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[Bobby Roberts]

What are you talking about?

I know how the movie was made. I'm saying it's harder to buy him because you're pretty constantly distracted by the digital effect he's acting against. I'm not talking about the making-of, I'm talking about the actual watching of the finished product.

Plus, like I said, the digital effect and the literal pop-culture icon he's forced to stand off against for most of his scenes tends to AUTOMATICALLY diminish him. He's not given great stuff in those scenes, either.

 

[Veelk]

And Mendelsohn diminished over the course of the movie precisely because most of his acting had to be against a really distracting advance in VFX technology. That can't help. He & Galen in the intro was great. He & Galen on the platform was really good too. But the rest of the time he's up against CGI Tarkin and his weirdmouth, and Vader, who is sucking all the air out of the room just by standing there.

It's no surprise his presence and performance diminished the longer the film went on.

His actual character was just a long string of failures as well. Did he have a single interaction in the movie where he wasn't either humiliated, outplayed, or injured? That tends to put down the threat the villain carries.

Shit, even Loki was introduced in Avengers successfully taking down shield.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Nah. Jackson pushed for that 3rd movie. The narrative that the evil movie studio made the noble artist go against their real wishes is tasty, but it doesn't go down in this instance.

Jackson wanted a trilogy. And he wanted it to play like it did. He got caught out there.

Huh. That's a shame, I would have thought he'd know the source material couldn't take it stretching to a third movie.

Disappointing it was all down to him.

 

[CloudyTuba]

Admiral Raddus, may the Force be with you

You know, I was thinking about Raddus some more, and I gotta say that I like the Star Warsy names in R1 are way better than TFA. Admiral Raddus is an A+ name.

Raddus, Cassian, Chirrut, Krennic. We've got some winners in there. Different without sounding stupid. And I like that Orson is in the mix, too. In the OT we had names like Luke and Ben, so every now and then they gotta throw in a real name too.

Poe, Kylo, Snoke...wasn't so hot on names like those.

I know how the movie was made. I'm saying it's harder to buy him because you're pretty constantly distracted by the digital effect he's acting against. I'm not talking about the making-of, I'm talking about the actual watching of the finished product.

Plus, like I said, the digital effect and the literal pop-culture icon he's forced to stand off against for most of his scenes tends to AUTOMATICALLY diminish him. He's not given great stuff in those scenes, either.

This is true. In the other scenes you mentioned and a few other moments, Krennic was really good. However I hardly even remember him in the scenes in which he was with Tarkin or Vader. He's not the one I'm watching in those scenes.

I wish he'd had a stronger moment to shine near the end of the movie before he got lasered.

 

[Monocle]

We need Peter Jackson to do a SW movie.

EDIT: Forgot the hobbit trilogy. NVM.

It's so profoundly tedious to see people act like The Hobbit trilogy turned out the way it did because Peter Jackson is a hack. He directed LOTR didn't he?

How about you look into the actual details of The Hobbit's extraordinarily troubled production before going "Oh wow this guy sucks haha"? Like for example the woefully inadequate preproduction time due to Del Toro's exit. (LOTR got 2 years.) Or the fact that scenes had to be written on the day of filming.

Chances are, your favorite movie director would lay a ripe turd in conditions like that.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

This is why I wish they didn't have Tarkin in such a big role as he is. Both Tarkin and Vader sap any kind of energy out of Krennic's character. Tarkin and Vader and Palpatine should not be the only threatening people in a position of power in the empire. It's like I said earlier, they were afraid of diminishing the presence and power of fan favorites by introducing a new antagonist. But he's not really an antagonist. The most awful thing we see him do to the main characters is kill Jyn's mom. The rebels killed Galen and Krennic escapes and only encounters the characters again at the end. He should have been a menacing presence like he was presented as in the initial trailer. He should have been a competent and smart tactician that the rebels had to outsmart. Vader should have regarded him the same as Tarkin. The Empire should have many competent and effective generals, not just one. And when he died, Tarkin would take his position as head Death Star guy. But I think they were afraid of making Tarkin seem not competent because a position fell into his lap instead of him constantly dominating Krennic.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

His actual character was just a long string of failures as well. Did he have a single interaction in the movie where he wasn't either humiliated, outplayed, or injured? That tends to put down the threat the villain carries.

Shit, even Loki was introduced in Avengers successfully taking down shield.

Yup! I don't think he gets a single moment of villainous triumph that isn't simultaneously or shortly thereafter kneecapped.

Captures Galen: Gets shot, loses Jyn (who sets in motion events responsible for his death)
Successfully tests weapon: Gets station jacked from him by Tarkin
Punishes Galen: Gets damn near blown up Rebel assault
Visits Vader: Gets chumped, choked, and punned on.

And then Scarif is just a succession of losses until he shoots Cassian down - who survives his attack and puts HIM down.

 

[UltimaPooh]

It's so profoundly tedious to see people act like The Hobbit trilogy turned out the way it did because Peter Jackson is a hack. He directed LOTR didn't he?

How about you look into the actual details of The Hobbit's extraordinarily troubled production before going "Oh wow this guy sucks haha"? Like for example the woefully inadequate preproduction time due to Del Toro's exit. (LOTR got 2 years.) Or the fact that scenes had to be written on the day of filming.

Chances are, your favorite movie director would lay a ripe turd in conditions like that.

The Lovely Bones was also not that great of a movie.

I think Jackson still has it... I think one of the things the Hobbit Trilogy suffered was due to it's size in addition to what you posted and Jackson being surrounded by yes people.

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

I realize there are quite a few scenes in the trailers that didn't make it into the movie. "I rebel", Jyn in the TIE pilot outfit, the TIE appearing in front of Jyn, etc.

 

[Always-honest]

Well i was certainly entertained.

 

[Freewheelin']

The line reading where he so casually remarks Lyra is back from the dead is great. He needed to be that presence throughout instead of being overshadowed by Tarkin.

That shot in the trailer of him walking across Scarif after the war is great because it suggests he actually gets involved with shit and treats it with such nonchalance. I liked him actually taking it upon himself to take shots at Jyn and Cassian.

 

[ShadowKingpin]

Just finished the movie. Absolutely phenomenal film. Hands down one of my absolute favorites in the franchise.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Just saw it, good flick. Showed just how fragile the alliance is, and just how far various factions are willing to go to fight it.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I'll be seeing this again soon, but I've been thinking about how arbitrarily the characters were used in the climax. We didn't see their character or skill sets come together in a compelling way to overcome all odds. It could have been ANYONE dying while trying to plug a cord in. Or toggle a switch. I think it was a factor in why their deaths felt so hollow. As was said above, it was plot over character.

The heavy should have gone down while providing cover for the others, get the pilot into a stolen Tie, etc. Those are on the nose examples, but I didn't feel like their actions or fates fell in line with their characters. That's something The Force Awakens got right, where everything that happens on Starkiller was a function of character; Han trying to save Ben, who turns on him. Chewie going postal after his death. Kylo's beef with Finn, who faces his fears to defend his friend. Rey taking up the saber. It all flowed from character, and those moments hit home as a result. In Rogue One, they land on the base and nearly all turned into plot cogs. The only death that flowed from character was the robot, which was why it was the only one I cared about.

 

[KennyLinder]

Saw today and loved it. It's way up there with ANH and ESB for me.

I had a look out for the ace 4 winged Imperial Cargo Shuttle in Lego form but they don't make one That was a cool ship too!

 

[Freewheelin']

I'll be seeing this again soon, but I've been thinking about how arbitrarily the characters were used in the climax. We didn't see their character or skill sets come together in a compelling way to overcome all odds. It could have been ANYONE dying while trying to plug a cord in. Or toggle a switch. I think it was a factor in why their deaths felt so hollow. As was said above, it was plot over character.

The heavy should have gone down while providing cover for the others, get the pilot into a stolen Tie, etc. Those are on the nose examples, but I didn't feel like their actions or fates fell in line with their characters. That's something The Force Awakens got right, where everything that happens on Starkiller was a function of character; Han trying to save Ben, who turns on him. Kylo's beef with Finn, who faces his fears to defend his friend. Rey taking up the saber. It all flowed from character, and those moments hit home as a result. In Rogue One, they land on the base and nearly all turned into plot cogs. The only death that flowed from character was the robot, which was why it was the only one I cared about.

Yep, fully agreed. Chirrut's was close, but even then his actual death was separate from his character.

I've just read Film Crit Hulk's article - bit too long and unwieldy as usual, but some of it really echoes my own long and unwieldy post, weird enough - and he suggests Chirrut should have pulled the lever with the Force. That would have worked on a similar level to your Bodhi in a TIE, for instance.

 

[CosmicQueso]

It could have been ANYONE dying while trying to plug a cord in. Or toggle a switch. I think it was a factor in why their deaths felt so hollow. As was said above, it was plot over character.

I think that's exactly what made the film so great. Too often, the Star Wars universe is just so perfectly aligned in the ways you mention. Everything happening in very specific ways that fit like puzzle pieces. But here, we get a sense that the universe is still a messy place where people get killed in ways that are tragic or seem chaotic and even wasteful. It makes these characters easier to relate to. These characters, no matter how skilled or talented or strong, are still just fodder to feed the meat grinder of the war that's taking place.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

he suggests Chirrut should have pulled the lever with the Force. That would have worked on a similar level to your Bodhi in a TIE, for instance.

That would have fucked his character, not enhanced it.

There was a whole run on that earlier in the thread, actually.

(as an aside: Did Hulk stick to dropping his ridiculous fucking gimmick, or did he go back to it after a couple post-Faraci articles)

 

[Levito]

I can't believe I'm going to say this but I think the battle at the end is way better than the one at the end of Return of the Jedi. Aside from the fantastic stuff between Luke/Vader/Palpatine, the steaks feel higher in Rogue One. When you look back on it, there was no way the Rebels were going to win the battle, they were in it to *just* squeak away with the Death Star plans.


Also, you know, The Empire not getting starched by teddie bears is good too.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

For all the talk about the film needing character development, sounds like some of you wanted a 4 hour movie with a powerpoint to go with it.

I enjoyed the film for being a big dumb Star Wars film, enjoying the Catalyst book even more.

Running time has nothing at all to do with effective character development.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I can't believe I'm going to say this but I think the battle at the end is way better than the one at the end of Return of the Jedi. Aside from the fantastic stuff between Luke/Vader/Palpatine, the steaks feel higher in Rogue One. When you look back on it, there was no way the Rebels were going to win the battle, they were in it to *just* squeak away with the Death Star plans.


Also, you know, The Empire not getting starched by teddie bears is good too.

Oh, most definitely. The true ending to ROTJ was Luke vs Vader. The ewok stuff is never not embarrassing and it kind of lowers my opinion of the movie as a result by how tonally fucked up it is

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

I'll be seeing this again soon, but I've been thinking about how arbitrarily the characters were used in the climax. We didn't see their character or skill sets come together in a compelling way to overcome all odds. It could have been ANYONE dying while trying to plug a cord in. Or toggle a switch. I think it was a factor in why their deaths felt so hollow. As was said above, it was plot over character.

The heavy should have gone down while providing cover for the others, get the pilot into a stolen Tie, etc. Those are on the nose examples, but I didn't feel like their actions or fates fell in line with their characters. That's something The Force Awakens got right, where everything that happens on Starkiller was a function of character; Han trying to save Ben, who turns on him. Chewie going postal after his death. Kylo's beef with Finn, who faces his fears to defend his friend. Rey taking up the saber. It all flowed from character, and those moments hit home as a result. In Rogue One, they land on the base and nearly all turned into plot cogs. The only death that flowed from character was the robot, which was why it was the only one I cared about.

Pretty much agree. As I've said a few times in this thread, this was not the story I expected. I was thinking that this would be a carefully orchestrated commando raid to steal the plans to the Death Star, which would have made it a true heist film. Instead, we got a bunch of semi-developed characters who were sent out as fodder without really using their skills and traits. I wanted a more intricate plot where these particular commandos were put together because the possessed a particular set of skills that would have allowed them to break into a heavily-fortified Imperial stronghold on Coruscant (doesn't make sense that this archive is elsewhere really) to pull of the theft against long odds. What we got here, was "well, lets go steal the plans! Don't worry, we'll wing-it!" which ended up not allowing the characters do develop too much.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I can't believe I'm going to say this but I think the battle at the end is way better than the one at the end of Return of the Jedi.

It is.

 

[Surfinn]

I still think ROTJ has the best space battle overall.

And ANH's is much more emotionally engaging.

But visually.. R1 is pretty damn impressive.

 

[Bronx-Man]

I can't believe someone would prefer a movie as generic, mediocre, and bland as TFA to Rogue One. I guess that's what the people want these days.

 

[-griffy-]

Here's io9 with: A Comprehensive Guide to the Worst Rogue One Takes on the Internet

 

[tmdorsey]

I have a quick question. For some reason I remember there was a scene in ANH right before they start discussing the plan to attack the Death Star where the lady (Senator) talks about how many people died to get the plans. After seeing RO, my wife and I rewatched ANH (SE edition) and the scene wasn't there. Does anyone else remember the scene I'm talking about? Was it a victim to Lucas unnecessary edits for the SE edition? That line and scene is much more impactful after Rogue One.

 

[Lifejumper]

I can't believe someone would prefer a movie as generic, mediocre, and bland as TFA to Rogue One. I guess that's what the people want these days.

People that prefer a strong sense of character drama? I enjoyed r1 but I think TFA is the better crafted movie.

 

[-griffy-]

I have a quick question. For some reason I remember there was a scene in ANH right before they start discussing the plan to attack the Death Star where the lady (Senator) talks about how many people died to get the plans. After seeing RO, my wife and I rewatched ANH (SE edition) and the scene wasn't there. Does anyone else remember the scene I'm talking about? Was it a victim to Lucas unnecessary edits for the SE edition? That line and scene is much more impactful after Rogue One.

You're probably thinking of Return of the Jedi, where Mon Mothma mentions that many Bothans died to bring the information about the second Death Star.

 

[Fisty]

Yep, fully agreed. Chirrut's was close, but even then his actual death was separate from his character.

I've just read Film Crit Hulk's article - bit too long and unwieldy as usual, but some of it really echoes my own long and unwieldy post, weird enough - and he suggests Chirrut should have pulled the lever with the Force. That would have worked on a similar level to your Bodhi in a TIE, for instance.

I expected him to like "bend" blaster fire around him like a force shield, the fact that he didn't even really do anything force-related rang kind of hollow for the time the film takes place in. Seeing the light side of the Force in a time that people didnt even belive in it and Baze witnessing it firsthand would have been thematically relevant and provided one hell of a moment. But... nothing. Flip a switch and get exploded. Shoot a couple of extraneous goons, get exploded.

 

[-griffy-]

People still missing what the Force is.

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

If Krennic landed closer, Jyn wouldn't have had enough time to run and hide.

 

[Freewheelin']

That would have fucked his character, not enhanced it.

There was a whole run on that earlier in the thread, actually.

(as an aside: Did Hulk stick to dropping his ridiculous fucking gimmick, or did he go back to it after a couple post-Faraci articles)

Ah, missed that. I think it would have been alright, tbh. Shot after shot missing him semi-came off as typical stormtrooper ineptness.

And no, he's back to caps.

 

[Surfinn]

I can't believe someone would prefer a movie as generic, mediocre, and bland as TFA to Rogue One. I guess that's what the people want these days.

Just watched TFA yesterday. It's still a much better film overall and more interesting because its story is firmly centered around its characters. Had everyone lived, I'd be MUCH more inclined to see another film about the struggles of Rey, Finn, Poe and Ren.

But I still enjoyed R1. Going to see it for a third time again soon.

 

[Ishida]

People still missing what the Force is.

Agreed.

Here it is.

 

[Levito]

I even think the Rogue One battle is better at showing how much more mighty the Empire is than the Rebellion, and it makes it all the more impressive when the Rebels score a victory. Like when they used the hammerhead to slam the two star destroyers together. It felt like a makeshift "Ok this is kinda crazy but fuck it we have no choice" kind of thing.

Oh, most definitely. The true ending to ROTJ was Luke vs Vader. The ewok stuff is never not embarrassing and it kind of lowers my opinion of the movie as a result by how tonally fucked up it is

Yeah all the great stuff with in the Emperor's throne room is interrupted by AT-ST's slipping on banana peals. lol

 

[Anth0ny]

I can't believe someone would prefer a movie as generic, mediocre, and bland as TFA to Rogue One. I guess that's what the people want these days.

Rogue One is the very definition of generic, mediocre and bland. A bunch of nothing characters and basic ass plot set to the backdrop of one of the greatest and most influential movies of all time.

And I liked RO! It looked very pretty and that third act was fun but come on.

TFA very closely follows the structure of said influential movie, but it's still awesome, memorable and has likeable characters. No one is going to remember Guy McAccent or the daughter of the guy who created the weak point in the death star.

I know you're not alone though, Bronx. You're not a fan of TFA and how it's very similar to A New Hope, so Rogue One, which tries something different, appeals to you. I'm seeing this sentiment a lot.


I liked both though so ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[Freewheelin']

I can't believe someone would prefer a movie as generic, mediocre, and bland as TFA to Rogue One. I guess that's what the people want these days.

I think the characters in this were generic, mediocre and bland comparatively to TFA. Suppose that's why.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I think that's exactly what made the film so great. Too often, the Star Wars universe is just so perfectly aligned in the ways you mention. Everything happening in very specific ways that fit like puzzle pieces. But here, we get a sense that the universe is still a messy place where people get killed in ways that are tragic or seem chaotic and even wasteful. It makes these characters easier to relate to. These characters, no matter how skilled or talented or strong, are still just fodder to feed the meat grinder of the war that's taking place.

Right, but they can balance their individual insignificance against decision making that advances or flows from their characters. That's what the film failed to do. Also, they assembled the motley crew then didn't really show them leverage their strengths in the finale. That's not a movie thing, it's how their plan should have been put together. Here are the people and skills we have - how do we best deploy them to up our odds of success?

Instead we get drawn out sequences of trying to plug in a cord or toggle a lever. But as a MOVIE, did anyone come out thinking how great it was that the pilot got to....plug in that cord before he died?

Yep, fully agreed. Chirrut's was close, but even then his actual death was separate from his character.

I've just read Film Crit Hulk's article - bit too long and unwieldy as usual, but some of it really echoes my own long and unwieldy post, weird enough - and he suggests Chirrut should have pulled the lever with the Force. That would have worked on a similar level to your Bodhi in a TIE, for instance.

That would have been GREAT.

 

[Surfinn]

Rogue One is the very definition of generic, mediocre and bland. A bunch of nothing characters and basic ass plot set to the backdrop of one of the greatest and most influential movies of all time.

And I liked RO! It looked very pretty and that third act was fun but come on.

TFA very closely follows the structure of said influential movie, but it's still awesome, memorable and has likeable characters. No one is going to remember Guy McAccent or the daughter of the guy who created the weak point in the death star.

This is where I'm at. Fun movie but largely forgettable. I think about TFA all the time and where the next film might take the characters.

I mean you can argue that TFA was set up around a trilogy, but that would excuse R1 for failing to engage us with its characters. I've seen plenty of one off films with fantastic and emotionally engaging characters.

 

[Levito]

TFA has Rey, Fin, Poe, and Kylo--4 excellent new characters. It's not a surprise AT ALL why people would prefer that film.


Rogue One was awesome, but TFA was a much better film due to its characters imo. I can't even remember the names of most of the characters in Rogue One.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

People still missing what the Force is.

I think there's the assumption that every force believer is a Jedi and is capable of doing crazy things with the force. I always saw it as Jedi's were force believers/practitioners who were trained as warriors. Whereas the two in this movie are what I imagine the vast majority of people who were either too old or didn't cut it with training, ended up doing. Like had Qui Gon not decided to go against the Jedi council, Anakin would have probably been some sort of force monk

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Instead we get drawn out sequences of trying to plug in a cord or toggle a lever. But as a MOVIE, did anyone come out thinking how great it was that the pilot got to....plug in that cord before he died?

The Pilot isn't really "the pilot" at any point in the movie though. His skills as a pilot are less important than his status as a defector. His familiarity with the Empire means more than his ability to fly anything. So him knowing what has to be flipped, and knowing how to set everything up so that he can get the message out fits just fine with what little there is of his character in the film, and Riz Ahmed manages to imbue that sketch with enough personality.

The goal is to get the plans out. They all have parts of that goal they have to attain. They fulfill their part in that plan, and they find their peace afterwards. That's part of the emotional punch of the film, really: These frantic, fucked-up nobodies finally get to rest after doing their part.

That doesn't really happen in Star Wars films at all.

and a hypothetical where Chirrut is actively manipulating the Force at the end completely breaks his character. It's a bad call, and for as overwritten, wordy, and desperately in need of an editor as Hulk is, usually his core ideas are good. That's a shit one.

 

[-griffy-]

Instead we get drawn out sequences of trying to plug in a cord or toggle a lever. But as a MOVIE, did anyone come out thinking how great it was that the pilot got to....plug in that cord before he died?

I was more thinking that it was nice that each character got to do one thing that mattered, that any individual failing would have ruined the entire mission, and each found a purpose and comfort in accomplishing that task and feeling like they mattered before their end (and more importantly justified or righted any terrible things they had to do to get to that point). The actual tasks themselves didn't matter as much as what it meant for the characters to do them. It could have been better obviously, but it still worked for me.

 

[Bronx-Man]

Io9's article on the worst Rogue One takes invloves this, and jesus christ

And speaking of narrative laziness, there is no more lazy an action movie crutch than minor characters bravely committing suicide to sacrifice themselves for the major ones. There’s so much heroic suicide in Rogue Onethat it almost feels like ISIS propaganda. Just replace “the Force is with me” with “Allahu Akhbar” and you’re there (if you’re groaning at this, just wait until the “The Empire Is Trump!” thinkpieces hit). These characters suicide with such small provocation that you get the sense that someone would self immolate just to keep Jyn’s coffee warm

Like what in the fuck is this?

 

[Freewheelin']

I thought Ahmed was great, by the way. Really stood out second time around. Does so much with so little.

 

[GhaleonEB]

It is.

Yup. And I'll add, it's not even close.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I was more thinking that it was nice that each character got to do one thing that mattered, that any individual failing would have ruined the entire mission, and each found a purpose and comfort in accomplishing that task and feeling like they mattered before their end (and more importantly justified or righted any terrible things they had to do to get to that point). The actual tasks themselves didn't matter as much as what it meant for the characters to do them. It could have been better obviously, but it still worked for me.

Yeah, I agree with this very much.

Like what in the fuck is this?

Holy shit who fuckin' wrote that.

 

[Surfinn]

Io9's article on the worst Rogue One takes invloves this, and jesus christ



Like what in the fuck is this?

Lol what am I reading..

 

[Boem]

Io9's article on the worst Rogue One takes invloves this, and jesus christ



Like what in the fuck is this?

Jesus christ. That post is just making me angry.

Edit: That quote, not your post.