Future PhaZe
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prequels should have just begun with jedi anakin and the clone wars having already started--the first two films are basically a complete waste
Rogue One: A Star Wars Story |OT| They rebel - SPOILERS
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prequels should have just begun with jedi anakin and the clone wars having already started--the first two films are basically a complete waste
Thoughts on the film after reflecting for a week:
-the new characters are underdeveloped and boring. first two acts of the film are a struggle to get through because of this.
-I loved all of the Vader stuff
-Aesthetically the movie was very pretty
-Third act was awesome visually and had great action
-Stands heavily on the shoulders of A New Hope: leads very well into it and enhances that story (Tarkin is even more of an evil scumbag, Vader is a scary mother fucker, we get an explanation as to why the Death Star would have such a glaring weakness)
It's a bad film on its own. As a part 1 to A New Hope's part 2, I give it a 7/10. Doesn't compare to the OT or TFA, but it doesn't really have to.
Maybe I'm just so scarred by the prequels that I'm overly positive towards even an "okay" film with Star Wars in the title.
-the new characters are underdeveloped and boring. first two acts of the film are a struggle to get through because of this.
-I loved all of the Vader stuff
-Aesthetically the movie was very pretty
-Third act was awesome visually and had great action
-Stands heavily on the shoulders of A New Hope: leads very well into it and enhances that story (Tarkin is even more of an evil scumbag, Vader is a scary mother fucker, we get an explanation as to why the Death Star would have such a glaring weakness)
It's a bad film on its own. As a part 1 to A New Hope's part 2, I give it a 7/10. Doesn't compare to the OT or TFA, but it doesn't really have to.
Maybe I'm just so scarred by the prequels that I'm overly positive towards even an "okay" film with Star Wars in the title.
BrokenFiction
Member
http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-anthony-daniels-cussed-out-alan-tudyk-over-rogue-one
STAR WARS’ ANTHONY DANIELS CUSSED OUT ALAN TUDYK OVER ROGUE ONE
#dyingandnowdead
STAR WARS’ ANTHONY DANIELS CUSSED OUT ALAN TUDYK OVER ROGUE ONE
#dyingandnowdead
TangoAlphaLima
Member
So I'm still trying to figure out why Bail Organa insists that they need to get Obi-Wan from Tatooine. He obviously knows Luke is there as well, is that really why he sends Leia there? For Obi-Wan, but really for Luke? Maybe Bail knows Luke is the only one who can stand up to Vader? Or maybe Bail wants Obi-Wan to train Leia as well?
I mean, I realize I'm trying to rationalize this retconned explanation of pre-ANH events, but I'd like it to make sense. And I'm hard pressed to figure out why Leia should go get Obi-Wan when the most important task is simply getting those Death Star plans back in Rebel hands so they can analyze them and figure out how to destroy it.
I mean, I realize I'm trying to rationalize this retconned explanation of pre-ANH events, but I'd like it to make sense. And I'm hard pressed to figure out why Leia should go get Obi-Wan when the most important task is simply getting those Death Star plans back in Rebel hands so they can analyze them and figure out how to destroy it.
Highly doubt Bail gives two shits about Luke. He's clearly seeking Obi Wan and Obi Wan only, since he remembers him as a powerful Jedi and a smart leader.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
"you shit."
"Fuck you."
Who knew a man as loquacious as Anthony Daniels could be so perfectly succinct.
You're way overthinking it. They get Obi-Wan for the same reason they always wanted to get Obi-Wan. Because Obi-Wan is a Jedi.
Almost nothing about Star Wars is fundamentally changed by this movie. Leia was always lying to Vader and stonewalling him (and gaslighting him), and Vader has always disbelieved her. Leia was always on a mission to pick up Kenobi because her dad asked her to. That mission was undertaken because Obi-Wan was a great general in the Clone Wars and Bail wants one of those around for the battle against the Empire.
Nothing really changes.
"Fuck you."
Who knew a man as loquacious as Anthony Daniels could be so perfectly succinct.
You're way overthinking it. They get Obi-Wan for the same reason they always wanted to get Obi-Wan. Because Obi-Wan is a Jedi.
Almost nothing about Star Wars is fundamentally changed by this movie. Leia was always lying to Vader and stonewalling him (and gaslighting him), and Vader has always disbelieved her. Leia was always on a mission to pick up Kenobi because her dad asked her to. That mission was undertaken because Obi-Wan was a great general in the Clone Wars and Bail wants one of those around for the battle against the Empire.
Nothing really changes.
Well...Palpatine had the separatists form and create an army to start a war, to give himself as chancellor the opportunity to unleash the clone army to then give himself an advantage within the government. The purpose of that is for...
Darth Maul is a Sith, and apprentice of Sidious. Their goal is to enact revenge on the Jedi and exterminate them, and be the power force in the galaxy. With Maul gone, what does that mean for Sidious? With Qui-Gon gone, what does that mean for Anakin and Obi Wan? The council didn't want to train Anakin, so Qui-Gon took him in. Pretty much the start of the downfall of Anakin right then and there.
Count Dooku is the current apprentice of Sidious, and there can only be two...Dooku knows Anakin is something that Sidious wants, that fight was really to determine who the apprentice is.
I personally love the prequels, like BvS, they leave the exposition out to allow the viewer time after the film to piece the plot together and perhaps have multiple viewings for this. It's more than just an overarching plot, but motivations. But that's a bigger topic for cinema as entertainment - give it all to the viewer right there? Or make them think and sit on it for a bit? When I hear people complain about BvS plot points, it's usually tied to not thinking it out based on visual imagery - but to be fair, unless a movie's genre is "Exposition-less", how is anyone expected to know this.
Dreams-Visions
Member
TangoAlphaLima
Member
But why does Leia need to go get the Jedi? Especially since it seems like she's just making a detour while carrying the only copy of the super important Death Star plans?
If Bail wants Obi-Wan so bad, why not go himself to pick Obi-Wan up? Why not send a courier to do it? Why send Leia at this particular moment?
It would have made more sense if Bail had told Leia, "Hey, look, if you're in big trouble (i.e. being chased by Darth Vader), get your ass over to Tatooine, I know this Jedi dude hiding there named Obi-Wan Kenobi, he'll know what to do, he can help you out." But instead, we get Bail simply musing about how Obi-Wan could be helpful, then Leia apparently deviates from her main mission of bringing the Death Star plans back to the Rebels to go retrieve him. The set up is just illogical.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Because he trusts her.
There is a scene that is specifically about this in the movie.
Why didn't you ask any of these questions in the last 40 years the movie's been out? Because nothing's changed in the interim. It's the same decision-making process. It's just now you got to see it happen.
Get the plans. Get the Jedi. Get back to Alderaan. Was always the plan. Never not been the plan.
TangoAlphaLima
Member
Nope. We had no idea exactly what happened pre-ANH other than the Rebels stole the Death Star plans from the Empire, and that Leia was carrying them on the Tantive IV. That's it.
Rogue One changes everything about what we knew, and it doesn't make much sense at all. They tried to shoehorn the beginning of ANH to mesh with the ending of Rogue One, and it just ends up kinda preposterous on many fronts.
I'm surprised so many people have issues with the way R1 expanded the general storyline. Thought it tied into and ANH damn near perfectly and gave us some cool backstory and lore for the SW universe. I want to know more about that statue in Jedha and the general history of the planet.
People have an issue with Leia's dialogue after R1? What was she gunna do just be like "ya got me"? She was always going to try to get out if that confrontation even if it seemed meaningless to try.
I just watched the beginning of ANH and was surprised to see that it actually retroactively makes the film a little better especially when watched back to back.
People have an issue with Leia's dialogue after R1? What was she gunna do just be like "ya got me"? She was always going to try to get out if that confrontation even if it seemed meaningless to try.
I just watched the beginning of ANH and was surprised to see that it actually retroactively makes the film a little better especially when watched back to back.
Yes, Palpatine working both sides was good, but I think it would have been great if he made the public so terrorized by attacks by the Separatists that they demand he expand the military. And making people less trusting in the Jedi, and the Force to protect them. IMO what's in the movie is a lot less interesting.
Yes, of course. This doesn't make Maul any more interesting. He has nothing whatsoever to his character besides being Sidious's apprentice and having a double bladed lightsaber. If Qui-Gon hadn't died he would have trained Anakin.
And I think they missed a lot of good stuff by never having them even have a conversation about their ideals for government and whatever. In AOTC, Anakin makes a positive comment about dictatorship, and that's the most we hear of his political views. How about wanting the Republic to annex planets like Tatooine to abolish things like slavery which he hated? Impose order on the galaxy. A lot of interesting places the prequels could have gone.
autumnleaf
Member
But what is the explination, is the Force making all the Stormtroopers shoot in the wrong direction? He doesn't dodge a single shot, just a very long slow walk in a straight line. The first thing we ever see a Jedi do is learn to block blaster fire with a lightsaber, why bother if you can make all your enemies shoot in the wrong direction?
They are Stormtroopers, dude...
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yup.
How is it nope? Nothing changes. She gets the plans. She's on her way to Ben. They're supposed to go back to Alderaan.
That's what's always happened.
You're way overthinking it.
if you think it's preposterous now, why didn't you think it was preposterous then? It's the same shit. You just saw it happen. That's all that's changed. The characters have the exact same motivations, and end up in the exact same places they've always been.
Leia spells it out in the hologram.
Bail says essentially the same shit to Mon Mothma in this movie.
Nothing's different, man.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
The force has always been vague deus ex machina bullshit that lets x-wing torpedos turn 90 degrees into an exhaust port.
If you're referring to the Obi-Wan part of the plan, that was definitely always part of it. See Leia's recorded message that R2 plays for Obi.
She needed to deliver the plans and get Obi. That's her entire mission in New Hope, always has been. Vader catches up to her so she drops R2 on Tatooine with the plans and the message because she can't do it herself anymore, given that she's about to be arrested/kidnapped (or killed, as far as she knows) by Vader. Rogue One didn't change a single part of that.
I really don't see what is preposterous about any of it.
The only thing that's changed in our understanding of New Hope by seeing Rogue One is that we get a sense of the struggle and sacrifices the rebels face and how overwhelmed they are (which just adds to the importance of Obi and Luke for the rebellion), that the design flaw in the Death Star was put their on purpose (which makes so much sense that it feels like that was always the idea, I loved that), and that those cantina jerks had a really shitty week instead of just a shitty day (which I thought was funny, but I don't want to kickstart that entire cameo debate again so I'm kinda regretting mentioning it).
It all makes perfect sense. For a movie about a moon-sized death laser and space wizards of course.
Duane Cunningham
Member
Wait, Bail sending Leia to find Obi Wan is something he comes up with BEFORE she winds up with the plans, right? At the point Bail tells Mon Mothma that he'll put his trusted daughter on the job, the R1 gang is heading to Scariff.
Then, presumably after she's been given the assignment to go get Kenobi, she and the captain/crew of the Tantive get diverted to Scariff along with the rest of the Rebel Fleet. In the midst of the battle, they wind up with the plans and Vader hot on their tail.
Post Rogue One, they run from him for the next couple of days, probably trying to lose him in the hyperspace lanes. They can't go back to Rebel HQ at Yavin, because they can't shake him. But they do make their way toward Tattooine since that was her mission prior to now anyway, and it's above Tattooine that Vader finally gets them in the tractor beam.
I wonder if anyone has tallied up the total accuracy of stromtroopers throughout the films. Other than the opening scene in the original movie and Scarif in this movie it seems like they only actually managed to shoot a few people over the course of 5 movies outside those two scenes. Also some of those Rebels didn't get shot in that opening scene, at least one dude takes a dive.
autumnleaf
Member
Bail is the only person with knowledge of Obi-Wan's location, presumeably Leia is the only person he trusts with that information. Why he sends her and not him can be explained any number of ways that isn't really important, he says something about needing to return to Alderaan to tell the people peace has failed so perhaps he's going to prepare for war.
TangoAlphaLima
Member
I feel like you're sort of inserting the narrative we know now from Rogue One as the narrative we all originally assumed happened pre-ANH, and that's just not accurate.
Personally, I assumed that Leia had received those Death Star plans second or thirdhand from other Rebels. They were using her as a courier because she was an Imperial Senator and someone not specifically known to be a Rebel collaborator, and therefore she would have a better chance of getting the plans back to the Rebels. However, Imperial spies picked up the plans being transmitted to the Tantive IV, and then Darth Vader was on the hunt. When she was in trouble, Leia then turns to a nearby planet where she knows her father's friend lives. All of this would be a reasonable interpretation of what was happening in ANH by the context of the information we were given in ANH itself.
The "real" story we got instead leading up to ANH was silly. Leia is present at the Battle above Scarif for some reason. She then gets away with the Death Star plans, and she heads straight to Obi-Wan, because her father said they should go pick him up. It's just a dumb and lousy way of connecting Rogue One and ANH in order to give the fan service of seeing Leia and the Tantive IV, and the "Hope" line.
She explicitly says in ANH that her mission was to pick up Ben and bring him to Alderaan.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
No, the narrative in Rogue One is building backwards from everything already said in Star Wars.
Again, you're overthinking it. That's it. The new information you're provided doesn't change the old information you always had. That you interpreted the old information incorrectly (which it appears you did, which is okay, it's a 40 year old movie, it's been awhile) isn't Rogue One's fault.
BrokenFiction
Member
But the hologram of Leia literally says "I regret I am unable to present *my father's request* to you in person." She has been assigned a mission by Bail in 1977.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUaxXsqGeFI
EroticSushi
Member
I think I said this before, but people's memory of specific details from the old films is really in a shambles. Like, the movies have been so internalized now that we kind of gloss over the minutiae because we know what's coming, which really makes discussing these new films an interesting adventure.
autumnleaf
Member
Leia's entire mission is to get Obi-Wan and take him to Alderaan and always has been. Bail explicitly says he will send her to do just that. The only missing bit of information is why her and the Tantive IV are present at the final battle in the first place when their mission is to get Obi-Wan but you can explain that away however you like, maybe they diverted to Scarif to help when they heard what was happening.
TangoAlphaLima
Member
Which makes a whole lot more sense if she hadn't been in the middle of a giant battle and has Vader hunting her down, right?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's no easy way to reconcile what we're told in ANH with what we're told in Rogue One. Like much of the retconned stuff in Star Wars, it just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny.
I mean, Leia's exact words in the hologram were "my ship has fallen under attack". Well no shit your ship has fallen under attack, it was just involved in a giant battle at Scarif! It's just incongruous with what we're now told in Rogue One. I can see Leia's ship stopping off at Tatooine to pick up old Ben if they think they're secretly carrying the Death Star plans, but it's another thing to suggest that the Tantive IV was at Scarif, has the Death Star plans, but then still has to stop at Tatooine first to pick up Ben. It's nuts!
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yeah, there's a whole lot of this sorta discussion going on in the fandom now. People so used to discussing everything surrounding the movies that the actual details from the movies just become weird fuzzy bokeh memories.
Nah, it's pretty easy. You're just making it hard.
"My ship has fallen under attack." It has. Why is that weird. She thought they got away. Probably thought once they made the jump there's no way the Devastator was gonna follow it, or even could follow it. They weren't expecting to get hit up over Tatooine, obviously. And then they did.
It holds up to scrutiny just fine. It seems more like you just don't want it to. Maybe partially due to your incorrect interpretation of what Leia was telling people in 1977.
They had warped out of Scarif and were pursued and eventually Vader caught up and attacked them, so yeah, their ship had fallen under attack.
StopMakingSense
Member
Theres so much continuity that's been sorta bootstrapped onto ANH that doesn't make a lick of sense, from the sequels and the prequels. It doesn't concern me all that much.
It is a walk of faith analogue. an illustration of the concept of faith (in The Force) guiding him through chaos toward his goal, though he cannot physically see.
As far as the Jedi go, we know (TFA) that they could stop a blaster shot so maybe they could guide it. But I doubt most Jedi would have that kind of power to do so in volume. blocking would be much more efficient I would imagine.
BrokenFiction
Member
Sorry, but you aren't making any sense. It took her 15 seconds to record that hologram. 3PO catches her finishing it up. This is a flawless introduction to A New Hope.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
I think trying to apply limits to the Force and saying what the Force can and can't do is useless. The Force does whatever the script requires it to do. It's always been like this and trying to apply a hard science and rules to it is pointless.
demosthenes
Member
This thread just seems like people are making crazy jumps to avoid common sense.
Duane Cunningham
Member
If Vader is on her tail, she can't go back to Yavin, right?
yup. though there does seem to be an appreciation for general power levels among users within the movies/books/etc. But that's about it.
Yes there is, and it's been explained to you several times already, you're just determined to make it hard.
Nothing has changed or been retconned here. What was true in 1977 is true now. Literally to the damn letter, with huge flashing exclamation points.
People can use the force, but the force can use people too.
It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together; and apparently it can make Stormtroopers really shitty shots when it wants to.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
I'm starting to think the only thing people remember from the hologram is "Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope."
autumnleaf
Member
Yes I get what is is trying to be, it's a very obvious and heavy-handed example of a walk-of-faith. My problem is that he doesn't pause, duck (dip, dive, dodge), change his pace etc, he walks VERY slowly in a very straight line while dozens of Stormtroopers are shooting at him. It just looks wrong, his first appearance when he takes out the Stormtroopers and dodges their attacks makes more sense. The final battle suggests to me he is controlling the Stormtroopers to shoot in the wrong direction which is very strange given he's not a Jedi and no Jedi has ever been shown to do that.
If something like that happened in the Prequels it would have gotten torn to shreds.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
The Mon Cal Admiral had disobeyed orders and taken the fleet to Scarif, no? If Leia was just hitching a ride to Tatooine, she wouldn't expect the detour.
A more minor plothole would be why Vader's SD didn't hold the flagship in its tractor beam (or scan for any attached vessels) but we can just say that the ship was disabled so there was no point.
A more minor plothole would be why Vader's SD didn't hold the flagship in its tractor beam (or scan for any attached vessels) but we can just say that the ship was disabled so there was no point.
Haloid1177
Banned
He's this year's Zuvio.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yeah, there's a little bit of wiggle room I noticed on the last rewatch that I didn't think was there before. I thought by the time the comms officer caught up w/ Mon Mothma, that Raddus had already left, so the rest of the fleet had to catch up.
But what the comm officer says is that Raddus is on his ship already, and he's going to go fight. At which point the rest of the Alliance scrambles their fighters because fuck it, the Fish just forced everyone's hand.
Raddus hadn't actually left Yavin IV yet, it seems. Or you could argue that, at least. (their jumping in simultaneously seems to suggest that as well) Meaning the Tantive IV hadn't loaded up yet, either (which explains Artoo & Threepio's dumb cameo).
I'm sure someone somewhere will come and bondo that bit of continuity in the next few months.
I believe he rolls by shortly after Krennic yells to deploy the garrison and we cut to Cassian, Jyn, & K-2SO standing in the hallway.
I personally interpreted it as that the force was specifically causing the troopers to miss their shots, which is something I don't think we've seen the force used for up until this point. I thought it was brilliant.
I don't see why you should have to be a Jedi to do this. I thought he was clearly using the force in different ways. He originally dodged shots because there were only a handful of soldiers, so he was using it in more of a reactionary way. In his final scene he knew he wouldn't be able to do this and switched to meditation.
autumnleaf
Member
So why would Obi-Wan teach Luke to block blaster fire with a lightsaber? Why does every single Jedi learn to do that?
Like my dear, late grandmother always said: "Once you say something on the internet, stick to it, no matter what. Never admit defeat."
Bobby Roberts
Banned
"He's praying for the door to open"
"He's laughing because he knows that it works."
He's praying for the bolts to miss him.
It works.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
I mean, Obi Wan immediately turns into a force ghosts after getting tapped by a lightsaber. Why are you trying to figure out what the force is? The only thing you need to know about the force is that is does whatever it wants whenever it wants.
Because the force is vague shit. It can be channeled and manipulated all kinds of ways. Why doesn't Obi Wan teach Luke to force choke a motherfucker? It's clearly highly effective.
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