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[Surfinn]

I actually liked the first two thirds of the film more because they were much more character focused.

 

[Killer Queen]

It's unrealistic for a group of people from the same place to band together? (Putting aside the fact that Bodhi was sent there from another place, which caused Cassian & K2 to be sent there from another place).

I don't think that's something that would be a legitimate complaint. And the people who would make that complaint could be ignored since it would make it so much stronger.

Luke, Han, Chewie, C3P0, and Obi-Wan all meet on Tatooine in the original. How is that any different?

It makes the film feel better paced when it is not jumping between 4 different places in 15 minutes.

I'm not arguing against your point, just saying this is what people would complain about, realistic or not. See EP7 'This is a shot for shot remake!' complaints as an example.

 

[DeadlyVirus]

I felt the depth of the characters. There is implied histories and connections. I'll agree the 'team' aspect is not fleshed out but they all have common cause that unites them. Cassian and Chirrut might not connect but Cassian and Jyn and Chirrut and Jyn do. In the course of 2 hour movie, that level of narrative shorthand is enough for me.


Bodhi feels guilt over his involvement with the Empire. He is trying to redeem himself. Is that not an arc?

Saw, I'll give you. He's flat but flat character are not a bad thing in and of themselves. Saw is not the focus of the plot merely a driver. He doesn't really need to be more fleshed out.

Honestly, I can't really respond to your questioning of Jyn. If you really don't see her arc...

The Galen and Krennic flashback is great, absolutely but expecting those for every character is just unrealistic. It's a two hour movie - some audience buy-in is not unreasonable. If you didn't buy in then the movie won't work for you. It's not the end of the world.

I did buy in and I thought the filmmakers did a great job of giving me enough little hooks in each scene that I could create internal narratives for each character.

They said in the movie that he fought in clone wars and formed his own rebellion after the war. His rebel group is seen in the movie attacking the Empire Tank.
He also took Jyn under his wing after the intro scene. What else is needed to be known from him?

 

[ClosingADoor]

If I had to put it a better way, going off the Plinkett Review system, can you describe Bodhi's character without using what his occupation is or his appearance?

Someone who regrets his (small) role in helping an evil empire built a superweapon who wants to make up for that by helping with its destruction.

 

[Surfinn]

I'm surprised so many people disliked the planet jumping. Thought it really expanded the universe in a way TFA did not.

Gave the film its own personality too.

 

[BronsonLee]

I can't believe they killed all of them.

Super depressing.

THE WORLD IS COLD, BUNDLE UP

 

[jelly]

Donnie Yen's character was a surprise for me. In a good way. Also had one of the best funny moments.

Bag on the head line?

Loved that.

 

[Back-In-Black]

They said in the movie that he fought in clone wars and formed his own rebellion after the war. His rebel group is seen in the movie attacking the Empire Tank.
He also took Jyn under his wing after the intro scene. What else is needed to be known from him?

Because telling us things about a character is how to properly develop and grow them? Ever heard of "show don't tell?"

 

[sonicmj1]

It's made quite clear from their introduction that Chirrut and Jyn have a connection rooted in the fact that they both have force crystals. That's why he called out to her in the first place, and defended her when she was being arrested. Then they were all taken to Saw together and taken captive. Chirruit and his companion had no choice but to escape with Jyn and Cassian. After they escape they go straight to the next mission destination. They didn't give Chirruit and his friend the chance to leave, they're stuck in each other's company till they can at least get back to Yavin. In the meantime Chirrut begins analyzing Cassian and his motives, and it's clear he gains an appreciation for Jyn. With his homeworkd destroyed at the hands of the empire, and no home to go back to Chirrut decides to join Jyn and Cassian on the final mission.

I didn't see anything far fetched about this character sticking around with the crew. His best friend stuck around because it's pretty clear from early on he doesn't care about the force much, but he defends Jedah with Chirrut because of their friendship. Given he seems like a guy who likes a good fight and his loyalty to Chirrut, is it really that far fetched that he stuck around too?

I could understand why they stuck around. At the very least, they all hate the Empire. That's clearly enough for a lot of Rebels.

It's not particularly satisfying, though. Once he makes the choice to protect them from being taken prisoner, that's pretty much it. They don't have any substantive interactions with the rest of the cast beyond Chirrut giving Jyn a motivation to run onto the platform where her father dies.

That lack of interaction makes everyone poorer. Jyn and Cassian seem to have different feelings about Force mysticism before they talk with Chirrut, but nothing really changes when a blind monk is following them around. Chirrut's buddy was apparently ready to murder the defector pilot himself, but once they're all on the ship then it's like, whatever. So who are they? The flatter they are, the more obviously expendable they become.

 

[Escape Goat]

I could respond in depth but I think you have your mind made up.

Watch the movie again. All the answers to your questions are there. I promise

Lol

 

[Number_6]

Even this STILL falls apart with the characters in this movie. What does Bodhi do in this movie? His in captivity and jail, he gets tentacled by a monster, he flies a ship and he plugs in some cables. That's not the kind of things that define a character.

What does Chirrut do in the movie? He fights some guys while blind and wins and then later slowly walks to a switch he flips then dies in an explosion.

You guys are equating character development with "exposition" for some reason. You don't need that to get a backstory. You just need character defining moments or hints at something that explains their actions.

We don't even know why Cassian is so cold-blooded until he straight up tells the audience "I've done bad things since I was 6 because I had no choice!" which is exactly what you just said you don't want when you said "forced dialogue". The characterization is just lazy I'm sorry.

If I had to put it a better way, going off the Plinkett Review system, can you describe Bodhi's character without using what his occupation is or his appearance?

Do you really have to know why Cassian is cold blooded? Like, I agree he shouldn't have explained it, except that he was connecting with Jyn, so maybe it's okay in that context. Anyway, why would you even wonder? That's my problem. The question doesn't require an explicit answer, in any form. He's an agent for the rebellion, it's a war, so I assumed he'd be accustomed to killing by that point, and I also considered it a nod to Han Solo in a sense, that they didn't balk from letting Cassian "shoot first".

As for Bodhi, he's a defector who seized the opportunity to do the right thing and redeem his past actions. What past actions? Well, it has to do with his occupation, but I think we have enough there for an arc.

 

[ExVicis]

Bodhi feels guilt over his involvement with the Empire. He is trying to redeem himself. Is that not an arc?

Saw, I'll give you. He's flat but flat character are not a bad thing in and of themselves. Saw is not the focus of the plot merely a driver. He doesn't really need to be more fleshed out.

Honestly, I can't really respond to your questioning of Jyn. If you really don't see her arc...

The Galen and Krennic flashback is great, absolutely but expecting those for every character is just unrealistic. It's a two hour movie - some audience buy-in is not unreasonable. If you didn't buy in then the movie won't work for you. It's not the end of the world.

That's not really an arc for Bodhi though, we have no idea what he did for the Empire that made him feel guilty. As far as we're told, all Bodhi did was Pilot Shuttles that contained supplies. He makes no mention of killing people or doing anything evil and there is no reason his job would entail him to ever do something that would make him feel guilt. Unless you consider being a logistics pilot something worthy of guilt. Maybe someone somewhere feels bad about their job being to ferry supplies to people but that's not the norm.


Saw's being flat isn't bad, it's that he's flat in a movie where the first act is all about him. The beginning of the movie is Jyn being told to go with Saw. Cassian is told repeatedly about how there's some important stuff goinng on with Saw. Mon Motha briefs Jyn and Cassian about how much an extremist Saw is. Bodhi the pilot is constatly trying to meet Saw. Everyone is hyping up saw and wants to find him. Then we find him and he's not even a character, just a waypoint to direct our characters somewhere else.


And Jyn...hooo boy...Jyn is a mess. Jyn...has an "arc" I suppose but it's not an arc as so much just an abrupt change of heart that's so fast I remember thinking in the movie it felt like they cut some scenes. Jyn goes from "I hate the Empire, the Rebellion and this whole war so I'm going to abstain" to "I'm going off to fight in a suicide mission that will decide this war" with no moment of transition in-between. That's not so much an character arc as just as I said earlier and abrupt turn of character.

Yes her father died and she has maybe some motivation for that to fight the Empire but it's also motivation to hate the Rebellion since Cassian was there to kill him and the Rebel Strike Force DID kill him. The only moment you even get that she realizes this is that she's mad at Cassian for a few minutes and then it's dropped entirely. Then in the next scene she's with all the Rebellion leaders including the one responsible for her father's death and she is passionately arguing instead that they should listen to her and go fight? She's not going to confront the guy who ordered the hit on her dad? She's going to at least go up to him and say "You at least owe me this mission to Eadu because you killed my father"?

It's just lazy to just abandon this important fact because "oh well the movie has to move along". That's not good storywriting, to say that the movie has to get to the important bits so we should just ignore the plot. If that's the case don't bother with the plot, just make a movie about explosions and hire Michael Bay to direct it. Yes I know the third act is good and is probably the best part of the movie but without the characters really having the proper build-up, it's hollow.

 

[Surfinn]

Are you kidding me.. I'm blind was the funniest moment of the film, lol. Got a long laugh from our theater.

 

[Back-In-Black]

That's not really an arc for Bodhi though, we have no idea what he did for the Empire that made him feel guilty. As far as we're told, all Bodhi did was Pilot Shuttles that contained supplies. He makes no mention of killing people or doing anything evil and there is no reason his job would entail him to ever do something that would make him feel guilt. Unless you consider being a logistics pilot something worthy of guilt. Maybe someone somewhere feels bad about their job being to ferry supplies to people but that's not the norm.


Saw's being flat isn't bad, it's that he's flat in a movie where the first act is all about him. The beginning of the movie is Jyn being told to go with Saw. Cassian is told repeatedly about how there's some important stuff goinng on with Saw. Mon Motha briefs Jyn and Cassian about how much an extremist Saw is. Bodhi the pilot is constatly trying to meet Saw. Everyone is hyping up saw and wants to find him. Then we find him and he's not even a character, just a waypoint to direct our characters somewhere else.


And Jyn...hooo boy...Jyn is a mess. Jyn...has an "arc" I suppose but it's not an arc as so much just an abrupt change of heart that's so fast I remember thinking in the movie it felt like they cut some scenes. Jyn goes from "I hate the Empire, the Rebellion and this whole war so I'm going to abstain" to "I'm going off to fight in a suicide mission that will decide this war" with no moment of transition in-between. That's not so much an character arc as just as I said earlier and abrupt turn of character.

Yes her father died and she has maybe some motivation for that to fight the Empire but it's also motivation to hate the Rebellion since Cassian was there to kill him and the Rebel Strike Force DID kill him. The only moment you even get that she realizes this is that she's mad at Cassian for a few minutes and then it's dropped entirely. Then in the next scene she's with all the Rebellion leaders including the one responsible for her father's death and she is passionately arguing instead that they should listen to her and go fight? She's not going to confront the guy who ordered the hit on her dad? She's going to at least go up to him and say "You at least owe me this mission to Eadu because you killed my father"?

It's just lazy to just abandon this important fact because "oh well the movie has to move along". That's not good storywriting, to say that the movie has to get to the important bits so we should just ignore the plot. If that's the case don't' bother with the plot, just make a movie about explosions and hire Michael Bay to direct it.

I agree with all of this especially Jyn's abrupt character change, still I found her way more compelling that Rey. Fuck, Jyn had a hard life.

 

[Interfectum]

Quick impressions: best SW since Jedi, slow start, fantastic end, it was great to see the Empire and Vader again

 

[OricWindstar]

Yeah, turns out there's an extra 20-or-so minutes of music on this. There's an error on one of the tracks, though "Today of All Days" that cuts off its ending prematurely.

But you combine this release w/ the official soundtrack, you end up with over 90 minutes of score. Still missing the film version of the End Credits, though.

Stoked to listen to this later today. Jyn's Theme has grown on me immensely.

 

[Lmo911]

Can you describe Bodhi's character without using what his occupation is or his appearance?

Bhodi is a coward who didn't like what the empire was doing, but was too afraid to do anything about it. He was inspired by Galen to finally act and deliver his message to Saw to help the rebellion. He's the guy who names the team Rogue One and dies over coming his fears to inform the rebels they are broadcasting the plans to them.

It's not the best character arc ever and having the giant squid scene kept is probably just to give Bhodi an ounce more screen time, but it's there.

 

[watershed]

Bodhi came across as an even less developed version of Finn. He's a deserter but we never find out why and it seems like there were some cut scenes that further expand his character. His whole post-tentacle shock thing seemed to go nowhere. I felt like the movie was setting up a bonding scene between Bodhi and Jyn because he actually knew her father but that never happened.

 

[Number_6]

That's not really an arc for Bodhi though, we have no idea what he did for the Empire that made him feel guilty. As far as we're told, all Bodhi did was Pilot Shuttles that contained supplies. He makes no mention of killing people or doing anything evil and there is no reason his job would entail him to ever do something that would make him feel guilt. Unless you consider being a logistics pilot something worthy of guilt. Maybe someone somewhere feels bad about their job being to ferry supplies to people but that's not the norm.

Saw's being flat isn't bad, it's that he's flat in a movie where the first act is all about him. The beginning of the movie is Jyn being told to go with Saw. Cassian is told repeatedly about how there's some important stuff goinng on with Saw. Mon Motha briefs Jyn and Cassian about how much an extremist Saw is. Bodhi the pilot is constatly trying to meet Saw. Everyone is hyping up saw and wants to find him. Then we find him and he's not even a character, just a waypoint to direct our characters somewhere else.

And Jyn...hooo boy...Jyn is a mess. Jyn...has an "arc" I suppose but it's not an arc as so much just an abrupt change of heart that's so fast I remember thinking in the movie it felt like they cut some scenes. Jyn goes from "I hate the Empire, the Rebellion and this whole war so I'm going to abstain" to "I'm going off to fight in a suicide mission that will decide this war" with no moment of transition in-between. That's not so much an character arc as just as I said earlier and abrupt turn of character.

Yes her father died and she has maybe some motivation for that to fight the Empire but it's also motivation to hate the Rebellion since Cassian was there to kill him and the Rebel Strike Force DID kill him. The only moment you even get that she realizes this is that she's mad at Cassian for a few minutes and then it's dropped entirely. Then in the next scene she's with all the Rebellion leaders including the one responsible for her father's death and she is passionately arguing instead that they should listen to her and go fight? She's not going to confront the guy who ordered the hit on her dad? She's going to at least go up to him and say "You at least owe me this mission to Eadu because you killed my father"?

It's just lazy to just abandon this important fact because "oh well the movie has to move along". That's not good storywriting, to say that the movie has to get to the important bits so we should just ignore the plot. If that's the case don't' bother with the plot, just make a movie about explosions and hire Michael Bay to direct it.

I gotta run, so I'll just address Bodhi: given that he'd actually had contact with Galen Erso, and was operating out of Jehda, I assume he was shipping kyber crystals--thus contributing to the Death Star in his own small way. I know I'd feel bad about that.

So do you want explicit explanations in the movie or not now? I'm confused.

 

[Randdalf]

Yeah, turns out there's an extra 20-or-so minutes of music on this. There's an error on one of the tracks, though "Today of All Days" that cuts off its ending prematurely.

But you combine this release w/ the official soundtrack, you end up with over 90 minutes of score. Still missing the film version of the End Credits, though.

Makes me wonder what happened to the 30 mins of unreleased music John Williams recorded for TFA that JJ Abrams said existed.

 

[Surfinn]

Bodhi came across as an even less developed version of Finn. He's a deserter but we never find out why and it seems like there were some cut scenes that further expand his character. His whole post-tentacle shock thing seemed to go nowhere. I felt like the movie was setting up a bonding scene between Bodhi and Jyn because he actually knew her father but that never happened.

Yeah the torture scene should have been cut imo. Pretty out of place. Though the monster did look kinda cool.

 

[jayhawker]

Yeah the torture scene should have been cut imo. Pretty out of place. Though the monster did look kinda cool.

Ehh, I thought that was important for establishing that crazy rebel oxygen mask dude was indeed crazy.

 

[ExVicis]

Someone who regrets his (small) role in helping an evil empire built a superweapon who wants to make up for that by helping with its destruction.

That's still basically his occupation but fine let's pursue this avenue.

Why does he regret it? What horrible thing did he witness? What was the motivation for that? What drives his character this is something worth dying for?


Han Solo doesn't get a lot of backstory sure but I can describe his character easily. Han Solo is a man who is in search of getting a big payday. He's debt to some people he needs money and he's willing to do anything to get it. Bam. Easy peasy. You have everything you need about his character, what drives him and why. It also barely touches on the fact that his occupation is a Smuggler.

 

[CloudyTuba]

I read Catalyst so when Jyn started naming off the various Death Star related projects before she got to "Stardust," I got all tickled.

To elaborate, the Empire (well, first the Republic) compartmentalized all the research being done for the Death Star under many fake projects across various worlds. Galen Erso worked for Celestial Power, which he was lead to believe earlier on was to provide energy for struggling worlds but was actually to provide power to the Death Star's superlaser. Those other project names were also listed in the book, being completed by other scientists elsewhere to satisfy other needs.

Fun fact: The book describes the project logo for Celestial Power adorned on the side of the research facility being something like this:

It seems their graphic designer didn't get the secrecy memo.

 

[Surfinn]

Ehh, I thought that was important for establishing that crazy rebel oxygen mask dude was indeed crazy.

Maybe not cut but reworked. Seemed pretty rushed/out of place to me.

 

[FeD.nL]

That's still basically his occupation but fine let's pursue this avenue.

Why does he regret it? What horrible thing did he witness? What was the motivation for that? What drives his character this is something worth dying for?

Apart from the fact that he helped them build a superweapon to a degree that was just test fired on his home planet? Think that's enough to drive him.

 

[watershed]

Yeah the torture scene should have been cut imo. Pretty out of place. Though the monster did look kinda cool.

I'm fine with the scene but it just has no consequence or follow through. Bodhi is messed up for a bit and then not. The whole thing goes nowhere. I thought maybe Donny Yen's character would display a touch of the force in clearing Bodhi's mind or something or Jyn would help him snap out of it and they would have a moment together. I don't remember what actually happens in the movie and how he goes back to normal.

 

[ClosingADoor]

That's still basically his occupation but fine let's pursue this avenue.

Why does he regret it? What horrible thing did he witness? What was the motivation for that? What drives his character this is something worth dying for?


Han Solo doesn't get a lot of backstory sure but I can describe his character easily. Han Solo is a man who is in search of getting a big payday. He's debt to some people he needs money and he's willing to do anything to get it. Bam. Easy peasy. You have everything you need about his character, what drives him and why. It also barely touches on the fact that his occupation is a Smuggler.

At this point you want a whole explanation of the dudes life. Why does Han Solo return to save the day. Why does Luke leave Alderaan. Why does Yoda train Luke. Why does Leia lead the rebellion. It's because they want to do the right thing.

Your explanation for Han can easily be made for characters in Rogue One also, as long as you dig hard enough. Your explanation for Han also revolves around his occupation, since he smuggles two people out of Tatooine for that big pay day.

Bodhi just saw half a planet blow up and thousands of people die there. Is that enough motivation? He didn't start out wanting to die for the cause, that came after he saw what the Death Star can do. This is like asking: why did people want to fight the nazi's.

 

[BlastProcessing]

I loved it. Much better than TFA. I think a lot of people just can't stomach Star Wars without Jedi.

For me it wasn't about the lack of Jedi, it was about the quality of the character relationships.

 

[PeskyToaster]

Yeah it definitely jumped around a lot in the beginning. It feels like an attempt to give it that Mission Impossible feel but the scenes didn't last long enough so it felt scattered

 

[Bronx-Man]

I can't believe they killed all of them.

Super depressing.

You should've known since this thing was announced that they're all dead meat.

Hell, I'm kinda surprised we got confirmation that Hera & Chopper make it out of Rebels alive.

 

[ExVicis]

I gotta run, so I'll just address Bodhi: given that he'd actually had contact with Galen Erso, and was operating out of Jehda, I assume he was shipping kyber crystals--thus contributing to the Death Star in his own small way. I know I'd feel bad about that.

So do you want explicit explanations in the movie or not now? I'm confused.

I don't but a character like Bodhi is really weak and hard to sympathize with. His death was probably the weakest of the whole cast for me because of it.

His motivation for dying was...he talked to Galen. He doesn't witness Imperial brutality. He's never seen the Death Star fire at anything. Prior to this he was a Pilot in a shuttle for supplies, not a very exciting job filled with things to regret but who knows maybe he hit someone with his shuttle and the Empire covered it up for him.

He has what I can assume is a comfy job as a pilot in what is the Galaxy's government that is fighting Rebels who, as the movie showed us,are capable of murdering other innocent pilots. Yet he defects to them because...he talked to Galen. It must have been some talk because he leaves his comfy job in what I can assume he probably thought of at least at some point as the right government of the Galaxy to go to Jedha, put himself in danger of being killed by the Empire and then later by the Rebels he encounters because of that talk. Then for his troubles he gets tentacled brain drained by these very same Rebels and not only is he okay, but he's still talking about how he has to do right by Galen and stop the Death Star. All because he just talked to Galen once or twice! That's really really flimsy for a motivation. And considering the climax of his character is plugging in a cable to tell the Rebel Alliance fleet to blow up a shield they were already trying to do...well...

 

[ClosingADoor]

I don't but a character like Bodhi is really weak and hard to sympathize with. His death was probably the weakest of the whole cast for me because of it.

His motivation for dying was...he talked to Galen. He doesn't witness Imperial brutality. He's never seen the Death Star fire at anything. Prior to this he was a Pilot in a shuttle for supplies, not a very exciting job filled with things to regret but who knows maybe he hit someone with his shuttle and the Empire covered it up for him.

He has what I can assume is a comfy job as a pilot in what is the Galaxy's government that is fighting Rebels who, as the movie showed us,are capable of murdering other innocent pilots. Yet he defects to them because...he talked to Galen. It must have been some talk because he leaves his comfy job in what I can assume he probably thought of at least at some point as the right government of the Galaxy to go to Jedha, put himself in danger of being killed by the Empire and then later by the Rebels he encounters because of that talk. Then for his troubles he gets tentacled brain drained by these very same Rebels and not only is he okay, but he's still talking about how he has to do right by Galen and stop the Death Star.

Did we watch the same movie? They blew up Jedha City while he was on the planet.

The original motivation is to help, because he is explained what the Death Star is by Galen. Then he sees what it can do. Then he continues and sacrifices himself. How is this not enough motivation for a character?

 

[mrkgoo]

I want to re-post this at the top of the page here just to get some more responses:

I feel like the scattershot beginning could have been easily fixed by just making it all on Jedha instead of jumping between three other planets.

The market with the informant that Cassian kills? Make it Jedha.

The prison where Jyn is? Make it Jedha.

When she's broken out by Cassian and K2? Well they're already on Jedha so it makes sense for them to free her...and then it can flow straight into the insurgent stuff in the marketplace.

It would have even made sense that Saw was there since he abandoned Jyn earlier in life. No need for her to leave the planet, she could have just been stuck somewhere else. Planets are big (even though they sometimes aren't treated as such in Star Wars).

Then have her meet the Alliance for the first time after that prior to Eadu.

It would have given it a greater sense of place and slowed the film down a bit without changing the core beats of the story. Also would have made a greater impact for having it destroyed if we spent more solid time there. The whole team would have come together there.

I don't know why they didn't do this. Some simple changes that would have made the film even better imo.



All that said I loved the movie. The last 2/3s are as close to perfect as I could hope. That first third just could have been so much stronger.

I disagree. Star Wars can lack some of that scope that makes it a story spanning a galaxy. It's one of the crimes of the prequels. I know lots of planets and locations are introduced, but anything of significance keeps happening on the same planets. It's Lucas' way of making "poetry". Which is fine.

What I LOVE about Rogue One is how it spans, nearly erratically, lots of largely insignificant locations. It gives the story a grander scope. It shows the characters have been and move around. That they have no home.

It widens the Star Wars universe where the prequels tend to make it feel smaller.

It does feel a little scattershot, an while it can easily be "excused" away as "this is not the Star Wars you grew up with", I think it's both refreshing and works. It says to us that you can have other stories in this universe and make just as compelling.

 

[MMarston]

For anyone wanting a clearer gif of Vader wrecking fools

Also, jesus, I just noticed how he quickly pins a guy up on the ceiling then casually slices him open.

 

[DavidDesu]

For all this talk of developing character, apart from Luke absolutely no one else in A New Hope has any character development whatsoever. They just appear and just are. Leia and Han especially. Obi Wan has as much back story explained as Cassian, less than Jyn. I'm not sure why these weird complaints are occurring. Seems like some uber picky way to try and bring the film down. A million and one other films have just as much or as little character development as R1 but no one complains about them like this incessant whine..

 

[Skellig Gra]

For me it wasn't about the lack of Jedi, it was about the quality of the character relationships.

Not sure why that is an issue, the characters that should have good relationships do(K2/Cassian). The rest are just a group of thrown together people fighting for a cause bigger than them like any war. Do Chewie and Finn have a good character relationship in TFA? Let's not be disingenuous here.

 

[Creamium]

Also, jesus, I just noticed how he quickly pins a guy up on the ceiling then casually slices him open.

Even in this gif I had to do a double take. Brutal.

 

[Walter White Walker]

Just got out catching an 8:30 AM showing (which had a pretty full audience). I really enjoyed the movie and it lived up to my expectations. The only flaw I didn't like was Tarkin's face - he looked very much computer animated. Maybe that's because I knew it was going in, but still.

 

[ExVicis]

At this point you want a whole explanation of the dudes life. Why does Han Solo return to save the day.

He's friends with Luke by the end of the movie, which has subtly showed you they've warmed up to each other. By the time Han says to Luke "that's great kid don't get cocky" after they have left the Death Star they're already friends.

Why does Luke leave Alderaan

Luke leaves Tatooine because there's nothing there for him and all his friend have already left. He says this to his Aunt and Uncle

Why does Yoda train Luke.

Because Obi-Wan vouched for him right before. We hear him say it right before Yoda relents and trains him.

Why does Leia lead the rebellion.

I'll give you this, Leia's motivation I guess could be just because she wants to do the right thing.

Your explanation for Han can easily be made for characters in Rogue One also, as long as you dig hard enough. Your explanation for Han also revolves around his occupation, since he smuggles two people out of Tatooine for that big pay day.

It doesn't though since he could make money any number of ways. he could be Gambling or selling Drugs to get that money. He just does Smuggling because he has a ship (which by the way the movie even makes the point of telling us is also pretty shitty(("This is just a hunk of junk!")) so even that sells his character)

Bodhi just saw half a planet blow up and thousands of people die there.

What about prior to that when half the planet is plastered with his face and the Empire is out to get him? Or when he's the captive of guys (who are basically terrorists) in the desert who put a bag on his head and threatened him at gun point

He didn't start out wanting to die for the cause

He was in the desert alone with Terrorists asking to see their leader. If you did this how likely would you expect to live?

 

[mrkgoo]

That's still basically his occupation but fine let's pursue this avenue.

Why does he regret it? What horrible thing did he witness? What was the motivation for that? What drives his character this is something worth dying for?


Han Solo doesn't get a lot of backstory sure but I can describe his character easily. Han Solo is a man who is in search of getting a big payday. He's debt to some people he needs money and he's willing to do anything to get it. Bam. Easy peasy. You have everything you need about his character, what drives him and why. It also barely touches on the fact that his occupation is a Smuggler.

This is a hallmark of Star Wars. That we're dropped in the middle of things. We don't know the motivation of all the characters and we don't need to do long as we get told enough. Star Wars is filled with hundreds of side characters we view for only seconds. I get it Bodhi is one of the more primary side characters, but really he is like a macguffin. He's repeatedly called "the pilot" and not by name. He calls himself as such too.

Do we really need the complete backstory of this character in this movie? I feel it's about Jyn. And to a lesser extent Cassian. And to lesser extents again, Chirrut, Bodhi, and Base.

 

[ClosingADoor]

What about prior to that when half the planet is plastered with his face and the Empire is out to get him? Or when he's the captive of guys (who are basically terrorists) in the desert who put a bag on his head and threatened him at gun point

He was in the desert alone with Terrorists asking to see their leader. If you did this how likely would you expect to live?

The dude got in way over his head. He probably expected to drop of the message and be thanked for it. Instead he gets kidnapped and locked up. He didn't think Saw would be a crazy dude. Galen probably didn't knew that also. He knew Saw as a good guy, so that is why he sent Bodhi to him. He probably expected the rebellion to help hide him or start over somewhere else.

At this point you are basically asking: why do people join rebellions. Because they think it is the right thing to do. Why did people keep fighting in occupied France? Because they didn't want to roll over for an evil empire.

Do we really need all this spelled out in a movie? The motivations as presented in the film make sense. They are not overly explained, but if you want that type of exposition, you need to watch tv shows or read books.

 

[GeekyDad]

I thought it was quite good for what it was. I don't feel like they forced anything, though it almost seemed like they were going to at times. They came close perhaps. No, you don't really come to care much for the characters, but hey, it's a chronicle. As a chronicle, I think they did an incredible job. Plus, it looks so great, and an almost entirely new soundtrack. Didn't beat us over the head with the traditional introduction, etc. It was kind of Black Hawk Down meets Star Wars, but it really is great in its own way. I didn't fall in love while watching it, but I feel like I'm falling in love the more I reflect on it. The humor was spot-on timed and well-written.

Also, that fucking ending, wow. I don't smoke, but I couldv'e gone for a cigarette after -- total satisfaction!

 

[ExVicis]

Bhodi is a coward who didn't like what the empire was doing, but was too afraid to do anything about it. He was inspired by Galen to finally act and deliver his message to Saw to help the rebellion. He's the guy who names the team Rogue One and dies over coming his fears to inform the rebels they are broadcasting the plans to them.

It's not the best character arc ever and having the giant squid scene kept is probably just to give Bhodi an ounce more screen time, but it's there.

I kind of skipped over this but you know I can sort of kind of agree with this. It's a really strong kind of. It's really hard for me to know why but I agree with Bodhi being a coward and he is courageous at the end of the movie. But it's really really stretching it for me to agree with that because the movie doesn't really do a good job of showing Bodhi as a coward but I got that impression somewhere during the movie (although going to the desert alone to talk to Terrorists isn't something a coward would do but eh).

Still it's a very incredibly weak arc because the transition from coward to hero isn't really there and nothing really changed about him as a character besides him deciding he was ready to die to do what Galen said.

 

[mrkgoo]

For anyone wanting a clearer gif of Vader wrecking fools



Also, jesus, I just noticed how he quickly pins a guy up on the ceiling then casually slices him open.

This scene right here has rapidly become one of my favourite scenes of all Star Wars. It's amazing that I feel this way. As much as Rogue One is "not the Star Wars you grew up with", there's a real smart balance with "this is EXACTLY the Star Wars you grew up with". A good amount of stuff to really insert itself and make it part of it.

And the way Vader wrecks things here is so in line with his OT self, it even enhances some of the scenes in the OT where he is a little more reserved. Like you will view scenes where he isn't wrecking things and showing incredible restraint that he is NOT someone to be messed with.

 

[Back-In-Black]

For all this talk of developing character, apart from Luke absolutely no one else in A New Hope has any character development whatsoever. They just appear and just are. Leia and Han especially. Obi Wan has as much back story explained as Cassian, less than Jyn. I'm not sure why these weird complaints are occurring. Seems like some uber picky way to try and bring the film down. A million and one other films have just as much or as little character development as R1 but no one complains about them like this incessant whine..

You are talking NON-SENSE. When people are asking for character development they aren't talking about having these characters entire life story's explained to them, what they do need is some short insight into these characters, interaction with the rest of the cast, and growth. By the end of ANH we know exactly who and what Han Solo is, a carefree Rogue out for a payday. We know how he feels about Luke, he thinks he's a dumb farm hick. We know how he feels about Leia, thinks she stuck up but pretty hot. We know how he feels about Obi-Wan, a crazy old man with a weird religion. We know how he feels about C3P0, dumb droid that needs to shut his yap. The same is true of all the other characters. Han Solo grows from being a "solo" rogue out for himself to caring about the rebellion and the friends he's made along the way. You can't get any clearer archetypes and arcs than you do with ANH.

Now, I'll just quote this user:

I strongly disagree with everyone who says that character arcs are unnecessary or that they are some newfangled modern convention that is only expected by people who have been spoiled by prestige serial television. This stuff has been part and parcel of men on a mission/WW2 action movies since the beginning. When you have a bunch of guys on a squad, each one has their own little story or motivation. One guy wants to kill this specific Nazi, another guy wants to get back home to help his parents on the farm, one guy has a thing for the war correspondent embedded in their unit, but she won't give him the time of day. One of the classic cliches is Eddie from company C, who shows the squad a picture of his best gal back home. Then when Eddie dies, the audience thinks, "Oh no, now he'll never get to meet his best gal again". It's overly telegraphed and has become something of a joke, but characters are supposed to have these little things about them that connect us to their story. This is especially essential in a war movie, where many characters will die and sacrifice themselves.

Even more importantly, the characters on the squad have a network of relationships. We know how Lee Marvin feels about Steve McQueen, how Ernest Borgnine feels about Charles Bronson, how Tom Sizemore feels about Adam Goldberg, etc. One guy on the squad is racist and is constantly badgering the one Jewish soldier. All the rest of the squad backs up the Jewish soldier and it's a bonding moment. Two characters are rivals but they eventually form a begrudging respect. One guy is loyal to the captain to a fault and the other soldiers resent him.

Rogue One has almost zero character relationships. There's no network that connects these people.

How does Bodhi feel about K-2? No idea.
How does K-2 feel about Chirrut? No idea.
How does Baze feel about Cassian? Other than some vague disappointment that Cassian was going to kill Jyn's dad, no idea.
How does Cassian feel about Bodhi? No idea.
How does Jyn feel about Baze? No idea.
How does Baze feel about Chirrut? They are friends and used to be guardians together. That's all we know. Almost literally nothing else.
How does Jyn feel about Chirrut? Other than the fact that Chirrut seems to respect Jyn for an entirely unknown reason, no idea.

It's easy to establish these things. It's not the special arena of prestige TV. Disney has shown that they are capable of this. One of the strengths of the Marvel films is that we get these little character moments where people interact in little ways. That was one of the reasons that the first Avengers was so great. That could have been done here so easily. I'm not asking for complex relationship dramas, just those little moments and small connections. I want to know how Baze feels about Bodhi or K-2. I want them to be connected in some way, even if it's extremely small, even if they only share a joke. There are only six main heroes here. It's a relatively small group. Even The Dirty Dozen, where we have the 12 main soldiers + Lee Marvin, Ernest Borgnine, Robert Ryan, and George Kennedy, manages to give us these character networks without a problem. It's a foundation to any war movie, and Rogue One entirely lacks it.

After all that and what I just typed, how does Jyn feel about Baze? How does Bodhi feel about K2 or Baze or Jyn? Why did Bodhi defect? I don't need a long complicated reason, just something. Why doesn't Machine gun guy not believe in The Force? What caused him to stop believing? What we have with Rogue One are a group of strangers who don't really interact with each other or bond together but decide, for their own personal reasons they don't wish to share, to fight the Empire.

Now, I'll quote myself from earlier:

Despite loving the movie I still can't get over how bad the first act is and the lack of proper character building. The fact that I walked out of the movie and could only name about half of the Rogue One team speaks volumes. For instance, what exactly was Cargo Pilot's arc? I thought it was really dumb that his reasons for defecting happen off-screen before the movie begins, as such his character has no place to go once they find him. What's even more confusing, and likely a product of the reshoots, is the way his character acts in those brief moments before his mind is fucked with. He's super neurotic and flinchy with a bit of snark, however, the next time we see him he's completely emotionless and stays that way for much of the film.

The super odd thing is that he doesn't do anything that relates to his prior occupation. You see when you are building this type of suicide squad you need a small team of experts (demolitions, heavy ordinance/tank, pilot, spy, technical expert, etc.) but the Rogue One team is really haphazard and doesn't use it's characters appropriately. Why didn't cargo pilot do any actual piloting? When they leave Jedha and the planet is crumbling all around them requiring some expert piloting skill why isn't he the one piloting the ship? When they try to fly sneakily into Edou he gives directions since he's been there before and tells Cassian to fly dangerously low, again why isn't he just piloting? And, then at the last act he merely pilots the ship into Sariff base but then spends the rest of the fight on the ground handling communications, why? Why not, I don't know do some piloting shit (maybe he was the guy in the cut TIE fighter)?

Blind guy is a mystic/sage but doesn't really use his mysticism except to flip a switch. Yes, technically Obi-Wan did the same but he was also mentoring Luke in the ways of The Force, coming up with plans like disguising as Imperials, and fought Vader. Donnie Yen doesn't really do much old man sage mentoring, instead he basically gets slotted as DPS to clean up after Machine Gun guy's Tank agro. Cassian's problem is that he does too much, he should just be doing spy shit, basically infiltrating shit and assassinating folks. But, he's also piloting shit, coming up with all the plans, leading shit, and even gets to kill the main baddie. Some of his responsibilities needed to be handed over to Jyn, in the last act it should have been clear she was in charge and doling out all the responsibilities of the crew not relegated to giving speeches and grabbing beta disks.

However, back to the pilot because he's an example of just really untapped potential. There is nothing behind his character besides what you get at face value, which is true of most of the characters. None of them have any real shocking twists. In GotG the twist about the cast is that they are all "losers," who nobody takes seriously. By recognizing this fact they are able to altogether use their unique skills to outwit their enemies and take down the baddie. Thus, what if cargo pilot guy was a coward who lied about his reasons for defecting? What if he was caught smuggling drugs for profit and thus his only hope for survival was defecting with the aid of Arso? And then he could have an arc from coward to hero by the end when he chooses to sign on for the suicide mission? What if blind guy couldn't "feel The Force" he just used his senses to do all that crap? And then, at the end of the movie he feels The Force to dodge the blasts and flip the switch, which would also rekindle Machine Gun guy's faith in The Force. After all, how can he not believe at the start of the movie when he's seen all the stuff Donnie Yen can do?

Any way, those are just some quick ways I thought the characters could have been spiced up because as it stands they fall just short of flat. Essentially, the third act has to build up and resolve arcs for each of these characters, who for the most part, were not expounded on prior.

Do you understand now when people say the characterizations are weak?

 

[Grizzlyjin]

Loved it. Started off a little shaky but things got good once they reached Jedha. I think this might have been the funniest Star Wars movie I've ever seen. Usually the humor in these doesn't really land for me but Rogue One had some moments that genuinely made me laugh. K2, of course was a scene stealer. But little moments like when they put the bag over Donnie Yen's head were very appreciated. The story is so dark that those moments of levity are a much needed palette cleanser.

All the action was filmed clearly, which has become a rarity with big movies these days. I had no trouble understanding what was going on during the huge battles or firefights, and it actually made me feel dread when the Tie fighters started rolling out, or the AT-ATs stormed the beach.

AND THANK GOD ALMIGHTY, finally a 2016 blockbuster that didn't have a shitty third act. The last few seconds were a little much...but not enough to take away from how awesome everything before it is.

If I had to take issue with something, I would say that all the characters are a little thin. You get enough development to buy into what their motivations are but I never really felt like I "knew" any of them that well. Props to them trying to beef up the character development when things did slow down, but this movie is so plot driven (go here, get this, talk to them, do that) that there weren't a plethora of opportunities to really expand on them.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

I'm surprised people had such a big issue with the planet jumping. I didn't have a problem following it at all. Each planet has their own distinct look so it's not like I was ever confused. Sure planets are huge and have different biomes on one planet. But Star Wars movies have always portrayed a planet's biome as being pretty singular and homogenous. Also I think it's important to show the different planETS to show the wide reach of the empire and also of the rebels with their spies and informants. I really don't know what people mean when they say the first half is scattershot. Its very typical of a "gathering the group" type movies.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

You are talking NON-SENSE.

.....

Do you understand now when people say the characterizations are weak?

Whew!

Still don't think the characters are all *that* weak but I love the thought put into the argument. Good shit.

 

[HK-47]

Bodhi came across as an even less developed version of Finn. He's a deserter but we never find out why and it seems like there were some cut scenes that further expand his character. His whole post-tentacle shock thing seemed to go nowhere. I felt like the movie was setting up a bonding scene between Bodhi and Jyn because he actually knew her father but that never happened.

We dont need to know this. Finn's desertion was a genuinely bad part of that movie so I'd rather they not botch it. Plus I dont need to be told why. I've seen what the Empire does enough times for me to not wonder why someone would have a crisis of conscience around them.