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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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S

saveweyard

Banned
Going along with the 4:3 to 16:9 discussion, the team behind the Star Trek TOS remaster did a great job at keeping the original aspect ratio, except that they cropped their new effects shots, which were made at a 16:9 ratio, to match the 4:3 ratio of the rest of the show. Can't say I agree with that, but I guess they figured it would be too jarring for a normal viewing audience to suddenly go from having black bars for some scenes to widescreen for others. Apparently the Xbox Live version actually did this, but I haven't seen it.

Oh, and also when the remaster hit in Japan, whoever was putting it out decided everything should be in 16:9.
 
K

Khaz

Member
What is he talking about multiple cables/console combination for the PS1? First time I hear about it.

Oh and here he goes on how PS1 games on PS3 are better than on a PS1 with RGB. Eh.

[edit] ok the guy is unhinged. The GX4000 doesn't support RGB? The thing has a full 21pin connector on it!
 
T

televator

Member
Khaz said:
What is he talking about multiple cables/console combination for the PS1? First time I hear about it.

Oh and here he goes on how PS1 games on PS3 are better than on a PS1 with RGB. Eh.
Click to expand...

I still think that's inconclusive, but yeah, there he goes jumping to conclusions.
 
P

PumpkinSpice

Banned
Shin Johnpv said:
Adam Koralik got a framemeister.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_sD3yU05_w
Click to expand...

I was all prepared to watch this as a cringe video, and then I remembered I added him to my Youtube block-list. For good reasons.

televator said:
This could be fun... Wonder who told him the HDMIs do nothing? You can scale HDMI signals on the FM.
Click to expand...

Is this a thing anyone here does? I use those HDMI slots in passthrough mode for my PS3/360 but I've never found my TV scaler to be all that bad at 480p+.
 
T

televator

Member
SheepyGuy said:
I was all prepared to watch this as a cringe video, and then I remembered I added him to my Youtube block-list. For good reasons.



Is this a thing anyone here does? I use those HDMI slots in passthrough mode for my PS3/360 but I've never found my TV scaler to be all that bad at 480p+.
Click to expand...

Not sure, but I can't say no one has legit reason to use it. Plus, that bit of info was just plain incorrect. He really shouldn't just rely on word of mouth for functions of a product that is litereally right in front of him.
 
S

Shin Johnpv

Member
Yeah the video is pretty bad.

Lots of miss information, and just lack of knowledge. Installing the english firmware is stupidly simple why would you pay money to buy one with english firmware already installed? Silly.

Also I know some people run a splitter on their like say PS3, or Xbox 360. So that one HDMI goes to the receiver or tv, and another one goes to the framemeister to be scaled to 1080p to go to their capture card. So that they don't have to change settings and such.
 
K

King Al B

Member
I got Panasonic CRT (CT36e13g) a while back for free. The colors are messed up and the geometry is off. I cant fix these in the standard menu. So i went in the service menu and messed around. I got the color and geometry better, but i think i can do better.

Can anyone help as to what the settings are and what happens when i raise and lower the values? I have googled without any luck, so im turning to GAF for help.

iPmldq9.jpg
Click to expand...

Video:
Color
Tini
Brigh
Cont
B-Y_G
Cut_G
Cut_R
Cut_B
BRT
R-DR
B-DR

HDEF:
H-POS
H-WID
PCC
TOPG
BTMG
TRAP

FINE:
PCCHG
PCCHS
PCCCLS
TOPSL
BTMSL

VDEF:
VEAMP
V-C
V-S
VPOS

Its alot of freaking settings, but any help would greatly be appreciated.
 
F

Fuzzy

I would bang a hot farmer!
Shin Johnpv said:
Yeah the video is pretty bad.

Lots of miss information, and just lack of knowledge. Installing the english firmware is stupidly simple why would you pay money to buy one with english firmware already installed? Silly.

Also I know some people run a splitter on their like say PS3, or Xbox 360. So that one HDMI goes to the receiver or tv, and another one goes to the framemeister to be scaled to 1080p to go to their capture card. So that they don't have to change settings and such.
Click to expand...
After watching the video I really think he should watch the MLiG videos and read everything on RetroRGB because he has no idea what he's talking about on many things. He talks about MLiG videos but it's obvious he doesn't understand them.
 
P

PumpkinSpice

Banned
TBF there's a lot to learn about the Framemeister. If he did a video that was like "I just got this thing and I have almost no idea what I'm doing" and was honest about it that would be fine. Trying to speak with authority while living in ignorance is just.... ughhhhh.

I'm not sure why but a lot of men just can't seem to admit when they don't know or understand something fully. It's really annoying.
 
P

purdobol

Member
King Al B said:
Can anyone help as to what the settings are and what happens when i raise and lower the values? I have googled without any luck, so im turning to GAF for help.
Click to expand...

First of all write down all the settings so you can revert back just in case.

Video:
Color, Tint,Brigh,Cont - this should be self explanatory. Color temp, tint, brightness, contrast.

Cut_G - Green cut off |
Cut_R - Red cut off | - Color correction.
Cut_B - Blue cut off |

H-POS - Horizontal position. So horizontal centering.
H-WID - Horizontal width. So horizontal overscan +\-

VPOS - Vertical position. Vertical centering.

The rest I don't know. Download 240p test suite for useful test patterns. And good luck i guess :)
 
K

King Al B

Member
purdobol said:
First of all write down all the settings so you can revert back just in case.

Video:
Color, Tint,Brigh,Cont - this should be self explanatory. Color temp, tint, brightness, contrast.

Cut_G - Green cut off |
Cut_R - Red cut off | - Color correction.
Cut_B - Blue cut off |

H-POS - Horizontal position. So horizontal centering.
H-WID - Horizontal width. So horizontal overscan +-

VPOS - Vertical position. Vertical centering.

The rest I don't know. Download 240p test suite for useful test patterns. And good luck i guess :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link, i got a modded Wii so im going to give that a try.

It appears the whole scan is rotated counter clockwise i bit, but none of the settings seem to adjust that. So far im having fun messing with it, havent gotten to the point of frustration yet.
 
K

Khaz

Member
King Al B said:
It appears the whole scan is rotated counter clockwise i bit, but none of the settings seem to adjust that. So far im having fun messing with it, havent gotten to the point of frustration yet.
Click to expand...

It's something to adjust physically. At the end of the tube, the small board and stuff rotated slightly because of age, and would need to be adjusted back. The bad news is that it's the very thing never to touch else you end up dead by a thousand volts electrocution (yes, even the board). You can't even discharge it as obviously the tube needs to be lit to be corrected.
 
L

Lambtron

Unconfirmed Member
So since my PVM is on the fritz and I can find no one to help me troubleshoot, I picked up a free 24" WEGA from Craigslist. It has one S-video hookup in the front and one component in the back. I have a SCART switch that I run into my PVM, so I'm thinking getting a SCART to component adapter is going to be my best choice here?
 
C

cyborgnumberblue

Member
Lambtron said:
So since my PVM is on the fritz and I can find no one to help me troubleshoot, I picked up a free 24" WEGA from Craigslist. It has one S-video hookup in the front and one component in the back. I have a SCART switch that I run into my PVM, so I'm thinking getting a SCART to component adapter is going to be my best choice here?
Click to expand...

If that TV accepts it, then yeah. I ran the same setup myself and it worked great.
 
K

King Al B

Member
Khaz said:
It's something to adjust physically. At the end of the tube, the small board and stuff rotated slightly because of age, and would need to be adjusted back. The bad news is that it's the very thing never to touch else you end up dead by a thousand volts electrocution (yes, even the board). You can't even discharge it as obviously the tube needs to be lit to be corrected.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the warning, im not about crack the thing open. Electricity scares me anyway.
 
M

Mega

Banned
King Al B said:
I got Panasonic CRT (CT36e13g) a while back for free. The colors are messed up and the geometry is off. I cant fix these in the standard menu. So i went in the service menu and messed around. I got the color and geometry better, but i think i can do better.

Can anyone help as to what the settings are and what happens when i raise and lower the values? I have googled without any luck, so im turning to GAF for help.

Its alot of freaking settings, but any help would greatly be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Purdobol already got the stuff one would know. the rest... you have to track down a service manual, whether PDF or a physical one on eBay or something. Maybe look for the manuals of similar Panasonic models. Most of that stuff is cryptic to everyone but a service tech.

televator said:
Cropping 4:3 material to 16:9 is like up there with stretch o vision as an AV trigger of mine. I fucking hate seeing that happen. Anybody who played REmake-master is 16:9 should be deeply ashamed of their sin.
Click to expand...

I was going to say video games don't matter much because you can just have the game render more of the scene, but then I remembered RE is literally one scene after another of 4:3 art. Cropping it to 16:9 or stretching it wide is definitely wrong!

Here's something a little different! I fired up Netflix on Wii. I can do 480p on one CRT, but I wanted to see it in 480i across several of my monitors. Tbh, it looks fantastic. The pics fall a little short of how vibrant it is, and of course you can't see how fluid it all comes together. Netflix streaming shits up the PQ a bit, so DVD should be even better. The comparative ugliness of standard 2000s LCD should go down as a dark time in television history.

The first few seasons of Sunny are 4:3 and shot on film instead of digitally I believe.
7HMC7ht.jpg
Click to expand...

Besides the wide crop on Netflix, this show looks amazing... and also jogged my memory why every boy in middle school tuned in to watch.
f3DoZG1.jpg
j9xiWkF.jpg
e7AHFMB.jpg
Click to expand...

The Running Man!
na2hslE.jpg
xUo45Tx.jpg

M6hV7pq.jpg
RJdm41v.jpg

C080w6i.jpg
x6rmjGn.jpg
Click to expand...
 
entremet

entremet

Member
Woah!

OT2 incoming.

I remember knowing nothing about old displays before this thread. This plus MLiG has been great educations.

So far, I have no Framemeister or modded systems yet, but should be in the next thread, maybe page 100 lol.
 
M

Mega

Banned
I will make the new thread. The OP will consist entirely of several dozen ultra high-resolution photos. I will make sure that whoever dares enter the thread pays a very high (bandwidth) price and is serious about being here.
 
K

Khaz

Member
Sub_Level said:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00067AXYU/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Would that be a good TV for PS1 and PS2 games? I'm asking because I have access to one, but it's super heavy and would be tough to move.

I own both PS1 and PS2 + S-Video and PS2 Component cables if that's relevant.
Click to expand...

It's an HD CRT with a 4:3 aspect ratio.
- SD stuff won't look as good as on an SD tube, and with one frame of lag (that you won't likely notice)
- widescreen HD will be letterboxed, but lagless.

Depending on how it looks displaying widescreen stuff, it may be good to have for later consoles like xbox, wii, and of course the 480p games on the PS2. You won't get the characteristic visual you could have on a 240p display (big round pixels, visible scan lines) but it should look better than what you had before if what you had wasn't an SD CRT.

It's a good secondary display imo. Get it and keep looking for that SD CRT with Component input.
 
P

Peltz

Member
Mega said:
Nice try, traitors. This isn't simply Upscale-GAF!
Click to expand...
RetroSexuals |OT2| SCART, Screens, Scaling, and Scanline Sexiness

Retro Gaming Done Right |OT2| I can see clearly now that the rainbow-effect is gone

Retro Gaming Done Right |OT2| Low res CRTs + Upscale people

Retro Gaming Done Right |OT2| Why Can't Metroid Dot Crawl?

Retro Image Quality |OT2| Goodbye Composhit Hello Rabbithole

Edit:
Chacranajxy said:
Upscale-GAF |OT2| Better than those cheap 4K whores across the street
Click to expand...

Lol
 
Sub_Level

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Khaz said:
It's an HD CRT with a 4:3 aspect ratio.
- SD stuff won't look as good as on an SD tube, and with one frame of lag (that you won't likely notice)
- widescreen HD will be letterboxed, but lagless.

Depending on how it looks displaying widescreen stuff, it may be good to have for later consoles like xbox, wii, and of course the 480p games on the PS2. You won't get the characteristic visual you could have on a 240p display (big round pixels, visible scan lines) but it should look better than what you had before if what you had wasn't an SD CRT.

It's a good secondary display imo. Get it and keep looking for that SD CRT with Component input.
Click to expand...

Well it's at my aunt's and she wouldn't lemme have it for free haha but I think I'll pass. I can't stress how HEAVY that tv is. Moving it is a nightmare. Doesn't matter if you have a dolly or multiple guys helping you, it's a messed up experience regardless.

Thanks for the reply m8.
 
C

CharlesDangus

Member
Just got my HD Retrovision Genesis component cables today (With model 1 adapter). I'm very pleased with the results and am happy to report that my HDTV (Sony KDL-50W800C) cooperates nicely with the Genesis' 240p signal over component. I'm pretty stoked that I won't need to invest in an expensive upscaling solution (for now). I can post off screen photos if anyone's interested. Side note: I've noticed the infamous "jail bars" in large areas of a single color. This can be remedied with a mod, correct? Is there a mod that can achieve this without sacrificing composite output?

Now just waiting on my OG GBA with AGS-101 backlit screen mod, and GB-Everdrive.
 
G

geniusbits

Member
Is there any point in having calibration equipment like this? Does anyone use it, rather than just eyeballing the screen with the test suite or something similar?
IMG_2500.jpg
 
M

Madao

Member
Madao said:
i'm interested on the best way to get an N64 signal to show on a Plasma without any input lag.
Click to expand...

my first post in this topic is quite the blast from the past.

back then i still had a Plasma and didn't have a FM yet. i replaced the plasma with my current TV and gor a FM just like a few months after that post and still have them chugging along.

while Plasmas died, i got my wish this year with the Ultra HDMI since that's as good as it gets right now (well, there's PC monitors but i haven't gone that far yet)
 
theclaw135

theclaw135

Banned
For curiosity's sake, what are the largest standard definition 4:3 CRTs? That do not accept or support 480p in any fashion. Any model numbers to yay or nay?
 
P

PumpkinSpice

Banned
theclaw135 said:
For curiosity's sake, what are the largest standard definition 4:3 CRTs? That do not accept or support 480p in any fashion. Any model numbers to yay or nay?
Click to expand...

Large CRTs in general are a nay. The technology of directing electrons with magnets just doesn't work well for large screens. You get [sometimes severe] geometry issues.
 
M

Mega

Banned
geniusbits said:
Is there any point in having calibration equipment like this? Does anyone use it, rather than just eyeballing the screen with the test suite or something similar?
IMG_2500.jpg
Click to expand...

No point. We're not color grading photos or video footage for clients here and the equipment isn't made for video games. Unlike real human skin tones, there's no one precise color for Mario's overalls. I'm not even sure how you would use that with your consoles as I'm pretty sure it's meant to be for creating custom color profiles on a PC connected to a display.
 
T

televator

Member
Mega said:
I was going to say video games don't matter much because you can just have the game render more of the scene, but then I remembered RE is literally one scene after another of 4:3 art. Cropping it to 16:9 or stretching it wide is definitely wrong!
Click to expand...

Even in a fully 3D game there was the famous case of Bioshock. Where 2K simply cropped into the original 4:3 FOV to get 16:9. Ahh... Modern gaming. lol

Edit:

Upscale Vs. CRT 2| New age of retro gaming
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
wooo! new component to SCART replacement adapter showed up today, and the colors are fantastic on this trinotron now! really gotta thank specialty-av (i think it was) for this, just so happy to play lightgun/rhythm/etc games again!

#teamXRGB
#teamPVM
#teamCRT

related: anyone have use for my old adapter? the greens are shot, but its possible if you open it up & look at the wires, maybe you could get it looking right
 
D

dhonk

Member
Hey guys, I got an XRGB Mini and an Elgato HD60 Pro Capture Card. I wanna do some Windows 98 PC capture. Meaning I pretty much only have VGA as an output. Best way to get this going?

I know for the Dreamcast you can get the Toro for Sync Combining, but would that even support PC resolutions? 1024x768 probably.

EDIT: Oh I guess I can just do it like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhSJOHqIKo8
 
P

Peltz

Member
SheepyGuy said:
Large CRTs in general are a nay. The technology of directing electrons with magnets just doesn't work well for large screens. You get [sometimes severe] geometry issues.
Click to expand...
You also get very bad convergence issues (speaking from experience here). My folks had like a 43" CRT in 4:3 format way back in the 90s. Everything looked like it had a red outline.

PS:

Retro Done Right OT2: Razor Sharp Pixels and Low Poly Perfection
 
F

Fabthegnome

Member
Mega said:
Great monitor, worth it. The 20" PVMs are physically huge. Heavy and take up a considerable amount of space. Start out with this for a month or so and see if you're happy using it and with CRT gaming in general before you commit to a larger set. You may even find you're happy with the 14L2 and not want something else.

I would try to get under $100 USD but the seller may swiftly reject that. The UK has less PVMs than the States and their prices (online) have generally gone way up.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the advice, I happened to be offered a BVM-20F1U/E earlier this week too with about 60k hours on it for around £350, so I'm still having trouble making up my mind, but £70 for the 14L2 would certainly be easier on the wallet. XD
 
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