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[GurgleBot20]

Yes, I'm against a convicted murderer is getting something I feel isn't necessary for them to live. Why should I care about the mental anguish you suffer when there's other prisoners literally going insane in a cell?

This is literally a surgery to fix a person from going insane.

 

[slit]

I hate this fallacy people always feel the need to do. Which is "If you feel X isn't necessary then you feel the whole damn alphabet isn't either" it's infuriating.

Yes, I'm against a convicted murderer is getting something I feel isn't necessary for them to live. Why should I care about the mental anguish you suffer when there's other prisoners literally going insane in a cell? Why is this extreme more significant than the other? I wonder if you're even sorry about killing someone or so concerned about your mental health that it's all you care about. Never mind the mental trauma you caused someone's family.

Yeah, I'm speaking with my emotions.

The only part of your post that made sense. You're all over the place here.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I hate this fallacy people always feel the need to do. Which is "If you feel X isn't necessary then you feel the whole damn alphabet isn't either" it's infuriating.

Yes, I'm against a convicted murderer is getting something I feel isn't necessary for them to live. Why should I care about the mental anguish you suffer when there's other prisoners literally going insane in a cell? Why is this extreme more significant than the other? I wonder if you're even sorry about killing someone or so concerned about your mental health that it's all you care about. Never mind the mental trauma you caused someone's family.

Yeah, I'm speaking with my emotions.

GRS is necessary, it is the treatment...

This is medical fact.

 

[Opto]

And that is also i humane treatment that needs to be fixed.

These comparisons are crazy though, the emphasis should be on improving and fixing things not breaking more shit so everything is equally as bad.

It's the american way. If it's not "fuck you, got mine" it's "fuck you, don't got mine, i'm taking yours away"

 

[i3allistic]

You didn't answer my question. Should all money be withheld?

sure why not, if your not good useful to society why fund ...there to many fucking problem in the world ...

 

[Vilix]

The state that uses even more tax dollars to execute people?

You mean execute people who killed innocent people? Yeah, I don't see a real problem with it.

 

[Matty77]

Why are people ignoring the comments that say this costs taxpayers pennies at most and also the ones that say SRS is covered by Medicare for citizens in CA?

Because they don't actually care about those things, it's just so they can justify being inhumane to prisoners and/or trans people. "It's not hate it's taxes, what about people not in prison".

Any time "what about" gets dredged up you know some kind of shady deflection is going on it's a phrase that belongs in the overused poor excuse bin right next to "I'm not racist but".

 

[Jacksinthe]

Wow it's always straight to the diction when you have nothing else to go on, huh. Maybe don't think anyone who identifies as trans wants to be so open about it, especially in a thread where people are openly questioning the validity of a procedure that benefits their mental health

I'm calling someone out for telling people to not speak for trans people then goes on to speak for trans people.

It's called "hypocrisy" what I was calling out.

Anything else is not my problem.

Let me make sure you get this: someone else's issues are not mine. If I have to tiptoe around people because they are dealing with something I am not aware of - that's not my problem. At all. I'm not privy to everyone's private lives. I called out hypocrisy and yes, it did cross my mind, but the verbiage is what Link chose to use. NOT ME.

If you want to have an honest discussion, you should speak honestly, right? I can only take what a poster says at face value because all I can do is read. I can't see body language. Hear inflection in someone's voice. See them shift in their chairs as they type.

I'm not clairvoyant. Are you? Do you know? Do you have a crystal ball? Should everyone get one?

I called out hypocrisy based on what and how it was written. Anything OUTSIDE of that is not my problem. It really isn't.

Get over it.

 

[Abstrusity]

Accuses someone of speaking for trans people

Didn't consider that the person being accused was trans and was speaking from her own experiences and literally did the thing they were mocking someone for doing

thisisneogaf.gif

To be fair, I don't think we're /all/ in agreement over it, either.

I can certainly see a few arguments against doing so -- it's politically untenable, for instance. This is free ammunition to use against Jerry Brown's administration when it comes time for re-election. Free dogwhistle propaganda to rally around, same with HB2. So it's a case with no winner. You can refuse to do it and sacrifice basic rights and responsibilities of your prisoner and your state, or you can paint a target on your back like Merkel did by absorbing so many refugees.

Merkel stood up straight and proclaimed that it's still the right thing to do. No matter the political cost.

Then you have the healthcare argument, where it shouldn't be the case that prisoners get free healthcare but everyone else has to pay their own way. They can't afford it, but the criminals get it for free? Rabble rabble. A little propaganda at play, here -- criminals don't deserve rights -- echoed throughout the thread. But the last time I checked, they were human, and should enjoy human rights. So what about everyone else? Well, that's what medicare and medicaid are for, but if you make too much for access, you're SOL. Rather than blaming your state, you should be blaming your Congress for that. ...But it's California, and they have an underdsized amount of influence with regards to their population.

It's still the right thing to do. Also, #antifa

Then there's a tax argument. Most people don't really get taxes anywhere beyond a surface level. The numbers are big because the numbers of people are big. To that end, people see surgery, see how much it costs for surgery, and innately start thinking of paying the entire thing themselves with ALL of the taxes they pay...as if THEY paid for it directly, personally. They did not. This argument holds no water because ultimately, you are paying taxes mostly to a general fund, and the state of California was afforded the rights and responsibilities to give care to its prisoners, at a time when healthcare was available to all and cheap enough to trade sticks and pebbles for.

Still the right thing to do.

Then you have sociopath argument. Prisoners do not deserve rights, that's why they're prisoners. And have no rights. So fuck 'em.

It's still the right thing to do.

No single person can speak for the entire group without being asked to by everyone. Some transpeople here may disagree with California's decision, but I think we do agree, for the most part.

 

[Opto]

sure why not, if your not good useful to society why fund ...there to many fucking problem in the world ...

So what do we do with the criminals if there's no money to fund their imprisonment? Just hunt them down? cover their heads in masking tape, execute them in some street justice?

 

[slit]

sure why not, if your not good useful to society why fund ...there to many fucking problem in the world ...

Wow, do you know the can of worms an attitude like that opens? Think before you post.

 

[GurgleBot20]

You mean execute people who killed innocent people? Yeah, I don't see a real problem with it.

I'm sure more of your tax dollars went towards executing innocent people, than the people of California's will go towards this one surgery.

Because they don't actually care about those things, it's just so they can justify being inhumane to prisoners and/or trans people. "It's not hate it's taxes, what about people not in prison".

Any time "what about" gets dredged up you know some kind of shady deflection is going on it's a phrase that belongs in the overused poor excuse bin right next to "I'm not racist but".

You're exactly right.

 

[Vilix]

I'm sure more of your tax dollars went towards executing innocent people, than the people of California's will go towards this one surgery.

Got facts to back that up?

 

[Team Alucard]

That would be the sticker price, but surely the negotiated rate is well below that for a 170k person pool. (administered by Health Net, looks like)

Most people are paying the sticker price because with the exception of a handful of state medicaid systems SRS is not covered by insurance. The vast majority of private insurers do not cover anything trans-related at all, even therapy and medication are denied.

 

[i3allistic]

So what do we do with the criminals if there's no money to fund their imprisonment? Just hunt them down? cover their heads in masking tape, execute them in some street justice?

sent them to middle east to dig up mines, or Cambodia / Vietnam

 

[chillybright]

I hate this fallacy people always feel the need to do. Which is "If you feel X isn't necessary then you feel the whole damn alphabet isn't either" it's infuriating.

Yes, I'm against a convicted murderer is getting something I feel isn't necessary for them to live. Why should I care about the mental anguish you suffer when there's other prisoners literally going insane in a cell? Why is this extreme more significant than the other? I wonder if you're even sorry about killing someone or so concerned about your mental health that it's all you care about. Never mind the mental trauma you caused someone's family.

Yeah, I'm speaking with my emotions.

Thread is full of slippery slopes. If you somehow feel this is wrong you are apparently transphobic and wanna all prisoners starve to death.

 

[Opto]

sent them to middle east to dig up mines, or Cambodia / Vietnam

so slave labor

 

[No Love]

You guys might want to take into account that it's presumably one murder, and it's been 36 years since then. In terms of 'has the debt been sufficiently paid to warrant providing a service' the answer would be 'yes'.

You are all very bloodthirsty, when in reality this crime should probably not be a life sentence to begin with. It wouldn't be in most places, actually.

Really? Taking ALL of someone's years away from them can be marginalized and given a numerical value so easily?

 

[MUnited83]

You mean execute people who killed innocent people? Yeah, I don't see a real problem with it.

seems to be working wonders over there

Spoiler

not really

Got facts to back that up?

Basic fucking math? I guarantee you that more of your cents were gone to execute innocent people than you would pay for one single surgery. That's just basic maths and percentages.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'm calling someone out for telling people to not speak for trans people then goes on to speak for trans people.

It's called "hypocrisy" what I was calling out.

Anything else is not my problem.

Let me make sure you get this: someone else's issues are not mine. If I have to tiptoe around people because they are dealing with something I am not aware of - that's not my problem. At all. I'm not privy to everyone's private lives. I called out hypocrisy and yes, it did cross my mind, but the verbiage is what Link chose to use. NOT ME.

If you want to have an honest discussion, you should speak honestly, right? I can only take what a poster says at face value because all I can do is read. I can't see body language. Hear inflection in someone's voice. See them shift in their chairs as they type.

I'm not clairvoyant. Are you? Do you know? Do you have a crystal ball? Should everyone get one?

I called out hypocrisy based on what and how it was written. Anything OUTSIDE of that is not my problem. It really isn't.

Get over it.

You made an assumption as to someone speaking for other people, called someone potentially a troll because you did not consider that they did not want to wear their identity on their sleeves.

A crystal ball is not necessary in order to avoid making a direct accusation and smugly using a meme. It's called having the good sense to not make direct accusations based on an assumption.

sent them to middle east to dig up mines, or Cambodia / Vietnam

So you feel that people wrongly convicted should be killed?

 

[GurgleBot20]

Got facts to back that up?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

 

[excelsiorlef]

sure why not, if your not good useful to society why fund ...there to many fucking problem in the world ...

So basically you want everyone in prison to have no mental or medical treatment at all...

Brilliant!

It'll create a wonderful environment for all those who work in the prison I'm sure.

 

[StopMakingSense]

Most people are paying the sticker price because with the exception of a handful of state medicaid systems SRS is not covered by insurance. The vast majority of private insurers do not cover anything trans-related at all, even therapy and medication are denied.

huh, thats something i genuinely did not know.

 

[Naudi]

1. It's not a sex change, it's a gender-affirming surgery.
2. It absolutely is a matter of life or death.

How is it a matter of life and death? Will they die if they don't get the procedure?

 

[Opto]

I'm calling someone out for telling people to not speak for trans people then goes on to speak for trans people.

It's called "hypocrisy" what I was calling out.

Anything else is not my problem.

Let me make sure you get this: someone else's issues are not mine. If I have to tiptoe around people because they are dealing with something I am not aware of - that's not my problem. At all. I'm not privy to everyone's private lives. I called out hypocrisy and yes, it did cross my mind, but the verbiage is what Link chose to use. NOT ME.

If you want to have an honest discussion, you should speak honestly, right? I can only take what a poster says at face value because all I can do is read. I can't see body language. Hear inflection in someone's voice. See them shift in their chairs as they type.

I'm not clairvoyant. Are you? Do you know? Do you have a crystal ball? Should everyone get one?

I called out hypocrisy based on what and how it was written. Anything OUTSIDE of that is not my problem. It really isn't.

Get over it.

Don't blame me for not being able to infer from people's posts.

and generally, when someone like Link clarifies something, and you've clearly made a mistake, the rule is to apologize. you're just doubling down. it's pathetic

 

[A Link to the Past]

To be fair, I don't think we're /all/ in agreement over it, either.

I can certainly see a few arguments against doing so -- it's politically untenable, for instance. This is free ammunition to use against Jerry Brown's administration when it comes time for re-election. Free dogwhistle propaganda to rally around, same with HB2. So it's a case with no winner. You can refuse to do it and sacrifice basic rights and responsibilities of your prisoner and your state, or you can paint a target on your back like Merkel did by absorbing so many refugees.

Merkel stood up straight and proclaimed that it's still the right thing to do. No matter the political cost.

Then you have the healthcare argument, where it shouldn't be the case that prisoners get free healthcare but everyone else has to pay their own way. They can't afford it, but the criminals get it for free? Rabble rabble. A little propaganda at play, here -- criminals don't deserve rights -- echoed throughout the thread. But the last time I checked, they were human, and should enjoy human rights. So what about everyone else? Well, that's what medicare and medicaid are for, but if you make too much for access, you're SOL. Rather than blaming your state, you should be blaming your Congress for that. ...But it's California, and they have an underdsized amount of influence with regards to their population.

It's still the right thing to do. Also, #antifa

Then there's a tax argument. Most people don't really get taxes anywhere beyond a surface level. The numbers are big because the numbers of people are big. To that end, people see surgery, see how much it costs for surgery, and innately start thinking of paying the entire thing themselves with ALL of the taxes they pay...as if THEY paid for it directly, personally. They did not. This argument holds no water because ultimately, you are paying taxes mostly to a general fund, and the state of California was afforded the rights and responsibilities to give care to its prisoners, at a time when healthcare was available to all and cheap enough to trade sticks and pebbles for.

Still the right thing to do.

Then you have sociopath argument. Prisoners do not deserve rights, that's why they're prisoners. And have no rights. So fuck 'em.

It's still the right thing to do.

No single person can speak for the entire group without being asked to by everyone. Some transpeople here may disagree with California's decision, but I think we do agree, for the most part.

I was certainly not arguing that all trans people are necessarily in favor of this, merely that there is a good likelihood that the deluge of "what about trans people not in prison" is not largely being expressed by trans people.

How is it a matter of life and death? Will they die if they don't get the procedure?

The medical professionals involved gave the opinion that not getting SRS could affect her mental health to the extent that she may take her own life.

 

[Jacksinthe]

This is just so hateful.

I called someone out for being a hypocrite and straight out of the ultra-gaf playbook it gets spun on me like I didn't consider Link might be trans and I get attacked so I can be silenced. Fuck that.

That's why I made sure to bold his/her statement that referred to trans people as "them".

I'm sorry I take posts at face value. But it's not my job to answer a post in every possible manner in which Link did NOT write the post. I responded in the same context as it was written.

 

[Vilix]

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

To convict and execute an innocent person? It just lists the cost for executing a convicted murderer.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I called someone out for being a hypocrite and straight out of the ultra-gaf playbook it gets spun on me like I didn't consider Link might be trans and I get attacked so I can be silenced. Fuck that.

That's why I made sure to bold his/her statement that referred to trans people as "them".

I'm sorry I take posts at face value. But it's not my job to answer a post in every possible manner in which Link did NOT write the post. I responded in the same context as it was written.

You smugly responded with a failed gotcha lol.

And no, you didn't call someone out for being a hypocrite. You made the mistaken assumption that someone was being hypocritical and, straight out of the ultra-GAF playbook, decided to blame everyone else instead of using the experience to be more careful in the future.

For innocent person? It just lists the cost for executing a convicted murderer.

Is it your opinion that all people convicted of a crime are legitimately guilty?

 

[excelsiorlef]

How is it a matter of life and death? Will they die if they don't get the procedure?

Suicide rates amongst trans people especially those denied treatment are astronomical.

Would you deny an inmate medication for bipolar disorder?

 

[Koyuga]

I hate this fallacy people always feel the need to do. Which is "If you feel X isn't necessary then you feel the whole damn alphabet isn't either" it's infuriating.

Yes, I'm against a convicted murderer is getting something I feel isn't necessary for them to live. Why should I care about the mental anguish you suffer when there's other prisoners literally going insane in a cell? Why is this extreme more significant than the other? I wonder if you're even sorry about killing someone or so concerned about your mental health that it's all you care about. Never mind the mental trauma you caused someone's family.

Yeah, I'm speaking with my emotions.

It's nice to know that's what you think, at least. That trans people don't need vital surgeries to live. But many do.
Prison doesn't exist to make people suffer. That's not what justice is. Whether criminal or not, every person deserves to be treated with basic dignity and respect as a human. Letting someone die because they committed a crime isn't justice, it's cruelty.

 

[Opto]

I called someone out for being a hypocrite and straight out of the ultra-gaf playbook it gets spun on me like I didn't consider Link might be trans and I get attacked so I can be silenced. Fuck that.

That's why I made sure to bold his/her statement that referred to trans people as "them".

I'm sorry I take posts at face value. But it's not my job to answer a post in every possible manner in which Link did NOT write the post. I responded in the same context as it was written.

you made an assumption Link was a hypocrite. maybe you should be more considerate when someone clearly has a better idea of what they're talking about

 

[GurgleBot20]

To convict and execute an innocent person? It just lists the cost for executing a convicted murderer.

I don't think there's a refund to taxpayers if someone is wrongfully executed.

 

[Opto]

To convict and execute an innocent person? It just lists the cost for executing a convicted murderer.

so if you're wrongly accused and put on death row, you wouldn't fight it right? just the cost of killing the fellow in the next cell who probably definitely did it

 

[Vilix]

I don't think there's a refund to taxpayers if someone is wrongfully executed.

You're moving your goal post. Show me where it was proved that Texas used more money than California to convict innocent people.

 

[Kthulhu]

and we have a homeless problem in California, especially bay area...but we wanna pay for murderer surgery .....

Perhaps you should campaign to give the homeless homes. As that is the most viable solution to solving homelessness.

Edit: it would also reduce crime, meaning less surgery to pay for.

Edit 2: also you apparently don't care about the suffering of your fellow man, so good on you.

 

[Jacksinthe]

You made an assumption as to someone speaking for other people, called someone potentially a troll because you did not consider that they did not want to wear their identity on their sleeves.

A crystal ball is not necessary in order to avoid making a direct accusation and smugly using a meme. It's called having the good sense to not make direct accusations based on an assumption.

You could have easily PM'd me when I posted FIRST instead of several posts after the fact - noy try to spin this shit on me for replying to you within the CONTEXT IN WHICH YOU POSTED.

I don't play guessing games when it comes to this stuff AT ALL. You post using A, B, or C references - that's how I read it, that's how I respond.

Don't put this shit on me because I reply at face fucking value like I'm a fucking asshole.

No. You didn't PM me straight away if you wanted to keep quiet and went right on the attack when I called out your hypocrisy.

That's not my problem. It really isn't. Sorry it all went down like this but I answer in context and don't assume jack shit.

You don't like it that I don't assume random shit about posters that's fine. I say what I mean (if you can't tell) and I expect others to do the same.

Don't like how I function? Oh well. I'm not going to start assuming everything about everybody because you made the move to attack me over something I DIDNT KNOW because of the context YOU USED. That's a dick move, btw. You don't try to put people down when they don't know what you are hiding because you are fucking hiding it.

Edit:
Just read a PM.

Again. Not my fucking problem, sorry. This was SO fucking easily avoided but instead of clearing shit up - I was attacked for not knowing what someone was hiding. DICK fucking move. I don't attack people for not knowing something I am personally hiding from them because that's fucking low.

Sadly, not surprised here :|

 

[GurgleBot20]

You're moving your goal post. Show me where it was proved that Texas used more money than California to convict innocent people.

Huh? I never said anything about California convicting innocent people. I said the cost of executing someone in Texas (yes, innocent people have been wrongfully executed in Texas), costs more than SRS in California, so I don't understand why the Texas situation is preferable.

 

[Vilix]

so if you're wrongly accused and put on death row, you wouldn't fight it right?

Never said that.

 

[chillybright]

I'm sure more of your tax dollars went towards executing innocent people, than the people of California's will go towards this one surgery.

Got facts to back that up?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

How does that link prove your point, dude come on.

 

[Opto]

Never said that.

sorry, though you were saying the killing of innocents a cost worthwhile

 

[Da-Kid]

It's nice to know that's what you think, at least. That trans people don't need vital surgeries to live. But many do.
Prison doesn't exist to make people suffer. That's not what justice is. Whether criminal or not, every person deserves to be treated with basic dignity and respect as a human. Letting someone die because they committed a crime isn't justice, it's cruelty.

America's prison system does make people suffer, in fact, it's rigged so you can keep coming back and giving privately owned prisons more money. They don't care about justice. Also, cruelty doesn't seem justified unless you're the victim or the family of the victim.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You could have easily PM'd me when I posted FIRST instead of several posts after the fact - noy try to spin this shit on me for replying to you within the CONTEXT IN WHICH YOU POSTED.

I don't play guessing games when it comes to this stuff AT ALL. You post using A, B, or C references - that's how I read it, that's how I respond.

Don't put this shit on me because I reply at face fucking value like I'm a fucking asshole.

No. You didn't PM me straight away if you wanted to keep quiet and went right on the attack when I called out your hypocrisy.

That's not my problem. It really isn't. Sorry it all went down like this but I answer in context and don't assume jack shit.

You don't like it that I don't assume random shit about posters that's fine. I say what I mean (if you can't tell) and I expect others to do the same.

Don't like how I function? Oh well. I'm not going to start assuming everything about everybody because you made the move to attack me over something I DIDNT KNOW because of the context YOU USED. That's a dick move, btw. You don't try to put people down when they don't know what you are hiding because you are fucking hiding it.

Put people down? You replied in a snarky way, suggested I was not trans based on your assumption of what my post meant, and threw a meme at me. You're literally saying "Dick move" because I mocked you for being snarky. If you don't look at this as your problem, then I can't do much to help you. You'll just make the same mistake because instead of thinking about whether you did right or wrong, you got reactionary and defensive. Knowing that trans people sometimes will not present themselves as trans in such a discussion, you are actively declaring that you will assume that to not be the case, and in turn, you will just make the same mistake you made now.

Oh well

 

[Opto]

You could have easily PM'd me when I posted FIRST instead of several posts after the fact - noy try to spin this shit on me for replying to you within the CONTEXT IN WHICH YOU POSTED.

I don't play guessing games when it comes to this stuff AT ALL. You post using A, B, or C references - that's how I read it, that's how I respond.

Don't put this shit on me because I reply at face fucking value like I'm a fucking asshole.

No. You didn't PM me straight away if you wanted to keep quiet and went right on the attack when I called out your hypocrisy.

That's not my problem. It really isn't. Sorry it all went down like this but I answer in context and don't assume jack shit.

You don't like it that I don't assume random shit about posters that's fine. I say what I mean (if you can't tell) and I expect others to do the same.

Don't like how I function? Oh well. I'm not going to start assuming everything about everybody because you made the move to attack me over something I DIDNT KNOW because of the context YOU USED. That's a dick move, btw. You don't try to put people down when they don't know what you are hiding because you are fucking hiding it.

you never learned how to apologize, huh

 

[Da-Kid]

so if you're wrongly accused and put on death row, you wouldn't fight it right?

Here's that fallacy again..

 

[A Link to the Past]

Here's that fallacy again..

Not a false equivalency. People are making the point that not all people in prison deserve to be there. If a person was treated like garbage in prison because of your logic and then was released, would you feel bad?

 

[Jacksinthe]

you never learned how to apologize, huh

Why the fuck should I apologize for responding IN FUCKING CONTEXT to someone only to have them attack me like I'm a dick for not knowing what they are purposefully hiding?

How the fuck am I supposed to know?

I don't play guessing games with people. What reason would I have to play games before calling someone a hypocrite.

Fuck no I won't apologize for being swung at because I refuse to assume something as serious as this about random posters. Are you fucking high?

 

[Vilix]

sorry, though you were saying the killing of innocents a cost worthwhile

I was saying convicted murderers who killed innocent people. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Opto]

How does that link prove your point, dude come on.

one innocent person executed in texas costs 2.3 million dollars. that's 115 GRS procedures

 

[A Link to the Past]

EDIT: Nevermind, this is a pathetic derail, sorry.