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[Hoo-doo]

^ pretty much. 343, coalition, turn 10 have a purpose. If you want new ips, you'll get them from other places. EA needs a new madden, FIFA etc every year. Activision needs a new COD every year. They have studios established for that purpose. Don't look to them for new ips. They come from other places. MA has had a bunch of new IPs that you don't buy. So it's highly likely that you wouldn't buy a new IP from 343

That's sad though. Developers should be able to branch out creatively instead of having 450 devs working endlessly on cranking out sequels with ever diminishing returns for their effort.

It's on Microsoft to find a solution to this issue or risk 343 going bankrupt creatively (which in my opinion is already happening). And honestly, letting Halo breathe for two-three years while the devs get to work on something new and exciting will do the franchise good.

 

[Theorry]

Well to be fair 343 is working on two games. They have Halo Wars also.

 

[JlNX]

I know 343 won't do non Halo stuff but with 450 developers they should be doing more than just 1 mainline Halo every 3 years. I'm not saying they should go and make a new IP because that's not happening, but why not something else in the Halo franchise? Halo Kart? Halo MMO-lite like destiny?

1 mainline Halo game every 3 years from a dev team of 450 is a joke. Sledgehammer has 225 and they put out a CoD every 3 years, and that'll be including non devs too.

Or take like 150 of them, build a new studio for them and have them put out a new IP. That gives MS another studio and another new IP to add to their portfolio. Hell it wouldn't even cost that much more cause they're already paying their salary anyway.

You say that but 343 develops the campaign, the multiplayer, forge, the engine and a live team for content support. Sledgehammer is smaller but cod games have a lot of outsourcing, also the engine team may be in a different studio. Not to mention all the Cod studios work together. At any time sledgehammer could have up to 500 people working on a their game.

 

[blakep267]

That's sad though. Developers should be able to branch out creatively instead of having 450 devs working endlessly on cranking out sequels with ever diminishing returns for their effort.

It's on Microsoft to find a solution to this issue or risk 343 going bankrupt creatively (which in my opinion is already happening). And honestly, letting Halo breathe for two-three years while the devs get to work on something new and exciting will do the franchise good.

thats what independent development is for. I don't go to a big acccounting firm and then expect not to do menial accounting work. Nobody forces anybody to work at 343. People leave studios all the time for a change of pace.

 

[wapplew]

I just realize MS studio very much work like any other western thrid party publishers.

 

[DriftingSpirit]

That is what second party studios are for. Some of you really don't get it, it doesn't matter if they own the studio or not it matters if they own the ip. This weird bias people have towards first party studios over second party is dumbfounding. I thinks it's because people don't like not knowing or the unpredictability of it all or if I want to be cynical it's because it allows for a point of argument on Neogaf.

Na.

It doesn't matter that they can rely on third party to do it. I still want it from first party too. I don't want stagnation on any end.

 

[JlNX]

I think unpredictability have nothing to do with it. Sony/Nintendo do bunch of second party development too, nothing wrong with that.
For me, I prefer console manufacturers make long term investment on game development (invest on first party studio) than short term investment (invest on project).

Investing in a studio isn't more important, investing in a new ip is important wether it be second party or not. A studio can always be created to fits the needs of a ip. The ip is always more important than the studio. Microsoft has shown like I mentioned in my previous post that money nor studios is a issue.

 

[Chris1]

You say that but 343 develops the campaign, the multiplayer, forge, the engine and a live team for content support. Sledgehammer is smaller but cod games have a lot of outsourcing, also the engine team may be in a different studio. Not to mention all the Cod studios work together. At any time sledgehammer could have up to 500 people working on a their game.

While SHG does Campaign, Multiplayer, Zombies. They also built (modified) their engine aswell and has post launch support too. With the amount of content missing from Halo at launch (forge, etc), i'd even give SHG the advantage here as they will get theirs out on time every 3 years, is developing for multiple platforms and has an even smaller studio. Halo does have warzone though, I kinda forgot about that for a second.

I don't think there's much difference between the two honestly, but you are right in that the other CoD studios help out but I don't think it's as much as you think, they do have their own games to make after all.

Well to be fair 343 is working on two games. They have Halo Wars also.

That's being developed by Creative Assembley aswell, who also have 300 employees.. I doubt 343 is doing much of the actual development on that game, they will just be overseeing it etc. But I could be wrong.

 

[Nightengale]

Number of development staff at a single studio is definitely reflective of a project's scale, but it's difficult to get an apple-to-apple comparison.

Considering Bungie is like 500 people now and still has two dedicated studios supporting them, there's really nothing strange about 343i at 450+.

Mainline Halo games are dense in on-disc content and long-term support.

Investing in a studio isn't more important, investing in a new ip is important wether it be second party or not. A studio can always be created to fits the needs of a ip. The ip is always more important than the studio. Microsoft has shown like I mentioned in my previous post that money nor studios is a issue.

It's a matter of opinion, but I don't share this view. There is no problem with second party development at all, but my personal belief is that studio is more important than IP. There's no need to own the studio, but I care more about the talent making a game than the intellectual property itself.

 

[Theorry]

That's being developed by Creative Assembley aswell, who also have 300 employees.. I doubt 343 is doing much of the actual development on that game, they will just be overseeing it etc. But I could be wrong.

I think CA is pure for the RTS side of things. As 343 have no clue how to do that i think.
And i believe CA is also working on 4 other Total War projects. So i doubt all 300 are working on Halo Wars.

 

[nekkid]

I think CA is pure for the RTS side of things. As 343 have no clue how to do that i think.
And i believe CA is also working on 4 other Total War projects. So i doubt all 300 are working on Halo Wars.

Weirdly it's the team at CA responsible for Alien Isolation, rather than a Total War, developing HW2.

 

[JlNX]

That's sad though. Developers should be able to branch out creatively instead of having 450 devs working endlessly on cranking out sequels with ever diminishing returns for their effort.

It's on Microsoft to find a solution to this issue or risk 343 going bankrupt creatively (which in my opinion is already happening). And honestly, letting Halo breathe for two-three years while the devs get to work on something new and exciting will do the franchise good.

Your bringing personal bias of the ip into this and assuming the voice of the developer you never met. A ip doesn't limit creative freedom look at Halo wars or even all the Star Wars games. Your hyperbolic language doesn't help your point 'cranking out' every 3 years. Diminishing returns? Halo 4 was a very different single player from previous Halo's. Halo 5 while had a bad story, it made a lot of major sweeping changes to the Halo sandbox, forge got completely rebuilt and it's by far the best one yet. Their engine got overhauled etc. None of that is diminishing returns.

 

[wapplew]

Investing in a studio isn't more important, investing in a new ip is important wether it be second party or not. A studio can always be created to fits the needs of a ip. The ip is always more important than the studio. Microsoft has shown like I mentioned in my previous post that money nor studios is a issue.

Two things, studio can be important "IP" too, like Retro or ND.
Secondly, internal studio need to keep making games to justify it existence, therefore steady flow of content is a sure thing.
Without worry about running a studio, publisher can pull the plug at any point, like late 360 era.

 

[blakep267]

While SHG does Campaign, Multiplayer, Zombies. They also built (modified) their engine aswell and has post launch support too. With the amount of content missing from Halo at launch (forge, etc), i'd even give SHG the advantage here as they will get theirs out on time every 3 years, is developing for multiple platforms and has an even smaller studio.

I don't think there's much difference between the two honestly, but you are right in that the other CoD studios help out but I don't think it's as much as you think, they do have their own games to make after all.



That's being developed by Creative Assembley aswell, who also have 300 employees.. I doubt 343 is doing much of the actual development on that game, they will just be overseeing it etc. But I could be wrong.

Advanced warfare was made by sledgehammer, High moon studios and raven. It's not just a singular effort. No COD game is


Also ok a dev diary for Halo wars 2, they showed 343 actually doing development for it along with CA

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

Advanced warfare was made by sledgehammer, High moon studios and raven. It's not just a singular effort. No COD game is


Also ok a dev diary for Halo wars 2, they showed 343 actually doing development for it along with CA

Like all MS games, I'm sure they have employees who helped with Forge, but it seems a lot of the grunt work was done by Skybox Labs who list Forge on their projects: http://skyboxlabs.com/game/halo-5-forge/

 

[JlNX]

Two things, studio can be important "IP" too, like Retro or ND.
Secondly, internal studio need to keep making games to justify it existence, therefore steady flow of content is a sure thing.
Without worry about running a studio, publisher can pull the plug at any point, like late 360 era.

Oh I agree that a studio can definieily be a ip, but Microsoft doesn't need to own it for that to be the case. Platinum is a important ip working on Scalebound for Microsoft. It makes no difference that they don't own them. Microsoft is also in a different position than Sony with naughty dog, uncharted is a beloved gameip. Halo is a beloved universeip like Star Wars, you care about Star wars not Lucasfilm or Disney or a second party studio same goes for Halo. Nintendo has this issue, you care about Mario, Zelda etc but not the studios (Nintendo studio A, Nintendo studio B) just becomes Nintendo, just like Halo becomes Xbox.

 

[Chris1]

Advanced warfare was made by sledgehammer, High moon studios and raven. It's not just a singular effort. No COD game is

Honestly I kinda forget about them, I thought they just helped out with the DLC but I looked it up and raven is listed under MP, Zombies, and DLC for all consoles on AW.

HMS did the port jobs to 360/PS3/X1 according to Wiki. The PS4/PC versions seem to be HMS and SHG duo effort.

 

[Synth]

Without worry about running a studio, publisher can pull the plug at any point, like late 360 era.

Publishers can just pull the plug on the studio anyway (like late 360 era). There's little difference in that regards.

 

[OldRoutes]

It's 450 developers, not 450 employees.

Can you give me the source of that figure? All I'm seeing is 450 employees, not developers.

 

[Chris1]

Can you give me the source of that figure? All I'm seeing is 450 employees, not developers.

Just checked my issue.

Click the quote

 

[JlNX]

Like all MS games, I'm sure they have employees who helped with Forge, but it seems a lot of the grunt work was done by Skybox Labs who list Forge on their projects: http://skyboxlabs.com/game/halo-5-forge/

The team who handle development of forge and it's engine is 343 headed up by Tom french, sky box works on assets for forge and post launch forge support.


For people wondering what 343 are handling when it comes to halo wars 2, it's music, art design, story and marketing.

 

[Primethius]

That is what second party studios are for. Some of you really don't get it, it doesn't matter if they own the studio or not it matters if they own the ip. This weird bias people have towards first party studios over second party is dumbfounding. I thinks it's because people don't like not knowing or the unpredictability of it all or if I want to be cynical it's because it allows for a point of argument on Neogaf.

Disagree entirely. There's a huge difference between first-party and second-party. And yea, a large part of that is the unpredictable nature of the relationship.

Let's just take an MS example. Sunset Overdrive. Really enjoyed that game. But look at what Insomniac is working on now. Do you think we're going to get a SO2? We'd be lucky if we did given the kind of work they have lined up. MS owns the IP but they aren't going to create another studio to make Sunset 2. And Insomniac, even if they want to make Sunset 2 might find that they have more lucrative work elsewhere.

The entire relationship between the MS and Insomniac is drastically different due to the involvement of third parties in the entire matter.

Were Insomniac first party, we might get a SO2. Or at least, another game by Insomniac. Both things are looking unlikely right about now.

 

[Chris1]

Disagree entirely. There's a huge difference between first-party and second-party. And yea, a large part of that is the unpredictable nature of the relationship.

Let's just take an MS example. Sunset Overdrive. Really enjoyed that game. But look at what Insomniac is working on now. Do you think we're going to get a SO2? We'd be lucky if we did given the kind of work they have lined up. MS owns the IP but they aren't going to create another studio to make Sunset 2. And Insomniac, even if they want to make Sunset 2 might find that they have more lucrative work elsewhere.

The entire relationship between the MS and Insomniac is drastically different due to the involvement of third parties in the entire matter.

Were Insomniac first party, we might get a SO2. Or at least, another game by Insomniac. Both things are looking unlikely right about now.

To be fair... Jinx did say it doesn't matter if they own the IP.. MS doesn't own the SO IP, Insomniac does.

Do you think if MS owned Insomniac there'd be a SO2? Because I don't, so it's kind of a weird question... Probably would have gotten another game though. Or maybe they would have been shut down instead of Lionhead.. you sure you wanna risk that, Prime?

Only half joking, I do somewhat agree with you but I think as long as MS is getting work via 2nd parties it's not a big deal, and they've never had any troubles with it. But more first party studios is definitely a +.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

That's sad though. Developers should be able to branch out creatively instead of having 450 devs working endlessly on cranking out sequels with ever diminishing returns for their effort.

It's on Microsoft to find a solution to this issue or risk 343 going bankrupt creatively (which in my opinion is already happening). And honestly, letting Halo breathe for two-three years while the devs get to work on something new and exciting will do the franchise good.

Why would you work at 343i, T10 or The Coalition then? It shouldnt come as a surprise to anyone what games you're going to be working on if you're at one of those studios.

 

[OldRoutes]

Click the quote

That's still not 'developers' as in "I'm a developper on Halo 5, I worked on this level's design".

Development staff means everything from Production to Artists to Testers to Facility runners. That might also include internal web developers, community manager, Waypoint App developers, content producers, etc...

Like I said, 343 is not solely a game developer.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

Disagree entirely. There's a huge difference between first-party and second-party. And yea, a large part of that is the unpredictable nature of the relationship.

Let's just take an MS example. Sunset Overdrive. Really enjoyed that game. But look at what Insomniac is working on now. Do you think we're going to get a SO2? We'd be lucky if we did given the kind of work they have lined up. MS owns the IP but they aren't going to create another studio to make Sunset 2. And Insomniac, even if they want to make Sunset 2 might find that they have more lucrative work elsewhere.

The entire relationship between the MS and Insomniac is drastically different due to the involvement of third parties in the entire matter.

Were Insomniac first party, we might get a SO2. Or at least, another game by Insomniac. Both things are looking unlikely right about now.

Insomniac owns the Sunset Overdrive IP, thats the reason they went with MS as they wanted to retain ownership of the IP and MS were the only Publisher who were down for that kind of deal. A commendable agreement from both parties, wouldnt you say?

 

[Chris1]

That's still not 'developers' as in "I'm a developper on Halo 5, I worked on this level's design".

Development staff means everything from Production to Artists to Testers to Facility runners. That might also include internal web developers, community manager, Waypoint App developers, content producers, etc...

Like I said, 343 is not solely a game developer.

If it was employees they would have said that, "now comprising of over 450 staff", the use of "development staff" is a bit specific if you ask me. Also, other than community manager, facility runner there, all of those would be developers anyway..

 

[Primethius]

To be fair... Jinx did say it doesn't matter if they own the IP.. MS doesn't own the SO IP, Insomniac does.

Do you think if MS owned Insomniac there'd be a SO2? Because I don't, so it's kind of a weird question... Probably would have gotten another game though. Or maybe they would have been shut down instead of Lionhead.. you sure you wanna risk that, Prime?

Only half joking, I do somewhat agree with you but I think as long as MS is getting work via 2nd parties it's not a big deal, and they've never had any troubles with it. But more first party studios is definitely a +.

Insomniac owns the Sunset Overdrive IP, thats the reason they went with MS as they wanted to retain ownership of the IP and MS were the only Publisher who were down for that kind of deal. A commendable agreement from both parties, wouldnt you say?

Right, sorry, I forgot about that. I got it mixed up because I just remembered that MS has the right of first refusal on the game not ownership.

My apologies.

 

[Synth]

Disagree entirely. There's a huge difference between first-party and second-party. And yea, a large part of that is the unpredictable nature of the relationship.

Let's just take an MS example. Sunset Overdrive. Really enjoyed that game. But look at what Insomniac is working on now. Do you think we're going to get a SO2? We'd be lucky if we did given the kind of work they have lined up. MS owns the IP but they aren't going to create another studio to make Sunset 2. And Insomniac, even if they want to make Sunset 2 might find that they have more lucrative work elsewhere.

The entire relationship between the MS and Insomniac is drastically different due to the involvement of third parties in the entire matter.

Were Insomniac first party, we might get a SO2. Or at least, another game by Insomniac. Both things are looking unlikely right about now.

While I agree that it's somewhat different, I also don't think it's as simple as you're making it sound. If a game from a 2nd party does well, then that game is probably getting a sequel (Forza Horizon, State of Decay, Ori, Gears, etc).. and if it doesn't, then it probably isn't. The main difference between a 1st party and 2nd party in this situation is that a 2nd party is interchangeable for the next project you want to attempt. If Killer Instinct fell through for MS, then the next project doesn't have to be a fighter, because you can just swap Double Helix out for Armature to try Recore instead. If they owned Double Helix, and Killer Instinct failed, then what do you do with a studio who hadn't displayed any real competency in any other genre prior? You're limited as to what you can get from them, and they're now limited because they only work for you.

If MS owned Insomniac, and Sunset Overdrive bombed, and Ratchet and Spider-Man were both off the table for obvious reasons... then you're not necessarily more likely to get SO2, you've probably instead got an Insomniac that's significantly less likely to continue existing (like say Evolution).

 

[Wandering Robot]

Looking at this thread certainly does highlight how sparse Microsoft's lineup is. Doesn't seem like they're in much of a place to diversify, unfortunately, but I guess that's what third parties are for. I wonder how the year'll look for them.

 

[Salty Hippo]

Like some have already pointed out, the problem with the single IP factory approach is that they only have 4 studios making games and only one of them is not a factory (for now). It's just dumb, even if Microsoft gets to keep the IP. You can't rely so much on outsourcing because what the fuck are you going to do when one of these second parties land a hit and then decide they want to go do something else, work on their own IP or whatever it is? You just can't build and nurture new IP with that mentality. It's stupid and incredibly short-sighted for any platform holder, unless you have a monopoly like Valve.

Imagine the very hypothetical and insanely unlikely scenario where Scalebound is a hit and becomes their new Fable. In the event that Kamiya moved on, who the FUCK would replace him? Talent in the AA/AAA space is becoming more scarce every day, so when you find that talent you better grab them and make sure they are happy working for you so they won't leave. That's what they should have done with Bioware when they had the chance. Or Double Helix. Both were snatched up under Microsoft's nose. They can't, or don't want to take a long term approach. And that's bad. It shows a lack of commitment to this business.

Once you have a nice stable of talented studios, you brand becomes strong and the case for people to buy your box will make itself. This is the age of social media where perception and opinions spread like wildfire. But what have they been doing? Mismanaging and shutting down what little studios they had. Rare, Bungie, FASA, Ensemble, Lionhead, Press Play. Consumers aren't that stupid, they will compare you to the competition and be vocal about it.

If Microsoft understood studio/IP building, today they could have more than 10 good studios alternating between a tentpole IP and something else every 2 or 3 years. Don't even need 2 full teams for that, have a small team to prototype the next thing while the current project is finished.

Take 343i for example. Put them on steady a cycle of Halo and something else, something smaller. Could be Perfect Dark, which doesn't have a huge scale and is a genre they're more than familiar with. Example:

2015: Halo 5
2017: Perfect Dark One (Remake/reimagining of original)
2020: Halo 6
2022: Perfect Dark 2
2024: Halo 7

Not only does their output look much more attractive for gamers, it also gives more time for Halo to recover from franchise fatigue. I know, Halo is a staple, but if they don't give it time to rest the cashcow will undoubtly dry up sooner rather than later and they'll end up ruining their biggest IP. Sales are already declining. This doesn't need to get in the way of how 343i operates, they can keep the staff that has no input in the games working on Halo merch or whatever for eternity if they want to.

This is what we currently expect from 343i:

2015: Halo 5
2017: Halo 3 Remake
2018: Halo 6
2020: Halo Reach 2/ODST 2?
2021: Halo 7

Good luck attracting new consumers with that.

Look at how Rockstar or Bethesda treat their biggest IP. They give them time. Or even fucking EA with Bioware. 5 years without a new Mass Effect. That's perfect, people are starving for it. That results in more interest, more units sold, and overall a stronger, healthier IP.

Microsoft could have today:

343i or Bungie on Halo + Perfect Dark/New IP
Rare on Sea of Thieves + Banjo/New IP.
Black Tusk on Gears + Jet Force/New IP.
Turn 10 on just Motorsport.
Playground on Horizon + PGR/Kart racer/Rallisport/Midtown Madness
Double Helix or Iron Galaxy on KI + Battletoads/New IP
Twisted Pixel on Conker + SplosionMan/New IP.
Press Play on New IP + Max/Voodoo Vince.
FASA on Crimson Skies/New IP + Mech series/New IP.
Ensemble on Halo Wars + Age of Empires/Rise of Nations.
Lionhead on Fable + New IP, or if they were smart in the first place, Bioware on Mass Effect + Dragon Age instead.
Undead Labs on just State of Decay.
Moon Studios on Ori + New IP.

"Bu bu bu most of these studios weren't very profitable". Fuck off, you're Microsoft. You don't become a global leader in a day and by playing it safe. Grow a pair and compete.

TL;DR: Fuck Phil Spencer.

 

[Primethius]

While I agree that it's somewhat different, I also don't think it's as simple as you're making it sound. If a game from a 2nd party does well, then that game is probably getting a sequel (Forza Horizon, State of Decay, Ori, Gears, etc).. and if it doesn't, then it probably isn't. The main difference between a 1st party and 2nd party in this situation is that a 2nd party is interchangeable for the next project you want to attempt. If Killer Instinct fell through for MS, then the next project doesn't have to be a fighter, because you can just swap Double Helix out for Armature to try Recore instead. If they owned Double Helix, and Killer Instinct failed, then what do you do with a studio who hadn't displayed any real competency in any other genre prior? You're limited as to what you can get from them, and they're now limited because they only work for you.

If MS owned Insomniac, and Sunset Overdrive bombed, and Ratchet and Spider-Man were both off the table for obvious reasons... then you're not necessarily more likely to get SO2, you've probably instead got an Insomniac that's significantly less likely to continue existing (like say Evolution).

Right, I agree. And that's generally a better end-proposition for fans of the system (and said studio) which is what I was trying to get at.

In the Insomniac as first party hypothetical, if SO bombs, then as a fan, I'm still more excited for what Insomniac will do (no matter what it is) then another second party studio getting a stab at a different or new IP (e.g. something like Recore).

The second party scenario introduces too many variables subject both to the sales and actual quality of the title. Whereas the first party scenario offers a bit of a leeway, especially in those mixed-bag scenarios where the game is quality but doesn't sell (Sunset Overdrive).

 

[PanicFreak]

It's 450 developers, not 450 employees.

LinkedIn says that 343i is a company of between 201 and 500 employees for what it's worth. I wouldn't be surprised if a video game magazine got that fact wrong.

 

[JlNX]

Disagree entirely. There's a huge difference between first-party and second-party. And yea, a large part of that is the unpredictable nature of the relationship.

Let's just take an MS example. Sunset Overdrive. Really enjoyed that game. But look at what Insomniac is working on now. Do you think we're going to get a SO2? We'd be lucky if we did given the kind of work they have lined up. MS owns the IP but they aren't going to create another studio to make Sunset 2. And Insomniac, even if they want to make Sunset 2 might find that they have more lucrative work elsewhere.

The entire relationship between the MS and Insomniac is drastically different due to the involvement of third parties in the entire matter.

Were Insomniac first party, we might get a SO2. Or at least, another game by Insomniac. Both things are looking unlikely right about now.

Well first Microsoft doesn't own the ip this deal was made before Phil took over and started the must own the ip rule. Secondly I don't think Microsoft would want to make a sequel because it was a commercial failure, Insomniac being second party was a good thing now there working on Spiderman instead of being a first party studio that just had a commercial failure and would be in the same position as Lionhead. Second party cut ties, still in a good talking relationship. Let's say Microsoft did own the ip (they probably have a first rights deal) and it was successful why wouldn't insomniac stick around and if they didn't why wouldn't they build a studio to fit the ip. I explained in my previous posts money nor studios is a issue for Microsoft. Also Insomniac is independent for a reason, I think you can guess why.

If Insomniac were first party and SSOD failed why couldn't they work on a new ip? Well why can't Microsoft spend that money instead on another second party ip? Oh wait they can cause Insomniac is second party. Unpredictability is only a issue if you don't own the ip or the money to set up a studio designed for the ip, neither of those are issues for Microsoft.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

Could be wrong but isn't Playground Games the studio that makes Forza Horizon franchise while Turn 10 develops the main Forza Motorsport franchise?

Reason im asking is because I remember reading or hearing in a podcast (don't remember which) that Playground Games is working on a new IP unrelated to Forza Horizon.

 

[CrayToes]

Microsoft's first party lineup is wildly uninspiring. Phil needs to get on that.

 

[OldRoutes]

If it was employees they would have said that, "now comprising of over 450 staff", the use of "development staff" is a bit specific if you ask me. Also, other than community manager, facility runner there, all of those would be developers anyway..

Whatever, man...

I'm just trying to explain that there's not 450 people working on Halo 6 right now.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

Could be wrong but isn't Playground Games the studio that makes Forza Horizon franchise while Turn 10 develops the main Forza Motorsport franchise?

Reason im asking is because I remember reading or hearing in a podcast (don't remember which) that Playground Games is working on a new IP unrelated to Forza Horizon.

They both share the tech across FM and FH games but Motorspport is made by T10 and Horizon is made by Playground and you are correct, Playground have been on a hiring spree as they look to move to a two team studio. The game they are developing is going to be a new game in a new genre from the studio.

It is mega fucking exciting to see what they could come up with whether its with MS or a multiplatform Publisher.

Might be too soon to hear about it this year though.....

 

[DriftingSpirit]

I'll use Guerrilla Games and Sony as an example.

I do not like first person shooters (Battlefield being the sole exception to the rule). I have never played a Killzone game and I will probably never play a Killzone game. According to Wikipedia, GG has been working on Killzone since 2004 when they created it on PS2 up to Killzone Shadowfall in 2013. That is nearly a decade of Killzone. Needless to say, GG has been a completely irrelevant first party studio for me.

With the introduction of Horizon: Zero Dawn, they have made a game that has skyrocketed to the very top of my most anticipated games. Sony saw the stagnation and dullness around the studio and decided to change things up and get risky.

Now, imagine if Sony had decided to cancel Horizon around 2014 when there was just leaked concept art for the game and decided to double down on GG being a Killzone factory. I would have been extremely disappointed. This new venture with Horizon provides an opportunity for them to freshen up the studio and even possibly rework Killzone (I think Guerrilla Cambridge is being given all the time in the world to revamp Killzone).

That is what I want from first party studios. And this is in conjunction with other good third party partnerships. It shouldn't solely be third party partnerships. Some of you keep looking at this from a business perspective and while I get that side of the equation (I have spoke on it myself in defense of MS), look at it from a consumer/console enthusiast perspective and understand why some of us are critical of MS' current first party situation.

 

[JlNX]

Whatever, man...

I'm just trying to explain that there's not 450 people working on Halo 6 right now.

To be fair i remember the Halo 5 credits being super fucking long, like ridiculously long (I remember because I was waiting for the legendary ending to fix the story, it didn't)

 

[Shin-Ra]

From a polygon article

"The thing we showed at E3 last year, it was something that was done in Unreal and more of a concept piece," Spencer said, calling it "an asset" created by the team to get their creative juices flowing, not necessarily an in-development game.

"The studio has really been incubating different ideas over the past six to nine months on what they might work on," he said, "but the discussion with Epic obviously didn't start yesterday. We've been in this discussion for a while. The leadership team there has known for a while."


He was hyping it up. He also hyped up Recore in 2015 as the next game to join the trinity. Look how that turned out

You don't normally show concept/prototype-stage projects at E3.

But they also showed HoloLens at E3 as if it was a consumer product due in the foreseeable future.

 

[wapplew]

Imagine the very hypothetical and insanely unlikely scenario where Scalebound is a hit and becomes their new Fable. In the event that Kamiya moved on, who the FUCK would replace him? Talent in the AA/AAA space is becoming more scarce every day, so when you find that talent you better grab them and make sure they are happy working for you so they won't leave. That's what they should have done with Bioware when they had the chance. Or Double Helix. Both were snatched up under Microsoft's nose. They can't, or don't want to take a long term approach. And that's bad. It shows a lack of commitment to this business.

Gears without Epic, blacktusk takeover, first ever project 80+ meta score Gears4. Killer instinct without Double Helix, iron galaxy take over, maintain quality.
Who say MS can't find a new studio or even build another factory if Scalebound become a hit?

 

[DriftingSpirit]

Disagree entirely. There's a huge difference between first-party and second-party. And yea, a large part of that is the unpredictable nature of the relationship.

Let's just take an MS example. Sunset Overdrive. Really enjoyed that game. But look at what Insomniac is working on now. Do you think we're going to get a SO2? We'd be lucky if we did given the kind of work they have lined up. MS owns the IP but they aren't going to create another studio to make Sunset 2. And Insomniac, even if they want to make Sunset 2 might find that they have more lucrative work elsewhere.

The entire relationship between the MS and Insomniac is drastically different due to the involvement of third parties in the entire matter.

Were Insomniac first party, we might get a SO2. Or at least, another game by Insomniac. Both things are looking unlikely right about now.

While you've noted the mistake with IP ownership, I still agree with the overall gist of your post.

It is fine to work with third party to get these deals but it isn't something you completely rely on for IP diversity. The foundation of it all is too shaky and unreliable to do so. Something like Sunset Overdrive is one and done. Insomniac has moved on to bigger and better things and there is nothing MS can do about it.

Of course, it doesn't necessarily mean MS even wants to continue with Sunset Overdrive (they more than likely don't) but it is just the point of being in a situation like that regardless.

Have your own studios working to build a foundation of diversity and allow third party partnerships to aid that work. Not the other way around.

 

[Chris1]

LinkedIn says that 343i is a company of between 201 and 500 employees for what it's worth. I wouldn't be surprised if a video game magazine got that fact wrong.

"This LinkedIn Company Page was automatically created by LinkedIn. This Company Page is not currently maintained by, endorsed by or affiliated with the company."

Not to mention the description of it is in Spanish so I can't read it but it sounds like they think the company is based in Spain. I mean you could be right that EDGE got it wrong, but I wouldn't put any stock in that linkedin page

Whatever, man...

I'm just trying to explain that there's not 450 people working on Halo 6 right now.

I know that lol, obviously no studio is working on 1 game at all time, there's other stuff going on. But that's true for every video game company, not just 343.

 

[OldRoutes]

To be fair i remember the Halo 5 credits being super fucking long, like ridiculously long (I remember because I was waiting for the legendary ending to fix the story, it didn't)

A lot of those are credited contractors, motion capture techs/actors and special thanks :

http://www.mobygames.com/game/xbox-one/halo-5-guardians/credits

 

[JlNX]

I'll use Guerrilla Games and Sony as an example.

I do not like first person shooters (Battlefield being the sole exception to the rule). I have never played a Killzone game and I will probably never play a Killzone game. According to Wikipedia, GG has been working on Killzone since 2004 when they created it on PS2 up to Killzone Shadowfall in 2013. That is nearly a decade of Killzone. Needless to say, GG has been a completely irrelevant first party studio for me.

With the introduction of Horizon: Zero Dawn, they have made a game that has skyrocketed to the very top of my most anticipated games. Sony saw the stagnation and dullness around the studio and decided to change things up and get risky.

Now, imagine if Sony had decided to cancel Horizon around 2014 when there was just leaked concept art for the game and decided to double down on GG being a Killzone factory. I would have been extremely disappointed. This new venture with Horizon provides an opportunity for them to freshen up the studio and even possibly rework Killzone (I think Guerrilla Cambridge is being given all the time in the world to revamp Killzone).

That is what I want from first party studios. And this is in conjunction with other good third party partnerships. It shouldn't solely be third party partnerships. Some of you keep looking at this from a business perspective and while I get that side of the equation (I have spoke on it myself in defense of MS), look at it from a consumer/console enthusiast perspective and understand why some of us are critical of MS' current first party situation.

And why couldn't Sony have just funded a new first or second party studio to make a new ip you were equally excited about. Your not going to like what every studio makes that the reality of life, were not in a fake video game world. Also comparing a studio that in over ten years has only released one good game to Halo is not a good comparison. Very different fanbases.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

They both share the tech across FM and FH games but Motorspport is made by T10 and Horizon is made by Playground and you are correct, Playground have been on a hiring spree as they look to move to a two team studio. The game they are developing is going to be a new game in a new genre from the studio.

It is mega fucking exciting to see what they could come up with whether its with MS or a multiplatform Publisher.

Might be too soon to hear about it this year though.....

Isn't PlayGround Games owned by Microsoft? Always thought they were owned by them. Yes, two studios. I knew I was missing something when I mentioned new IP. Figure that the main team stays with Forza Horizon franchise and the second team works on the new IP. I know it's too soon but that's okay. I hate it when exclusives and even games in general are announced and shown too early/soon. It's very annoying, aggravating and frustrating.

 

[Synth]

Imagine the very hypothetical and insanely unlikely scenario where Scalebound is a hit and becomes their new Fable. In the event that Kamiya moved on, who the FUCK would replace him?

Well, to be fair...

A) That kinda happened with Killer Instinct, and Iron Galaxy slotted in quite comfortably.
B) This basically happened to Devil May Cry, despite being internal.

I agree with what you're saying about making sure you maintain good relations with those that make your most valuable products... but I think that works similarly with 2nd party as it does 1st party. You can't force the individual people working on these games to continue working on them if they don't want to regardless of if you own the studio. The studio is nothing but a name/brand (see current day Infinity Ward), 343i could just as easily be named Bungie today, and very little would change. Activision would probably still have the real Bungie, just as EA has the real Infinity Ward.

If your 2nd party team is happy, then they're pretty much as good as a 1st party anyway. Bizarre Creations were kinda like this for MS up to PGR3 (and Playground Games are similar today), Insomniac are like that for Sony also, with the only real reason for Sunset Overdrive being an Xbox game being that Insomniac wanted their own IP for once (not too dissimilar to Bungie with MS). I honestly think we tend to draw far too strong a line here between the differing ways a publisher gets a game published.

Right, I agree. And that's generally a better end-proposition for fans of the system (and said studio) which is what I was trying to get at.

In the Insomniac as first party hypothetical, if SO bombs, then as a fan, I'm still more excited for what Insomniac will do (no matter what it is) then another second party studio getting a stab at a different or new IP (e.g. something like Recore).

The second party scenario introduces too many variables subject both to the sales and actual quality of the title. Whereas the first party scenario offers a bit of a leeway, especially in those mixed-bag scenarios where the game is quality but doesn't sell (Sunset Overdrive).

I disagree with the 1st party route in situations like that being preferable to 2nd party variables. I can kinda see how that makes sense if you're closely aligned to a specific ecosystem, but as a fan of the studio itself, I don't think it's a better scenario in most cases.

If you're a fan of Insomniac, then after Sunset Overdrive bombs, you should be somewhat relieved that they can go back to making a new Ratchet, and then a new Spider-Man. Evolution was a lucky break with Codemasters stepping in to pick them up, otherwise if you were a fan of their games, then there would be no "what they do next" to look forward to. And as I've been saying before, the studio itself is only a name/brand... if a game bombs and the studio lacks the flexibility to for example move to somewhere that their product has a better chance of survival, then you're probably looking at a pretty different studio over time anyway (hi Rare).

Like... imagine if Sega had actually owned Platinum... lol

 

[JlNX]

Isn't PlayGround Games owned by Microsoft? Always thought they were owned by them. Yes, two studios. I knew I was missing something when I mentioned new IP. Figure that the main team stays with Forza Horizon franchise and the second team works on the new IP. I know it's too soon but that's okay. I hate it when exclusives and even games in general are announced and shown too early/soon. It's very annoying, aggravating and frustrating.

Playgrounds first game was Forza Horizon funded by Microsoft, the studios flourished because of it. But with Microsoft holding ownership to the Forza Horizon ip, the funding of their studio. It's more than likely that Microsoft owns the ip and is funding this new project, due to the fact they have so much control over the success or failure of the studio.

 

[Shabad]

The problem with relying on external teams while having an insufficient amount of first party studios is that tyere is only so many independent development teams able to produce AAA level games.

And Sony isn't shy about working with those, so the number of opportunities is fairly limited. If Microsoft want to insure a steady flow of ambitious exclusive for their platform, they need to cultivate and expand their first party studios.