Compared to Rogue One, I totally agree
Rogue One: A Star Wars Story |OT| They rebel - SPOILERS
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Not just that. It is also weird that you have a whole movie about how difficult it was to obtain the plans and how many sacrifices were made and that you wouldn't have any chance against this super weapon otherwise and then in TFA all it takes is a 2 minute brainstorming meeting at the planning table and an ex-janitor with some "inside" knowledge and e voila: the planet sized hyperspace shooting super weapon is toast.
WadiumArcadium
Member
The Rebellion would have been destroyed if they hadn't stolen the plans. Hardly meaningless.
I mean he did it in the very same movie were he supposedly revealed the "true" Jedi attire
His redeemed father comes back to the light, to being a Jedi...and he goes to the afterlife wearing farmer clothes.
Making those the "Jedi Master" official clothing was dumb, but hey it's iconic now. No way in hell they are changing it.
Lol this is so true.
But it was the prequels fault really. You see people needed to be reminded of how great star wars was. So all the criticism against TFA is invalid
LegendofLex
Member
Absolutely disagree.
Rogue One was the raison d'etre for the rebellion having any shot at success.
The future that led to The Force Awakens would have been hugely different had they failed to secure the Death Star plans.
You can always look to future movies for shit that should've been really obvious in hindsight. The rebels were never really in danger in ANH if they had enough time to plan an attack on the Death Star, because the very next movie shows that roughly the same amount of time would've been sufficient for them to evacuate their base.
Ragnorok64
Member
Jedi robes were depicted for years in all EU the material between RoTJ and the prequels. It was rather set in stone before they did prequel designs.
The Librarian
Banned
and yet it somehow turned out to be the best Star Wars flick!
I know. That made more sense to me as a visual shorthand so people seeing it for the first time could see him next to Obi Wan, dressed like Obi Wan, and go "Oh, that's Luke's dad before he became Vader", and not have to have force ghost Fester Adams standing there.
People can legitimize the choice for the Jedi dress code, and the ideas for it make some sense, but I think I'll always find it dumb. Obi Wan and Yoda really should have brought a change of clothes when they went into hiding.
Ragnorok64
Member
They're weren't nearly as prepared to cut and run from Yavin as they seemingly were to split from Hoth. There's no indication they even had the ground to space ion cannon or a huge shield generator. I don't think they could have evacuated in 30 minutes.
Incredible film, and incredible effects work.
Assuming it was CGI, the scene with the shadow of the Deathstar's dish eclipsing the Star Destroyers as it passed across the sun marks the point where CGI has finally eclipsed model work. The later scene of one ISD "decapitating" another just seals the deal on the front.
Tarkin was breathtaking work, to the point my partner didn't realise it was CGi until I told him that Peter Cushing had died 20 years ago. Leia wasn't as good, but good enough for the quick shot they used.
I do feel like this film could have used an opening text crawl more than any Star Wars film since the original, the lack of an intro makes the first 30 minutes or so feel awkward and jumpy, and that's for someone like me who at least goes in knowing the basic premise of this story and an appreciation of the wider universe the story is set in.
But all of that is left behind by the next couple of hours, which are just incredible. This is right up there with Empire as one of my favourite Star Wars films. I was sceptical of these spin offs but Disney is now batting 1000 in my eyes, so I welcome the next few decades of Star Wars milking with open arms
Assuming it was CGI, the scene with the shadow of the Deathstar's dish eclipsing the Star Destroyers as it passed across the sun marks the point where CGI has finally eclipsed model work. The later scene of one ISD "decapitating" another just seals the deal on the front.
Tarkin was breathtaking work, to the point my partner didn't realise it was CGi until I told him that Peter Cushing had died 20 years ago. Leia wasn't as good, but good enough for the quick shot they used.
I do feel like this film could have used an opening text crawl more than any Star Wars film since the original, the lack of an intro makes the first 30 minutes or so feel awkward and jumpy, and that's for someone like me who at least goes in knowing the basic premise of this story and an appreciation of the wider universe the story is set in.
But all of that is left behind by the next couple of hours, which are just incredible. This is right up there with Empire as one of my favourite Star Wars films. I was sceptical of these spin offs but Disney is now batting 1000 in my eyes, so I welcome the next few decades of Star Wars milking with open arms
This movie works as a stand alone side film because it's mostly all new characters. Disneys next spin off films will be a much greater challenge to pull off. I don't want to see a young Han Solo movie in the slightest. I want something new. The universe is too big to continue to stick on old characters and themes.
WadiumArcadium
Member
Lucasfilm.
therealist
Member
I was thrilled that they killed all of the main characters at the end. Towards the finish of the movie I was disappointed in seeing all of the supporting characters go down while the main heroes will end up surviving somehow, so I was shocked that they elected to kill them too. When has there been a blockbuster movie in which almost all of the characters we meet die? Yet, it was still a happy ending.
This movie was the opposite of TFA. Where TFA played it too safe, Rogue One was risky and it paid off.
The TFA hate 1 year later is real, and justified. Revenge of the Sith is better than The Force Awakens.
This movie was the opposite of TFA. Where TFA played it too safe, Rogue One was risky and it paid off.
The TFA hate 1 year later is real, and justified. Revenge of the Sith is better than The Force Awakens.
LegendofLex
Member
Leia knew the empire was tracking them before they ever reached Yavin IV.
They had much longer than 30 minutes to evacuate - at least enough time to analyze the plans and identify the weakness.
Seriously?
It was very easy to predict that Yavin IV, Tarkin, Leia, Vader, Mon Mothma, and Bail Organa would all get screen time, even though technically none of them needed to for the story to work. And beyond that they also brought back iconic pilot faces and voices from the original film.
Likewise, I think most people predicted that the entire Rogue One crew would die, and that the plot starting with Jyn's father being conscripted into helping build the Death Star meant that he was going to sabotage it by slipping in the fatal design flaw without them noticing. And that Vader would kill a bunch of people at the end.
They even borrowed from fucking Spaceballs with the hand scanner and the depiction of the shield gate, neither of which were a thing in other Star Wars films.
It was nice to see Rogue One do stuff that The Force Awakens kinda ignored (like space battles), but Rogue One was a stupidly safe movie.
The Librarian
Banned
Revenge of the Sith has its only female character sit around, give birth, then die from sadness.
No.
The other option is a badly written female version of Kirito from Sword Art Online.
Both suck.
Rogue One did it the way it's supposed to be done IMHO.
Harry Stewart
Member
Saw it a second time tonight, better on a rewatch. Walking past the poster (http://a.dilcdn.com/bl/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2016/10/rogueone_onesheetA.jpg) after made me notice that it might be the only poster for a 150mil+ budget movie in which all the featured characters die.
WadiumArcadium
Member
The 'hate' is a vocal minority. Rogue One did take more risks but TFA had to be a crowd pleaser to get people back on board and act as an introduction to new fans. I saw people with no interest in SW before get excited about the franchise because of it.
brandonh83
Banned
TFA hate lol
Anyway just saw this again and I'm backpedaling hard.
This was also a story where the protagonists could die. I guess TFA would have been less safe if they killed all the new main characters despite it being the first part of a new trilogy. I don't think killing main characters makes something "risky." The movie wasn't that different from other installments.
The Librarian
Banned
I have no idea who that is. You think Rey is as bad as a character as the way Padme was treated in episode 3? Get out of here with that nonsense.
BronsonLee
Member
JOIN ME, BROTHERRRR
The Librarian
Banned
Uh, you implied it.
Rygar 8 Bit
Jaguar 64-bit
k-2so has been added to my top droid list
hk-47
k-2so
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r2-d2
chopper
bb88
hk-47
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brandonh83
Banned
I will. Cassian said I had to.
brandonh83
Banned
Too safe. I wish they had titties.
Glass Shark
Banned
I really liked that they gave some depth to the Rebellion, invoking all the shady shit they've done. Honestly caught me off guard a little bit.
therealist
Member
I wasn't privy to any Rogue One storylines prior to the release so everything that happened in the movie was unexpected to me. When I saw TFA I immediately thought to myself that I had just watched a rehash of A New Hope. There was so little originality in the plot that I was worried about the future of SW movies, that they were going to be cookie-cutter, conservative blockbusters much like many of the Marvel movies now.
TFA sucks, I would never willingly rewatch it unless I was bored and it came on TV one day. I would re-watch Rogue One and I'm actually considering it right now.
Revenge of the Sith had a bad plot but was a good time to watch. There were so many memorable scenes from that movie (Order 66, Anakin vs. Obi-Wan, seeing Darth Vader being born). Were there any memorable scenes from TFA?
WadiumArcadium
Member
For other films, true. But it's never been done in a SW film before. Making the rebels far less squeaky clean than they appeared in the OT was another interesting choice.
From a women representation perspective, yes, Padme is much much worse. Insulting even.
We can agree to that.
But Rey is a character that everyone loves and that excels at everything because "mysterious past" or "The Force". To me that sucks too. Not as bad but still sucks
The difference is that Rey has 2 movies worth of reveals to get better, Padme is pretty much done.
To me, Jyn was great from start to finnish. A perfect balance of talents and flaws. My only complain is her little speech. She moved from not giving a fuck to hope speeches a bit fast for me
Sanctuary
Member
I'm assuming this is a sarcastic response to the supposed bashing of The Force Awakens? Because despite it being mostly unoriginal, it was still much easier to watch than any of the prequels. Better acting, mostly better dialogue, even if some of it was hokey, and much closer to that authentic Star Wars look and feel that the prequels utterly failed at.
Please stop misquoting famous movie lines.
No way does RO get greenlit without a back to formula TFA. I'll happily take traditional Star Wars films in odd years if they let us have undercut deviations in even years.
Rey is also portrayed by an actress with great charisma and is the clear focus of the film. Rey isn't just a great character because of "mysterious past" or "the Force." She is well written and well performed and the movie centers on her. Nothing about that sucks.
Don't bother. Really isn't worth the home arguing with the idiots who think Rey is a Mary Sue,
LegendofLex
Member
Here's the thing about Star Wars:
The plot is always rehashed. The original movies were direct rehashes of Kurosawa films. The broader plot ideas are rehashes from the oldest forms of storytelling in existence. The hero's journey. The orphaned hero. The sword of light. The mystic force that controls the universe. The trilogy where the first part has the hero leave home, struggle a bit, then face his first victory; the second part has the hero stumble and fall and get in over his head; the third part has the hero attain enlightenment and face his demons.
You shouldn't watch Star Wars (or, indeed, movies at all) for original plots. Plot is the thing that exists to help the events make sense. It doesn't exist to be enjoyed for its own sake.
You should watch Star Wars for character moments, for its treatment of war, for its use of space opera fantasy as a backdrop for themes about good vs. evil.
And TFA did lots of stuff in those departments that ANH didn't. I connected with Rey in a way that I never did with Luke, because they ostensibly made the focus of her journey something different. She doesn't leave home to join the fight against the space Nazis that killed her family and rescue the princess: she leaves home because she wants to do the right thing, even though she's afraid to do it. They're constantly reminding us of how afraid she is to be anywhere but home or to believe in anything but the promise she thought her family made her. It starts with the really tiny gesture of her being willing to take BB-8 in for the night and spirals into her saving the galaxy.
When she finally has her victory moment, she doesn't tap into the Force because her Jedi mentor and ghost buddy is whispering advice in her ear: she taps into the Force purely out of faith.
This shit is deeper than ANH ever tried to be.
brandonh83
Banned
Yeah I just don't think things like this are "unsafe." It feels mostly like some new way to dislike something. There's more to TFA than people let on for example. It hits similar beats but there's more under the surface that people are brushing under the rug.
Sanctuary
Member
She's pretty much the only reason I care about Episode VIII. I like John Boyega, but the way Finn was written in the film just screamed "trying really hard to be funny and hip". Outside of Star Wars, it would have been completely fine, but it just seemed really forced in that. Hell, his character would have fit better in one of the more recent Star Trek films (which were more like Star Wars anyway...).
I'm probably late but after seeing a lot of people complaining about this they forget that Tatooine is a planet located in the outer rim, most of the time it was ignored by the republic and the galatic empire. The people living there probably don't know what a Jedi looked like because they have been considered extinct for 20 years. Obi Wan's robes look very similar to the robes most people use there too and even if he drew his lightsaber, it was inside a ghetto cantina were it appears killing is something normal, he didn't use any force powers so they may as well thought he bought/found the lightsaber. Also, the Empire wasn't on the planet before and they weren't on a Jedi hunt either, they were looking for the droids so they can conclude that is just an old guy killing another guy with a weird sword.2. Again, I find it unlikely that no-one in that bar would see the significance of the Saber, 'just another weapon', especially as the Jedi are treated as legend. I can't see a Saber sighting getting the same level of indifference as someone pulling out a blaster, because I would expect most people in such a setting to be carrying one. How many people on Tattooine would be carrying a Lightsaber except Ben Kenobi at that point? That's just not 'another' weapon that someone would randomly pull out, and I imagine the saber is a 'known' weapon, but not one you'd expect to see unless the wielder is a force user. No-one gave much reaction to it in the actual movie, true, but again that needs to be taken in the context of the story and lore being fleshed out. Yes, alot of people wear robes, not 'those' robes that are directly shown in the PT as being Jedi attire.
Using in-universe logic, someone who looks like this and wielding that...
in a public setting on a desert with obvious imperial presence should be setting off all kinds of sirens.
Like, even if she were one, I wish they'd atleast acknowledge that she is still a fun and compelling character. Even if you think having that much talent may be bad writing, we have plenty of other characters who are just great at shit with weak justification for why they have those abilities. The entire superhero genre is filled with people who are all super strong, super smart, super capable people and there isn't much justification to it than that they were born that way, or worked hard to be that way, or had some plot device fall on them to make them that way. Why is James Bond able to do pull the insane shit he does? Why is the Doctor able to outsmart everyone? How does has Indiana Jones been able to survive constant encounters with ridiculous opposition. Why is Anakin Skywalker so fucking special beyond that "the force chose him".
It's fun to watch awesome people do awesome shit. There is an argument to be made for why Rey isn't a Mary Sue, but I'm just sick of the presumptuous argument that if a character is talented, they must be poorly written. It's bullshit. It's not some writing crutch to make your character a cool, interesting person who is capable of doing insane stuff. Hell, literature might as well be founded on those kinds of characters. For all that people say complain about her abilities, I've yet to actually see anyone articulate a reason why she'd be more compelling without them. Just the abstract presumption that if she were less capable, that'd make her more interesting, somehow.
brickarts295
Member
Those last couple of minutes...
I need a Vader spin off like now, or at the very least his own videogame because HOLY SHIT! Movie went from good to great just from those couple of minutes.
Also loved how perfectly they tied to A New Hope, makes it a bit more simpler for my family to understand.
Tarkin CG was pretty cool, but they should've only shown for a bit like Leia, his CG can become a bit too noticeable after a couple of scenes.
I need a Vader spin off like now, or at the very least his own videogame because HOLY SHIT! Movie went from good to great just from those couple of minutes.
Also loved how perfectly they tied to A New Hope, makes it a bit more simpler for my family to understand.
Tarkin CG was pretty cool, but they should've only shown for a bit like Leia, his CG can become a bit too noticeable after a couple of scenes.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
Lucas should've made it so Anakin was wearing those robes as a ghost because he hails from Tatooine...
Or something.
Or something.
Damn, that is so true about him being a better fit for Star Trek. I thought his character was weirdly out of place with the jokes. His American accent bugged me too. Hope he finds his feet in the next one.
I'm not sure if this has already been posted in this thread, or if it would warrant a new thread, but Gareth Edwards initially had everyone in the film living after the final battle, because he assumed that Disney wouldn't allow him to kill off everyone.
Disney then gave him the go ahead to do what he wanted with the film, so they then redid the entire ending.
Really interesting.
http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/20/14022380/rogue-one-ending-original-different-gareth-edwards
Disney then gave him the go ahead to do what he wanted with the film, so they then redid the entire ending.
Really interesting.
http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/20/14022380/rogue-one-ending-original-different-gareth-edwards
I think a slight difference is other characters fail in a charming way but succeed in the end against the odds whereas she is charming but doesn't quite have the same struggle Indiana Jones and the like have that makes them appealing except at the end of Force Awakens her just hanging on while struggling. I don't really mind her character because she is fun as well but she was a bit one note for most of the film.
I do think it's a little unfair to knock her that much because male heroe crutches is oh, he drinks and gets battered which isn't great in comparison.
Brian_FETO
Banned
In my opinion the "Mary Sue" thing is countered by the fact that she is the foil to a petty brat who isn't as good as her. We've already seen Kylo is determined to convince people he's on par with Darth Vader and throws fits when things don't go his way, and now this girl with no training is just naturally better than him
There's so much they can do with that, I also wouldn't be surprised if at some point we see the roles reversed. Like Snoke is using Kylo to get Rey and Kylo becomes the protagonist or something. I doubt it but who knows
There's so much they can do with that, I also wouldn't be surprised if at some point we see the roles reversed. Like Snoke is using Kylo to get Rey and Kylo becomes the protagonist or something. I doubt it but who knows
Few people are ever really specific about it though, haven't you noticed?
Seriously, why is Indiana Jones fucking up by taking some artifact without noticing the traps, triggering them and alerting the entire village of aztecs, yet still gets away scot free not a mark against him, while Rey fucking up and opening/closing the wrong doors, endangering Finn not?
I feel like the devil is in the details. Explaining why Rey's abilities make her uncompelling is something I rarely see. People claim that some ability or whatever is undeserved, then people move to argue how she does deserve it because of some justification, but rarely is the question asked "Why would it be better if she couldn't" or "What makes her not work when other characters do"
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