Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Don't pretty much all games with customizable characters do that, not just Pokemon?
Is the Pokémon "Are you a boy or girl?" thing outdated?
- Thread starter Flowmoney
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i disagree with most of your sentiments:
One: How should 'society progress' when within any discipline (media, toys, TV, film, games) there's people saying "nah, don't touch the status quo here, have 'society' progress first, then we can talk" ... games are a part of society. games shape society.
Two: That's a strawman and a slippery slope. And yes, if Oak were to ask you "are you a christian, a muslim or a jew", hindi, buddhist and atheist (="other" / "neither") people would obviously want to be included. But alas, Professor Oak doesn't ask you about your religion, he does ask you about your gender, though, and he doesn't offer enough options to cover the entire spectrum.
Also, if you equate "being fat" even remotely to something like a person's gender identity, i don't know what to say... One shapes you as a person, as a human being, the other is simply whether or not you consume more calories than you burn. That kind of thinking comes from the same place as "LOL ATTACK HELICOPTER AS A GENDER OLOLO".
You'd fit in rather nicely on reddits like "tumblrpls"...
Went to Disney World last week and heard it a hundred times....
chillybright
Banned
What do gender neutral pronouns sound like? I know some languages don't even have them and Pokemon games are localised everywhere. Iirc Frech even has verbs linked with the subject.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
I knew from the title this would be very good look at the ignorant part of neogaf but I really didn't expect the amount of transphobic comments.
Or just hate for non-binary gender in general.
Or just hate for non-binary gender in general.
I think so.
You can argue it may ask only sex, but it still almost always determines how you get labelled in the game.
purseowner
Member
More difficult to achieve in some languages than others, sure. A common set in English and the easiest to implement is they/them.
Likewise. I'm rather stunned.
Linkstrikesback
Member
The difference in opinion, I think, is what effect who the character is has on the game.
I dislike character creators because they tend to come with the characters identity being unimportant. In souls, as you gave as an example, who the player character is doesn't matter in the least. They have virtually no effect on the story at all beyond being the arbitrary person who kills all the monsters hanging around. As a recent example of the complete opposite, I cared more for Geralt than every single player created character I've made added together, and I don't think that could have happened if Geralt wasn't a person built in to the world, who could instead be anyone.
In terms of Pokémon this doesn't matter that much because the player character is basically a non-entity already. On the other hand, if at the end of gold/silver, that red wasn't recognisable because they had to choose a default which inevitably didn't look like the previous character you used if they had a character creator, that moment would have been way less cool to child me.
For pokemon, if it were up to me I'd just leave it as it appears in sun/moon with a few designs for male and female models and turn the restrictions on clothes the characters can wear off.
well, i would guess that the less you feel accepted in the real world, the more important it is to be able to at least be able to fit in to artificial worlds.
Also, even if we disregard the "self insertion", we could be talking about "representation".
literally nobody said that
It's rather sad that offering those who wish to be represented an option that is no detrimental to anyone else's enjoyment of the game seems to be such an offensive concept, though.
Conkerkid11
Member
I don't known of any game with the option of choosing gender that allows for something other than male or female though.
Why's this specifically about Pokémon?
Also, how many people are choosing their gender based on their real life gender? I choose female in most games because that's the gender I'm attracted to, and that's what I want to be looking at for the next however many hours I'm going to be playing the game, rather than some guy who I've tried my best to make look exactly like me. I don't want to play me in a video game. I don't want to watch a movie where I'm the protagonist. I don't want to put myself in the shoes of the main character in the book I'm reading.
These are all fictional characters who absolutely don't need to be capable of being as similar to the person controlling them as possible.
You can't date anybody in Pokémon. Your gender is completely unimportant. You're trying to catch Pokémon. Maybe they should play it safe, make it first-person, never show your character, and have everybody refer to you only as your custom name.
Why's this specifically about Pokémon?
Also, how many people are choosing their gender based on their real life gender? I choose female in most games because that's the gender I'm attracted to, and that's what I want to be looking at for the next however many hours I'm going to be playing the game, rather than some guy who I've tried my best to make look exactly like me. I don't want to play me in a video game. I don't want to watch a movie where I'm the protagonist. I don't want to put myself in the shoes of the main character in the book I'm reading.
These are all fictional characters who absolutely don't need to be capable of being as similar to the person controlling them as possible.
You can't date anybody in Pokémon. Your gender is completely unimportant. You're trying to catch Pokémon. Maybe they should play it safe, make it first-person, never show your character, and have everybody refer to you only as your custom name.
purseowner
Member
Saints Row has a gender slider from 2 onwards.
And we're discussing Pokémon because the OP and thread title is specifically concerned with it, but arguably it's an important series to include this when it's meant to represent and mirror the kids who play it.
Probably because it outright asks I guess instead of giving the option for you to toggle between the two options.
As for examples of it being avoided, some text based games allow more customization which generally isn't feasible in graphics-based games. Some simply ask why you'd prefer between the two options. Undertale chooses a design that's pretty ambiguous allowing people to use whatever label they want.
So is asking are you a boy or a girl finding out the sex (is there only two of these?) or gender?
I identify as an apache helicopter. I wish they would put that option in the game.
Captain Europe
Member
I find it sad that people throw around the word ''offensive'' at the slightest hint of critical thinking.
What have we come to seriously.
Because helicopters and genders are the same thing?
chillybright
Banned
But would not that lead to confusion in some contexts since they/them are plurals?
"They are about to defeat the Elite four, I must stop them!"
Conkerkid11
Member
Makes me glad I'll be dead within 70 years.
purseowner
Member
They and them have two usages and can also be used to refer to someone without signifying gender, and this usage is by no means new.
Well, Oak wants to know what pronouns to use, the game wants to know how you dress - so it's about gender.
Even the Saints Row series still asks the option in the presets. I don't think I even realized there was a slider.
KojiKnight
Member
Who said it was offensive that the game asks if you're a boy or a girl?
Cause the only people I've seen are those claiming that that's what this thread is about.
I am, however, seeing a lot of people who are saying "why ask about gender at all?" and another set of people who geniunely seem upset that anyone would want a non-boy or girl only option.
Captain Europe
Member
This is what makes you say that, not all the horror that's going on in the world like hunger?
Get some perspective in life dude.
This was a discussion I remember back about 8-10 years. It's just accepted now, though at the time I think it had more to do with grammar when one didn't know the person's gender and not wanting to assume, so you saw use like 'he or she'.
Errr.....they have them labeled on multiple screens.
So he/she should not be used to describe anyone I guess before you confirm their gender identity? Or rather they should be removed all together if they exclude people? Cant they be used to determine sex or is it always gender?
I didn't realise depending on what clothes I wear it determines my gender, I think that seems a bit silly.
I love you.
Conkerkid11
Member
And this is the easiest way to do it. I don't want to hear about the next Pokémon generation having less content because they needed to create more customization options for your character for no reason.
Even easier is you play as Ash or whoever the character of that gen is. Poof, now you can't even change your gender. Now it's like a Zelda game.
Captain Europe
Member
It's nice to want things, like every one else on this planet.
UncleSporky
Member
KojiKnight
Member
Some people are just dead set on making this more complicated than it needs to be...
Remove the binary question on character creation (are you a boy or girl?)
Let the player choose what they want their character to look like.
Allow all character models to wear male and female clothing.
Even Animal Crossing lets you wear male/female clothing on whichever character you pick.
Finale Fireworker
Member
I'll weigh in. The politics of inclusivity and representation have already been discussed. This is something I strongly support, but will not retread from that perspective. I'll take the immersion angle, which may speak better to those who enjoy the luxury of being represented.
I always play video games as female characters. If there is a gendered option with matching chromosomes, I choose it.
I do this because, as a cisgendered man, I find the opportunity to play as a female more enriching than other gender options. There are many reasons I feel this way, all of them are personal to me, and I feel a stronger connection with the character when I play female.
For all intents and purposes, having a strong connection with your character is the same as our favorite hot-button sensation as immersion.
Immersion is not about projection. Immersion is about connection. Seeing yourself in a character or world isn't about it necessarily being you. The point of a Mary Sue, which is the protagonist format Pokémon uses, is to enable the player to cast the character in a way that is personal to their interest.
This is why skin color benefits immersion. This is why gender benefits immersion. It's the same with age, weight, and any detail you can alter to create an experience you connect most strongly with.
Because my interest is female characters, I am often indulged. I see one of two options that is appealing to me and I get to choose it. If somebody took this option away and made me play a male Mary Sue, my enjoyment of the game would be reduced. I would not connect as strongly with my character. Every time a male avatar occoupied a space that was supposed to be mine, I would be reminded that this game did not acknowledge me.
I have to imagine this is how other people feel when the genders and races they want are not recognized. I have to imagine they, too, feel disconnected from their avatars. Their immersion is less-so than people who are satisfied with the options available. They, like me, would always enjoy the game more if options were available to benefit the experience they seek.
So what this really comes down to is helping more people enjoy the game. All the people asking "but when do you stop?" and "how much is enough?" seem to not understand how minor of changes would need to be made to maximize inclusivity for all players. Consider how significant of a change it is for Sun/Moon to add a fourth skin tone over the three that were available on XY. This single addition, which surely took absolutely minimal effort to implement, will now benefit people who were previously left out.
And when faced with the opportunity to help more people enjoy a game, wouldn't you always pursue that opportunity? Wouldn't you always want the most amount of people to get maximum satisfaction from their experience?
It is easy to accommodate people. Unfortunately, it is also easy for people to come up with reasons not to. If you are one of those players who doesn't care either way, maybe this conversation isn't for you. This is a conversation for the people who do care. And lots of people do.
In the end, people play games in different ways and have different expectations when they begin. The current (but improving) game environment has always left groups of people out. Any opportunity to include more people and indulge more immersive fantasy should be taken.
ESPECIALLY in a game like Pokémon.
I always play video games as female characters. If there is a gendered option with matching chromosomes, I choose it.
I do this because, as a cisgendered man, I find the opportunity to play as a female more enriching than other gender options. There are many reasons I feel this way, all of them are personal to me, and I feel a stronger connection with the character when I play female.
For all intents and purposes, having a strong connection with your character is the same as our favorite hot-button sensation as immersion.
Immersion is not about projection. Immersion is about connection. Seeing yourself in a character or world isn't about it necessarily being you. The point of a Mary Sue, which is the protagonist format Pokémon uses, is to enable the player to cast the character in a way that is personal to their interest.
This is why skin color benefits immersion. This is why gender benefits immersion. It's the same with age, weight, and any detail you can alter to create an experience you connect most strongly with.
Because my interest is female characters, I am often indulged. I see one of two options that is appealing to me and I get to choose it. If somebody took this option away and made me play a male Mary Sue, my enjoyment of the game would be reduced. I would not connect as strongly with my character. Every time a male avatar occoupied a space that was supposed to be mine, I would be reminded that this game did not acknowledge me.
I have to imagine this is how other people feel when the genders and races they want are not recognized. I have to imagine they, too, feel disconnected from their avatars. Their immersion is less-so than people who are satisfied with the options available. They, like me, would always enjoy the game more if options were available to benefit the experience they seek.
So what this really comes down to is helping more people enjoy the game. All the people asking "but when do you stop?" and "how much is enough?" seem to not understand how minor of changes would need to be made to maximize inclusivity for all players. Consider how significant of a change it is for Sun/Moon to add a fourth skin tone over the three that were available on XY. This single addition, which surely took absolutely minimal effort to implement, will now benefit people who were previously left out.
And when faced with the opportunity to help more people enjoy a game, wouldn't you always pursue that opportunity? Wouldn't you always want the most amount of people to get maximum satisfaction from their experience?
It is easy to accommodate people. Unfortunately, it is also easy for people to come up with reasons not to. If you are one of those players who doesn't care either way, maybe this conversation isn't for you. This is a conversation for the people who do care. And lots of people do.
In the end, people play games in different ways and have different expectations when they begin. The current (but improving) game environment has always left groups of people out. Any opportunity to include more people and indulge more immersive fantasy should be taken.
ESPECIALLY in a game like Pokémon.
chillybright
Banned
Yeah I know about that usage. It is more about referring some faceless entity such as "find someone and ask them" and is not used as referring someone specific.
Pokemon were gender fluid before people were.
funnily, originall Pokemon were rather genderless (or rather non-sex-binary), weren't they? Apart from Nidorans. They actually went through the effort to make even more pokemon explicitly males and females.
what the hell? do you SERIOUSLY believe that?
That's such an absurd alibi of a reason to counter inclusivity. Do you seriously believe changing a few lines of dialogue would be detrimental to the overall amount of content in a Pokemon game?
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
For German it is common to use both forms. So usually, the base form of a noun describing a human is male and the female form can be made using a suffix -in. E.g. a student (of any gender, as well as specifically male) may be called Student, whereas a female student is Studentin. One common form is StudentIn (writing a capital I, which was popularised by a nation wide left-green newspaper called taz), another one ist Student/-in, again naming both sexes. There is also the form where you build a new noun out of the corresponding activity. To study means studieren in German, so it is common to use Studierende (people who study) instead of Student, because in that case, one uses plural and can often avoid to specify a gender. Finally, some more extreme people use the form Student*in, where the star is often placed in front of the in, but need not be and is explicitly meant to mean Student, Studentin or anything in between. A variation of that is found in a ruleset by a Berlin university, where they demand using _ anywhere in any word to express the multitude of genders no matter what you say. The _ is meant to be even said, in form of a random pause mid-word.
Omega Ultimus
Member
It can be either in that sort of question - generally, asking if you're a boy or girl is asking if you're a cisgender male (born as a male, identify as a male in terms of gender) or you're a cisgender female (born as a female, identify as a female in terms of gender). Kind of tricky, but it's because gender is framed around the differences of the sexes in terms of behavior as well as physical characteristics. Combine that with the Western conception of two genders (other cultures and subcultures may have only one or multiple genders) and you get the implicit assumption that you're one of the two cisgender types mentioned.
For example, in a Pokemon game, you may think that you're just being asked your biological sex, but the two character models provided follow a gender template as well - the male wears gender-typical male clothes while the female wears gender-typical clothes - so you're being asked whether you identify as a cisgender male or female. Shit's complicated, and gets even more complex when you delineate the differences between non-binary genders, chromosomal sex, hormonal sex (may be wrong name for it, but I'm referring to the different genital structure, which is determined by hormones), and biological sex (total outward physical appearance).
You have to choose one or the other ...
I wonder if we can ever play as a grown adult? I'm getting older, but still playing as a 10 year old child
Target demographics take priority.
In game canon, a premise of Pokemon is a trainer starting their journey which happens to people at age 10.
in english, you can use "they" "them"
in german, using the "genderless" neutral would actually be rather offensive, as the neutrum is used for animals and objects - you'd be thereby dehumanizing the person. It's like calling a (transgender, for example) person "it".
english, by being such a simplistic language with regards to gender, thankfully offers possibilities to be inclusive.
yup
chillybright
Banned
I mean there are gender specific occupation words just in English and there is no 3rd option. Such as actor/actress waiter/waitress etc. Idk are there any movements to abolish these words?
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