So about as much screen time as half the characters in the film?
Ayooooooooooooo
Rogue One: A Star Wars Story |OT| They rebel - SPOILERS
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So about as much screen time as half the characters in the film?
Ayooooooooooooo
I edited my post. Because it looks like you can't really do anything else in this state.. like all your efforts are centralized on it. Kinda like Yoda/Luke lifting the X-Wing.
I may be wrong but that was my interpretation.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
My interpretation is that Chirrut lets the Force work through him. He can't manipulate it at all. But he has figured out a way to open himself to it so thoroughly that it can manifest itself through him. It's why sometimes when he prays, things actually work. He's somehow tapped into it, but is totally at its will - which is why he says "all is as the Force wills it." I imagine the Guardians of the Whills know they can't control it, their entire aim is to try and simply be one with it, which is more than enough for them.
He prays hard enough, maybe the door will open. He prays hard enough, maybe none of the blaster bolts hit him.
If you can manipulate the Force, then you don't have to pray at all. You can control it. You're not at its mercy, flowing whatever direction it chooses to flow. Hence Jedi learning to channel it and manipulate it to block blaster bolts and shove people out of the way.
He prays hard enough, maybe the door will open. He prays hard enough, maybe none of the blaster bolts hit him.
If you can manipulate the Force, then you don't have to pray at all. You can control it. You're not at its mercy, flowing whatever direction it chooses to flow. Hence Jedi learning to channel it and manipulate it to block blaster bolts and shove people out of the way.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
This is exactly why trying to apply power level science to space magic is stupid. Does something miraculous need to happen for some vague reason? Use the force. And if that miraculous thing seems cool and powerful you have people go "well why don't you use that all the time?" Why do you need to deflect blaster lasers with a lightsaber when you can just freeze them with your hand? Because fuck you it's the Force. It power spikes when the script needs it to. Anyone who tries to say what the force can and can't do is a goddamn fool.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
And I think that's part of the point of the sequel trilogy, really. Whatever you thought you knew about the Force and how you're supposed to commune with it? Fuck all that.
I think it'd be a nice way to go if one of the messages of the sequel trilogy is essentially "don't let dogma get in the way of your spirituality."
I think it'd be a nice way to go if one of the messages of the sequel trilogy is essentially "don't let dogma get in the way of your spirituality."
Bobby Roberts
Banned
LegendofLex
Member
Yup, this.
The sequel trilogy/new movies are trying to upend the idea that the "right way to use the Force" is to wield it and control it.
The right way is to let it guide and control you and everything around you.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
Pretty much. People who are obsessed with limitations and regulations about the capabilities of the Force are basically the Jedi in the prequel era. And the whole point of the prequel era stuff is to show that the Jedi have lost their way by becoming too rigid and strict about the "rules" regarding the force. It's why the Jedi are such unlikable dicks in the prequels. They took the magic out of the space magic and distilled it down to a science with strict rules of who could join their club and sit in their circle.
funkystudent
Member
Its good.
Heck of a neat little bow they tie on the end there. No lose ends left alive LOL.
Cool to see Senitor Organa pop up. More prequel stuff when it makes sense is nice to see.
And CG face tech still isnt quite there yet. Its ALMOST there but them mouths still are not right.
Heck of a neat little bow they tie on the end there. No lose ends left alive LOL.
Cool to see Senitor Organa pop up. More prequel stuff when it makes sense is nice to see.
And CG face tech still isnt quite there yet. Its ALMOST there but them mouths still are not right.
It's funny how I honestly thought he was a bit of dodgy CGI while it later turned out it was a guy in a costume. I guess the shock of seeing Tarkin made me paranoid. Totally got that wrong.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
They need to start doing that Conan O' Brien Arnold impression thing where everything is fake, but the mouth is live action.
Chirrut isn't using the Force like a Jedi does, he's letting the Force use him.
"I am one with the Force, The Force is with me."
Bingo.
I love this. But I also hope we never have to hear that phrase ever again in a SW movie.
BrokenFiction
Member
Justin Bolger basically confirmed this on Twitter.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Well then there you go!
autumnleaf
Member
Well he obviously doesn't teach Luke to choke people because that's an aggressive act. Being able to make people shoot in the wrong direction seems like a perfect Jedi act, why wouldn't he teach him that?
My problem I suppose is basically free will. If it's a mindtrick then fair enough but if the Force itself is actually making the Stormtroopers miss then it is an active participant in what is happening and has taken a side. That's weird no? The Force is passive, it's an energy field, it doesn't take sides.
It helps Luke know where the blaster bolts will go but he still has to block them. It tells him when to shoot the proton torpedo but he still has to do it. It tells Anain when to take the corners in the Podrace but he still has to do it, the pod doesn't go into autopilot and fly itself.
If the Force suddenly becomes sentient and takes sides making the Stormtroopers miss someone who might as well be standing still that is really different to how it has been presented in the other films. If it's a giant mindtrick on everyone then fine but that guy wasn't a Jedi and had no training. If he had every so slightly dodged things I would have no problem with it.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Creating Anakin specifically to balance itself out tho
(I don't write the fiction, I just watch it)
Reagan's BR
Banned
The whole "Force created Anakin" idea was dumb from the beginning.
The Will of the Force has been a thing since 1999. And since Qui Gon was the first Jedi to achieve life after death specifically because he understood the Force better than anyone else, I'd say his interpretation is correct.
LegendofLex
Member
Luke: "You mean it controls your actions?"
Obi-Wan: "Partially. But it also obeys your commands."
autumnleaf
Member
MrSaturn99
Member
Just came back from seeing it and yeah, this sums up my thoughts. That battle was phenomenal.
These very questions are the kinds that lead to more concrete explanations of how the Force works.
Yes, I just blamed you on midichlorians.
As mentioned, the Force is vague and not explained deliberately. It works in mysterious ways. I for one applaud new ways of interpreting this universe. I'd never seen the grey-are rebels. I've never thought about the crystals in lightsabers being used to power the Death Star. I've never thought about sarcastic reprogrammed bad guy droids. I've never considered disciples and followers of the Force who aren't Jedi. In that vein, I've never seen the Force be used in this way. I think it's cool.
If you really need some consistency and some fanboy explanation for it to be plausible to enjoy the film, how about this - why don't the Jedi just dodge blaster fire instead of block it? Well obviously it doesn't work as well, as evidenced by the fact that Chirrut Imwe actually dies - it's not easy to hold up. Perhaps if he actually had a lightsabre and was properly Force attuned he'd have blocked them instead and survived.
Unless...Plageius did that
Not canon anymore but the situation was that Plagueis was trying to create a being with the Force but the Force used his experimentation to create Anakin. It subverted his intention.
autumnleaf
Member
Key word there is your actions. As in the Jedi who is using it, it doesn't suddenly take control of everyone around you on your behalf. It can guide you if you channel it. The Stormtroopers aren't using the Force.
I suppose basically once the Force picks sides you might as well ask why does the Force allow bad things to happen to good people and Palpatine to take over the Galaxy. I suppose this is more of discussion for another thread. I would simply had prefered it had he dodged some of the blaster bolts, it would make more sense given what we've seen in all the other films.
Hadn't seen this earlier. This is amazing.
I actually love that Chirrut puts FULL faith in te Force. It's like he believes in the Force so fully that he stakes his life on it. Baze doesn't believe and basically begs him to come back.
Maybe it's blind luck or maybe it really is the Force. In our context, we knowntyrbForce exists in this universe, but from theirs it's more like, say, praying to God not to be shot. Movies have done this a lot.
I thought it was cool.
For the record, I loved Chirrut and his chanting. Felt like a character that fit in the world to me, and especially introducing him in that market scene was very cool to me. Made that place feel very real. Just the kind of religious nutter you'd expect on an alien street corner, except with this being Star Wars there is some truth in what he's rambling about.
I always just saw the Force as a basic simplified fantasy version of Zen meditation. Nothing more. I hate that force planet thing with those personifications of the light/dark side from Clone Wars. Totally ruins it, and totally misses the point of what the Force should be about to me. Keep it simple, keep it mysterious.
Looking at just the OT and ignoring everything that came after, I rather like the idea the you don't get born into being a force user, but rather that anyone, even someone like Han Solo or Jabba or whoever, could achieve Jedi status after enough introspection and meditation. Just like in real life, although you don't get cool levitation powers in our version. It's just that Han is such a selfish character which is holding him back.
I get why that wouldn't give you interesting stories, but Chirrut being able to use the Force like he does doesn't seem out of place at all to me.
I actually agree with this a lot, never really thought of it that way. I guess since it's seen as more of a religion than a power (in R1), some people can tap into it without actually controlling its power.
SporeCrawler
Member
The real question is
Why have donnie yen in there and not give him a lightsaber to fight with Vader... oh be ause it would make Vader look bad.
Gotta have that Destiny in your movie so it's extra deep.
I felt like maybe he was in a terrible situation as a child and chanted this to get him through it and something crazy happened that reaffirmed his belief in the force. So it carried on into his adulthood. That's what I thought I'd when I saw the film anyway.
For the record, I loved Chirrut and his chanting. Felt like a character that fit in the world to me, and especially introducing him in that market scene was very cool to me. Made that place feel very real. Just the kind of religious nutter you'd expect on an alien street corner, except with this being Star Wars there is some truth in what he's rambling about.
I always just saw the Force as a basic simplified fantasy version of Zen meditation. Nothing more. I hate that force planet thing with those personifications of the light/dark side from Clone Wars. Totally ruins it, and totally misses the point of what the Force should be about to me. Keep it simple, keep it mysterious.
Looking at just the OT and ignoring everything that came after, I rather like the idea the you don't get born into being a force user, but rather that anyone, even someone like Han Solo or Jabba or whoever, could achieve Jedi status after enough introspection and meditation. Just like in real life, although you don't get cool levitation powers in our version. It's just that Han is such a selfish character which is holding him back.
I get why that wouldn't give you interesting stories, but Chirrut being able to use the Force like he does doesn't seem out of place at all to me.
Either way, the chanting grew in me on the second viewing.
autumnleaf
Member
I totally get the idea of putting faith in the Force. That is precisely why the final trench run in ANH is amazing, R2 is busted and Luke turns off the targeting computer so he can put everything into what the Force tells him. The others use their computers and it tells them when to shoot and they still miss. Luke lets the Force tell him and bingo. It's great. That's exactly how the Force should be.
To me though there is a difference between say Anakin praying to the Force that Sebulba screws up and crashes his pod (and the Force makes it happen...) compared to say Anakin trusting what the Force tells him, when to take the corners etc. and he uses it well enough to beat Sebulba.
The idea you can pray to the Force to control other people starts to muddy things a bit for me.
I don't think there's any difference between the way Jedi have normally used the Force in the series and the way Chirrut does it. He wasn't trained as a Jedi, he just has a different way of doing it.
For example, Obi-Wan can lightly change people's thoughts/emotions by waving his hands and saying a sentence. The hand movement isn't what's doing it, it's him influencing the force - the connection between everything and everyone in the universe - with his mind to affect other elements in that universe, in this case a stormtrooper's mind.
The Force as explained in the OT, and especially Empire, is basically the beginners guide to zen meditation. People have different ways of achieving that meditative state in real life too - some people sit in complete silence, some people absorb nature sounds, some people go on long walks, some people chant - and that last one is obviously what influenced the creation of Chirrut as a character. He isn't as powerful as a Jedi but he's pretty much doing the same thing - the way he achieves that meditative state is just different for him because of how he was trained (not your regular Jedi training but rather a subsection of Force followers).
So, TL;DR, what I'm trying to say is that I don't see it as him praying as such (he's not praying to a God), but rather that it's a mantra - not a prayer. I think that's an important difference.
Prayer would be: asking the Force to alter the universe to be benificial to him.
Mantra: by repeating his mantra over and over again he puts himself in the meditative state necessary to put himself on that Force wavelength, so to speak, to influence the world through the Force in much the same way the Jedi do.
autumnleaf
Member
If it's effectively a giant mindtrick then I don't really have a problem with it, that's consistent. If it's him appealing to the Force and there is some dude in the clouds with white beard controlling everyone like puppets and goes OK buddy then makes the Stormtroopers miss their shots that's where I have a problem.
I really liked his first appearance for what it's worth, a blind guy trusting the Force to fight and dodge blasters makes sense, it's exactly like Luke blocking the training droid with the blastshield down. I thought that scene demonstrated what they were going for better than the one at the end.
Edit: Like I said originally I'd have just had him use the Force to pull the switch. Make it clear he's never done anything like that before but he belives and trusts in it so much he does it in the final battle. I think that would have worked better.
Not only are you way overthinking this whole thing, but you are proposing changes that fundamentally change (and ruin) the character arc and the emotional core of the movie.
No, he can't just do a force pull on the switch, because he needs to use his unwavering faith one more time, and his companion needs to follow him to hos death and do the same.
You are proposing the movie be thematically destroyed so that it fits fanboy theories of how a purposefully vague power works.
The defector imperial pilot ran to the ship through blaster fire to establish the comms link based on courage and to his death. He did similarly, walking, based on faith.
autumnleaf
Member
How would pulling the switch using the Force if he has never done something like that before not be using his faith?
And yeah, he RAN. He didn't walk slowly for 30 seconds.
sparky2112
Member
Toy design, manufacture, and distribution don't happen overnight, son.
The personal sacrifice and risk is an essential part of the scene. Your idea destroys the ending of not one, but two characters.
Someone does not "use" their faith -- I used that word incorrectly. You fundamentally misunderstood what the movie was going for, IMO.
Exactly.
For all intents and purposes, to these characters the Force may or may not exist. For Chirrut, he has a sense of it but deep down he doesn't really know how far his Faith actually works for him. The culmination of his arc is that he puts total faith in it to succeed at the end but at the ultimate cost.
It's fine.
autumnleaf
Member
OK but again tell me how pulling the switch wouldn't be using his faith, that's what you said.
But the scene we see in the film he is suddenly in no danger because every Stormtrooper suddenly loses the ablity to shoot straight. If he had dodged the blaster shots that would have been consistent with what he did previously.
I've made my point as clearly as I think I can, sorry. If you think he was suddenly in no danger, again, you missed the point of the scene IMO.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yup. If you make Chirrut a person who can control and/or manipulate the Force in any way, you break his character. His character is based on faith in the Force. There's no need for faith if you know its there and can bend it to your will if necessary. He can't bend it to his will. He can't control it. He just believes that if he tries very, very hard, he can be one with the Force for a moment or two. That the Force will work its will through him.
He gets rewarded for that belief in the end.
I like the way it's done in the film better because he's clearly trusting the force to protect him and doesn't need to dodge shit since he places his life in the force's hands. That scene is all about belief and faith.
autumnleaf
Member
I could agree with your point if he had not shown any sort of abilities with the Force previously in the film but he takes out a squadron of Stormtroopers without being able to see. He can clearly already use it so what exactly is he putting faith in at the end? He's been using the Force the whole movie otherwise how does a blind man dodge a blaster shot?
Luke trusting the Force in ANH to make the shot when he has no experience using it is a perfect example of putting faith into something. When you already know something for a fact it is not faith. Him pulling the switch when he has never done so before would be faith.
It's important to keep in mind the themes of the film on how different people make sacrifices differently for a mission they believe in.
The movie is almost hamfisted in this: There's faith, courage, intelligence, skill, love, trust.
Hell, the movie makes a joke of the robot quipping probabilities at the main characters.
The movie is almost hamfisted in this: There's faith, courage, intelligence, skill, love, trust.
Hell, the movie makes a joke of the robot quipping probabilities at the main characters.
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