Freewheelin'
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ANH opened with Darth Vader interrogating Princess Leia Organa who sent C3PO and R2D2 to Tatooine.
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Rogue One: A Star Wars Story |OT| They rebel - SPOILERS
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ANH opened with Darth Vader interrogating Princess Leia Organa who sent C3PO and R2D2 to Tatooine.
It's worth considering that:
A) The Jedi had been effectively extinct for a generation, so it's not like what they dressed like would be that ingrained in people's memory.
B) The Jedi's number is also frequently established as being really thin by the time of the prequels, so while they were prominent figures, it's not like there were a lot of them roaming the worlds to begin with.
C) Tatooine is on the fringe of civilization. Most of the people there probably either didn't know much about the Jedi or didn't care that they were supposed to be gone.
D) The party GTFO Tatooine almost immediately after Obi Wan whipped out his lightsaber in public, so it's not like we would have been in the position of seeing whether or not Obi Wan whipping his lightsaber out in public caused a public freakout.
Yeah, it's silly on the surface that Obi Wan just dresses like a Jedi the whole time in retrospect, but there's enough in universe explanations to where it's not really worth getting caught up over it.
On a related note, as bad as the prequels were, it's always worth remembering that RotJ did this
Sanctuary
Member
Probably because he'd just met his daughter and that he'd lied to her about what he was going to do. I never got the impression he enjoyed doing the Rebellion's dirty work anyway.
The theater that I saw this in had the volume unusually low for some reason, and the first few times they mentioned Cassian, I honestly couldn't hear anything other than "Casio".
Inferno313
Banned
Genuine question: where are people getting the Baze/Chirrut being gay thing from? Seeing a lot of that online, though not necessarily on GAF. Is there genuine evidence that supports this viewpoint, or are we all acting under the antiquated thought process that two men can only be that close with each other if they're gay?
Yeah, I was expecting some hit squad who could aim and stuff.
Those "reasons" were obviously the adopted daughter he abandoned (because he was afraid for his own life) returning and seeing a video of her father who entrusted him with her. He went from jittery and afraid to die, to accepting he has played his part.
Yeah that's really not true either though. Everyone of them at least had a reason for their change. You could say they changed too quickly, which may be true, but it's a movie eh. Ain't nobody got time for years of introspective waffling.
See now this is an opinion I can agree on, because it's not predicated on trying to claim something that's not true. The character arcs were there, but maybe they went too quickly or didn't resound with you, fair enough.
Sanctuary
Member
What's so hard to remember about Joel and Ellie?
You don't need "years of introspective waffling", but you need more than "does this bother you, and does it change your entire world view y/n?".
He was amazing in every scene. Pity there wasn't more but didn't seem like it fitted to show anything more than what we got for the story.
Back-In-Black
Banned
in a public setting on a desert with obvious imperial presence should be setting off all kinds of sirens.
Listen, I can't explain the robes, no one can really. Lucas fucked up with the prequels but clearly we have to imagine that those robes don't stand out much to regular garb, especially on Tatooine. Otherwise, Obi-Wan should have been discovered decades ago when he first arrived. It's not like he was holed up the entire time on Tatooine, he clearly went out, even Luke knew who he was. And, no one at the cantina was startled at such clearly Jedi garb and weapons being worn and used. We have to believe that his "disguise" worked on Tatooine while he lived there.
Like all that would have been great if they'd established he was her adopted father better and shown some of her childhood with him. I don't get the feeling though that he stayed to die because he felt he'd played his part, more likely he realised the power of the Empire was even beyond him and that he might as well accept defeat. We could both be right though as we've not got much to work with.
Something else that is a bit of a disappointment because with this film being pg-13, I kinda hope they finally can depict some of the darker sides of the empire on screen.
It's always just talks about 'oppression' and the empire is evil, but you just don't see it on screen much (outside of the occasional death star shenanigans).
Gimme some public executions on the street from storm troopers, or at least some 'police brutality'.
For the most part the storm troopers just seem to be respectful fellows searching for folks or what not. It's always the rebels that attack first!
It's always just talks about 'oppression' and the empire is evil, but you just don't see it on screen much (outside of the occasional death star shenanigans).
Gimme some public executions on the street from storm troopers, or at least some 'police brutality'.
For the most part the storm troopers just seem to be respectful fellows searching for folks or what not. It's always the rebels that attack first!
The Lamonster
Member
Saw this last night. It was a slow burn, and too long overall, but I really enjoyed it.
I was surprised it wasn't a typical popcorn flick, more like a war movie. I loved the multicultural cast and the dad/daughter stuff. Vader was great but CGI Tarkin and Leia were goofy as hell.
I was surprised it wasn't a typical popcorn flick, more like a war movie. I loved the multicultural cast and the dad/daughter stuff. Vader was great but CGI Tarkin and Leia were goofy as hell.
Sanctuary
Member
The Empire Strikes Back would have most likely been rated PG-13 had that rating system existed when it was released.
edit: to clarify, this film would have been borderline R by comparison. All it would have needed was to show just a bit more blood, but that wouldn't have actually enhanced the story in any way, it just would have been more graphic.
The shots of Krennic, among other things in the April trailer (that were edited out of the actual release...) made this film look like it would have been darker than it actually was. By quite a lot.
https://vimeo.com/196155136
Probably because he'd just met his daughter and that he'd lied to her about what he was going to do. I never got the impression he enjoyed doing the Rebellion's dirty work anyway.
It didn't even make sense to shoot him because by that time Cassian knew the Death Star was fully operational anyway. Shooting him would just be retribution or because the Rebel command who didn't have his operational knowledge said so. Both are kind of weak arguments if a girl who saved your life before was just about to meet her dad. I was rolling my eyes that he was still aiming his gun, instead of not shooting. That's an example of character change happening too slowly.
Not comparing them in quality at all. But mischaracterize as you wish.
I think Jyn and Cassian were decent. I understood generally where they were going and why they changed. Jyn went from believing in nothing and feeling abandoned by her father figures to understanding them to finally becoming willing to die for the cause like they did. Cassian changes from a dirty spy who's lost himself in the rebellion to believing in its purpose.
I found Krennic interesting because he wasn't a badass but a bureaucrat who basically realizes he's just a cog and loses everything thanks to the Ersos.
I don't think anybody else was really compelling, but I'm not expecting more than a handful of characters to be that way that in a two hour film. Lots of "men on a mission" movies have characters who are window dressing.
dragonyeuw
Member
It's worth considering that:
A) The Jedi had been effectively extinct for a generation, so it's not like what they dressed like would be that ingrained in people's memory.
B) The Jedi's number is also frequently established as being really thin by the time of the prequels, so while they were prominent figures, it's not like there were a lot of them roaming the worlds to begin with.
C) Tatooine is on the fringe of civilization. Most of the people there probably either didn't know much about the Jedi or didn't care that they were supposed to be gone.
D) The party GTFO Tatooine almost immediately after Obi Wan whipped out his lightsaber in public, so it's not like we would have been in the position of seeing whether or not Obi Wan whipping his lightsaber out in public caused a public freakout.
Yeah, it's silly on the surface that Obi Wan just dresses like a Jedi the whole time in retrospect, but there's enough in universe explanations to where it's not really worth getting caught up over it.
On a related note, as bad as the prequels were, it's always worth remembering that RotJ did this
A) 20 years have passed between ROTS and ANH. I find it unlikely that Jedi culture has been forgotten to a degree that their traditional attire would be forgotten. That's like arguing that no-one today remembers what Nazis from WW-era Germany look like.
B) Seemed to me that in the PT, everyone who came across a Jedi had no problem knowing what one is, including junk dealers like Watto who live on the fringe of civilization as you describe. Anakin was immediately identified as a Jedi ' Hey hey, A Jedi huh? Whadda ya know' *brofist*
C) Heavy speculation. Nothing in the OT suggests to what level the Jedi culture would be known on Tatooine. There's a reason that Owen Lars didn't want Luke hanging around that crazy old man. It's not a stretch to think that Jedi lore is part of the culture there. There's at least more evidence, if only a little, than saying hardly anyone knows or cares about the Jedi being wiped away. And given the imperial presence, the mere imagery, whether it be clothing, a saber sighting, or someone practicing weird magic, wouldn't be easily dismissed. Tattoine is quite clearly a dog-eat-dog planet, and I'd imagine favor through backstabbing and reporting/spying on people to the empire is a tried and true survival tactic.
D) Which I spoke to expressly, to quote myself from before: "As the story went Obi-wan was leaving( with Luke) anyway, so the situation didn't present itself for word to get around that could lead to the Empire trying to locate him" Post # 7981 if you didn't see it before.
WadiumArcadium
Member
Eh, I guess he was used to just following orders by that point. Plus it created a bit more tension over whether he would or wouldn't shoot him.
DarkJediKnight
Member
I think i agree that the movie needed a moment of quiet reflection between the main characters.
Like when they're in hyperspace and on their way to retrieve the plans there should have been a sense of knowledge that they're going to their death and they just have a "moment".
I'm not a good enough storyteller to know what that is, but Matt Damon's story about his brothers in Saving Private Ryan is one of those moments.
This movie needed it. I don't think it was quite there. Jyn's speech to the rebels isn't it because it's to people we don't care about. It has to have more weight.
Like when they're in hyperspace and on their way to retrieve the plans there should have been a sense of knowledge that they're going to their death and they just have a "moment".
I'm not a good enough storyteller to know what that is, but Matt Damon's story about his brothers in Saving Private Ryan is one of those moments.
This movie needed it. I don't think it was quite there. Jyn's speech to the rebels isn't it because it's to people we don't care about. It has to have more weight.
Yeah could be. But IIRC he says something to the effect of "I'm not going to run anymore". That's a pretty big character change from someone who fed a pilot to the brain slug hours earlier because he was afraid he was going to die.
The film definitely has a very quick pace, and I can imagine it's too quick for a lot of people. I liked all the planet hopping though.
Saw this today, I appreciated the plot, it suffered the 'I know exactly what's going to happen' situation that's unavoidable for prequels, but the nature of the story and the way it all played out was really great, the inclusion of Tarkin and Vader worked really well.
I thought the characterisation was really poor though, I felt like they expected me to have read the book and whatever else they've put out to understand the motivations outside of anyone besides the main character. I really didn't care when they all
, probably H2 came the closest to making me care, didn't ruin the film for me but it did feel like a missed opportunity.
I thought the characterisation was really poor though, I felt like they expected me to have read the book and whatever else they've put out to understand the motivations outside of anyone besides the main character. I really didn't care when they all
died
dragonyeuw
Member
No, but it seems you were trying to earlier. All I'm applying is the logic established once the PT emerged further fleshing out certain things, to which I spoke to earlier that the PT's existence contradicts or brings into question certain things in the OT. Fault the creator for not lining up the stories to coexist without logical inconsistencies, not those who are calling it out when prompted ; )
OriginofHysteria
Banned
Idk they were pretty accurate in the movie.
Just think you could pick another film, something within the same league to compare it too and I'd take your point seriously. Like another blockbuster popcorn film.
Back-In-Black
Banned
I don't know it certainly seemed that way to me watching the film, much moreso than the nonsense Finn-Poe shipping. It very much seemed like a low-key gay relationship without actually telling the audience. But, who knows.
We all do but that doesn't mean we can't try to repair the damage, the robes must be explained within the universe's logic or part of the OT break down. The robes aren't even the worse thing, C3P0 and R2-D2 are even worse. Anakin fucking built Creepio and R2 was his best droid bud and yet he doesn't recognize them in the OT. C'mon now. Leia has memories of her mother she never met, Obi-Wan gives Luke the lightsaber Anakin killed tons of children with, "He didn't hold towards your father's ideals, thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved" (Owen barely knew and met Anakin), etc
Or you could stop being so obtuse.
Trigonometrize.
Member
People will try and ship anything that moves, it's just that with straight couples, Hollywood usually does that for us. I personally didn't see anything close to a relationship between the two, but I guess I'll have to watch it again.
And by the way, it's funny that you call that antiquated because I would've said that old shows and movies were better at communicating a playtonic love between two males characters as opposed to newer stuff where they often end up romantically involved.
How am I being obtuse? I've stated my point clearly, the characters are poorly developed, there's too many of them and I couldn't tell you most of their names after watching the film.
dragonyeuw
Member
Oh I could go much deeper if you want to bring up other fallacies. Dress codes are only scratching the surface my friend : ) How about 'oh I haven't gone by Obi-wan since oh before you were born'. At what point in ROTS preceeding Luke's birth was the Ben name established? Maybe that Tattooine sun is baking old Ben's brain cells, memories and timelines are blurred( or too much time spent drinking rum at the local bar).
Inferno313
Banned
See, I felt the opposite. Baze and Chirrut felt like a portrayal of two very close and very affectionate platonic male friends. I didn't get a vibe of sexual tension or attraction out of the performances. With Finn and Poe, it seemed like there were more obvious displays of physical attraction (Poe biting his lip, etc) and flirtation that could support that idea.
The Baze and Chirrut shipping feels a little bit like: "Oh wow, those dudes were really close. They must fuck each other." which feels a little bit like toxic masculinity to me? The notion that straight men aren't allowed to be affectionate or caring towards each other.
Whereas the Finn/Poe ship felt like: "Look at all of these fairly clear signals that these dudes want to fuck each other."
bonesmccoy
Banned
I didn't pick up on any romantic stuff in any of the character relationships. There is love in the story, but it's agape, not eros.
Veritigo_X
Member
So what was up with the "my friend doesn't like you, I don't like you either" guys on Jedha (please don't tell me their names are well known). They just happen to evacuate the city before it's destroyed and then go right to Tatooine to the bar Luke and Obi-Wan happen to go into. Suspicious...
I think everyone would have felt more fleshed out if there had been more emphasis on this being a suicide mission. Some times, window dressing characters also detract which is how I felt about the pilot. He should have died on Jeddha. I kept waiting for the movie to dump him somewhere but he stuck around and I couldn't figure out why from a narrative point of view.
As a counterpoint to both of these, we had a scene set during the prequels where somebody openly went up to Obi Wan when he was dressed in his Jedi clothes and offered to sell him drugs. This is basically the equivalent of somebody walking up to a cop in uniform and offering to sell them meth. It's not much of a stretch or "heavy speculation" that the jedi had already declined enough to where civilians would start forgetting details.
As for something in the OT, we literally have Han and other characters acting as if the force/Jedi/Sith were either hokey or long gone, as well as Luke being completely ignorant of any of that business himself. Twenty years is a long time and people's perception of things even as big as religious movements can completely change in that span of time.
Watto was also a trader from a species of people who specifically developed an immunity some aspects of the force. It's reasonable that he would be familiar with the Jedi when others might not necessarily have due to his own background.
Haloid1177
Banned
Dunno the way Obi describes Mos Eisley it makes sense that if that was where Evazan was performing his experiments he'd flee to there once his place of operations was destroyed.
Back-In-Black
Banned
What?! Lol, there barely saw each other the whole movie. Finn uses Poe to escape and they are separated afterwards until the end when they briefly embrace and Poe lets Finn keep his jacket. That's it. Baze and Chirrut actually seemed to talk affectionately to one another, and seemed like an old married couple.
Fuck, I never thought about that. It makes sense he would go by Ben while hiding on Tatooine but Luke was already born by then and if he used the name prior to his birth then why the fuck would he go under an alias that could be traced back to him? Only explanation is his old brain is forgetting things or he lied to Luke to keep him from knowing the extent of him watching over Luke.
ginger ninja
Banned
I see there's a lot of good scenes that wwerr in the trailers but not in the movie. But thank God they also took out the extreme cheese 'I rebel'. Made me cringe so hard.
Did what?On a related note, as bad as the prequels were, it's always worth remembering that RotJ did this
Veritigo_X
Member
The Force works in mysterious ways. Saves these guys from a Death Star blast only to get chopped up by the only Jedi in the galaxy the next day.
Yup the Jedi robes is definitely something Lucas should have known better. He went for the easy "recognizable as StarWars" like his successors did with TFA and it made no sense whatsoever.
The original concept art for prequel era Jedis looked a lot different.
Here is QuiGon fighting of droidekas.
Obi Wan and early JarJar
Inferno313
Banned
Sanctuary
Member
I'm honestly lost at what the argument is here. Is it that Children of Men was a much better movie than any of Star Wars films (specifically the OT), or is it that it's nowhere near as good? Because quite frankly, I think Children of Men was a much better film overall, but I'd still rather rewatch the OT countless times over it.
Random aside: can you imagine how much better The Force Awakens would have been if it had a space battle of a similar quality that was in Rogue One, and if Kylo Ben came of half as menacing as Vader did in the last ten minutes? One of my biggest gripes with that film (among many) was that Ben just came off as a whiney, emo brat instead of anyone truly powerful or scary, and that Death Star run was like some really bad fan made shit where everything was shot way too close. Maybe it's just his face and hair, but Adam Driver just doesn't do it for me.
Fear the dork side.
dragonyeuw
Member
As a counterpoint to that, who's to say the person offering drugs himself wasn't on drugs and therefore had his judgement clouded? I mean, we can point-counter-point this kind of thing till the dawn of the next millennium. And if the Jedi were the equal of the republic police, then why didn't Obi-wan arrest him? Given the scope of the Jedi duties established in the PT, isn't that part of the job description?
Han is characterized as being a rebel, it would be in the nature of the character to thumb his nose up at something established like the Jedi legend. Considering he's been around the block and seen enough strange shit to not tie it to the force and all that Jedi-hocus pocus. It would actually go against his character in ANH to believe in the Jedi. Tarkin acknowledged the Jedi as being extinct, but why would that statement alone mean that he's forgotten their principles or other info like their dress? What other characters 'dismiss' the Jedi in this manner to conclude they're so forgotten that things like their attire wouldn't be remembered? The guy that Vader choked out, the 'your sad devotion to that ancient religion' dude? Nothing to say he's forgotten what the Jedi looked like either, even if he's mocking them. There's evidence that people know about the Jedi. There's nothing expressly showing people who are ignorant of their one-time existence.
The droid at the beginning of TPM seemed to know that Qui-Gon and Obi-wan were Jedi, 'the ambassadors are Jedi Knights I believe'. Based on what? They hadn't displayed any Jedi signatures (saber, force ability) to that point. So what led the droid to make that conclusion? Their dress, perhaps? Little Ani seemed to know once he saw Qui-gon's 'laser sword'. What life experience would an 8 year old slave have to know about such things?
You see the circle we're forming here, yeah?
No it's not about the quality of the films at all, it's just Star Wars is a movie designed to be sold to fans and kids, through the movie itself and toys and shit. I'm finding it hard to believe any of these characters are going to be appealing to kids in the movie or as toys on a shelf. I don't see Children of Men as a reasonable comparison as the characters names are irrelevant. Something like existing Star Wars films or Marvel films are a good comparison, they really hammer home these characters, their personalities and their names throughout the movies to make sure you know who they are!
Bucket Mouse
Member
I really liked TFA and RO, but I want Episode 8 to be weird. Like really fucking strange. ESB feels like the most Star Warsy film that ever Star Warsed, but people forget how many weird elements that film brought to the table in 1980. A little green puppet commands the screen for large chunks of it. That's to say nothing of the walking tanks, floating cities, creepy Emperor holograms and freezing humans into blocks of carbon.
Of course, all of that is Star Wars now. If Rian Johnson can bring a level of invention beyond "new TIE fighter variant", while retaining the series' sense of mysticism and high adventure, then we will have a great Star Wars film on our hands.
sparky2112
Member
Thank god they casted younger than Pratt. Plus, he's in everything already. Keep out of my Star Wars. Haven't seen it, but isn't he already Han Solo-ish in Guardians of the Galaxy? (all this was predicated on the initial rumors he was in consideration)
dragonyeuw
Member
Even worse, if you're going to change your first name from Obi-wan to Ben, wouldn't you also change the name 'Kenobi'?
Oh gee, there's a Kenobi residing on the same planet that Vader was born. Probably not a coincidence. Send some troops down and tear every piece of that planet apart.'
Signed,
Sheev Palpatine, Emperor Galactic Empire
Implied that Obi Wan's outfit was a normal Jedi thing by having Anakin Skywalker's ghost pop up in them.
Sanctuary
Member
Oh, well I agree with all of that, I just wasn't sure what the issue was with whatever debate you were having with the comparison of the two very different films is all.
Haha, yep. I was actually going to just post Star Lord instead, but found that. He does actually look really fucking good though as Indiana Jones. Too bad that will never be made.
You should watch Guardians BTW. It really is quite good.
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