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[Ysarus]

It's work but it's not such a mountain that pokemon as a franchise as to cut corners here.
Pokémon games these days have a team working for translation in French anyway.
There's still a limit as far as space goes but it can't absolutely be that low that it can't be worked around.

and gender neutral doesn't really work in French, it's male by default but that's the language.

That's what I meant, I don't think character limits are a problem anymore. The only problem now is making it sound natural, which is sometimes impossible.

French being incompatible with a neutral gender is a pretty big problem if you're trying to leave the gender choice out of the game entirely.

 

[Fliesen]

I've had to translate relatively short texts from English to French where the protagonist's gender was purposefully left unknown. "Negligible" is not the word I would pick. It's a mountain of work, and it usually doesn't sound great in the end.

of course the original dialogue would need to allow for easier translation into a non-gendered text. If the game had a song
"HE - HE'S THE BOY - HE'S THE BOY WHO BEAT THE CHAMP.
HE - HE'S SO COOL - HIS ENEMIES GET CRAMPS!" it would be a bit harder

still, i think even if the non-gendered version maybe sound wonky here and there - it would only be read by people who would value being able to be a non-binary gendered people over having "the original gender-binary dialogue" anyways.

and yeah, negligible isn't the right word either - but would you agree that it would very likely not require resources to such a degree where it would be a detriment to the original game's content?

Alright, I just got to ask. If you don't identify as either, what do you identify yourself as?

Call me old, but I have no clue.


I don't know if the OP was actually offended by it, but yes, it's not something you should be offended by.

neither. both.
are you a Stones or a Beatles fan? Do you like Hip-Hop or Rock? it's a false dichotomy.

Wtf is this shit? What else is there? It's either you are a male or female. If you "identify" yourself as one pick it.

dude, this thread has 12 pages (if you're cool!), maybe bother to read just ONE of them and you'll find out that it's not that simple. (also that people get banned for such drive-by posts.) So my advice would be: rephrase your post to actually "join the conversation."

 

[Roni]

TIL I cannot wear pants because I have a vagina.

No. Unfortunately, today you missed the point.

 

[PSqueak]

Visiting this thread has gotten me thinking, here's a new idea:

Opening scene shows the new professor talking to the playable character's mom as they arrived to new town, then the professor asks "So, which one is your kid?".

Camera pans out to a bunch of kids, player chooses from:

-Default male avatar with default male clothes
-Default female avatar with default female clothes
-Androgynous avatar with non gender specific clothes
-Default male avatar with default female clothes
-Default female avatar with default male clothes


Something like this would avoid awkward questions ("are you a boy or a girl?") and would give more or less a visual, easy to understand approachable idea of gender as a spectrum, maybe it's not the best end it all solution, but it's something i could see a game trying some time.

 

[panama chief]

I remember when male was your only choice. Now it's two genders. Now you want non genders. As Nintendo, How do you ask this and present options to a child who isn't familiar with people who don't identify? Can I call you 'people'? Everything is offensive these days.

 

[Mael]

Yeah, pretty lame indeed, but i take that over the localization team downright erasing her identity, baby steps i guess.

Pokemon is all about progress, it started with just 1 guy, then we had choice with guy or gal.
Now we even have choice for our skin tone.
I don't get why anyone would complain about having a more gender fluid choice in the future.
If you're not LGBTQ+ just choose male/female and be done with it.
Good thing about it is that it's inconsequential if you don't care about it but it's fantastic if you do.
It's not like it's going to take times from a meeting where they decide Fairy is no longer immune to Dragon or something.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

Come on, this is an english speaking forum, english has this totally fucking awesome and convenient wildcard pronoun "They", you don't have to default to male.

Do you know how handy would be for other languages to have "they" as a wild card too?

They is for plural though. English does not have a singular, neutral pronoun if you want to be grammatically correct.

Merriam-Webster has written about the singular "they" and how it's on track to change but it's still in limbo.

 

[Sai-kun]

I remember when male was your only choice. Now it's two genders. Now you want non genders. As Nintendo, How do you ask this and present options to a child who isn't familiar with people who don't identify? Can I call you 'people'? Everything is offensive these days.

In my experience, children are way more open minded and accepting of different options than people who think that folks asking for more options are 'offended'.

 

[Nepenthe]

No. Unfortunately, today you missed the point.

Your point was that some clothing is impossible for certain people to wear for biological reasons, with biological reasons presumably referring to gender differences. I'm telling you that's a hogwash reason.

If I'm wrong, you can explain it to me, or continue acting indignant.

 

[Clint Beastwood]

In my experience, children are way more open minded and accepting of different options than people who think that folks asking for more options are 'offended'.

Children don't give a shit about your gender or race. They are less accepting based on your weight or if you wear glasses

 

[GenericUser]

There are only two genders as far as i'am concerned. You either have a penis = man, or you have a vagina = women.

Two choices is enough for me.

 

[messiaen]

The main problem with that is that in French, male is the default. As in, you have to add something to a male word to turn it female. This means there's no way to logically form neutral words (which should be the default if that grammatical gender came to exist).

Wouldn't getting rid of masculine/feminine nouns alleviate a great deal of this issue, by this I mean treating all of them as if they were one or the other, not having the two coexist? The only issue I see in French is when it comes to homophones which grammatical gender helps distinguish words from one another. But based off of context... I don't think that'd actually be an issue.

Example: la/le pot--la/le peau. I doubt anyone would confuse these two in a normal conversation.

 

[Mael]

That's what I meant, I don't think character limits are a problem anymore. The only problem now is making it sound natural, which is sometimes impossible.

French being incompatible with a neutral gender is a pretty big problem if you're trying to leave the gender choice out of the game entirely.

I get what you're saying.
In that case you don't have a choice, if you want gender neutral it's male and that's it.
Pkmn will always ask for a choice though, because that's what the Japanese version will feature.
And the localization team will have to make do so worst case you have 2 whole scripts.
if it's anything but female it's going to be male anyway, there's no alternative in French.

 

[Fliesen]

I remember when male was your only choice. Now it's two genders. Now you want non genders. As Nintendo, How do you ask this and present options to a child who isn't familiar with people who don't identify? Can I call you 'people'? Everything is offensive these days.

false.

The opposite of "inclusive" isn't offensive.

Nobody's offended. Pokemon is not considered offensive. It's just not as inclusive as some would appreciate if it was.

There are only two genders as far as i'am concerned. You either have a penis = man, or you have a vagina = women.

Two choices is enough for me.

cool. Thankfully, you're not the one who makes the rules.

 

[R0ckman]

If they want to nod to older fans by making Red and Blue older why is there not an option to play as an older character?

 

[PSqueak]

They is for plural though. English does not have a singular, neutral pronoun if you want to be grammatically correct.

"They" as a singular is something of a archaic use that has been getting traction again in recent years for the purpose of non binary usage.

But even if "they" hadn't historically been used as singular before, you gotta remember "You" used to be only for plural way back in the day and "Thou" was used for singular, fast forward a few hundred years and now "You" is commonly accepted as singular, don't see why wouldn't people adapt "They" the same way.

 

[Roni]

Your point was that some clothing is impossible for certain people to wear for biological reasons, with biological reasons presumably referring to gender differences. I'm telling you that's a hogwash reason.

If I'm wrong, you can explain it to me, or continue acting indignant.

No, if you're wrong, I can also simply not care about the fact that you're wrong.

 

[Ekai]

Your point was that some clothing is impossible for certain people to wear for biological reasons, with biological reasons presumably referring to gender differences. I'm telling you that's a hogwash reason.

If I'm wrong, you can explain it to me, or continue acting indignant.

He's not going to. That's already evident. : /

I remember when male was your only choice. Now it's two genders. Now you want non genders. As Nintendo, How do you ask this and present options to a child who isn't familiar with people who don't identify? Can I call you 'people'? Everything is offensive these days.

As others have suggested: By just presenting avatar options. No one proposing these ideas is acting out in offense. That you seem to be offended is an issue to me, tbh.

 

[purseowner]

There are only two genders as far as i'am concerned. You either have a penis = man, or you have a vagina = women.

Two choices is enough for me.

I've seen this so many times in this thread now. Please educate yourself and stop being transphobic.

 

[Bollocks]

... i'd love to see the stats of people calling their Pokemon trainer after themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if it's almost half.



not solved, tip-toed around, really.
If a character creator allowed for 5 skin colors, none of them black, do you believe the issue were 'solved' if it said "what color is YOUR CHARACTER"?

dismissing player self-insertion in a role playing game (that allows you to enter your name) just because we're afraid(?) to give players the option to check 'other' feels like such an overreaction.

no, it's a simple semantic change that alters the meaning of it, you don't create yourself anymore, but a character for the game, which it actually was all along.

the great thing with video games is that no one cares what you do or if you stay true to the truth. you are a boy but said you are a girl in pokemon? fine, you can do that. you are 5"7' but create a 7" basketball player? okay.
you are a cis gendered person and the game asks you if the main character should be a boy or a girl? I can answer that.
you are a cis gendered person and the game asks you if you are a boy or a girl? well fuck.

there are games with no customization options whatsoever and people are fine playing them so the problem is not the missing options but the wrong mindset.

 

[daemonic]

There are only two genders as far as i'am concerned. You either have a penis = man, or you have a vagina = women.

Two choices is enough for me.

I hate to break it to you, but that's not quite how gender works. I take it you haven't read much in this thread.

 

[Mael]

Wouldn't getting rid of masculine/feminine nouns alleviate a great deal of this issue, by this I mean treating all of them as if they were one or the other, not having the two coexist? The only issue I see in French is when it comes to homophones which grammatical gender helps distinguish words from one another. But based off of context... I don't think that'd actually be an issue.

That's the thing though, if you do not specify the gender, it's male.
French has this type of quirks, like if you have a crowd of 100000000000 women and 1 boy you will have to designate the crowd as male as an entity when that wouldn't be the case if the boy wasn't there.

 

[Kinsei]

There are only two genders as far as i'am concerned. You either have a penis = man, or you have a vagina = women.

Two choices is enough for me.

As far as I'm concerned the sea is purple.

That's how ridiculous you sound.

 

[MidnightRain]

Thread is on a train ride to the abyss.

And over a simple question of all things. Smh.

It does seem outdated. I'm sure there's a way to inquire about players without leaving others feeling excluded.

I agree there has to be something that can be done.

So, something like this? These are the options that you get when you first start up LongStory.

 

[optimiss]

I remember when male was your only choice. Now it's two genders. Now you want non genders. As Nintendo, How do you ask this and present options to a child who isn't familiar with people who don't identify? Can I call you 'people'? Everything is offensive these days.

Yes, you are right, civilization evolves to be more tolerant. It has been happening since the dawn of humans. You just happen to live through the gender revolution. Why is it so hard for you to understand?

 

[Trace]

There are only two genders as far as i'am concerned. You either have a penis = man, or you have a vagina = women.

Two choices is enough for me.

Those are sexes, not genders. And there's a hell of a lot more than two genders.

I agree there has to be something that can be done.

So, something like this? These are the options that you get when you first start up LongStory.

I've never seen that before, that's actually really good.

 

[Neoleo2143]

Leaving non-neutral gender pronouns out of the translation sounds completely silly. I don't think Pokemon should lead the charge for changing languages to accommodate gender Fluid people. Because I want a good translation. I do however, want that to eventually happen when the language has the gender neutral pronouns that can appropriately appeal to these people.

 

[Ekai]

Jesus. I am not claiming there are 300 genders. I was looking at the logistical hurdles in a unified solution to make everyone happy. What I proposed wasn't what I believed to be the end all solution, it was solely the only thing I could think of without fully understanding the issue. You need to calm down a bit and actually try to have a discussion about intention before you start jumping down peoples throats with what you believe their intentions to be. Please look at my last reply above if you actually care about where my intentions lie.

I'm just explaining that the exaggeration doesn't make sense nor is it realistic.
On top of that, your solution doesn't work either. I appreciate you trying to think about it but your solution would exclude people even more in my view.

 

[PAULINK]

We should just go back to the good old days, where everyone was a dude and we liked it.

 

[Rasamune]

I remember when male was your only choice. Now it's two genders. Now you want non genders. As Nintendo, How do you ask this and present options to a child who isn't familiar with people who don't identify?

One post above you, buddy

 

[Venfayth]

the great thing with video games is that no one cares what you do or if you stay true to the truth. you are a boy but said you are a girl in pokemon? fine, you can do that. you are 5"7' but create a 7" basketball player? okay.
you are a cis gendered person and the game asks you if the main character should be a boy or a girl? I can answer that.
you are a cis gendered person and the game asks you if you are a boy or a girl? well fuck.

there are games with no customization options whatsoever and people are fine playing them so the problem is not the missing options but the wrong mindset.

]

The phrase "are you a boy or girl" is specifically the problem. Not a huge problem, just a minor one. Nobody is offended by it, it could just be more inclusive, because it's asking you the player personally. Even just changing the phrasing would make it better.

 

[GenericUser]

I've seen this so many times in this thread now. Please educate yourself and stop being transphobic.

I'am not transphobic. I have my opinion, others have their opinion, thats cool.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

"They" as a singular is something of a archaic use that has been getting traction again in recent years.

But even if "they" hadn't historically been used as singular before, you gotta remember "You" used to be only for plural way back in the day and "Thou" was used for singular, fast forward a few hundred years and now "You" is commonly accepted as singular, don't see why wouldn't people adapt "They" the same way.

I'm all for language changing to accommodate. As a journalist that follows AP style, you're encouraged to be sensitive about labels and use "they" singularly in gender-identity contexts. Still though, it's not a rule yet going off the couple of dictionaries I've seen (who knows, they may've updated) and to be fair "he" really is easy to fall into using as the default for people on the internet.

 

[Mael]

no, it's a simple semantic change that alters the meaning of it, you don't create yourself anymore, but a character for the game, which it actually was all along.

the great thing with video games is that no one cares what you do or if you stay true to the truth. you are a boy but said you are a girl in pokemon? fine, you can do that. you are 5"7' but create a 7" basketball player? okay.
you are a cis gendered person and the game asks you if the main character should be a boy or a girl? I can answer that.
you are a cis gendered person and the game asks you if you are a boy or a girl? well fuck.

there are games with no customization options whatsoever and people are fine playing them so the problem is not the missing options but the wrong mindset.

Fuck that.
After going thruogh X/Y and going in ORAS, I went from slight customization to no customization at all and the game was worse for it.
The problem isn't the mindset but that the game removed a feature that was there to begin with.
They recognized that and put it back for Sun/Moon.

If it's ok to criticize a game because the story is not what I want, I can criticize it because it doesn't offer the options I want.

 

[Venfayth]

I'am not transphobic. I have my opinion, others have their opinion, thats cool.

Your opinion is at the best uninformed and at the worst hateful and transphobic. I hope you're simply uninformed.

 

[Makki]

We should just go back to the good old days, where everyone was a dude and we liked it.

So less is more because modern? lol. Might as well not do anything and let exotic gendered people search for acknowledgement in something other than the intro to pokemon.

 

[Kinsei]

I'am not transphobic. I have my opinion, others have their opinion, thats cool.

Yes you are.

Your "opinion" is factually wrong.

 

[Dreavus]

I remember when male was your only choice. Now it's two genders. Now you want non genders. As Nintendo, How do you ask this and present options to a child who isn't familiar with people who don't identify? Can I call you 'people'? Everything is offensive these days.

Kids would probably barely read it then choose the one that appeals to them the most.

The thread isn't talking about being offended at the question, the OP just thinks it's a bit outdated. We wouldn't lose anything we currently have if they threw in a couple more options.

There are only two genders as far as i'am concerned. You either have a penis = man, or you have a vagina = women.

Two choices is enough for me.

Come on man at least attempt to have some empathy and/or perspective here.

 

[ViolentP]

I'm just explaining that the exaggeration doesn't make sense nor is it realistic.
On top of that, your solution doesn't work either. I appreciate you trying to think about it but your solution would exclude people even more in my view.

The exaggeration was solely for illustration. I really didn't think my solution was a succesful one because I knew I was coming into this discussion ignorant of the facts. But as a baseline, that was the best I could conjure up. It wasn't long until someone mentioned that a simple "other" option would be a step in the right direction. Boom. A little more insight.

I get this is a touchy subject and I'm trying to respect it. But it's all too common that people come in with a preconceived notion of what someone's intentions are and proceed to lecture them on their stupidity. I would hope that some people looking for equality wouldn't be so intolerant.

As an outsider, some are making it really hard for me to care about this issue.

 

[Ekai]

I'am not transphobic. I have my opinion, others have their opinion, thats cool.

I didn't realize that my existence/scientific views on the matter was an opinion?
I mean, not even considering transgender issue in the matter (tho some who are born intersex are trans), simplifying to man = penis and woman = vagina ignores various XY/XX chromosome combinations. As another poster mentioned sex and gender aren't the same thing either.

I would implore you to educate yourself on this subject.

 

[daemonic]

I'am not transphobic. I have my opinion, others have their opinion, thats cool.

You're entitled to think that, but your opinion is the very definition of transphobic. As another poster suggested, you're defining sex rather than gender. They are not one in the same.

 

[Mael]

I'am not transphobic. I have my opinion, others have their opinion, thats cool.

"You guys shouldn't even exist but don't label me as a hater"

 

[LordKasual]

It basically asks your gender and there is only two choices. I fail see to novelty in it. I know that you can pick one or the other but what if you associate with neither or both? I just find it lame that it is asking you if you are a boy or girl in the first place and implying that you are either.

I mean what if someone in real life went up to people and asked that question?

About 95% of the time, you'd probably get raised eyebrows, as i'm sure to most people it's a pretty silly question to be asked. The "boy" is a male, and the "girl" is a female. No matter what you identify as, you're either going to be born with a penis or a vagina. (The other +- 1.7% case i don't think would require Pokemon to change this question.)

As for people who are comfortable with their sex but refuse to conform to one gender...that's a minority complication that's probably so minor to Nintendo that i doubt the consideration even crosses their minds. As for me, i'm just happy enough when games offer the option for a darker skintone that doesn't look like my character was unevenly dipped in some coffee-colored nail polish.


But since this problem essentially comes down to Nintendo separating the visual option from the pronoun and including one extra option to dialogue, i can't see why it wouldn't be possible. Just not probable, because it's nintendo.

 

[dlauv]

In short, yes.

But as a company focused on making money, I don't think it's necessary to turn something like Pokemon into a hot-button political statement at this moment, which it absolutely would. There are probably ways around it, be it a character creator or gender neutral dialogue. I'd suggest for them to wait until things become more normalized outside of the sphere of children's video games before they decide to be more inclusive. As it stands, transgendered individuals face facebook memes of people pointing guns at them for going into the gendered bathroom they identify with.

Besides, I thought transgendered individuals would ideally identify as either a girl or boy anyway. Am I mistaken? Treating them as the "other" would be deconstructing what they are. Or would this topic concern people who don't identify as any gender? Or is it the phrasing? Should it be "Do you identify as a boy or girl?"

 

[SalvaPot]

I an not a boy, I AM A MAN.

The demo didn't even ask you your gender, so it's hard to know how they are going to handle it. I say we wait.

 

[GamerJM]

No skin color options is actually kind of a problem and I am annoyed it gets talked about mockingly.

I had to play as a maybe-black/maybe-tan/maybe-ganguro character in XY because apparently people think more options is giving in their little war to SJWs.

I think it's probably more likely because Nintendo is incredibly insular and don't realize that there's a world outside of Japan.

 

[optimiss]

As for me, i'm just happy enough when games offer the option for a darker skintone that doesn't look like my character was unevenly dipped in some coffee-colored nail polish..

"About 95% of the time, you'd probably get raised eyebrows, as i'm sure to most people it's a pretty silly question to be asked." - LordKasual

 

[lazypants]

Why not just change the question to "which character do you prefer" or something like that. Pokemon doesn't get to decide who you are. If I pick the female character it doesn't mean that I am now female and identify as such in real life. Its just a sprite. People need to understand that when you are playing a video game you are controlling a fake character in a fake world. You don't need to identify with the character because it is not you. Even if you are controlling a sprite that matches everything about you and looks exactly like you, its not you. Thinking that you are the character you play or that it somehow impacts your life if its not the exact same as you is simply childish.

 

[PAULINK]

So less is more because modern? lol. Might as well not do anything and let exotic gendered people search for acknowledgement in something other than the intro to pokemon.

Look, everyone knows the main character is ash. Just make everyone be Ash. Remember pokemon Yellow? That was hella cool. Now imagine if we had to play as misty, that would be hella lame.

 

[Renmyra]

I agree there has to be something that can be done.

So, something like this? These are the options that you get when you first start up LongStory.

Hey, you missed a few.

God knows how many more made up pronouns there might exist. I mean I wouldn't mind "they" as a third option, but there's just so much random shit out there like this.