I think you're correct, but it doesn't stand out so much as to be a detriment to me. Of course A New Hope does it better. That's why that one movie transformed cinema and a generation of movie-goers.
I enjoyed Rogue One tremendously despite that.
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Rogue One: A Star Wars Story |OT| They rebel - SPOILERS
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I think you're correct, but it doesn't stand out so much as to be a detriment to me. Of course A New Hope does it better. That's why that one movie transformed cinema and a generation of movie-goers.
I enjoyed Rogue One tremendously despite that.
Wolf Dawgz
Member
This movie is about on the same level as the Phantom Menace for me. Except that I remembered the name of the characters in Phantom Menace
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
Just got home from early morning showing.
Soooo gooood!!!
That end Vader part. Damnnnnnn!
Soooo gooood!!!
That end Vader part. Damnnnnnn!
This is kind of what I think of when you say digging for an explanation. A guy who works for Empire defects because someone told him "Hey the Empire is evil so talk to this guy I haven't seen in decades it's cool." and goes to the middle of the desert to the guys who used to be his enemies while in Uniform and he expected to be alive and thanked?
You know what, that right there is more characterization than the movie gave us because it tells us Bodhi is naive, stupid and willing to believe everything anyone tells him regardless of what it is.
Yes, that's what movies are supposed to do because it's a visual story. That's what stories do. If you don't want a story then why are you watching the movie
They don't. Basically the motivations right now are "The Empire is evil" but if that's the case why is the Empire still a thing? If the Empire is so obviously evil why isn't the Rebellion swarming with Bodhis or Finns who just talk to one guy or have a random in battle epiphany and decide to go throw their lives away for the Terrorists they had been enemies with?
There's just too many holes with these characters. If it was one or two it would be fine, but every character has weak motivation, weak character growth, weak back story, weak personality and vague and general goals. That's way too much. If it was one or two of these things for a few characters I could do as you say I should and ignore it. But I can't, it's glaring how weak the cast is and we're required to understand and care about them for their sacrifices and deaths to have meanings. As they are in the movie, the main characters are about a step above the random soldiers that accompanied them to Eadu (I meant Scariff here, whoops sorry) and as a result so are their deaths to me.
And actually I'll take back what I said earlier, if you don't want characters presented in a way where you understand enough about them that's fine. There's actually no reason why someone shouldn't watch a movie and enjoy it even if the characters are flat and have zero depth. There's movies like that being made and I can find enjoy in those movies too. Don't let my arguments make you think I hate this movie because I don't. This a movie I wouldn't mind watching again, maybe even in theater. But I'm not watching it again because I liked the characters and want to spend more time with them. I'd be watching it because it's action set pieces are great and the Third Act is good. It's just not good because of the characters.
Why do we need to know anything about Bodhi other than the fact that he's a cargo pilot for a genocidal Imperial apparatus that is constructing a planet-killing superweapon? The fact that Galen managed to convince him to run with the information about the Death Star already makes him more realistic of a character than Finn in TFA who supposedly is a brain-washed 20 year veteran of the First Order.
Machine gun guy doesn't believe in the force because he watched the Empire steamroll its way across the galaxy, destroying every Jedi and Jedi-centric temple or planet. He's a cynic, unlike his monk friend who still holds to the tenets of what he was taught.
darkistheway
Member
That's exactly what happens!
The movie even shows this!!!
Which is why the scene when he walks towards the switch is so great. He becomes one with the Force in a deeper way than he ever has. And his friend sees and understands.
OricWindstar
Member
Wait, we're suggesting character arcs are unnecessary? What?
ClosingADoor
Member
Yes, someone tells him that the Empire is building a weapon to blow up planets, kill billions and oppress the galaxy forever. That person telling him is the guy actually designing that weapon, so it is believable. Is it really that strange that someone then thinks: let's try and do something about this and help him sent a message?
Disagreed. Plenty of movies don't spell everything out and you can go along with it. Nothing wrong with it.
Why didn't the whole of Europe rise up against the nazi's when they occupied their countries? Fear and oppression. Only a few stood up and joined resistance movements. That is pretty normal.
You see this as weak motivation. But really, then every resistance fighter in the history of mankind has weak motivation for the most part.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
I absolutely hate MGS Twin Snakes but I could only think of the Grey Fox hallway scene when it came to the Vader finale.
Skellig Gra
Member
You and I can't be friends. It's like we are from different planets.
DeadlyVirus
Member
The movie is not about him or his rebel group in case you didn't notice...
That was the problem for me in the beginning and it was that it felt like the Planets didn't get enough room to really leave a lasting impression. After Jyn and Cassian have teamed up though the frequency in which the planets change was fine for me.
Is this a joke? Why did Germans during the prelude to WWII and the rise of Hitler just sit and watch while the fascists took over the government apparatus and used it to conduct genocidal campaigns?
Why did Russians allow Stalin to butcher and murder millions?
Why did the Chinese allow Mao to starve the country and kill the most people in recorded history?
The whole point of the Empire writ large is to convey the overwhelming power of totalitarian governments of that ilk.
Spoilers for the next Rebels season incoming
Apparently we will see
http://i.imgur.com/6RtL5uC.jpg
Apparently we will see
Saw in transition mode from his Clone Wars self to his Rogue One self
http://i.imgur.com/6RtL5uC.jpg
Well the difference between Bodhi and Finn was that Finn was a guy who actually got to see firs hand the Empire(First Order) murdering and killing and Bodhi was just a guy who transported boxes without probably ever seeing combat.
So then you two agree with me then that Bodhi suddenly defecting because of a talk with Galen then was poor and lazy motivation? Because I'm not arguing why people aren't rising up against the Empire. I'm arguing why Bodhi who had no definitive reason to did, which is to say he did so because the script said he was going to.
It's not really about anyone really. It's more about the Hail Mary pass that was getting the Death Star plans.
That shit was epic. Definitely one of the best scenes in the series.
Back-In-Black
Banned
I did too, despite all these problems, but I'd have to be blind to not see these obvious shortcomings. The characters are really thin.
Except it's not though, especially when we see him dodging blaster fire earlier in the film and shooting troopers and fucking TIE fighters while being blind. If the movie wanted to make clear that he was just using the natural senses he had left then it needed to spell that out. This is not something you can subtly imply since The Force is not something that can be seen, it works in mysterious and often subtle wars. Thus, there is no reason for any audience member to question that Donnie Yen is using The Force when he does all of these crazy things.
If he was publicly called out on his bullshit mysticism by his partner at a tense moment of crisis between the team that would have gone leagues in improving his arc and the team dynamic.
Right? Why do we need to know anything about anybody? The Empire is so clearly evil, we don't need personal reasons for anybody to defect from them. In fact, why even establish any of these characters let's just start the movie with the third act and go home, we don't need to know why any of them would sign on to a suicide mission to fight such a clearly evil Empire.
Was ANH about Obi-Wan? Was Empire about Lando or Yoda? No, but we got sufficient time with these characters to understand their motivations and develop sufficient character arcs.
darkistheway
Member
When he first fights the Stormtroopers, the camera cuts between him and the troopers foot in the sand. It is an explicit sign that his abilities are not (entirely anyway) mystical. As the film goes on, his actions take on more mystical depth until his final scene. That's an arc.
His partner is derisive of Chirrut's faith in the Force when they are captives of Saw. Again, an explicit counter to your criticism.
What more can I say?
ghostwritingduck
Member
The people complaining about lack of character development are doing so because they didn't feel the tension of seeing the characters in danger or feel anything when they died. The movie is well made, but failed to hit on an emotional level for some people.
This movie had a harder task because we knew the characters would be successful going in. With no plot surprises, character surprises were all we had. The only real surprises in this movie were cameos that didn't impact the plot.
Vader was cool, but you could have had the same exact movie without him since his actions didn't affect the characters in this movie.
What a beautiful tragic masterpiece. Just the right amount of nostalgia unlike force awakens. In retrospect, TFA railroaded people into liking it with incessant throwbacks and excessive fan service. I would have been totally okay if Rogue one was the first new star wars to come( before TFA).
I'm not looking for heavy character motivation but anything more would have been better and given me way more reason to believe these characters as actual people instead of just plot vehicles to move the story to the next destination.
Bodhi was an Imperial Freight pilot who fucked up until Galen stuck out his neck to save him. Ever since Bodhi's been wanting to repay the favor. That's maybe a two second line with Jyn with Bodhi telling her about her father since he left.
That's it, that's all he needed. It's not award-winning motivation and it's not treading any new ground but it's something. It's the bare-minimum of character motivation and this movie failed to do that. Not only did it fail to do it though, it failed to do it multiple times with other characters besides Bodhi.
And it's not as if adding these things was going to vastly degrade the movie's narrative, if anything it would improve it. I've never heard anyone go, "Wow I sure liked this character, but it's a good thing though they didn't tell us anything else about him though because I would have hated that!"
I'm right with you there, I really like this movie but it has a lot that could have been improved with even the slightest bit of better characterization and writing.
Yeah it's not the best, most of it's inferred form him talking about meeting Galen, etc. He needed a few good moments where they have to drag him into the action because he freezes up, etc.
I'm just saying it's there-ish.
ryutaro's mama
Member
I like you A LOT.
I managed to see Rogue One earlier than expected. The 1st 30 minutes had pacing issues, but once the battle of Jedha started, it improved, and the last 40 minutes are some of the best in the series when it comes to action and such. Also I lost my shit when Vader killed those Rebels, that was so epic.
I'll say that the 1st half of The Force Awakens was better, but the 2nd half of Rogue One was better for me.
Great movie overall despite the pacing issues and it shits on the prequels!
I'll say that the 1st half of The Force Awakens was better, but the 2nd half of Rogue One was better for me.
Great movie overall despite the pacing issues and it shits on the prequels!
It was the right move. It was always going to be a suicide mission, and killing the whole crew just made sense IMO.
Back-In-Black
Banned
Which made no sense given what we just saw of him. How is him feeling more and more of The Force until he reaches Level 5 Force Dodge a character arc? Either he feels The Force or he doesn't. He literally spells it out on Edou about how Cassian reeks of The Force, possibly the Dark Side, which usually happens when someone is about to kill. This implies he's felt such a presence before, in fact many times, since he is so familiar with the feeling. That's not someone who has faith in The Force but doesn't feel it, that's someone well versed in the presence and feelings of The Force.
I agree with this. A lot of you saying we don't need character motivations and that we shouldn't spend so much time on backstory sound like you wanted the whole movie to be the third act. A movie about a battle on the ground and in Space for 90 minutes. Which is fine you can have that, but if this is you you're basically asking for a Michael Bay Transformers movie where there might be characters and a story but they're basically just excuses to have explosions, slo-mo shots and Giant Robot fights. From the discussions on here it sounds like people wanted the main characters to have enough to be sorta recognizable but also be excuses to have explosions, people getting shot and Giant Space Ship fights.
You reminded me, when those parts came in the movie I half expected every person Bodhi told that "I need you to sacrifice you life to flip a switch!" to say "Fuck you I'm not dying for something that stupid". Moreso because everyone by this point knows he's an Imperial Pilot that no one fully trusts and that's never resolved.
BlastProcessing
Member
For me. Star Wars as a series, is very much about relationships. It's about how small but powerful connections between people can have huge, galaxy altering, effects. The Force is a tangible example of this theme. A literal power that comes from interconnection.
Chewie and Finn don't have a strong direct relationship, but Finn and Han do and Rey and Chewie have a little. So he is connected. At the end when Chewie shows up in the Falcon to save Rey and Finn, it has an emotional impact because we see how Chewie's affection for Han extends to Rey and Finn.
The fault that Galen puts into the Death Star is a very good example of this. For me that was the best part of this film. The fact that, at the end of the day, the destruction of the Death Star has its roots in a father's love for his daughter. That's simple and powerful and, for me, 100% what Star Wars is about.
So I want the large events of a Star Wars film to be tethered to relationships and Rouge One makes that difficult. When K2 sacrifices himself for Cassian, that works because we understand the relationship between the two. We've seen them quip, we've seen them argue, we've seen them trust act other. So it all works. I would argue that his death lands the best for this reason.
Compare that to Chirrut's death. He sacrifices himself to flip a switch. He does this because Bodhi tells him it's important. But there is no connection between those two characters at all. Why would Chirrut believe in Bodhi enough to make that sacrifice?
Each moment in the film has an impact, but they all feel isolated from each other. Nothing builds like it could. If you are going to have your rag tag group physically spread out in the final act, they need to have strong enough relationships to cover that distance. If you don't you just get a bunch of isolated, competent, scenes.
It doesn't take much to build these connections. A good example in TFA is when Poe introduces himself to Finn as they are escaping. The whole thing is quick but it serves so many purposes. We establish Poe as a super confident and positive person. We see Finn react to someone treating him like an individual for the first time. And from that we quickly have a bro bond between the characters that has launched a thousand shippers.
Or in A New Hope when Han and Chewie meet Ben and Luke in the cantina. Han's calm braggadocio when he introduces himself and Luke's reaction to it is great. The fact that Han is more interested in talking up his ship than himself tells you so much about him as a character. The seeds for the finale of that film are planted there, in that introduction. The impact of Han returning to endanger himself and the Falcon just in time comes from the arc of his relationship to Luke.
How many people introduce themselves to each other in RO? It definitely happens some but not nearly enough. People just sort of all jump on the same ship together and all go along with it.
I don't understand why people are searching so deep for the motivation or the feelings of characters that have enough meat to them for what the story needed.
Great characterization doesn't make great movie ( TFA ) and weak one doesn't make a bad one ( Rogue One ) but honestly, you can find characterization flaws on every movie by searching serioulsy...
Great characterization doesn't make great movie ( TFA ) and weak one doesn't make a bad one ( Rogue One ) but honestly, you can find characterization flaws on every movie by searching serioulsy...
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Somewhat agree. The beginning needed some streamlining in terms of spatial awareness.
I think they could have been utilized more in the story. Their backstories were interesting.
I'm not searching for them because they aren't really there and great characterization is a necessary part of what makes a great movie great.
Like I said I like this movie but this movie but I don't think it's great. It would be great if the movie had less hollow character though. I might be a fan but I'm not going to let the fun quips and the action-packed third act blind me from the movie's problems.
Their concepts were interesting. The only one who had backstory though was Jyn. Everyone else didn't get a backstory.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
Exactly. There was just enough meat on the bone to get you to the next act. But it didn't bring down the movie for me. Usually something like that would but this just squeaks by. When the evil is this big and so known, I really don't need that much in terms of motivation from these characters. It's like asking what motivation someone has to fight Nazis in a WW2 film.
That's what I liked so much about it
I'm glad they didn't wuss out.
Han and Luke absolutely have character development and dramatically satisfying character arcs. What in the world are you talking about?
So then do you hate Saving Private Ryan because of all the character moments and growth it has or what?
That's really lazy reasoning. Yes, WE KNOW it's the Empire and they're Evil but why the hell does Bodhi know and believe this?
No one remembers Pvt Ryan for the character arcs. They remember the awesome visceral experience of the thing.
Maintenance
Member
Just came back from watching it, it was exactly what I expected: Halo Reach, but good.
First half of the movie was meh, second half was great. I felt Donnie Yen and Jiang Wen's death more than I did Han Solo's, that part hit me really hard.
First half of the movie was meh, second half was great. I felt Donnie Yen and Jiang Wen's death more than I did Han Solo's, that part hit me really hard.
Glass Shark
Banned
First act was a mess, but things definitely improved after the inexplicable mind-reading squid thing.
Vanillalite
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Escape Goat
Member
How old are you, son?
Rawr Its Ry
Member
I was thinking about this too, I remember hearing Black Saber and a couple other things too. But I thought to myself, we didn't really see any "secret" Imperial projects besides the DS2? And if they were for ep 8 that's what like 15+ years after that and the empire is done by then.
Freewheelin'
Member
Eh, justifiable enough. Showed the dirty tactics Saw resorted to. I hated Whittaker's performance, but I got this part.
What? What? What?
What?
Are you fucking with me? Please tell me you're joking. This is sarcasm right?
Because as memorable as the Omaha beach scene there are so many other parts that stick out first. The German soldier being forced to dig his grave while crying. Upham in the corner being a Coward while his friend is slowly stabbed to death. Tom Hanks whispering "Earn it".
How in the fucking hell does someone watch this movie and think "Oh fuck this shit is boring, I don't want to watch this, fast-forward."
Glass Shark
Banned
I enjoyed Rogue One... but you should watch more movies.
Killer Queen
Banned
You know I've been thinking. Maybe this does connect to episode 8.
Because Jedha is a sacred Jedi planet
They didn't destroy the whole planet, just blew the city sky high.
Yes logically that would fuck the whole planet but I could see Luke returning there to train Rey.
Maybe that brief scene with the Knights of Ren was on Jedha and that's where he was training the new Jedi before Kylo Anakin'd them
Because Jedha is a sacred Jedi planet
They didn't destroy the whole planet, just blew the city sky high.
Yes logically that would fuck the whole planet but I could see Luke returning there to train Rey.
Maybe that brief scene with the Knights of Ren was on Jedha and that's where he was training the new Jedi before Kylo Anakin'd them
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