I'm sorry, which man decided to take a life?
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California Funds First Prisoner Sex-Reassignment Surgery and Move to Women's Prison
- Thread starter Horse Armour
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I'm sorry, which man decided to take a life?
excelsiorlef
Member
She... she. she....I think that sentiment comes from the feeling of need for medical surgery for your body to remain alive physically, and the mental portion not being held at the same level (which I agree for prisoners).
The people calling for this to not be covered are probably not lacking empathy with the people that need the operation to feel functional outside of prison walls, but instead focus on the individual who is benefiting from the procedure, which has already shown he is mentally unstable for more reasons than feeling he is the wrong gender. This given that he committed a crime bad enough to warrant a prison sentence with no parole.
I think choosing to murder eliminates your ability to receive care to the same level as citizens that have made better choices in their lives.
This man decided to take a life. Part of his choice was to forfeit the majority of the benefits that are enjoyed by members or our society.
I am not talking about eye for an eye here.
Woman
Yeah. This is just how the system is built. It sucks. The fact that health care is a product to be packaged and sold is disgusting enough on it's own.As a transgender women, I'm not opposed to her receiving the treatment she needs. Sex reassignment surgery is generally considered medically necessary. It is often the final step towards fully transitioning, and transferring her to a women's prison without completing it could be potentially dangerous.
But... being low income and disabled in other ways, I can't deny it stings that a murderer is going to get the treatment for free when I'll likely have to pay for most of it. :
are you misgendering on purpose
A lot of people have said he in reference to the individual in the OP already. : / Not defending that guy, just saying.
How About No
Member
As a transgender women, I'm not opposed to her receiving the treatment she needs. Sex reassignment surgery is generally considered medically necessary. It is often the final step towards fully transitioning, and transferring her to a women's prison without completing it could be potentially dangerous.
But... being low income and disabled in other ways, I can't deny it stings that a murderer is going to get the treatment for free when I'll likely have to pay for most of it. : \
To be fair she may be getting it for "free" but she's still gonna be stuck in prison forever
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
Says the dude who clearly has no clue about the nature of a fundamental right. If you can violate it for one person, it's no longer universal. You can no longer claim it applies to everyone. The whole socially constructed notion of inalienable human rights collapses. Not too hard to understand.
Like freedom, the fundamental right of SRS is lost once you choose the torture and take the life of another human being IMO.
A lot of people have said he in reference to the individual in the OP already. : / Not defending that guy, just saying.
I'm just wondering if it's intentional, as a means of punishing her, or simple ignorance.
Like freedom, the fundamental right of SRS is lost once you choose the torture and take the life of another human being IMO.
how many other rights should be taken? you've already supported killing her
She.I think choosing to murder eliminates your ability to receive care to the same level as citizens that have made better choices in their lives.
This man decided to take a life. Part of his choice was to forfeit the majority of the benefits that are enjoyed by members or our society.
I am not talking about eye for an eye here.
At least use the proper pro-nouns. And while horrendous shit happens what your saying is actually the opposite of what the prison system is supposed to be, letting someone suffer/die slowly is explicitly against the law since it is cruel and unusual punishment. Everyone is supposed to have basic rights whether you like it or not. Incarceration itself and the limits on you during is the punishment as our founding fathers and justice system wrote it(even if it's not always followed or upheld) your not supposed to lose basic human rights which is what your advocating.
excelsiorlef
Member
Like freedom, the fundamental right of SRS is lost once you choose the torture and take the life of another human being IMO.
And other medical treatment?
Yeah. This is just how the system is built. It sucks. The fact that health care is a product to be packaged and sold is disgusting enough on it's own.
Yeah. That's the crappy part of it all. Not that she's receiving the right treatment, but that we don't have proper health care to ensure all of us transgender folks also get it. Ah well. : \
To be fair she may be getting it for "free" but she's still gonna be stuck in prison forever
Fair point, but it does little to lessen the sting of it all.
But at the end of the day, the real message is that we need better health care.
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
how many other rights should be taken? you've already supported killing her
How do you know she'll die?
Like freedom, the fundamental right of SRS is lost once you choose the torture and take the life of another human being IMO.
And yet you advocate doing the same to her.
How do you know she'll die?
The suicide rate for pre-op trans people is extremely high. At the very least she will live the rest of her life in constant mental anguish.
Imagine if you were trapped in the body of the opposite sex for the rest of your life. Would you wish that on someone?
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Like freedom, the fundamental right of SRS is lost once you choose the torture and take the life of another human being IMO.
It's not simply a right, it is a necessity. A requirement for living.
excelsiorlef
Member
How do you know she'll die?
If she was bipolar would you deny her medication to treat that?
natsuyasumi
Member
But if it's so life threatening, why has she been doing okay for the last thirty seven years? Has she been trying to get this for that long?
I'd laugh if it wouldn't come off as hostile. Most trans people are at the mercy of the free market with private doctors who charge tens of thousands of dollars. That's why it's only a privileged minority of trans folk who can access surgery, many can't afford it. And that fuckin' sucks to have to live with, on top of all the other shit that comes with being trans in a transphobic society/world.
Withholding the surgery would have amounted to cruel and unusual punishment. Getting gender reassignment surgery isn't a trip to the spa or a spot of lipo to tune up your beach bod. It's treatment for a massively traumatic medical issue.
Yep, this.
are you misgendering on purpose
No I am not even considering gender for my comments.
My point has nothing to do with sexual identity at all.
I have zero opinion and have no alignment in the entire gender identity discussion as it is completely alien to me.
I believe people should be happy. I support people doing what they feel is best for themselves and their own pursuit of happiness. Provided those choices to do not threaten the rights of another citizen.
Murder is a choice. A choice that merits punishment to the highest level allowed and should forfeit you the majority of "humane" privileges provided to society.
I honestly believe from some of these posts that quite a few people in here would straight up just let people suffer and die, seems to be an undercurrent of treat all prisoners like animals.If she was bipolar would you deny her medication to treat that?
Edit: Case in point Truelize is literaly advocating for the loss of all rights and regardless of medical condition only allowing them enough medical attention to get to death like elderly or someone in hospice.
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
If she was bipolar would you deny her medication to treat that?
If she was fully recovered would you set her free?
You Are Viewtiful
Member
I'm just wondering if it's intentional, as a means of punishing her, or simple ignorance.
Personally, I accidentally wrote "he" as well in my other post before I corrected it in an edit. I wrote that because that's what everyone else was using. :/
Of course.If she was fully recovered would you set her free?
excelsiorlef
Member
No I am not even considering gender for my comments.
My point has nothing to do with sexual identity at all.
I have zero opinion and have no alignment in the entire gender identity discussion as it is completely alien to me.
What....
If she was fully recovered would you set her free?
What?
I am asking if you would deny her treatment for bipolar disorder in prison, as in medication.
Like freedom, the fundamental right of SRS is lost once you choose the torture and take the life of another human being IMO.
This makes no sense.
What....
If that doesn't make sense of sound right just know that I don't care what your sexual identity is.
If you needed care or help or support in any way I would help you as if you were a member of my family.
He/she's literaly advocating no medical treatment for those convicted of murder regardless of the reason except to ease death. Look at his/her posts I am not making this up.What....
What?
excelsiorlef
Member
If that doesn't make sense of sound right just know that I don't care what your sexual identity is.
If you needed care or help or support in any way I would help you as if you were a member of my family.
Again huh? You called her a man.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Murder is a choice. A choice that merits punishment to the highest level allowed and should forfeit you the majority of "humane" privileges provided to society.
Do you believe life-saving medical treatment is a "privilege"? Because that's what this is. To deprive her of treatment falls squarely under "cruel and unusual punishment".
2 Slice Toaster
Member
Again huh? You called her a man.
He doesn't see gender.
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
He/she's literaly advocating no medical treatment for those convicted of murder regardless of the reason except to ease death. Look at his/her posts I am not making this up.
Never said no medical treatment.
Personally, I accidentally wrote "he" as well in my other post before I corrected it in an edit. I wrote that because that's what everyone else was using. :/
I ain't gonna jump on someone's ass for an honest mistake as long as they realize it
Not you. I was talking about Trulize, sorry if I mixed you up with the multiple quoting. I don't agree with your position either but you were not advocating loss of all rights the other person basically was.Never said no medical treatment.
Y'all do know that not all murders are the same and are some type of inhuman monster right? You
"Ms. Quine and an accomplice kidnapped and fatally shot Shahid Ali Baig, 33, a father of three, in downtown Los Angeles in February 1980, stealing $80 and his car during a drug- and alcohol-fueled rampage."
I'm not sure if this is really a case of extenuating circumstances that forced someone into a life of crime, or a crime of passion. It'd be easier to have sympathy if this was someone that shot an abusive spouse or got a felony-murder conviction....but this was all done pretty willfully.
excelsiorlef
Member
Never said no medical treatment.
You never answered my question about bipolar disorder medication.
I don't really care about the GRS as long as she stays in prison where murderers belong. Would think though that priority should go towards law abiding citizens on the outside.
Well, you did answer their question with a question. What did you expect? lol
You never answered my question about bipolar disorder medication.
Well, you did answer their question with a question. What did you expect? lol
Never said no medical treatment.
You just don't think SRS should count as medical treatment, right? Or at least not severely enough that prisoners should qualify for it?
Haven't you been saying you don't know much about the process, dysphoria, etc.? Yet you know enough to confidently claim it's not something that should be allowed for prisoners? Despite the consensus from the medical community saying, yeah, this shit is important?
"Drug and Alcohol fuel rampage" isn't really willfully I doubt she rational during the event."Ms. Quine and an accomplice kidnapped and fatally shot Shahid Ali Baig, 33, a father of three, in downtown Los Angeles in February 1980, stealing $80 and his car during a drug- and alcohol-fueled rampage."
I'm not sure if this is really a case of extenuating circumstances that forced someone into a life of crime, or a crime of passion. It'd be easier to have sympathy if this was someone that shot an abusive spouse or got a felony-murder conviction....but this was all done pretty willfully.
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
You never answered my question about bipolar disorder medication.
Didn't see. Sorry. Sure, medication is fine. But if she completely recovers mentally should she be set free?
excelsiorlef
Member
Well, you did answer their question with a question. What did you expect? lol
Their answer was something about letting her out of prison, which I never argued, that's not actually an answer to my question so I restated my question.
If people are fully recovered and remorseful for the crime that they committed they absolutely should be on parole.Didn't see. Sorry. Sure, medication is fine. But if she completely recovers mentally should she be set free?
excelsiorlef
Member
Didn't see. Sorry. Sure, medication is fine. But if she completely recovers mentally should she be set free?
So if medication, a treat meant for a disorder is fine, why is surgery a treatment for a disorder not fine? Denying either treatment has the same effect in the end.
Why do you keep asking about letting her out of jail, I am certainly not arguing for her release. I was merely trying to ascertain why trans health is something you think can be denied but treatment for bipolar disorder should not be.
If people are fully recovered and remorseful for the crime that they committed they absolutely should be on parole.
How can recovery and remorse be measured? Wouldn't a murderer just lie? Wouldn't everybody?
excelsiorlef
Member
I propose right here and now that we not start debating if she should be released from prison, that is not germane to the topic at hand at all.
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
So if medication, a treat meant for a disorder is fine, why is surgery a treatment for a disorder not fine? Denying either treatment has the same effect in the end.
Why do you keep asking about letting her out of jail, I am certainly not arguing for her release. I was merely trying to ascertain why trans health is something you think can be denied but treatment for bipolar disorder should not be.
Why do you keep asking me about hypothetical situations? I'm not saying all her access to medical treatment should be denied. But I do not support SRS for this individual. Why? Because of her crime. I don't think I can be any clearer.
Again huh? You called her a man.
Yes I did. I am not going back to edit that because I was not doing it on purpose with some vile intention.
I guess I read that 37 years ago a man was convicted of murder.
So my thought process was on a convicted murderer recieving surgery.
Someone else replied asking if a convict serving a life sentence required a kidney transplant should they be given it.
My opinion is that they should not be entitled to that level of care.
Jokingly I guess I would say it would be totally acceptable as long as their wasn't a single good standing member of society that did not require urgent care and that surgeons were just sitting around with extra organs to spare that it would be fine.
So I was focusing on the discussion regarding what a convicted murderer should be allowed to receive as far as medical care goes.
I can not relate even one tiny bit to the challenges that someone with sexual identity issues lives with. Therefore I have no interest in throwing an ignorant opinion out there about those challenges.
I care about people. I believe we all have the right to happiness. Do what you need to do to be happy.
But I have an emotionally attached opinion about the rights of convicted murderers and people that attempt murder.
For my experience most people who kill people are very very remorseful for the crime they done. And given how long it takes you will have to be the greatest liar of all timeHow can recovery and remorse be measured? Wouldn't a murderer just lie? Wouldn't everybody?
Just to be clear. GRS is not a sign of forgiveness or annulment of her crimes. I'm glad she's in prison. But our prisons shouldn't be torture pits.
Also, our society outside of prisons should be better. Way way better. No transgender person should be denied any medical treatment due to costs. No one should be denied medical treatment period.
Also, our society outside of prisons should be better. Way way better. No transgender person should be denied any medical treatment due to costs. No one should be denied medical treatment period.
You have to go through quite a bit not only professional opinions but a parole board and victims can testify for or against and judges can still stop it.How can recovery and remorse be measured? Wouldn't a murderer just lie? Wouldn't everybody?
It's not like you just say "I'm better" and they let you out it's a review process and lots of times at least for serious crime has multiple tries before parole is granted, if ever.
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