I soo don't wanna derail the thread as anti-Tayyip Turk but can't help myself here we go.
First you are equating ethnicity to national identity. For example ethnically I'm Turkic / Slavic (Bosnian) / Georgian yet my nationality is Turkish thus I'm %100 a Turk and perfectly happy to be one. The oath does not say "how great it is to be ethnically Turkic", it says "how happy is the one who says I'm Turk (as in the part of the Turkish nation) Ziya Gokalp also known as the "father of Turkish Nationalism" was ethnically a Kurd so was the 2nd president İsmet İnönü (the on after Ataturk), yet they were hardcore Turkish nationalists Mindblown yet? if not I'll advise you to check news of recently passed Levon Panos Dabağyan, an ethnic armenian who is also one the main founders & ideologues of ultra nationalist "Nationalist Movement" Party in Turkey. Confused let me explain.
The term "Turk" meant Muslim subject of the Ottoman Empire before, a Turkic christian orthodox was not considered a Turk, he did belong to the Orthodox Nation of Empire (millet). Turkish nationalists wanted to change that. They envisaged an inclusive type of nationalism (much like the American one) where anyone who pledge allegiance to the Turkish nation could claim to be a Turk regardless of their ethnic or religious background. That's why it says "happy who says that I'm a Turk" instead of "happy who is a Turk. Of course it did not work for everyone, of course it was a painful process but it did create the "Turkish Nation" as we understand today. And yes the oath you talk about was totally inspired by American Pledge of Allegiance.
not westernization but I see the ideals of enlightenment to be universal ones so in a way yes. And I didn't call him mahatma, I called him a "despot" and for a reason.
No shop has ever had to have his poster so please stop with your exaggerations and about the insults maybe you remember Turkey of 10-20 years ago but now hurling insults at him and slandering his name has become the favorite pastime of every Islamist in the country.
So he & his party ruled from 1923-1938 but he is directly responsible for massacres of 1915, okay dude.
He is the guy who said My people are going to learn the principles of democracy the dictates of truth and the teachings of science" but he had nothing democratic in his political thought, okay. He worked his whole life to turn Turkey in to an unitary nation-state based on the principles of secular democracy but he had nothing democratic in praxis, rolleyey.gif
so why not just show me the quote of Hitler saying "My biggest inspiration for my political ideology is Ataturk" This way I can tell my neo-nazi friends that the biggest inspiration for their ideology was an oriental muslim man named Mustapha Qamal. Again the paper you linked & Ihrig's book which the paper quotes only has 4 tangential quotes him praising Ataturk as a nationalist & secularist yet somehow he is his biggest inspiration for Hitler my final rolleyes ookaaay. and I'm done with you.
Turkish embassy statement:
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I'm guessing you don't know the nature of that outlet.
Are you fucking kidding me?
edit: source?
The term "Turk" meant Muslim subject of the Ottoman Empire before, a Turkic christian orthodox was not considered a Turk, he did belong to the Orthodox Nation of Empire (millet). Turkish nationalists wanted to change that. They envisaged an inclusive type of nationalism (much like the American one) where anyone who pledge allegiance to the Turkish nation could claim to be a Turk regardless of their ethnic or religious background. That's why it says "happy who says that I'm a Turk" instead of "happy who is a Turk. Of course it did not work for everyone, of course it was a painful process but it did create the "Turkish Nation" as we understand today. And yes the oath you talk about was totally inspired by American Pledge of Allegiance.
not westernization but I see the ideals of enlightenment to be universal ones so in a way yes. And I didn't call him mahatma, I called him a "despot" and for a reason.
No shop has ever had to have his poster so please stop with your exaggerations and about the insults maybe you remember Turkey of 10-20 years ago but now hurling insults at him and slandering his name has become the favorite pastime of every Islamist in the country.
So he & his party ruled from 1923-1938 but he is directly responsible for massacres of 1915, okay dude.
He is the guy who said ”My people are going to learn the principles of democracy the dictates of truth and the teachings of science" but he had nothing democratic in his political thought, okay. He worked his whole life to turn Turkey in to an unitary nation-state based on the principles of secular democracy but he had nothing democratic in praxis, rolleyey.gif
so why not just show me the quote of Hitler saying "My biggest inspiration for my political ideology is Ataturk" This way I can tell my neo-nazi friends that the biggest inspiration for their ideology was an oriental muslim man named Mustapha Qamal. Again the paper you linked & Ihrig's book which the paper quotes only has 4 tangential quotes him praising Ataturk as a nationalist & secularist yet somehow he is his biggest inspiration for Hitler my final rolleyes ookaaay. and I'm done with you.
Just saw a friend post this to their FB. Pretty crazy.
Reading through here a bit it sounds like the police are still investigating exactly what happened... in the embassy statement above, who are the PKK? are they U.S. citizens?
Kurdish separatist group in Turkey. Responsible for lots of terrorism but also a red herring thrown out by Erdogan (and Pigeon) every time his toast gets cold. Along with boogeyman Gulen.
Ok, I understand that line of reference now.No, please read again. I am saying exactly the same thing about what have occured to me with zionists about what is occurring to those PKK supporters. It was to point out that if i am supporting violence against them, i would be supporting violence against myself.
Let's get to that line of thinking in a sec.This is the problem with this issue. A lot of people don't know shit about Turkey or kurds politics. They just see kurds are the good guys and that it. Some hollywood level of political analysis. So if i am saying that those people are not simply "kurds" but YPG/PKK supporters, for those ignorants i am just being anti-kurdish or supporting violence.
So for you that demonstration has been straight YPG/PKK (since you insist PKK = YPG), and no other possible motives for Americans of Kurdish origin to be upset with the visit of Erdogan other than being PKK supporters?If the title or the OP would specify that it was a pro-PKK/YPG demonstration, i wouldn't have said nothing except condemning it.
Ok, I understand that line of reference now.
Let's get to that line of thinking in a sec.
So for you that demonstration has been straight YPG/PKK (since you insist PKK = YPG), and no other possible motives for Americans of Kurdish origin to be upset with the visit of Erdogan other than being PKK supporters?
How about this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/04/turkey-arrests-pro-kurdish-party-leaders-mps
..You know, your line of thinking reminds me very much of the official explanation of the Sublime Porte re the Armenian genocide at the time: 'Those Armenians were all Russian sympathizers, so we needed to take measures against them.'
Seems we might have common ground for discussion then..You're just not following the discussion from the beginning. Of course any turks/kurds/human being could find one thousand reason to protest against Erdogan.
Enemy of the State, I see. Not a Gulenist, mind you, but still a formidable enemy..The issue here are the post signs who were displayed during the demonstration who make reference to a particular HDP member who is linked directly with PYD and PKK [It's actually the same man your article from the guardian make reference, Selahattin Demirtaş].
I'm not questioning the links between organisations - surely one Kurdish organisation will have some form of links or interactions with another Kurdish organisation, especially at times of political turmoil. I'm questioning your equating of the organisations. You seem to operate under keyword matches - 'He said PKK!' That's a typical MO for a witch hunt. Which is what, low and behold, Erdogan has been doing for a while now - tagging opponents with various 'enemy of the state' monikers and persecuting them based on that.The links between PYD[YPG] and PKK are evident, i already posted many articles and pictures that show this, the reference of PKK leadership within PYD are everywhere. They are not the same organization, but the YPG is a PKK offshoot and they are allies.
My apologies, I'm not a particularly clever person. But you posts surely come out as apologetic of the recent shameful events. Re Armenian genocide - you're imagining things, I just said your line of reasoning reminded me of those.Of course, since you don't have anything clever to say, let's just throw the accusation of being like an apologist of the armenian genocide. It's free and nobody will bother.
I swear, you better not be talking about me.Bit surprised to see there's a choking woman defence force but also a bit not surprised.
I don't understand how it's not justified to speak out against PKK. I am not imagining thing when you see clear support of PKK linked personality from those demonstrators. I wonder how everybody would felt if it was a demonstration showing support for AQ/ISIS-linked personnality. Well in Turkey, most people consider PKK to be as worst as AQ/ISIS because they suffered a lot from constant terrorist attack from PKK or offshots.
I don't personally equate both group fundamentally. I think that ISIS and Al Qaida is a terrorist group by essence while PKK is a nationalist group who use terrorists methods. They can accept political compromise and could be a rational political actor in the future who could abandon terrorists means, unlike AQ/ISIS. But i totally understand why a turk could not make that distinction.
More problematic would be their stalinist ideology for the people who would have to live under their rules.
Enemy of the State, I see. Not a Gulenist, mind you, but still a formidable enemy..
I'm not questioning the links between organisations - surely one Kurdish organisation will have some form of links or interactions with another Kurdish organisation, especially at times of political turmoil. I'm questioning your equating of the organisations. You seem to operate under keyword matches - 'He said PKK!' That's a typical MO for a witch hunt. Which is what, low and behold, Erdogan has been doing for a while now - tagging opponents with various 'enemy of the state' monikers and prosecuting them based on that.
My apologies, I'm not a particularly clever person. But you posts surely come out as apologetic of the recent shameful events. Re Armenian genocide - you're imagining things, I just said your line of reasoning reminded me of those.
Whoa that's a fuckin brawl. WTF?
Red flags are pro Erdogan. Other side are Kurdish YPG. Suits and armed are Erdogan's thugs or embassy personnel.Yeah, I have no idea who is who and what is going on...lol.
Need some kind of clarification/play by play.
Wait, wait, Demirtas is HDP. You keep insisting that since YPG (and by transitivity - PKK) supporters demand his release he must be a PKK leader? I mean, if HDP - a parliamentary Turkish party, is yet another 'Kurdish terrorist organisation', then which are those Kurdish political organisations within Turkey that you'd consider non-terrorist?He was not an enemy of the state until 2014 and the YPG took over of an important part of Syria which lead to an escalation which lead to PKK resuming the war and the end of the peace process. That show you the absurdity of politics sometime. The same goes for Gulen.
Wait, how are most Kurdish organisations at war with PKK/YPG, if Demirtas - a prominent figure from the most popular Kurdish party in Turky - HDP, is also very popular among PKK/YPG people, as per all those evidences you've presented in this thread? Do Kurds also hate / are at war with HDP? You have me confused.Most of kurdish organisation hate /are in war with PKK/YPG.
Hasn't this been going for years now?You have a general kurdish hate in Turkey right now and politicians (especially nationalists) would use the recent attack of PKK outshot in Turkey to fuel their racist agendas.
You still manage to get me confused, though.I am not at all equating all kurdish organization under the same umbrella.
Here we totally agree. What is an ever bigger shame, in my eyes, is the support Erdogan is still getting by some Turks, and by some non-Turk Muslims. Erdogan is dragging Turkish society to the bottom, and idiots are still cheering him. Dark times ahead indeed.I am in favor of Kurdish autonomy and i was very happy with the peace process. I think PKK saw a historical opportunity with the syrian civil war and they took it. Or maybe Erdogan feared that they will take it so he striked first: In any case it's a big shame.
Frankly, the only support those protesters have demonstrated to me is for a political leader persecuted by Erdogan.I am not at all, and i said it various times. I said that those suited men were thugs and should be prosecuted/banned from the USA. But GAF sometime cannot take nuance so if i am pointing out that their groups are showing support to terrorist/dictatorship affiliated groups, i become an apologist of those acts.
You think the split between Erdogan and Gulen brought to the current state of AKP being a clearly reactionary party? Perhaps Gulen was the progressive force in that alliance?I do think that AKP was a good thing for Turkey and the region until 2014 and the irruption of the syrian civil war into turkish politics, without cleaning Erdogan responsability in this. Worst and more worrying is the situation now since the failed coup attempt. It's pretty sad and i think things will be getting worst.
Wait, wait, Demirtas is HDP. You keep insisting that since YPG (and by transitivity - PKK) supporters demand his release he must be a PKK leader? I mean, if HDP - a parliamentary Turkish party, is yet another 'Kurdish terrorist organisation', then which are those Kurdish political organisations within Turkey that you'd consider non-terrorist?
You seems to separate turkish nationalism in a modern nation state with turkish as a racial concept which is absurd. If it was so inclusive, why the kurdish language was banned until recently in school and public tv ?
American don't designate a race or a language, it's not comparable at all with the turkish identity. Maybe it was in the Ottoman Empire but not in kemalism.
I'm willing to concede here that Kemalism led to the erasure of the cultures of ethnicities in law, and I would not disagree with the right of speaking Kurdish in school, but the problem here is not with Kemalism- Kemalism pushed the Turkish identity because the unity that came from that sense of shared nationality was needed for the Turkish War of Independence.
It's why progressive western discourse is falling flat in front of the contradiction of kemalism. From one hand they support secularism, from the other kurds. The problem is that kemalism enforce secularism AND oppression against kurds and everything not turkish.
It's getting clearly worst if we bring the armenian genocide into the equation, most kemalists don't even recognize it and blame it on the armenians themselves.
Kemalism encourages to take pride in one's nation, culture and history. Obviously, as a Turk, he'd frame those statements from a Turkish perspective. That's not "oppressing everything not Turkish".
I don't deny that other legislation might have caused oppression. But that's not what Kemalism's foundation is. It's pride in being Turkish, which would obviously be supported by a Turkish government.
The ideals of enlightenment have a genealogy and a geography. When Ataturk banned the turkish hat and muslim veil and force westernization IN CLOTHING, how it is universal enlightenment ? How changing the arabic script to the latin one is a universal move ? Is latin script more close to human essence ?
Hoo boy. This is my favorite out of the fucking bunch. "Universal enlightenment" does not mean "enlightenment that is not associated with culture and history in any way", it means "enlightenment that is far-reaching and permanent".
-Clothing was changed in order to promote a more modern appearance, and to progress in general modernization of society. It both enforced hats in governmental positions (sensible to me) and stressed that the Turkish society do the same (which I can see as being problematic).
-Religious garments were banned in order to unite the divided members of the Turkish society. The official reason given also includes the motive that this would keep religion strictly an internal matter of conscience.
-The Latin alphabet was chosen over the Arabic one for several reasons:
1. It's used by European countries- this makes communication, cultural/scientific exchange, language learning a lot easier.
2. The Arabic alphabet was phonetically unsuitable for Turkish.
3. Learning to read and write in Arabic was so difficult that the general literacy ratio pre-Alphabet Reform is generally cited as 3% for men and 0.7% for women (this is general knowledge). This, of course, greatly constrained education and the development of culture. The alphabet was changed to make the Turkish society more educated.
Various shopkeepers told me that in Istanbul in 2010.
Yes now thanks to God is different and you can hear a critical discourse against Ataturk legacy and character. It was near to impossible to find 10 years ago.
Yet thanks to your God, secularism and democracy are being undermined in this country day by day. Discourse about Atatürk's actions are not bringing about greater awareness of minorities and their important place in the Turkish society, they are only driving this country toward extremism and dictatorship. The negative aspects of Kemalism could be debated, but now is not the suitable time for that, when half the country is advocating for stripping secularism from governmental institutions and education. The positive effects of Kemalism are under attack in today's Turkey, and you are trying to portray that as a wonderful thing.
Also if you really want to see his implication in the same kind of act, you can read this. This armenian website call him the "consumer and finisher of the armenian genocide".
Reserving judgment of this one, my knowledge of history portrays Cilicia and the others mentioned as wars and not massacres. I'd need to look that one up. (Likewise for the Armenian genocide as a whole- I'd like sources advocating for either side regarding the genocide.)
...Says the person ignorant of the fact that Atatürk himself promoted the creation of other parties after the declaration of independence.
If you speak about democracy but impose a one-party state dictatorship, what does that make you ?
Oh, by the way, no one shits on your precious Islam here because of ISIS using it as the excuse for terrorism and war. Likewise, Hitler's thoughts don't have any inherent meaning with regards to the legitimacy of Atatürk's intentions or methods.
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Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan watches as protesters are attacked in Washington, D.C.
I JUST heard about this on The Daily Show, HOW is this not bigger news!?
I JUST heard about this on The Daily Show, HOW is this not bigger news!?
Erdogans OWN bodyguards ran up and started beating American protesters, in America, on American soil.
HOW is he not banned forever from the country!? This should be treated more or less as a attack on American citizens by another country.
Looks like he was to enter the embassy and stayed in his car until security gave clearance.Erdogan was watching the attack.
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2017-05-18/erdogan-watched-attack-on-protesters-in-dc
I JUST heard about this on The Daily Show, HOW is this not bigger news!?
Erdogans OWN bodyguards ran up and started beating American protesters, in America, on American soil.
HOW is he not banned forever from the country!? This should be treated more or less as a attack on American citizens by another country.
Gave clearance that the fight that he ordered was over with.Looks like he was to enter the embassy and stayed in his car until security gave clearance.
Is your point that the people demonstrating had it coming? Because I can see little this has to do with protesters being nearly stomped to death by Turkish security on American soil.
Unlike turkey, America is still a functioning democracy. Even with trump. They all weren't pkk.. and even if they were all. This isn't turkey. You can't just beat up dissenters or suppress opposing ideas.
It's funny, considering that's exactly what the left is doing across college campuses in this country. Carry on...
It's funny, considering that's exactly what the left is doing across college campuses in this country. Carry on...
It's funny, considering that's exactly what the left is doing across college campuses in this country. Carry on...
Oh no! Junior?!?
🙄
The idea is that this is a violation of America's national sovereignty. It isn't about "beating up protesters", it's about *a political figure beating up protesters who are citizens of another country.*
It's funny, considering that's exactly what the left is doing across college campuses in this country. Carry on...
Are you fucking kidding me?
edit: source?
-Clothing was changed in order to promote a more modern appearance, and to progress in general modernization of society. It both enforced hats in governmental positions (sensible to me) and stressed that the Turkish society do the same (which I can see as being problematic).
-Religious garments were banned in order to unite the divided members of the Turkish society. The official reason given also includes the motive that this would keep religion strictly an internal matter of conscience.
Did I claim otherwise?I won't reply to the rest because you just showed that you didn't followed the discussion since the beginning..
The value I see is that people make claims, those raise legitimate questions, which either get reasonably answered or not. Most discussions work like that these days...and honestly i don't think there is any value in following this discussion.
And yet you keep bringing up his picture - the picture of one of HDP leaders, at a YPG gathering. BTW, do you also have transcripts of what he said there?Demirtas is not ONLY hdp. I don't consider HDP to be a terrorist organization at all.
Nope, not simple at all. In fact, you keep confusing me - is Demirtas nobody in HDP? If you keep bringing him up in the context of YPG (which you seem to consider equal to PKK), then how come you don't consider HDP, I quote, 'linked with terrorist organisations'? How does that logic work?I consider that every kurdish organization that are not linked with terrorists organizations or don't undertake terrorists actions to be valuable and noble organization, simple no?
See?BUT he supported PKK and YPG and made political rally for them.
I can assure you it hasn't even crossed my mind you'd post fake pictures in this thread.![]()
Another picture, in case you call it fake:
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Erdogan was watching the attack.
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2017-05-18/erdogan-watched-attack-on-protesters-in-dc
Also, when someone enters a thread by stating "I'm not defending the beating of protesters, but..." you can bet your ass they know exactly what they're intending to achieve, as evidenced by half the thread now being about an unrelated matter.
I do. You didn't answer my question, though.Do you even know who is the man with the mustache on the panel behind Demirtas ?
I do. You didn't answer my question, though.
This show you exactly the problem of kemalists elites in Turkey and why they are fundamentally in conflict with the vast majority of their own society:
Modernity could be defined as a set of universal values. Like for instance: reign of the law, freedom of thought, scientific method as a mean of civilizacional advancement...
But it doesn't have anything to with a particular alphabet or a particular way of dressing. European dresses are not more modern than turkish, african or egyptian dresses. They were invented and designated in a specific geographical space, that is western Europe.
Thinking that by wearing those cloths, Turkey will be a modern country, just consist of "aping" the western culture hoping that, magically, something will occur. It's western fetishism and not modernism.
In the same way, prohibiting all religious garment is not a secular move. It's a totalitarian move. Secularism don't state that religion should be kept lock in the personal conscience. Totalitarianism does. It's more close to what Hitler, Mao or Stalin did to any kind of dissent, political or religious, than to what secularism mean in western democracy like France or the USA. Secularism is not about inventing a monolithic national character, it's about preserving the equilibrium between social cohesiveness and liberty of belief. In the same manner, Ataturk had islam totally nationalized and have created a kind of state-clergy to modify the religion as he willed. So again, nothing to do with secularism or modernity but totalitarianism and authoritarianism, while using religion when it was usefull.
Banning all women wear hijab to superior education (like it was the case until 2011) is not a way to "unify society", it's a authoritarian move to designate who can pretend to modernity and who cannot.
It's why you have a highly divided turkey today. Because a big part of the kemalist elite spent the last 70 years spitting on everything not-in-line with kemalist line of thought. So yeah, i am glad things are changing, and you can see that the old Kemalist party is now presenting a female candidate with an hijab. The same woman they would have oppressed and excluded from the public sphere a decade from now.
And yes, Kemalism is racist as it's core and does old a racialist conception of turkishness.
Another piece, from Mustafa Akyol, a turkish liberal, about this issue and how Ataturk himself was racist and consider turks to be a superior race, as official scientific endeavour was made to prove that Turks were racially superior and went so far as showing a blue-eyed peasant in order to make that "demonstration".
And more on this matter, about the politics of ethnic/religious cleansing of the kemalists.
Childs in Turkey have to learn, to this day, this Ataturk declaration:
"However, every Turkish child still grows up memorizing Atatürks 1927 address to the youth, which speaks of the noble blood in your veins and how happy the one who says he is a Turk."
So Turkishness is not about nationality, but about blood.
Why shouldn't I? Aside from you equating them (because of pictures of Apo) I haven't heard anything sensible from you on subject.And you keep questioning the kind of relationship PKK and YPG have?
Nope. He can have all the sympathy for those groups. I was asking you how it works in your head that you consider YGP terrorist, while HDP is a-ok, with a YGP-sympathizing leader. I'm still quite curious to hear your rationale.And you keep questioning the fact that this HDP leader have, at least, sympathy for those groups?
No, I'm asking you which Turkish Kurdish organisations you consider non-terrorist. You formally said HDP, but I have my doubts about that, for reasons I expressed above.And worst, you still asking if i consider all kurdish organization terrorists ?