Albino_Yeti
Member
Admiral Raddus, may the Force be with you
And Vader let Raddus go because of the excellent dining experience they shared together, this is now canon.
Rogue One: A Star Wars Story |OT| They rebel - SPOILERS
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Admiral Raddus, may the Force be with you
In all likelihood? Tortured for information (stolen plans whereabouts, location of the secret rebel base)... and then executed whether or not they gave up anything. The Rebels suffered pretty heavy losses in that battle.
After this, I'm down with movies taking place in between the original trilogy. One of them better be called Shadows of the Empire and it better be pretty damn fantastic.
UnemployedVillain
Member
To show how unhinged Saw was? They made the point that he was so radical that he split off from the rest of the rebels yet up to that point you'd only seen him rescuing Jyn as a child. They needed to do something to show he lived up to the claims
Admiral Raddus, may the Force be with you
And Vader let Raddus go because of the excellent dining experience they shared together, this is now canon.
I also accept this as canon.
Raddus voluntarily returned to be Vader's personal chef on Mustafar.
Sure, but other than being a cute factoid, that still serves no purpose.
CloudyTuba
Member
If I can keep on believing in Skippy the Jedi Droid, you can go on believing this as well.
Damn son. I didn't think about that. Ackbar does look younger than Raduus: (ignore the caption)
I love the EU.
sparky2112
Member
Random thought: I really like how dark and crappy the weather is when Krennic shows up to take away Gyn's dad. Just set the tone right off the bat...
Trigonometrize.
Member
World building in Star Wars definitely serves a purpose, especially after TFA which was really weak in that regard. I didn't like Saw and the tentacle monster on my first viewing because I didn't know wtf was going on, but second time I liked how it showed the Empire driving the factions of the rebel alliance to different levels of crazy.
Jack Random
Member
technically Skippy appeared in Tales, which is not considered canonical, even in the old EU
CloudyTuba
Member
technically Skippy appeared in Tales, which is not considered canonical, even in the old EU
Facts have no power here, Jack. Skippy is canon in my heart.
Veritigo_X
Member
I don't really think they did a good job showing him as radical. He seemed paranoid about a possible Imperial spy, but not necessarily radical. It just seemed like him and his crew were just doing typical rebel stuff.
Count Dookkake
Member
Th tentacle monster is torture.
Vinsanity.
Member
Would I be dumb to assume that a toy/die-cast of a character that never made it into the film might be rare/expensive to find some day? Like I'm assuming they won't keep making merch for this character as time goes on?
Trigonometrize.
Member
Typical rebel stuff at this point doesn not even include fighting. Scariff is the first major battle against the Empire I believe, let alone taking them on in the middle of crowded streets and tentacle monsters and kidnapping. Take a good look at the stuff the Rebellion actually does in the OT and they're pretty clearly different.
Veritigo_X
Member
I'm thinking in the context of the entire canon (at least what I've seen). The stuff Saw and his crew does isn't so different from what we see in Star Wars: Rebels. Or any different from what he was doing during the Clone Wars when he was first introduced. The Jedi Order seemed cool with those tactics then.
The tentacle monster was pretty fucked up, but a couple scenes before we see Cassian shoot a poor man in the back because he had a broken arm, so...
I think Cassian shot him because he got what info he needed from the guy (Cassian is a spy for the rebellion) so that dude didn't need to live anymore. Plus Stormtroopers were coming.
It wasn't that he didn't need to live anymore, but that storm troopers were coming and he wouldn't be able to escape, therefore he'd get caught and give intel to the Empire and probably be tortured and killed. Cassian had to off him to prevent that.
FriendlyGoat
Member
I think the bombing imperials in a public square, not seeming to care about collateral damage is pretty radical, and obviously borrows from the real world as a shortcut for characterization.
That was Rogue One's answer to Han shooting first imo, "he's a bad ass, guys!" moment. That's the main issue I have with Episode 7 and this one, they really do seen like Fanfic level narratives and characters and events that only serve to callback to other characters and moments in the other movies.
That was definitely not illustrating he's a "badass." It was showing the terrible things he has to do in the service of what's ostensibly a greater good. That wasn't meant as a cool moment, and I don't think it came across that way.
JaseMath
Member
Saw it. Really enjoyed the film as a whole; loved the last 10 minutes. I want/need to see it again since I had to piss for most of the film and I was uncomfortable. I didn't get up, so that's kind of a testament to my engagement. Anyway...
1. ESB
2. ANH
3. TFA
4. RO
5. RotJ
6. RotS
7. AotC
8. TPM
1. ESB
2. ANH
3. TFA
4. RO
5. RotJ
6. RotS
7. AotC
8. TPM
Bobby Roberts
Banned
You can either have it be an adaptation of that book, or it can be fantastic. It can't be both.
How much of a SW fan were yall before watching RO? I didn't grow up on SW, so I didn't think highly of the new movies. When I expressed to my buddies that I thought RO was boring, they flipped out on me and said I was wrong lol. I just found out they are hardcore SW fans, reading all of the novels and such.
Seems like:
-Neutral SW fans didn't like RO much.
-Casual SW fans liked RO well enough.
-Hardcore SW fans loved RO.
Seems like:
-Neutral SW fans didn't like RO much.
-Casual SW fans liked RO well enough.
-Hardcore SW fans loved RO.
KillerDark
Member
Agreed completely!
Trigonometrize.
Member
I would say I'm hardcore (though if you're defining this as someone who reads all the books and comics and shows then I'm more nuetral) and I liked it well enough. My dad is nuetral and he liked it well enough. Your observations seem accurate to me.
WadiumArcadium
Member
I love all the Star Wars movies with no exception. I don't dislike any single one of them.
Became a fan of the Star Wars movies with the OT when I was a little kid.
Watched all the prequels in the theater and also loved them.
Watched TFA and loved it.
Watched Rogue One and loved it.
I don't call myself a "Star Wars fan" because of the negative connotations that term carries, but I like all the movies, the stories, the characters, the action, the music, etc.
I haven't read a single comic book or any of the EU.
CloudyTuba
Member
That was the purpose yes, but it did feel a little awkward that the scene didn't really lead anywhere. It didn't even have any effect on the plot going forward. Learning the truth did not cause Saw to trust Bodhi anyway, he still locked him in a cell. The forewarned insanity only lasted a whole 30 seconds. Nothing changed at all.
Instead of locking him in a cell to be useless, having a single short scene of a jolly Saw enthusiastically slapping a still loopy Bodhi on the back as a comrade would have at least shown some sort of result from that scene.
Then after talking to Jyn and getting the whole story, he could have sent a slightly more sane Bodhi to go let the prisoners out so that the team could escape the impending doom. Now he'd even be useful to the scene.
One more thing: If instead of saying "I will no longer run," Saw said "I can no longer run" then that would have avoided a lot of the sass his death is receiving. Then instead of seemingly deciding to die, everyone would just think "Oh, the shitty legs and the cane. I get it."
With just a little bit of a tune up I think that whole section could have been smoother. It was almost there.
Freewheelin'
Member
Just saw the film again. Confirmation that the film is good and far from great, and all of that lies in its treatment of character.
The reason Obi Wan's death and Luke's reaction works so well is because you're invested in their characters and the performances; Hamill, while being relatively amateurish, is so earnest and warm that you pull for him (the same as him working alongside nothing but robots and puppets in ESB).
The reason Han's freezing in ESB hits so hard is because of Ford and Fisher's performances and the definition of the characters over the two films so far; without that, "I love you/I know" just doesn't work.
The reason moments like the end of TFA with Rey's force awakening, Han's death and Finn/Poe's bro hug is because the acting and characterisation is so vivid and well drawn out across the board. Ultimately familiar iconography and some plot rehashes/developments don't matter so much, because the film is in service of character, not plot. The reason the OT works is because we're invested in whether Luke defeats the Empire, not whether the Empire are simply defeated.
I think Rogue One - intentionally or not - favours plot over character, and is weaker for it. The best performances - Ahmed and Wen - are minimised in favour of plot, and even their deaths are in deference of plot; Bodhi goes out having just plugged something in, Baze shooting a few people (which is what he's been doing the entire film); there's no big defining moment that validates their existence in the film or makes you go "fuck yeah, that's why I want them to succeed". Because ultimately, you want them to succeed because you need them to for Luke, Han and Leia.
Even Jyn and Cassian's deaths feel out of sync with what would work for character over plot (I'm also not a fan of Jones' or Luna's performances; too little charisma individually and too little chemistry together); the two need to be wiped out so their absences in ANH are explained. The film's strongest moment - Vader's scene at the end, nailing what the character means to its audience in some particularly well done fan service - would have been even stronger if it was Cassian leading a last stand versus insurmountable odds, Jyn proclaiming the message means hope instead of Leia before going down. We know Vader can take out faceless goons with little to no effort; for Jyn and Cassian's sacrifices to work as well as intended, and to directly tie those sacrifices into ANH as well as intended, they needed to go out like heroes to the saga's villain, I reckon.
Rogue One skimps on character development by relying on the strength of pre-existing ones with too much faith; Tarkin is a good character who unfortunately undermines Krennic far too much for him to have any lasting impact (and unfortunately, Mendelsohn - one of current cinema's great actors - is served poorly as the film goes on, despite a wonderful opening scene where he displays the callousness the character should have been displaying throughout instead of looking wounded and barking at CGI creations). Similarly, Vader's first appearance exists for no reason other than to please the audience waiting in bated breath for his arrival.
Similar missteps are made throughout; for every small interesting character beat (Bodhi recoiling in fear at Saw's Vader-like breathing, Bor Gullet showing how far Saw has sunk into extremism, Cassian killing the informant), there's other, bigger issues that undermine previous choices; key amongst these are ones like Chirrut's faith in the force not leading to any real display of power, or Cassian returning from the dead to shoot Krennic instead of Jyn getting the satisfaction of doing so, or the aforementioned finale where Vader looks as cool as he ever has done, but without real stakes considering he's killing no one we care (or should be caring) about.
There are a few unrelated things that I'm not a fan of either: the two lead performances, Whittaker acting like he's in another movie entirely, a sense of incoherency and lack of confusion early on, the whole first act hinging on looking for Saw when he's out of the picture and forgotten about very quickly)... but there is enough in here that makes it a good film.
Good performances from Ahmed, Wen, Yen and Tudyk in particular, some really wonderful practical work and production design, a few iconic images (the Death Star obscuring the sun, Vader igniting his lightsaber, the AT-AT in the fog evoking that Godzilla shot Edwards included in his last film) and a score by Giacchino that is very good by itself; when you consider the context that he made that in a month, it's astounding. The action is good, the aesthetics excellent, and it is never a disaster like many many aspects of the prequels.
But it favours plot over character, and spreads itself far too thin to try and sketch out all of its characters. It's a hard job to do both in a film of this scale with its intended audience, I know; I always refer to 12 Angry Men when discussing incredible characterisation because every single one is so distinct and well rounded within the first half an hour, and that's achieved in some way because the plot is so simple.
But Star Wars managed it. It devoted 40 minutes to two robots pottering about the desert so we knew them innately and gave a fuck about them when it came to high stakes. Ultimately I just didn't really care about the characters, and I don't think the film does either. It just wants to get them out of the way so we can get to A New Hope.
Still good though. Apologies for the essay. Christmas break dictates I have nothing to do but write about Star Wars and eat Maltesers.
The reason Obi Wan's death and Luke's reaction works so well is because you're invested in their characters and the performances; Hamill, while being relatively amateurish, is so earnest and warm that you pull for him (the same as him working alongside nothing but robots and puppets in ESB).
The reason Han's freezing in ESB hits so hard is because of Ford and Fisher's performances and the definition of the characters over the two films so far; without that, "I love you/I know" just doesn't work.
The reason moments like the end of TFA with Rey's force awakening, Han's death and Finn/Poe's bro hug is because the acting and characterisation is so vivid and well drawn out across the board. Ultimately familiar iconography and some plot rehashes/developments don't matter so much, because the film is in service of character, not plot. The reason the OT works is because we're invested in whether Luke defeats the Empire, not whether the Empire are simply defeated.
I think Rogue One - intentionally or not - favours plot over character, and is weaker for it. The best performances - Ahmed and Wen - are minimised in favour of plot, and even their deaths are in deference of plot; Bodhi goes out having just plugged something in, Baze shooting a few people (which is what he's been doing the entire film); there's no big defining moment that validates their existence in the film or makes you go "fuck yeah, that's why I want them to succeed". Because ultimately, you want them to succeed because you need them to for Luke, Han and Leia.
Even Jyn and Cassian's deaths feel out of sync with what would work for character over plot (I'm also not a fan of Jones' or Luna's performances; too little charisma individually and too little chemistry together); the two need to be wiped out so their absences in ANH are explained. The film's strongest moment - Vader's scene at the end, nailing what the character means to its audience in some particularly well done fan service - would have been even stronger if it was Cassian leading a last stand versus insurmountable odds, Jyn proclaiming the message means hope instead of Leia before going down. We know Vader can take out faceless goons with little to no effort; for Jyn and Cassian's sacrifices to work as well as intended, and to directly tie those sacrifices into ANH as well as intended, they needed to go out like heroes to the saga's villain, I reckon.
Rogue One skimps on character development by relying on the strength of pre-existing ones with too much faith; Tarkin is a good character who unfortunately undermines Krennic far too much for him to have any lasting impact (and unfortunately, Mendelsohn - one of current cinema's great actors - is served poorly as the film goes on, despite a wonderful opening scene where he displays the callousness the character should have been displaying throughout instead of looking wounded and barking at CGI creations). Similarly, Vader's first appearance exists for no reason other than to please the audience waiting in bated breath for his arrival.
Similar missteps are made throughout; for every small interesting character beat (Bodhi recoiling in fear at Saw's Vader-like breathing, Bor Gullet showing how far Saw has sunk into extremism, Cassian killing the informant), there's other, bigger issues that undermine previous choices; key amongst these are ones like Chirrut's faith in the force not leading to any real display of power, or Cassian returning from the dead to shoot Krennic instead of Jyn getting the satisfaction of doing so, or the aforementioned finale where Vader looks as cool as he ever has done, but without real stakes considering he's killing no one we care (or should be caring) about.
There are a few unrelated things that I'm not a fan of either: the two lead performances, Whittaker acting like he's in another movie entirely, a sense of incoherency and lack of confusion early on, the whole first act hinging on looking for Saw when he's out of the picture and forgotten about very quickly)... but there is enough in here that makes it a good film.
Good performances from Ahmed, Wen, Yen and Tudyk in particular, some really wonderful practical work and production design, a few iconic images (the Death Star obscuring the sun, Vader igniting his lightsaber, the AT-AT in the fog evoking that Godzilla shot Edwards included in his last film) and a score by Giacchino that is very good by itself; when you consider the context that he made that in a month, it's astounding. The action is good, the aesthetics excellent, and it is never a disaster like many many aspects of the prequels.
But it favours plot over character, and spreads itself far too thin to try and sketch out all of its characters. It's a hard job to do both in a film of this scale with its intended audience, I know; I always refer to 12 Angry Men when discussing incredible characterisation because every single one is so distinct and well rounded within the first half an hour, and that's achieved in some way because the plot is so simple.
But Star Wars managed it. It devoted 40 minutes to two robots pottering about the desert so we knew them innately and gave a fuck about them when it came to high stakes. Ultimately I just didn't really care about the characters, and I don't think the film does either. It just wants to get them out of the way so we can get to A New Hope.
Still good though. Apologies for the essay. Christmas break dictates I have nothing to do but write about Star Wars and eat Maltesers.
^That's a good take on the film. My one disagreement was that Chirrut did display plenty of power and did things no one else could have... especially for a blind man.
I just want the name to carry over, not the original source material.
I think critiques have been all over the place regardless of how much someone is into SW, but it's generally been positive. I'm a pretty big fan of the originals and some of the games, I liked it well enough. behind the OT and TFA, but still well above the PT.
I just want the name to carry over, not the original source material.
I think critiques have been all over the place regardless of how much someone is into SW, but it's generally been positive. I'm a pretty big fan of the originals and some of the games, I liked it well enough. behind the OT and TFA, but still well above the PT.
I'm pretty neutral. Like the originals, hate the prequels, thought TFA was okay.
Didn't really like Rogue One that much, if you look at it as a stand alone movie it really does kinda suck. The characters are paper thin with minimal backstory, I really didn't give a shit about any of them.
No real sense of charm, fun or adventure in the film, mainly because if you know the series, you kinda know exactly what's gonna happen, and it's full of eye roll worthy references, fan service and convenient plot advancement.
I dunno. I hate using the word "boring" to criticise media, but this was a pretty fucking boring Star Wars movie. It just felt like a generic action movie set in the SW universe.
Still better than the prequels though.
UnemployedVillain
Member
You interpreting it as a callback doesn't make it a callback. It clearly was to establish Cassian's character and how he'd been forced to do deplorable things for the cause and was desensitized to it. He was very much a pragmatist, who strictly followed orders and did what was needed to stay alive. That was his character and he didn't start to change and become more idealistic, until Jyn came into the picture and he decided not to snipe her father.
I feel like a lot of people here criticize the movie for bad characterization, then just brush off the scenes that server as characterization
Bobby Roberts
Banned
If that was gonna happen, it'd have happened with The Force Awakens (Shadow of the Empire was a suggested title for it).
CosmicQueso
Member
For all the talk about the film needing character development, sounds like some of you wanted a 4 hour movie with a powerpoint to go with it.
I enjoyed the film for being a big dumb Star Wars film, enjoying the Catalyst book even more.
I enjoyed the film for being a big dumb Star Wars film, enjoying the Catalyst book even more.
Freewheelin'
Member
I don't think it necessarily needed a lot more character development, it just needed to prioritise them over plot for me.
Like I said, Star Wars - standalone - wins me over in regards to Luke, Han, Leia, Threepio and Artoo in two hours. TFA did it with Finn, Kylo and Rey. It doesn't need four hours. I just value character over plot.
Like I said, Star Wars - standalone - wins me over in regards to Luke, Han, Leia, Threepio and Artoo in two hours. TFA did it with Finn, Kylo and Rey. It doesn't need four hours. I just value character over plot.
Lifejumper
Member
CosmicQueso
Member
Just imagine what WB would have done with Star Wars... *shudder*
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I think the type of movie they were trying to make—"Men on a mission"—tends to inherently flatten characterization so that you have to rely on broad-strokes characterization and get your actors to fill in what's not on the page. Because the characters in those types of stories tend to mostly be their function in the plot.
Where Rogue One tends to drop the ball the most is that the men on this mission really don't bounce off each other. Baze & Chirrut basically only talk to each other. Neither of them really talk to Cassian. There aren't moments (this happens in Star Trek Beyond, to cite a recent example) where team members are interacting with each other in different configurations, thus revealing new information about who they are through their actions.
Basically - everyone bounces off either Cassian & Jyn, and that's it. You don't have Hudson talking shit to Vasquez type dynamics.
That said - that there's this much personality is still like a quantum fuckin' leap for Gareth Edwards. Cranston aside, most of his "characters" are dead-eyed, stone-faced, mouth-agape ciphers from which empty words emanate. In this film they are people. Not the most fully-fleshed-out people, but recognizable flesh-and-blood (and droid) personalities. Sure, that's probably grading on a little bit of a curve, but it's also not too different from Lucas lucking out with his cast on American Graffiti and Star Wars and ending up with real personalities there, too. Edwards & Lucas share a lot of similarities as directors, and their approach towards acting seems to be one of the more non-complimentary ones.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Yeah, but both of those had the luxury being able to spread their story elements over multiple movies, and not having to be concerned about a clean ending. Not to mention, the characters had to be likable as viewers would be following them for multiple movies, as opposed to characters who had to be likable enough to care about their struggle, but not so likable that them all dying at the end would ruin the movie for viewers. The focus was definitely more on the plot in this movie, because it had to be. Scenes meant for characterization had to also double as plot progression
Miles Quaritch
Member
How much blame does PJ really carry for how the Hobbit turned out?
It was one book stretched over three movies, no-one could have made that work. WB were just too greedy and thought they'd make decent bank on stretching them out.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Nah. Jackson pushed for that 3rd movie. The narrative that the evil movie studio made the noble artist go against their real wishes is tasty, but it doesn't go down in this instance.
Jackson wanted a trilogy. And he wanted it to play like it did. He got caught out there.
3 movies between ESB and ESB. Specifically when Luke leaves Hoth and before he makes it to Bespin.
Freewheelin'
Member
Agree there with Bobby; I think Jones and particularly Luna were left a little to flounder here. I can imagine Jones just being told to be like Leia and Rey, and work out the rest for yourself. She shines when she's asked to emote, especially in scenes alongside Mikkelsen (holograph or otherwise), but just delivering dialogue she comes across stilted; but stilted and not buying into it, unlike Hamill who is so genuine it doesn't matter that he isn't very good in terms of real craft in ANH.
And I don't know what the fuck Whittaker was doing.
You can even tell Mendelsohn was struggling once or twice, and he is one of the most electric screen actors of the century. Once or twice he's just howling at Tarkin or lackeys and it feels so undefined. The two minutes at the start with Galen is far beyond what he gets later on.
And I don't know what the fuck Whittaker was doing.
You can even tell Mendelsohn was struggling once or twice, and he is one of the most electric screen actors of the century. Once or twice he's just howling at Tarkin or lackeys and it feels so undefined. The two minutes at the start with Galen is far beyond what he gets later on.
Freewheelin'
Member
But Star Wars does have a clean ending. It stands alone even more so than Rogue One does; the heroes win, Vader for all intents and purposes could well have died spinning off into space, Tarkin does die and the Death Star blows up.
Even without ESB and everything else that comes after it, Luke and Han's journeys in particular are extremely well earned beyond the plot just requiring it.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yeah, Whitaker seemed to be like "Okay, whatever it was I did in Battlefield Earth, and for the fuck of it, a little of Amin from Last King. I'm not in this shit for long and they keep reshooting me. Fuck it." They announced his character is going to Rebels to fill in the gap between Clone Wars and Rogue One, and I couldn't even give a shit, really, because I know what he winds up as, and I'm not interested in charting the path of an angry teenage hothead to lip-licking whispery idiot who sics Brain Octopi on people in hiccuping barks.
And Mendelsohn diminished over the course of the movie precisely because most of his acting had to be against a really distracting advance in VFX technology. That can't help. He & Galen in the intro was great. He & Galen on the platform was really good too. But the rest of the time he's up against CGI Tarkin and his weirdmouth, and Vader, who is sucking all the air out of the room just by standing there.
It's no surprise his presence and performance diminished the longer the film went on.
UnemployedVillain
Member
What are you talking about? You realize he was acting with a real actor. Tarkin wasn't completely CG, his face was. They had an actual actor who looked and sounded similar like him, and grafted Tarkin's face onto his
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-KJGLRmt0w
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