard. Plus, is 4:4:4 mode limited to that set's native res? I bet it is...

In the rtings link, they tested input lag at 1080p 4:4:4 on the 4K sets. It's one of the category columns. That's a strong indication it works outside native res.

I'm still a bit thrown by the HDR standard... I wonder if manufacturers themselves even know what it fully is... I actually think not. 10bit standard is a nice step up from the native 8bit of past and most existing panels, but will we actually see more native 10bit panels or is it going to remain a bunch of marketing fluff where HDR gives manufacturers an excuse to toss "10bit" around when the reality is that the display simply dithers a 10bit signal down to 8bit? Also HDMI 1.3 opened up a 16bit pipeline... Unless I'm mistaken, the option has been there since the PS3 - "HDMI Deep Color." Just Sony's been unbelievably cryptic in explaining WTF it actually does.

I'm not jumping in indefinitely untul some manufacturers can finally sort this out and sell a coherent product. lol

I would say the manufacturers know what it is they're selling and that it is so far from a cheap gimmick or marketing fluff. There are a few "HDR" sets that, like you said, reinterpret HDR as a sort of enhanced mode on 8-bit panels. But what people are excited for in a number of models and buying now are real 10-bit panels that offer a dramatically improved picture.

The only uncertainty I have read on is that standards aren't cemented so that the media's metadata (not the TV itself) is inconsistent in how to display HDR... so some stuff looks better than others, some content sees a bigger leap from SDR to HDR than other stuff, etc. That will be sorted out soon. I would have jumped on that LG OLED if lag were lower because I don't think it's lacking in any other way.

Do you guys ever watch 480i non-gaming content on your CRTs? Specifically, I'm talking about streaming old 4:3 shows that are Netflix but outputting them to your CRT in 480i. (I'm not sure if this is possible).

I think this may be possible on a PS3 with component cables if I'm not mistaken? I've never done it myself, but I'm about to start watching Twin Peaks (for the first time) and figured it could be cool to watch it on a real 4:3 set for the most authentic experience.

Any thoughts on whether it's worth the trouble?

I watched a little bit of my Star Wars trilogy DVDs over PS2 480i (before I got a 480p CRT). It looked very good to me. Didn't think to use Netflix on the Wii... Seems interesting.

 

[RiZ III]

So I managed to find a Sony Trinitron for 10$ over the weekend. It's in great condition and I think it's about 30 inches. Has component input. I hooked up my Genesis just using AV cables for now and even that looks pretty damn good. I do have Scart cables for both Saturn and Genesis though so I plan to get a Scart to component convert. Was pretty excited to get that but then I just saw when I checked my mail tonight that I got 100$ red light ticket T_T so this converter will have to wait.

 

[catabarez]

Any gaffers do repairs on old consoles? I have a Sega CD that won't work.

 

[purdobol]

I'm still a bit thrown by the HDR standard... I wonder if manufacturers themselves even know what it fully is... I actually think not.

Yeah they know. They will try to pull off ususal marketing crap that misleads people though. Same thing happened when HD became a standard. We probably can expect "10bit panel" being tossed around without mention of the contrast or the brightness levels. Or some weird creations like "HDR ready". Good news is we finally have standard that touches upon other important aspects of image quality other than resolution itself.

 

[dark10x]

How does the xrgb mini look with a 4k tv?

Should I wait for a 4k version to come out?

I posted this earlier...

...and some other shots. These are all snapped using a camera so the colors aren't quite right and things appear slightly bloomed but it should give you a rough idea. I definitely looks sharper in person and the colors don't bleed together quite like this.

 

[D.Lo]

Do you guys ever watch 480i non-gaming content on your CRTs? Specifically, I'm talking about streaming old 4:3 shows that are Netflix but outputting them to your CRT in 480i. (I'm not sure if this is possible).

I think this may be possible on a PS3 with component cables if I'm not mistaken? I've never done it myself, but I'm about to start watching Twin Peaks (for the first time) and figured it could be cool to watch it on a real 4:3 set for the most authentic experience.

Any thoughts on whether it's worth the trouble?

That is such a good idea, especially for Twin Peaks!

Now I'm going to work out a way to try it. Yeah maybe a Wii media player.

I do have the VCD player card for my Saturn lol...

 

[BocoDragon]

So considering the gscartsw, despite the premium price.

I wish I didn't have the FFXV "Ultimate Sucker Edition" to pay off in a couple months.

 

[theclaw135]

RetroRGB opened up pre-orders for SCART/JP21 switches again but they need 30 pre-orders or they won't make any JP21 switches. I feel so much despair right now.

Spoiler

Why do you guys use SCART instead of JP21? The XRGB-3 uses JP21 so it only made sense for me to buy all my cables in that form. Is it because there's more documentation on SCART? Can you make SCART run at 60 FPS?

Just practicality. RGB is the same signal either way. Consoles cannot distinguish or determine in any manner, whether a cable is JP21 or SCART. (as far as I'm aware)

Until the late 1990s most NTSC consoles were locked to 60 Hz in hardware. Neither games or cables may change that. For example if you insert a PAL game into a Master System or Genesis, the game will and must be run at 60 Hz speed, regardless of RGB.

 

[Brhoom]

I posted this earlier...



...and some other shots. These are all snapped using a camera so the colors aren't quite right and things appear slightly bloomed but it should give you a rough idea. I definitely looks sharper in person and the colors don't bleed together quite like this.

[/QUOTE]

Xrgb mini here I come!

[SPOILER]In a couple of months of saving money hopefully[/SPOILER]

 

[Mantrox]

Someone had this problem with their PVM. Anyone know what's the cause and how to fix it?

I have a 14" PVM and a 20" BVM, and both show those lines if i put them in 16:9; some models that supported 16:9 were supposed to be used with different screen masks in that mode, to hide the lines.
Just turn it to 4:3 and the image should stretch right out.

Otherwise it's either screwed up parameters on the geometry menu, or a hardware problem on the chassis.

 

[Morfeo]

RetroRGB opened up pre-orders for SCART/JP21 switches again but they need 30 pre-orders or they won't make any JP21 switches. I feel so much despair right now.

Spoiler

Why do you guys use SCART instead of JP21? The XRGB-3 uses JP21 so it only made sense for me to buy all my cables in that form. Is it because there's more documentation on SCART? Can you make SCART run at 60 FPS?

Everybody in Europe always used SCART, so it makes sense. I also asked in this very group if there were any benefits with jp21 before starting to buy the more expensive cables, and the answer i got made me stick to scart.

 

[gingerbeardman]

Do you guys ever watch 480i non-gaming content on your CRTs? Specifically, I'm talking about streaming old 4:3 shows that are Netflix but outputting them to your CRT in 480i. (I'm not sure if this is possible).

I've watched movies from SMB share in my PS2 using Simple Media System (homebrew media player)

Interestingly enough Netflix was released on PS2 in Brazil if I'm not mistaken.

it's still possible to install it on a modded PS2, but it stopped working a while back

 

[Morfeo]

So considering the gscartsw, despite the premium price.

I wish I didn't have the FFXV "Ultimate Sucker Edition" to pay off in a couple months.

Ditch that FFXV, you know it wont be anywhere near the game it should be

 

[storafötter]

Just practicality. RGB is the same signal either way. Consoles cannot distinguish or determine in any manner, whether a cable is JP21 or SCART. (as far as I'm aware)

Until the late 1990s most NTSC consoles were locked to 60 Hz in hardware. Neither games or cables may change that. For example if you insert a PAL game into a Master System or Genesis, the game will and must be run at 60 Hz speed, regardless of RGB.

This confuses me. Why do retro cables tell you, you need SFC scart for SFC`?

I bought some European ones they sold but they say arent compatible with SFC unless have some adapter.