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[dickgumshoe]

It shouldn't be that hard for TPC to implement a solution.

I'm not directly affected by this, but I can empathize because I feel a little excluded whenever there's only straight dating choices in a game.

It's asking if you want to be the boy character or the girl character, I really don't see an issue. If I play any other Japanese rpg I'm usually just given a character. If they want to put in another option then that's cool but I really don't think they should be obligated.

Obligated? How? By law? Or by people voicing their opinions that binary choice isn't inclusive to all people? I don't get what you mean.

All they've ever asked. Is if you, right now, LOOK like a boy or a girl.

No, that's not what the games do, and that's part of the problem. They ask for a label, and they don't provide any choices a part of the players feel comfortable choosing.

 

[Fliesen]

Should Pokémon ask if you're paraplegic or not? I'm sure lots of people without legs play pokémon.
I see this as kind of the same deal. It's not outdated, it just doesn't cover every single little possibility which is perfectly reasonable.

Again: Pokemon is already asking you for your gender. It's not (yet?) asking you for the state of movement in your legs.

When Pokemon X allowed people to pick a skin color, many people would have loved some additional shades that went beyond 'brown-ish'

And look at that, Sun/Moon added an even darker skin color.

 

[Phu]

I can't really see any reason why Pokemon can't just let you customize your character and decider your gender as you're creating your trainer. If pokemon can be male, female, genderless there's no reason why the trainer can't be. If Landoras of all Pokemon can be genderless, why can't I? And it's a fact that more people like me than that asshole.

Ahhhh, why use Landorus as your example? lol

It's a 100% male-only Pokemon. It can't be genderless.

 

[Shredderi]

Are we talking about transgender people or something different? I don't really have any knowledge about people who don't identify as either gender etc.

 

[KojiKnight]

Here's the thing I don't understand

Let's say developers decide, ok, two options isn't enough. So now Elder Scrolls 7 (I can't even remember what number we're on anymore) has more options

What, exactly, does that even look like when you're making your character? If your character doesnt as a base look male or female, what DO they look like? Noting that genitalia are obviously not viewable.

They don't ask for your sexual preference in the character creator. They don't care if you're bi or pan or lesbian or gay or whatever else. They don't care if you're Trans and used to be a guy but are a girl now. They don't care if you don't have the same behavioral patterns as a male or a female or neither.

All they're asking. All they've ever asked. Is if you, right now, LOOK like a boy or a girl. And they're not even going that far. In reality they're just asking what you WANT to look like right now.

That's all pokemon asks too. The only difference is you're stuck with the default template. I can understand the argument for a character creator, but I don't understand how this is in any way a lgbtq issue.

You're completely missing the point... This is locking appearances and clothing behind an arbitrary "Are you a boy or a girl" when it could simply ask something else... such as "Choose a character and an outfit" or "pick your preferred appearance".

 

[Shredderi]

You're completely missing the point... This is locking appearances and clothing behind an arbitrary "Are you a boy or a girl" when it could simply ask something else... such as "Choose a character and an outfit" or "pick your preferred appearance".

From a workload perspective that sounds like a lot more work though. I mean I'd like to have more clothing options in games just for fashion stuff if nothing else but technically it would be alot more work to implement.

 

[dickgumshoe]

From a workload perspective that sounds like a lot more work though. I mean I'd like to have more clothing options in games just for fashion stuff if nothing else but technically it would be alot more work to implement.

Yes, who do gamers think they are to ask developers for features in games that do require additional work?

 

[DedValve]

People stating this is offensive should be immediately banned unless they can actually quote where the op or anyone calmly asking if pokemon could tackle a question slightly different to be more inclusive has been offended. Wheres the offense other than your own?

 

[Shredderi]

Yes, who do gamers think they are to ask developers for features in games that do require additional work?

I didn't and won't say to not ask for them. I'm all for it. I just pointed out a fact and it could be that even if devs wanted to be onboard with it, they might not always have the resources to do so. I'm not saying that you shouldn't ask for them because of that, I just myself am not expecting devs to implement this anytime soon, mostly because of the added work it would bring.

 

[dickgumshoe]

I didn't and won't say to not ask for them. I'm all for it. I just pointed out a fact and it could be that even if devs wanted to be onboard with it, they might not always have the resources to do so. I'm not saying that you shouldn't ask for them because of that, I just myself am not expecting devs to implement this anytime soon, mostly because of the added work it would bring.

I don't think it would even have to be a lot of work. Someone already proposed to change the question from asking for a label to ask for a look representing the player.

 

[zeemumu]

I assumed it was referring to biological sex. They could keep that and make all of the clothes and hairstyles interchangeable, but I think that's as far as nintendo would go. Then again, most people in Pokemon refer to you by your name so for the most part that'd probably cover everything.

 

[Benzychenz]

What's your style?

Remove gendered hairstyles and clothing.

Fixed.

 

[Shredderi]

I don't think it would even have to be a lot of work. Someone already proposed to change the question from asking for a label to ask for a look representing the player.

I'm only speaking about the graphical assets and the creation of them (clothes/hairstyles/animations).

 

[Kssio_Aug]

It should then just not ask anything about gender. "How do you look like?": opens the menu so you can freely customize hair-style, face shape, eyes and skin-color.

 

[Acerac]

People stating this is offensive should be immediately banned unless they can actually quote where the op or anyone calmly asking if pokemon could tackle a question slightly different to be more inclusive has been offended. Wheres the offense other than your own?

Conversely, if they were offended and were just projecting suddenly their complaints make far more sense.

 

[Fou-Lu]

What's your style?



Remove gendered hairstyles and clothing.

Fixed.

It should then just not ask anything about gender. "How do you look like?": opens the menu so you can freely customize hair-style, face shape, eyes and skin-color.

Doesn't fix pronouns which is what a lot of us are trying to say.

 

[Vamphuntr]

Should Pokémon ask if you're paraplegic or not? I'm sure lots of people without legs play pokémon.
I see this as kind of the same deal. It's not outdated, it just doesn't cover every single little possibility which is perfectly reasonable.

I was actually thinking about something along those lines earlier. I do feel the question IS outdated but on the other hand if they update it on that front they would need to add more stuff to be inclusive to everyone. Haven't played Pokémon for years but can you be in a wheelchair in the recent games? Can you have clothing accessories like veils for women? I do feel that it's a really tricky topic to deal with in our modern world.

My opinion is that it always asked you which avatar you wanted to play as and not a personal question about your identity. Considering the boxes seems to have a warning about minimal reading skills required I'm guessing they were simply careless and didn't think it would matter much for much kids.

 

[CrimsonSquall]

So have the "black" people always been indian? Because unless those are somehow dreads, that's not how black hair typically grows which always threw me off

 

[.JayZii]

Doesn't fix pronouns which is what a lot of us are trying to say.

I asked earlier but didn't see it addressed, do pokemon games even use gendered pronouns? I think they only use the name you pick or "you".

 

[PSqueak]

What else should they be? The whole topic only makes sense if they are considered art. I mean noone gets offended by the fact, that there are no "transgender pieces" in chess.

If you want to get technical, only 2 pieces in chess have defined "canon" genders, queen and king, as far as you know all other pieces are agender.

 

[Phu]

Doesn't fix pronouns which is what a lot of us are trying to say.

Pronoun use towards the MC in Pokemon isn't really a thing.

 

[Fliesen]

So have the "black" people always been indian? Because unless those are somehow dreads, that's not how black hair typically grows which always threw me off

don't give them ideas.

But on a serious note ... that's anime hair
No ethnicity grows hair like that. Neither do they have any kind of pronounced noses either, they're highly stylized depictions

 

[Crossing Eden]

This is such an easy thing to implement that I have no idea why so many ITT are against the idea of more inclusive text and color options. Like really? You'd be that bothered?

 

[PSqueak]

This is such an easy thing to implement that I have no idea why so many ITT are against the idea of more inclusive text and color options. Like really? You'd be that bothered?

They're just mad about "mean" people "attacking" their precious videogame.

 

[Steez]

I don't get it. There are only two genders.

 

[Sai-kun]

I don't get it. There are only two genders.

u should read before posting

 

[Septimius]

Is this really an issue? I'm genuinely curious. Is really the question "are you a boy or girl?" archaic? Especially in a game made for kids?

I see a recurring argument is that it's easy to add more options. I could see just changing it to "choose your character", and show two options instead. In that way, it at least doesn't ask a question some people feel it doesn't give an answer to. I don't think a game has to have a minimum amount of options in a character creation. We can't say that they have to have more than two options to pick from, and I see nothing wrong with it being binary the way it is. The question in itself could be rephrased, but I still wonder if it's actually that big of an issue.

My country has no word for gender, and we suffer greatly from it. We have given people a right to change their "sex", cause that the only thing we have a word for, which given a ton of problems when it comes to things like sports or passports, since someone can be cis male, identify as a women - their gender is female, their sex is male - and the only thing we could say in Norway is "their sex is female". I hope my country can incorporate the word "gender" into our language so we can get away from those problems, but I also hope that gender identity is cis by standard, and binary for kids. They should be allowed to change that if they feel their gender isn't the same as their sex, but I hope my kids get to grow up in a world where asking them if they're a boy or a girl is not a problematic question.

 

[PSqueak]

I don't get it. There are only two genders.

If you dont understand the difference between defining your gender identity (which is expression of the self) and claiming to be a different race (which is projection of one's perception of a race other than oneself's), then you are not contributing anything to the thread.

 

[SalvaPot]

"What's your style?"

Dialogue is already gender neutral anyway.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I don't get it. There are only two genders.

Clearly. If only there was a 30 page thread filled with people explaining it for you.

 

[Metroxed]

"What's your style?"

Dialogue is already gender neutral anyway.

Yeah, in English maybe. Romance languages are heavily gendered and simple things such as saying "the trainer" or "the gym leader" or "the Champion" require the player to be addressed as either male or female.

I personally do not see any issues on maintaining the current system and just let everyone choose whatever gender they identify with the most, as they already do.

 

[dr3upmushroom]

I'm so glad this thread was reopened. It's been cathartic catching up and seeing all those greyed out names. Spring cleaning.

As a straight, white male I see nothing wrong with adding options. Basically:

Transgender Community: Hey everyone, so... we exist, and we like playing games. Reckon we could get a few changes in character creation that reflects our existence in this reality we all share?

Close Minded Morons: Fucking SJW's ruining video games everyone's offended you can't do or say anything these days fucking PC culture.

Transgender Community and Sane People:

EDIT: Also holy shit they're still coming! How do they not realise they'll be banned for this shit at this point?

I for one, am glad that you disclosed your white cisness before laying out your opinion.

 

[MUnited83]

Doesn't fix pronouns which is what a lot of us are trying to say.

I haven't played the last couple of Pokemon, but I can't remember a single time in the other ones where there's any dialogue directed at the player that used gendered pronouns. It's always either "you" or they address you by your name.

 

[NightwingRebirth]

What's your style?



Remove gendered hairstyles and clothing.

Fixed.

Yup. Literally this. I don't think there's anything left to be "offended" by after these changes. Maybe a few more skin tones or something, but yeah.

Sun and Moon apparently give you as much money as possible so that you can go buy as many clothes as possible. All the customization required, i.e. hairstyles, should be possible within the first city, IIRC, and I think that should be everything the Pokemon games need to actually be inclusive.

 

[MuchoMalo]

So, I'm just going to flat out say that I don't believe in "other genders" or personalized pronouns or the like, and that I think of transgender people as simply being male or female based on what they identify as rather than considering transgender people to be a completely separate gender (and I think that such a thought is counterproductive. So, with that said, why does there need to be an option in a kids' game to play as an explicitly transgender character rather than people just playing as the one they identify as? I'm not arguing against it other than it making things unnecessarily complicated for both young children and their parents, but I do want to understand exactly why this is important. As for "both or neither", how do you implement something like that without going full Fallout in terms of character creation?

 

[Brhoom]

No. And it never will.

 

[Desperado]

So, I'm just going to flat out say that I don't believe in "other genders" or personalized pronouns or the like, and that I think of transgender people as simply being male or female based on what they identify as rather than considering transgender people to be a completely separate gender (and I think that such a thought is counterproductive. So, with that said, why does there need to be an option in a kids' game to play as an explicitly transgender character rather than people just playing as the one they identify as? I'm not arguing against it other than it making things unnecessarily complicated for both young children and their parents, but I do want to understand exactly why this is important. As for "both or neither", how do you implement something like that without going full Fallout in terms of character creation?

Read the thread.

 

[Astral Dog]

Its a Kids game. 👦👧

 

[NoblesseOblige]

So, I'm just going to flat out say that I don't believe in "other genders" or personalized pronouns or the like, and that I think of transgender people as simply being male or female based on what they identify as rather than considering transgender people to be a completely separate gender (and I think that such a thought is counterproductive. So, with that said, why does there need to be an option in a kids' game to play as an explicitly transgender character rather than people just playing as the one they identify as? I'm not arguing against it other than it making things unnecessarily complicated for both young children and their parents, but I do want to understand exactly why this is important. As for "both or neither", how do you implement something like that without going full Fallout in terms of character creation?

Very good questions! There was a recent thread that you can check out here that may help answer them.

Its a Kids game. ����

Annnnd...? Are you going to finish a thought?

 

[purseowner]

So, I'm just going to flat out say that I don't believe in "other genders" or personalized pronouns or the like, and that I think of transgender people as simply being male or female based on what they identify as rather than considering transgender people to be a completely separate gender (and I think that such a thought is counterproductive. So, with that said, why does there need to be an option in a kids' game to play as an explicitly transgender character rather than people just playing as the one they identify as? I'm not arguing against it other than it making things unnecessarily complicated for both young children and their parents, but I do want to understand exactly why this is important. As for "both or neither", how do you implement something like that without going full Fallout in terms of character creation?

The character creation would barely need to be altered - just add a third option alongside 'boy' and 'girl', then it would be more inclusive.

And saying you don't 'believe' in gender identities outside of the binary of male and female is like saying you don't believe gay people exist - utterly ridiculous.

Its a Kids game. 👦👧

All the more reason to include a gender-neutral option and pronouns.

 

[ShironRedshift]

Its a Kids game. ����

Not sure if serious, but either way, since too many people have expressed sentiments like this in this thread, this type of thing isn't limited to adults whatsoever. The same time most kids are realizing that they're a boy or a girl is the exact same time that others realize that they don't quite fit into either but don't often have the words to express it, especially when their parents don't and so they're stuck realizing something's off without knowing what that something is or why. Having options available for such children is nothing short of a positive. If you're curious about this type of stuff and how it affects children from a young age, here's some quick info on that from a quick Google search. This is all about transgender individuals, since that's where the most information is available, but the same applies and it provides a good template for how to think about this:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/transgender-kids
http://www.hrc.org/resources/transgender-children-and-youth-understanding-the-basics
http://www.parents.com/parenting/my-transgender-child-this-is-how-i-know/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/transge...are-gender-transition-experience-in-new-book/
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/11/a-boys-life/307059/

 

[Ekai]

Not sure if serious, but either way, since too many people have expressed sentiments like this in this thread, this type of thing isn't limited to adults whatsoever. The same time most kids are realizing that they're a boy or a girl is the exact same time that others realize that they don't quite fit into either but don't often have the words to express it, especially when their parents don't and so they're stuck realizing something's off without knowing what that something is or why. Having options available for such children is nothing short of a positive. If you're curious about this type of stuff and how it affects children from a young age, here's some quick info on that from a quick Google search. This is all about transgender individuals, since that's where the most information is available, but the same applies and it provides a good template for how to think about this:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/transgender-kids
http://www.hrc.org/resources/transgender-children-and-youth-understanding-the-basics
http://www.parents.com/parenting/my-transgender-child-this-is-how-i-know/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/transge...are-gender-transition-experience-in-new-book/
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/11/a-boys-life/307059/

I appreciate you posting this stuff. Helps give more perspective beyond my own words. Plus am on phone. As I stated earlier, I can confirm feeling something wrong/different about me since a very very young age. Personally I could form it into words quickly which made me terrified with how people may have reacted.

That fear controlled my life to my great detriment for almost 20 years. And lead to a lot of personal issues with classmates growing up who somehow found out despite how much I hid it.

So, in short, I want a more inclusive world for future generations. No one deserves to fear for themselves for being different. No one deserves hate.

 

[Fliesen]

Not sure if serious, but either way, since too many people have expressed sentiments like this in this thread, this type of thing isn't limited to adults whatsoever. The same time most kids are realizing that they're a boy or a girl is the exact same time that others realize that they don't quite fit into either but don't often have the words to express it, especially when their parents don't and so they're stuck realizing something's off without knowing what that something is or why. Having options available for such children is nothing short of a positive. If you're curious about this type of stuff and how it affects children from a young age, here's some quick info on that from a quick Google search. This is all about transgender individuals, since that's where the most information is available, but the same applies and it provides a good template for how to think about this:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/transgender-kids
http://www.hrc.org/resources/transgender-children-and-youth-understanding-the-basics
http://www.parents.com/parenting/my-transgender-child-this-is-how-i-know/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/transge...are-gender-transition-experience-in-new-book/
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/11/a-boys-life/307059/

great list.

to reiterate, though:
This thread is not really(or not originally) about transgender representation but about genderqueer / non binary gender representation.

There's confusion going on, which is why many people, who don't really mean to derail the thread, do so. "But why can't an MTF transgender woman not just pick 'I am a girl'? isn't that exactly what they identify as?"

Transgender representation / options are very much needed and should be championned, but the thread - per se - (because it revolves around a question that proposes binary gender as opposed to a gender spectrum) is about people who consider themselves to "neither" be (exclusively) a boy or a girl. or both at the same time. or constantly in flux.

 

[QuickSilverD]

What's your style?



Remove gendered hairstyles and clothing.

Fixed.

I thought we wanted to add more options not remove them

 

[Tall4Life]

I thought we wanted to add more options not remove them

I dont want to put words in their mouth, but I think they were talking about removing the restrictions on only being able to have "female" hair/clothing if you're a female in the game and "male" hair/clothing if you're a male in the game

 

[Sami+]

Honestly I don't really care that much one way or another if they change the text. If it's offensive to some then I guess I wouldn't mind seeing it go.

Don't need a gender slider or anything but I guess if others do I'm not gonna shit on that. Customization is fun, I always play as girl characters because I find girls nicer to look at than guys, never really saw that kind of thing as an expression of my identity or anything.

 

[MannyToons]

Initially when I saw this thread, I thought "how is this harmless question offensive???", but the more I've read, the more I understand that having to have a gender assigned to you that doesn't match your preference is reaaaally frustrating. For example, in Pokemon Super Mystery Dungeon, for some reason, your gender is never asked. In the previous games, after the personality test, the last question was always what gender you are, but for some reason it's never asked in Super. So, of course, the game just defaults the player character to a male. At least model-wise. Like, if I play as Pikachu, I'll be given the male Pikachu model with no option to play as the female one.

Your gender is never referenced in the game, but I was always irked because I felt like my personal desire to play as a female character was disregarded. I don't like the idea of "role-playing" my character. If I want my character to be a female, let me choose that. So now I'm imagining the scenario where I don't want to have my character's gender be defined with either choice, but of course, that never seems to be an option. What I'd like them to do going forward with these kinds of games is just give me a 'choose your look' line. I no longer want to see a whole section of customization be closed off because 'lol, boys can't wear that' or 'only boys can wear this'. I personally have a bit of a distaste for overly feminine things, so while I may choose to play as a female character, I'd love to be able to dress a bit more masculine, but those options are always locked to male characters. I hate it. So yeah, I understand where some of the posters here are coming from now. =/

 

[Iva Demilcol]

The character creation would barely need to be altered - just add a third option alongside 'boy' and 'girl', then it would be more inclusive.

And saying you don't 'believe' in gender identities outside of the binary of male and female is like saying you don't believe gay people exist - utterly ridiculous.



All the more reason to include a gender-neutral option and pronouns.

This is one of the reasons why I don't like to even read discussions with this kind of topics on GAF: some people give their opinions and others feel the need to attack them with almost aggressive remarks in an attempt to prove their opinions are right and others are wrong.

Chances are that if you're gay, you still were born a boy or a girl, in any case, both options: gender and sexual determination are two options that can coexist with each other in a game. The poster that you replied to is actually voicing a very reasonable point of view: Transgender people suffer because they were born as a gender they don't identify with. Chances are that if I were born a boy and now I identify myself as a woman and want to play Pokémon, the moment the game asks me if I'm a boy or a girl I can simply say I'm a girl and get over with if I want to just feel as if I, myself, were in the world of Pokémon, I don't need a game to remind me I were born in a body that I don't feel is my own.

Yes, I know that the thread is not exactly about that specific topic, and is rather about opening choices to include other kind of roles that are more recognized nowadays than in the past, I simply don't think that a reasonable point of view should be reduced to absurdity by others.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Its a Kids game. 👦👧

Protip: if your argument can be used by bigots to say that we shouldn't have LGBT characters in Pokemon, you may have made a huge mistake

 

[Fliesen]

Yes, I know that the thread is not exactly about that specific topic, and is rather about opening choices to include other kind of roles that are more recognized nowadays than in the past, I simply don't think that a reasonable point of view should be reduced to absurdity by others.

while i agree with your post, i do believe PurseOwner's remark was meant to point out that this kind of stuff is not about opinion, even less about 'belief'.
So this kind of belief based reasoning should have no room when we are talking about something that posters in this very thread have even said they identify as.

Genderqueer people exist. Fact. So there's no point in basing your argument around the 'belief' that they don't.