Retro AV Club Thread 2: Classic Gaming Done Right!

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I like what's going on with FPGAs for the preservation of being able to play these games on hardware that's as close to the real thing as you can get. I'll always do what I can to keep playing on original hardware. I kind of enjoy setting things up, getting the right cables etc etc. Though I've said on here before I've always been one to chase better visual quality in my gaming life.
 
speedlolita said:
Reading all this talk of "dealing with" actual hardware is a little disappointing.

I guess perhaps living in Europe (easy access to RGB) and being able to mod my own consoles (no shipping hassles, chasing modders, low cost...) might skew my view but I'm really quite passionate about playing on original hardware.

FPGAs are neat an all but have as much appeal to me as emulation I guess.
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There's a pretty big wall between starting fresh and where we are now. There's a lot to absorb and a lot of skill needed (I mod all my own stuff too) that I don't think most people have. If there's an easier solution that gets you 98% of the way there, analog included, with extremely good implementations for NES and pretty damn close for just about anything else up to a certain point, then sure I think that's perfectly OK. I wouldn't sell my stuff and start over with that right now (I also don't like wasting my time selling stuff, it's not worth the money for the hastle) but if someone had that and was dissatisfied with something, adding on real hardware from there isn't a big deal. The same way I have traditionally argued starting with a Wii + Virtual Console and adding from that is pretty cool, and an FPGA system is miles better than that.

I tried to explain what I did to get my NES setup to someone at work (AV Fami, NESRGB I put in myself, RGB cable, FM, everdrive, FDS ram adapter + FDS stick), but when he got to "do you think it's worth it" it gets hard to justify for people who aren't me. I'm also pretty fortunate to not have to worry about import fees for expensive purchases from Japan. And like where I'm at now with a lot less spare time it would be hard to justify if I was starting now with none of this stuff.

I've even invested in better modding tools. I bought a Hakko FX-888D (~$100) to get better temp control and better tips, justifying it by saying I'm not going to fuck up my $300 PC Engine because I cheap'd out with a $10 soldering iron. I even finally bought a proper dremel.

And like I said there's some stuff that just isn't going to be replaced. You're not going to see an FPGA take on a Windows 98 compatible computer, ever, guaranteed. Just way too complicated. But maybe someone could do an MT-32 implementation, that would make me pretty excited.
 
televator said:
People had this hang up over "emulation" with flash carts too. They were wrong then and are wrong now.
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i got the nes classic but not really thrilled but the new modding to throw snes games looks cool... maybe it's the 400+ price tag and emulation associated with it... i don't know, but i still stare at the NT mini.

i was so close to impulse buying it but couldn't...
 
televator said:
People had this hang up over "emulation" with flash carts too. They were wrong then and are wrong now.
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That's pretty different and even then depends.

On a lot of systems the cart is just a rom. That's just data. Whatever.

On stuff like NES you have mappers. Most of them are pretty straightforward, but a few do weird stuff that even today aren't perfectly simulated on Powerpak/Everdrives. FDS sound is an obvious example of that.

Has anyone tried the NT Mini's FDS sound reproduction btw?

Edit: http://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.ca/2016/08/retroavs-vs-analogue-nt-mini-comparison.html

The High Def NES Mod has a problem with an inordinate amount of speckling with some games and some consoles, but by using an FPGA in the Nt mini instead of a PPU, this should not be a problem. The accuracy of FDS expansion audio leaves something to be desired in the Nt mini until kevtris finds out more about how the FDS expansion audio works at the hardware level. The Nt mini has an option to route cartridge-generated expansion audio to the analog outputs or through an ADC.
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So it's good that (unlike the Hi-Def NES I think) you can at least do ADC cartridge audio to route real hardware FDS audio through, but the FPGA implementation is still bugged due to lack of documenation/understanding of how it works. Which is one of the main things that would hold back FPGA reimplementations, and why I worry for less popular systems than NES that it might not be all that.
 
davidwhangchoi said:
the original NT is interesting but i guess i can't get over the emulation part of the mini.
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davidwhangchoi said:
maybe it's the 400+ price tag and emulation associated with it... i don't know, but i still stare at the NT mini.
ZX
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NT Mini and other FPGA consoles aren't software emulation.

SheepyGuy said:
Has anyone tried the NT Mini's FDS sound reproduction btw?
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If the implementation is like Kevtris' HiDef NES mod (it should be identical), it's accurate. Edit: nvm then. It sounds good/adequate to my ears unlike the Everdrive's FDS audio.
 
davidwhangchoi said:
oh darn... thanks! i guess i'll stick to buying original hardware ATM, the original NT is interesting but i guess i can't get over the emulation part of the mini.
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As others also have pointed out, there is no emulation part to the NT Mini. The FPGA chips have the identical same output measurings as an original NES, games display and play correctly without any lag. I own an original NT and played it extensively, the new NT Mini I have for just a week and I don't see any performance differences in games AT ALL. In addition the thing has way more scanline, video and audio options, and I'm not even talking about the surprise built-in everdrive function and Master System, Game Gear, Colecovision, .... support through the Kevtris jailbreak firmware. I really count the NT Mini as one of the best things that came on the Retro HD scene since the Framemeister!
 
TheWraith said:
As others also have pointed out, there is no emulation part to the NT Mini. The FPGA chips have the identical same output measurings as an original NES, games display and play correctly without any lag. I own an original NT and played it extensively, the new NT Mini I have for just a week and I don't see any performance differences in games AT ALL. In addition the thing has way more scanline, video and audio options, and I'm not even talking about the surprise built-in everdrive function and Master System, Game Gear, Colecovision, .... support through the Kevtris jailbreak firmware. I really count the NT Mini as one of the best things that came on the Retro HD scene since the Framemeister!
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question: why did you get the mini if you already had the original NT?
 
davidwhangchoi said:
question: why did you get the mini if you already had the original NT?
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The Original NT is basically a NES that outputs (beautifully) to HDMI, but there are limits on the scaling and its options: Only 4x, or 4.5x height is possible in 1080p, and scanlines in 1080p didn't look that great.

The mini amongst many other features allows for 5x height with great customisable scanlines, PAL support, possible save states (in the future), both HDMI and RGB out,.... Those are the futures that sold it to me to pre-order it, the rom support and other 8-bit system support isjust a huge extra icing on the cake.
 
TheWraith said:
The Original NT is basically a NES that outputs (beautifully) to HDMI, but there are limits on the scaling and its options: Only 4x, or 4.5x height is possible in 1080p, and scanlines in 1080p didn't look that great.

The mini amongst many other features allows for 5x height with great customisable scanlines, PAL support, possible save states (in the future), both HDMI and RGB out,.... Those are the futures that sold it to me to pre-order it, the rom support and other 8-bit system support isjust a huge extra icing on the cake.
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thanks, i better research it more.i'm playing on a BVM i haven't really thought about scanlines and scaling. i think i'm casually looking into it but not deep enough to make a correct judgement. i appreciate the info =)
 
Hey everyone, I've been playing with my PS2 lately get ng to get through my PS1/2 backlog and I recently bought an optical audio cable so I can hook it up to my surround sound receiver. Problem is that whenever there is any silence the receiver stops processing. It comes back on as soon as there is sound but it's not instant so it results in sound getting cut. Its extremely noticeable in SOTN whenever I transition to new areas and when there is a cutscene since all the background noise/music stops and the beginning of Alucard's sentences get cut. It also results in there being choppy sound in the start menu since the audio s constantly starting and stopping whenever I move the cursor.

I was wondering if anyone else had a similar problem? Is it my receiver? Cable? PS2?
 
Fallen92 said:
Hey everyone, I've been playing with my PS2 lately get ng to get through my PS1/2 backlog and I recently bought an optical audio cable so I can hook it up to my surround sound receiver. Problem is that whenever there is any silence the receiver stops processing. It comes back on as soon as there is sound but it's not instant so it results in sound getting cut. Its extremely noticeable in SOTN whenever I transition to new areas and when there is a cutscene since all the background noise/music stops and the beginning of Alucard's sentences get cut. It also results in there being choppy sound in the start menu since the audio s constantly starting and stopping whenever I move the cursor.

I was wondering if anyone else had a similar problem? Is it my receiver? Cable? PS2?
Click to expand...

What's the receiver? I had that issue with an Emotiva preamp that I had for a while. I hated that fucking thing because of it, and few things made me happier than giving it the heave-ho. After beating the shit out of it.


Errr... but it's possible that it's a quirk inherent to the way your receiver handles shit.
 
Is there a list of good modders?

I want to mod a couple of consoles, and I want to buy and AV Famicom and mod it. But every modder site I visited was out of stock.
 
Chacranajxy said:
What's the receiver? I had that issue with an Emotiva preamp that I had for a while. I hated that fucking thing because of it, and few things made me happier than giving it the heave-ho. After beating the shit out of it.


Errr... but it's possible that it's a quirk inherent to the way your receiver handles shit.
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It's a Sony STR-K700. It seems like it is my receiver, it doesn't seem to like the way PS2 outputs sound at least because it works perfectly with my PS4.
 
Really having Framemeister issues lately - ordered a replacement in the mean time (while they are still for sale).

It's as if the HDMI port is failing. Only very specific cables work with it - otherwise I get severe artefacts (green dots, flashing lines).

With the right cables, it seems to work fine, but most HDMI cables require you to use 720p or 480p mode now. It's like the HDMI signal is extremely weak.

Very frustrating now.
 
I've spent the last 2 days going back and forth whether to sell my Framemeister and just play everything on my PVM. I could use that money to pay for the Switch and Zelda (or an MVS). I just don't want to regret it later down the road when they are hard to get.
 
Kiddy Dong said:
Adam Koralik did a review of the OSSC, oh boy. Can anyone vouch for his criticisms or is he just spreading misinformation again like he usually does with retro AV tech?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd-F0apJZ6s
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The issue he had with DC VGA on OSSC sounds to me like either a bad HDMI cable or port. Him straight up blaming the OSSC was... jumping the gun.

He's flat out wrong about about component on the framemeister and it just sounds like he doesn't know what the horizontal and vertical scaling settings do on the FM... "Makes everything muddy." ??? He also says that 480i looked better on OSSC than the FM...
Michael-What-the-office-10400786-400-226.gif
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That's pretty much impossible unless you're not using the FM's full motion adaptive deinterlacing (which OSSC lacks).

All this he claims without any comparisons. He has all these toys and has no idea what he's doing with them. lol
 
Galdelico said:
I'll watch it later - I don't follow the dude for the reason you stated - but according to some comments, he didn't even know how to use the OSSC properly. :/
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Yes, I am using mine with a jap megadrive model 1 and it works great

Talking about the OSSC there's a new firmware out

Firmware v0.76 is finally out now:

* Line4x and Line5x implemented
* 960i and 1080i support added
* Dedicated line multiplication settings for each mode group
* Passthru option added for all mode groups
* 4:3 / 8:7 aspect selection for 256×240 mode
* Overlay mask placement fixed
* Mask brightness control added
* Fixed phase shift issue on optimized modes
* Increased IR receiver tolerance
 
I just have to figure out how to update the firmware, but I'm pretty sure I need to buy an SD card or something to do it. So it might be a few days before I test it out.
 
dark10x said:
Really having Framemeister issues lately - ordered a replacement in the mean time (while they are still for sale).

It's as if the HDMI port is failing. Only very specific cables work with it - otherwise I get severe artefacts (green dots, flashing lines).

With the right cables, it seems to work fine, but most HDMI cables require you to use 720p or 480p mode now. It's like the HDMI signal is extremely weak.

Very frustrating now.
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Might be the HDMI jack solder is coming loose. Someone on here had a problem that it snapped off the first day they had it.
 
KS8000 and OSSC owners, this 0.76 update seemed to give some compatibility!

My TV is handling this resolution as 1440x240, which is pretty insane.

This may be heresy on this board, but on this TV I prefer the vertical scanlines. It provides the smoothing of horizontal without being so big.

Some Saturn and MVS pics:

zAHC3A0.jpg

Cqg73So.jpg


2vq0MGK.jpg

zMyErdq.jpg

jcJHkdR.jpg
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I'm still testing this out, getting snowed in again, so plenty of time to play mad scientist with this!
 
cyborgnumberblue said:
My TV is handling this resolution as 1440x240, which is pretty insane.
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That's 240p HDMI. The older standard is 720x240, the 1440 one just has more samples. I think there's a newer one that is 2880x240 as well.

That must be what this means:
* Passthru option added for all mode groups
Click to expand...

240p HDMI looks really, really good in my experience. It just might not be supported by some TVs and especially monitors.
 
NES/240p games on Wii look great with Line5x and scanlines. Lines looked bad at 960p (480p Line2x)... razor thin and weird.

I set them to 31% strength. Much higher and the scanlines look too strong, the screen gets dims and strangely desaturated. At a third strength they more closely resemble PVM scanlines.

nAkiYObl.jpg


3yFDSDl.gif
 
SheepyGuy said:
That's 240p HDMI. The older standard is 720x240, the 1440 one just has more samples. I think there's a newer one that is 2880x240 as well.

That must be what this means:


240p HDMI looks really, really good in my experience. It just might not be supported by some TVs and especially monitors.
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Wouldn't the reverse be true?

I was under the impression monitors would be more apt to handle funky resolutions, like the line triple, quad, quint outputs from the OSSC, rather than a consumer TV?
 
Mega said:
NES/240p games on Wii look great with Line5x and scanlines. Lines looked bad at 960p (480p Line2x)... razor thin and weird.

I set them to 31% strength. Much higher and the scanlines look too strong, the screen gets dims and strangely desaturated. At a third strength they more closely resemble PVM scanlines.

nAkiYObl.jpg


3yFDSDl.gif
Click to expand...

those looks great! Which TV/monitor are you using?
 
cyborgnumberblue said:
Wouldn't the reverse be true?

I was under the impression monitors would be more apt to handle funky resolutions, like the line triple, quad, quint outputs from the OSSC, rather than a consumer TV?
Click to expand...

Uhhh monitors of today handle all sorts of resolutions that computers are expected to put out. So you could for example give them 1024x640 or whatever other weird computer like resolution. Ones that have HDMI must support 480p, 720p, and 1080p (and 4k on whatever revision has that) plus whatever required other stuff, but 240p and 480i are optional.

I've never heard of a TV that doesn't do 480i over HDMI but 240p just seems to be up to what the engineering team wanted, but it's in all the HDMI compliance/testing devices so my assumption is that pretty much all newish TVs should do it, I just have no evidence or research to back that up.
 
My modded xbox died on me inside my homemade arcade cabinet. I just gave away the 27 inch sony crt tv.

My project was dissambling the cabinet and make a bartop with an 22lcd tv ( takes less space and weighs much less)

I was wondering what route to go

Buy a secondhand xbox console? ( can find them for around 50) use coinops

Raspberry pie 3? Around 50 euro for pie and 16gb card
I guess using retropie

Old laptop/ mini pc?
Hyperspin mame combo?

Currently my arcade buttons and joysticks are connected with an ultimarc ipac (first edition)
 
.76 compatibility seems all over the place. Need to find a compatible SD card to flash mine and see if I can finally get my monitor to stop taking everything with such ease.
 
Unless I'm missing a something, a small annoyance has been introduced to the 0.76 firmware. The selected input resets to AV1 RGBS (button 1) every time you power back on. I'm using the OSSC with a Wii so I have to manually select AV2 YpPbPr (button 2). This setting doesn't save/load with the profile.

On a related note, it occurred to me that line-doubled 480p games should have scanlines enabled. I've had a mental lapse in thinking having them on is erasing half the picture information, but no, that's silly. I'm only erasing the doubled lines that cause huge, unnatural jaggies. At exactly 960p, the lines are very thin: bad for 240p content, but perfect for 480p. The effect looks identical to the thin scanlines of a 480p/HD CRT and creates depth and natural AA. It also masks the Wii's blurriness and artifacts (ditto for 240p games in Line5X). This may become my new favorite way to play Wii games.

No scanlines vs scanlines (click to view at full size and see the difference)

kWgaw7ih.jpg
t7MHkEPh.jpg


1KXJzvih.jpg
jUINrWEh.jpg


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hFin6xxh.jpg
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You can change the default input in the settings menu.

Oh my bad, the issue is it doesn't save. Haven't seen that elsewhere. Hopefully I can confirm when I get home in 30 minutes or so.
 
NormalFish said:
You can change the default input in the settings menu.

Oh my bad, the issue is it doesn't save. Haven't seen that elsewhere. Hopefully I can confirm when I get home in 30 minutes or so.
Click to expand...

Ok, disregard my complaint above, I didn't try setting the default input. I'm sure that's what I did the first time around when I got the OSSC and simply forgot this time. Thanks for the tip.
 
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