How does it not? it costs over a million dollars to execute someone on death row. There are innocent people on death row (conservative estimate of 4.1% https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent), It only costs maybe $20,000 for the surgery.
California Funds First Prisoner Sex-Reassignment Surgery and Move to Women's Prison
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How does it not? it costs over a million dollars to execute someone on death row. There are innocent people on death row (conservative estimate of 4.1% https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent), It only costs maybe $20,000 for the surgery.
Da-Kid
Member
Except that's not what the other person is arguing. They're talking about rightfully convicted criminals. Not innocent. It's all just a way to make someone's viewpoint flawed while making yours right.
A Link to the Past
Banned
No, this is my question. Would you be okay with the denial of SRS to a person who ultimately was found to have been wrongfully convicted?
excelsiorlef
Member
Umm once in prison guilty or actually innocent means fuck all in terms of how you will be treated. Both will be treated the same
Jacksinthe
Banned
No shit, sherlock. I swung first.
I swung first because you took a high horse position talking down on people for speaking for trans people then YOU went on to speak for trans people. That's called being a hypocrite. Surely you can see that. It's plain as day.
Then YOU jumped on me because you didn't say what you wanted to say.
Not my problem.
You write your own posts and don't get to hide behind what you DON'T say as a defense.
I can't read your mind. You and everyone else need to understand that.
That's it.
Don't like it? I don't care. You pulled a dick move attacking me over shit I didn't know because you didn't write it. You didn't. So I couldn't know. Not my problem. End of the fucking story, bud.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I apologize for forcing you to make your first reply in a rude fashion.
loaf of bread
Member
I get that tensions are high in here but its objectively not a lifesaving procedure.
Yes it is a procedure that people that identify as a different gender need for their mental health but identifying as a different gender is not a life-threatening illness.
If it was a lifesaving procedure that would mean that they would die without it.
excelsiorlef
Member
Trans suicide rates are astronomical especially amongst those who go untreated.
GurgleBot20
Member
People in this thread have repeatly made arguments as to why it's a lifesaving procedure. Throwing the word objectively out there doesn't do much to diminish them.
chillybright
Banned
He didn't provide any source for innocent execution numbers. Besides, that source was from 1992. What was the cost for GRS back then or execution cost now?
No.
First of all, he didn't provide your link, so my point stands.
Secondly, the article you linked is national data. They were arguing about Texas.
I am not arguing against his claim. All I said was his source isn't sufficient for his claim at all.
see akidoka's post for innocent statistic
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyph...-real-cost-of-the-death-penalty/#e29b9094563c this article claims costs of a death pentaly case are 3x the amount of a non-death one (in maryland) but I doubt texas has a streamlined, cost effective method. if we just go by inflation, the cost has gotten to just under 4 million
7DollarHagane
Banned
These costs are legislative and administrative, having to do with appeals and re-appeals of the sentence before it is carried out.
Those millions are going to judges, attorneys, and hundreds of other people involved in the legal process.
The process of putting someone to death is lengthy and complicated but it probably should be. And it's not at all related to expenditures for what some people would see as a cosmetic or optional procedure, whether that's true or not.
I get that people are sensitive to this issue but for a lot of people this sounds about as absurd as an inmate needing 20k plastic surgery to fix their nose they hate so much that they will kill themselves if they don't get it fixed. That's a dumb example but not everyone in this country agrees that it's a vital procedure.
excelsiorlef
Member
It is a good thing then that this is not a popularity decision but a medical one made by medical professionals.
Some people also think a lot of false things doesn't mean we humour them.
7DollarHagane
Banned
So then how do you prove it? What lab test or measurement shows this to be fact? The people who are skeptical of this claim won't be swayed simply by being told they are wrong.
I personally have no idea because it's not my own personal situation or judgement to make. But it seems to me like the kind of personal freedom or right you lose when you are convicted of murder. It doesn't prevent your heart from beating or your lungs from working. It sounds like psychiatric help will be necessary but that's almost certainly the case for a convicted murderer no matter what.
Prison does take rights away, but it is not "about" taking rights away. It is a function of having the right to freely move about society being taken away. Prison, ideally, should be about rehabilitation and access to needed mental health services like counseling. There's no reason why prison should be some inhumane torturous place or punitive punishment. Otherwise it's just a recidivism factory.
excelsiorlef
Member
The treatment for trans folk is GRS, what do you mean how do I prove it?
How do you prove most mental disorders? Through mental health practitioners who make a diagnosis.
Psychiatric care is how you begin and then after two professionals sign off surgery is the next step... it's literally the treatment for the issue at hand.
Medical care is medical care.
Surgery that is essential to helping a trans individuals life (not that every trans person even wants SRS mind you, and having it or not doesn't make one more or any less trans) is vastly different from something cosmetic like a fix to someone's nose because they just feel like it.
I don't care what social conservatives "feel" about this. Facts and the medical community are on the trans communities side here. I mean, denying trans individuals surgery that they want/comparing it to a person wanting a simple cosmetic job because they just want it is kinda a reckless night and day comparison. It contributes to the struggle trans individuals face when you try to deny them the healthcare they need. It sure as hell doesn't help suicide rates for that matter to live in a country that tries to justify this. Not to mention all of the other more actively hateful laws against us. But, hey, what do I know, right? Clearly you are more versed on this subject than literally everyone in the medical field/trans individuals.
The disturbing thing about this topic is the underlying notion by many that surgery for trans individuals is merely for cosmetic reasons.
This thread is certainly eye opening. I think it helps if you stop thinking of GRS as cosmetic surgery and start thinking of it as corrective surgery.
We don't live in an eye for an eye society.
We don't live in an eye for an eye society.
cartographer
Member
Fortunately we live in a time where the people that matter in this case didn't agree with you.
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
Just because someone is in prison doesn't mean they aren't still a human being.
A prisoner could probably survive on like a bowl of oatmeal a day, so I guess taxpayer dollars shouldn't be spent on more than that since it's not a life or death situation.
A prisoner could probably survive on like a bowl of oatmeal a day, so I guess taxpayer dollars shouldn't be spent on more than that since it's not a life or death situation.
This.
The case simply shows how liberal America doesn' have its priorities in check.
On Topic, should the lady have the surgery? Yes
Should the tax payers be footing the bill (regardless of the costs)? No
QuantumSquid
Member
Sorry but I don't care if a murderer has gender dysphoria. Monsters don't deserve sympathy. Taxpayers should not have to pay for this.
(Let me be clear: monster because murderer, NOT because transgender)
(Let me be clear: monster because murderer, NOT because transgender)
excelsiorlef
Member
She's in prison... only option is the government, that's literally how it works
excelsiorlef
Member
What about other health care like drugs and treatment for say bipolar, or hypothyroidism?
excelsiorlef
Member
And for other medical treatments as well?
Or is it just trans health that is frivolous?
excelsiorlef
Member
And I am asking do you expect donations and family to pay for all health related things...
Government provides health care for prisoners, that's the system.
I don't expect anything. What the hell are you talking about?
excelsiorlef
Member
I am talking about the fact that government provides health care to prisoners because that's the only way they can get it.
And you replied with donations and family as if that's actually a viable alternative...
Relying on family and donations is not actually an alternative way to fund health care for prisoners.
You said that it is their only option, I am suggesting that it isn't regardless of how viable you view it, that's it. You're arguing against something I am not even saying.
Luckily "a lot of people" don't get to decide what is or isn't medically necessary.
States shouldn't be killing people that are in their custody. There shouldn't be a process at all.
and I don't give a shit about what other people think about this. just shrugging and letting the course of justice guide itself is just letting those who put in the effort to torture people get their way
what else should we not pay for with prisoners? antibiotics? flu shots? nutrition?
Well, d'oh?! How can anyone know how certain things in the future will play out? Can you see the future? No Sherlock!
excelsiorlef
Member
Donations and family is not actually an alternative....
An alternative needs to be viable.
Would you like to argue it is viable?
lot of people asking me about my third eye in this thread.
Why is it not viable? With the absurd shit that gets funded online these days I find it hard to believe she wouldn't be able to get her lawyer or a family member to set up a page requesting donations for something that is pretty reasonable.
Maybe you should get that checked or removed.
Because you shouldn't have to rely on begging to get an operation that most of the medical community agrees you need, if you need it.
excelsiorlef
Member
So now you are arguing it is viable, excellent, here is my next question, do you propose this donations/family system for all health care matters for every prisoner?
Soapbox Killer
Grand Nagus
I find spending this kinda coin on a convicted murderer to be misguided at best and a flat out tragedy of democracy at its worst.
I come from a place where there are a number of wrongly convicted (mostly black) prisoners. I also think that the prison system has become more about investments in funding 401k than actually reforming criminals. So believe me when I say there is no love lost for the "system.
Everyone believes their cause is more important than someone elses. The very nature of a "cause" is that is resonates more with one than the next so I know there are some very passionate people who fight for this type of cause. I want to show respect for those people. Spending tax payer money on something like this is akin to the taxpayer money going to a church that feeds the homeless. Not a perfect analogy but I hope this gives an idea to those who champion the governments involvement. For me this just doesn't pass the smell test. A lot of this has to do with if this murderer has admitted to the crime which in itself could cause more people to be against this type of medical care.
I really wish the government would delegate this to the private sector and not get directly involved. I hope I don't sound too insensitive.
I come from a place where there are a number of wrongly convicted (mostly black) prisoners. I also think that the prison system has become more about investments in funding 401k than actually reforming criminals. So believe me when I say there is no love lost for the "system.
Everyone believes their cause is more important than someone elses. The very nature of a "cause" is that is resonates more with one than the next so I know there are some very passionate people who fight for this type of cause. I want to show respect for those people. Spending tax payer money on something like this is akin to the taxpayer money going to a church that feeds the homeless. Not a perfect analogy but I hope this gives an idea to those who champion the governments involvement. For me this just doesn't pass the smell test. A lot of this has to do with if this murderer has admitted to the crime which in itself could cause more people to be against this type of medical care.
I really wish the government would delegate this to the private sector and not get directly involved. I hope I don't sound too insensitive.
I don't propose anything. Again, you are arguing against someone that doesn't exist.
Edit: Or rather this person probably exists, but this person is not me.
Ok?
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
Everything that is optional is frivolous.
excelsiorlef
Member
You didn't reply to me arguing that prisoners only source for healh care is the government by saying the alternative is family/donations? That wasn't you? You didn't then defend it as viable when I argued that it wasn't? That also wasn't you?
So trans care is frivolous? Good to know.
excelsiorlef
Member
Good thing that GRS isn't optional for most trans folk, especially if they need documentation to reflect their gender, beyond just the health needs as well.
All I said was that there are alternatives that were viable. That's it. You are trying to extrapolate this into some argument I did not make, am not making and would not make. I'm not really sure why, but whatever.
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